Supplementation during physical exercise and BCAA's
- Thread starter Felixo
- Start date
mr.cooper69
Legend
It is hype.
Clickster
Board Sponsor
Agreed. I have never noticed much benefit if any at all while using anything Intra.
bigswole30
Active member
I have a slightly different opinion then most posted above. I find supplementing with BCAA's to be very beneficial during training. Increased endurance, better recovery and less DOMS.
MidniteGunner
Member
This ^
mr.cooper69
Legend
Try a large bolus pre-training and post-training vs intraworkout. Intraworkout supplementation for strength training and hypertrophy is rather paradoxical, given leucine's MOA.
Piston Honda
Well-known member
mr.cooper69 said:
Is it just as simple as it needs time to digest? To me it seems like common sense. Any energy boost people get intra is more likely due to something else in the BCAA blend.
mr.cooper69
Legend
Nope. Leucine acts on the "anabolic" signaling cascade via a spike in blood levels. Taking BCAAs intraworkout results in a "flat-line" of blood leucine levels as you sip over the course of 1-2 hours.
USPlabsRep
Board Sponsor
If you are sipping it, you are losing. Hence the reason for the higher leucine content in ModernBCAA..
Young Gotti
Well-known member
i agree with this.....bcaa's are extremely benefical during training even at low doses.....if you can afford them or find them cheap enough, they are always a good idea to throw into the mix during training
Young Gotti
Well-known member
a few studies i've seen shows you don't need much leuicine to be anti-catabolistic (word?)....now you may not get huge but you don't need to totally overdose bcaas for results like many think...even though overdosing may provide significant improvements over low dosages....just isn't the only way you have to go about your bcaa intake
uvawahoowa
Well-known member
Young Gotti said:
Anti-catabolic is the word you're looking for
Young Gotti
Well-known member
haha yeah thats it...english was never a major of mine
bioman
Well-known member
IMO, better sipped throughout the day between meals. Coop is right in that drinking during a workout (1hour?) is not going to give you significant blood levels to warrant the whole intra WO hype. Drinking it throughout the day, particularly post workout (or preWO), can aid in keeping you anabolic. I notice much greater recovery from this albeit I do not eat like a bodybuilder.
jbryand101b
Banned
mr.cooper69 said:
Eh, I feel differently.
mr.cooper69
Legend
You are an athlete brah; not the same as a recreational BBer eating his pre and post workout meals. Also, the key word was "during" physical exercise. BCAAs are great actually...if taken preworkout or postworkout in a single bolus.
jbryand101b
Banned
mr.cooper69 said:
Lol, I'm just pokin at you brah.
strategicmove
Legend
Personally, I consider BCAAs useful before, during, and after workouts. Here is a piece I wrote in our forum (usplabsdirect.com), justifying not only such use of BCAAs, but also the strong leucing bias (8:1:1 ratio) in ModernBCAA:
"ModernBCAA is designed to exploit the fundamental role that BCAAs, in particular, l-leucine, play in the enhancement of anabolic signalling, initiation translation, and muscle protein synthesis. There are several aspects of the "science behind the formulation", and a lot of these center around the unique role that leucine, the chief BCAA and EAA, plays in the initiation and mediation of anabolic signalling and muscle protein synthesis. In what follows, I will comment on some of these aspects.
One reason for the usual recommendation of protein ingestion (with some carbohydrates) post-exercise, for instance, is that exercise not only depletes glycogen stores, but also leads to a negative protein balance and ultimate reduction in mTOR signalling (via increased AMPK expression) and muscle protein synthesis. Herein comes the advantage of consuming a leucine-enriched BCAA compex such as ModernBCAA. To put it simply, BCAAs, particularly leucine, stimulate anabolic signalling through a variety of molecular mechanisms that are both mTOR-dependent and mTOR-independent. Although mechanical strain and growth factors can also activate mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin), leucine remains one of the most potent activators of mTOR. The mTOR signalling pathway has a wide variety of functions that include the regulation of cell proliferation, cell growth, hypertrophy, and muscle protein synthesis. By activating mTOR, leucine triggers translation initiation and translational control. Translation initiation involves a chain of events that are required to ensure ribosomal complex assembly and the binding of target mRNA. So, besides being an important constituent of protein, leucine acts as a critical regulator of translation initiation of muscle protein synthesis; it is also an important regulator of the insulin phosphoinositol 3-kinase (PI3K) signalling cascade and glycemic regulation (including glucose homeostasis); it also acts as an important nitrogen donor for the production of alanine and glutamine (one reason that justifies a leucine-enriched BCAA complex such as ModernBCAA, as leucine is involved in the synthesis of other substrates important in anabolic processes); and it also acts as an important inhibitor of muscle protein degradation.
Still on PI3K, leucine, the most anabolic amino acid around, is a powerful regulator of the insulin phosphoinositol 3-kinase (PI3-K) signal cascade. Growth factors such as insulin and IGF-1 can also induce PI3K activation independently of leucine. PI3K activation usually ignites several downstream signalling events involved in cell differentiation and growth, with the serine/threonine kinase Akt/PKB (protein kinase B), being a downstream effector of PI3K. Akt/PKB phosphorylates glycogen synthase kinase 3 (GSK3), ultimately inducing an increase in muscle protein synthesis via enhanced action of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (eIF2B). This implies that BCAAs can penetrate cells and initiate translation, independent of insulin, thus further underlining the key significance of BCAAs, especially leucine, in anabolic-anticatabolic processes. This also justifies the leucine-bias of the ModernBCAA formula.
So, in the context of the foregoing, it is not only important, but also very beneficial, to consume some leucine-enriched BCAA complex such as ModernBCAA intra-workout as well as post-workout, to take full advantage of the exercise-induced anabolic stimulus, by trigerring anabolic signalling, cell growth and hypertrophy, multiple-mechanism protein synthesis, as well as eNOS (endothelial nitric oxide synthase, also known as NOS3) signalling pathways. eNOS, as you know, is one isoform of the NOS enzyme that is responsible for producing nitric oxide and modulating vascular signals (including vasodilation and the "pump").
We have already established that intra- and post-exercise dosing of a leucine-enriched BCAA complex, such as ModernBCAA, are useful, both to counteract the exercise-induced transient inhibition in protein synthesis during exercise (itself due to the activation of AMPK caused by lowered cellular status reflected by decreased ATP/AMP ratio and glycogen depletion. AMPK activation leads to phosphorylation of the so-called tuberous sclerosis complex 2 (TSC2), an upstream negative mediator of the Ras homolog enriched in brain (Rheb) and mTOR), as well as to take advantage of ModernBCAA's positive effect on muscle protein synthesis and anabolic recovery, both via mTOR-dependent (for instance, positive upstream mTOR effectors such as Rheb, positive downstream mediators such as ribosomal proteins and kinases (p70S6k and rpS6), as well as appropriate eukaryotic initiation and elongation factors), and mTOR-independent pathways (for instance, eEF2 and eIF4G). These are molecular mechanisms that are fundamentally linked to leucine, and as such justify its significance in ModernBCAA's formulation.
BCAAs can also be useful during an endurance exercise such as cardio. In particular, exercise itself leads to a considerable increase in BCAA oxidation, implying a need to replenish BCAA concentrations. Furthermore, BCAAs can help ameliorate the fall in muscle protein synthesis (MPS) during endurance exercise. This drop in MPS is initiated by a fall in the ATP/ADP ratio, leading to activation of AMPK, and the suppression of mTOR signalling and mRNA translation. So, BCAAs not only support MPS, but also inhibit skeletal muscle protein degradation (catabolism). Furthermore, endurance exercise triggers an inhibition of protein chain elongation in an intensity-dependent manner. This occurs via a calcium-induced activation of a specific calmodulin-dependent protein kinase, an event that can be countered by BCAA ingestion. Beyond these, BCAAs reduce the incidence of central fatigue syndrome during exercise. A key cause of this central fatigue is the over expression of tryptophan in the brain, leading to a high concentration of the neurotransmitter S-hydroxytryptamine in some neurons. As both tryptophan and BCAAs are shuttled into the brain by the so-called large amino-acid transporter, the consumption of BCAAs pre- or during cardio acts to limit the uptake of tryptophan into the brain, leading to less brain fatigue. And so on. Hence, BCAAs can be useful during cardio, with leucine playing a central role.
Furthermore, as is well known, resistance exercise provokes a reduction in adenosine triphosphate (ATP), while increasing the cellular concentration of adenosine monophosphate (AMP), and depleting glycogen stores. The increase in AMP and decrease in glycogen concentrations correspond to a reduction in cellular energy status. This lower energy status induces the activation of AMPK, leading to the phosphorylation of upstream mediators of mTOR, ultimately leading to reduced mTOR signalling and its direct impact (negative) on muscle protein synthesis. The consumption of BCAAs, however, may act, via mechanisms upstream and downstream of mTOR, to boost muscle protein synthesis. Put differently, the consumption of BCAAs during resistance exercise may work to counter the exercise-induced transient negative impact on protein synthesis caused by resistance exercise.
These are, to my mind, pertinent explanations, not only of the central importance of BCAAs in molecular mechanisms relating to anabolic signalling, but also of the dominant role that leucine plays in this complex orchestration of upstream and downstream mechanisms relating to protein synthesis and anabolism, clearly justifying leucine's bias in our ModernBCAA formula.
"
"ModernBCAA is designed to exploit the fundamental role that BCAAs, in particular, l-leucine, play in the enhancement of anabolic signalling, initiation translation, and muscle protein synthesis. There are several aspects of the "science behind the formulation", and a lot of these center around the unique role that leucine, the chief BCAA and EAA, plays in the initiation and mediation of anabolic signalling and muscle protein synthesis. In what follows, I will comment on some of these aspects.
One reason for the usual recommendation of protein ingestion (with some carbohydrates) post-exercise, for instance, is that exercise not only depletes glycogen stores, but also leads to a negative protein balance and ultimate reduction in mTOR signalling (via increased AMPK expression) and muscle protein synthesis. Herein comes the advantage of consuming a leucine-enriched BCAA compex such as ModernBCAA. To put it simply, BCAAs, particularly leucine, stimulate anabolic signalling through a variety of molecular mechanisms that are both mTOR-dependent and mTOR-independent. Although mechanical strain and growth factors can also activate mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin), leucine remains one of the most potent activators of mTOR. The mTOR signalling pathway has a wide variety of functions that include the regulation of cell proliferation, cell growth, hypertrophy, and muscle protein synthesis. By activating mTOR, leucine triggers translation initiation and translational control. Translation initiation involves a chain of events that are required to ensure ribosomal complex assembly and the binding of target mRNA. So, besides being an important constituent of protein, leucine acts as a critical regulator of translation initiation of muscle protein synthesis; it is also an important regulator of the insulin phosphoinositol 3-kinase (PI3K) signalling cascade and glycemic regulation (including glucose homeostasis); it also acts as an important nitrogen donor for the production of alanine and glutamine (one reason that justifies a leucine-enriched BCAA complex such as ModernBCAA, as leucine is involved in the synthesis of other substrates important in anabolic processes); and it also acts as an important inhibitor of muscle protein degradation.
Still on PI3K, leucine, the most anabolic amino acid around, is a powerful regulator of the insulin phosphoinositol 3-kinase (PI3-K) signal cascade. Growth factors such as insulin and IGF-1 can also induce PI3K activation independently of leucine. PI3K activation usually ignites several downstream signalling events involved in cell differentiation and growth, with the serine/threonine kinase Akt/PKB (protein kinase B), being a downstream effector of PI3K. Akt/PKB phosphorylates glycogen synthase kinase 3 (GSK3), ultimately inducing an increase in muscle protein synthesis via enhanced action of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (eIF2B). This implies that BCAAs can penetrate cells and initiate translation, independent of insulin, thus further underlining the key significance of BCAAs, especially leucine, in anabolic-anticatabolic processes. This also justifies the leucine-bias of the ModernBCAA formula.
So, in the context of the foregoing, it is not only important, but also very beneficial, to consume some leucine-enriched BCAA complex such as ModernBCAA intra-workout as well as post-workout, to take full advantage of the exercise-induced anabolic stimulus, by trigerring anabolic signalling, cell growth and hypertrophy, multiple-mechanism protein synthesis, as well as eNOS (endothelial nitric oxide synthase, also known as NOS3) signalling pathways. eNOS, as you know, is one isoform of the NOS enzyme that is responsible for producing nitric oxide and modulating vascular signals (including vasodilation and the "pump").
We have already established that intra- and post-exercise dosing of a leucine-enriched BCAA complex, such as ModernBCAA, are useful, both to counteract the exercise-induced transient inhibition in protein synthesis during exercise (itself due to the activation of AMPK caused by lowered cellular status reflected by decreased ATP/AMP ratio and glycogen depletion. AMPK activation leads to phosphorylation of the so-called tuberous sclerosis complex 2 (TSC2), an upstream negative mediator of the Ras homolog enriched in brain (Rheb) and mTOR), as well as to take advantage of ModernBCAA's positive effect on muscle protein synthesis and anabolic recovery, both via mTOR-dependent (for instance, positive upstream mTOR effectors such as Rheb, positive downstream mediators such as ribosomal proteins and kinases (p70S6k and rpS6), as well as appropriate eukaryotic initiation and elongation factors), and mTOR-independent pathways (for instance, eEF2 and eIF4G). These are molecular mechanisms that are fundamentally linked to leucine, and as such justify its significance in ModernBCAA's formulation.
BCAAs can also be useful during an endurance exercise such as cardio. In particular, exercise itself leads to a considerable increase in BCAA oxidation, implying a need to replenish BCAA concentrations. Furthermore, BCAAs can help ameliorate the fall in muscle protein synthesis (MPS) during endurance exercise. This drop in MPS is initiated by a fall in the ATP/ADP ratio, leading to activation of AMPK, and the suppression of mTOR signalling and mRNA translation. So, BCAAs not only support MPS, but also inhibit skeletal muscle protein degradation (catabolism). Furthermore, endurance exercise triggers an inhibition of protein chain elongation in an intensity-dependent manner. This occurs via a calcium-induced activation of a specific calmodulin-dependent protein kinase, an event that can be countered by BCAA ingestion. Beyond these, BCAAs reduce the incidence of central fatigue syndrome during exercise. A key cause of this central fatigue is the over expression of tryptophan in the brain, leading to a high concentration of the neurotransmitter S-hydroxytryptamine in some neurons. As both tryptophan and BCAAs are shuttled into the brain by the so-called large amino-acid transporter, the consumption of BCAAs pre- or during cardio acts to limit the uptake of tryptophan into the brain, leading to less brain fatigue. And so on. Hence, BCAAs can be useful during cardio, with leucine playing a central role.
Furthermore, as is well known, resistance exercise provokes a reduction in adenosine triphosphate (ATP), while increasing the cellular concentration of adenosine monophosphate (AMP), and depleting glycogen stores. The increase in AMP and decrease in glycogen concentrations correspond to a reduction in cellular energy status. This lower energy status induces the activation of AMPK, leading to the phosphorylation of upstream mediators of mTOR, ultimately leading to reduced mTOR signalling and its direct impact (negative) on muscle protein synthesis. The consumption of BCAAs, however, may act, via mechanisms upstream and downstream of mTOR, to boost muscle protein synthesis. Put differently, the consumption of BCAAs during resistance exercise may work to counter the exercise-induced transient negative impact on protein synthesis caused by resistance exercise.
These are, to my mind, pertinent explanations, not only of the central importance of BCAAs in molecular mechanisms relating to anabolic signalling, but also of the dominant role that leucine plays in this complex orchestration of upstream and downstream mechanisms relating to protein synthesis and anabolism, clearly justifying leucine's bias in our ModernBCAA formula.
"
John Smeton
Legend
Bcaa's help a ton with recovery. Layne Norton has some good stuff on bcaa's as he did his phd in them. Furthermore, read the book "championship bodybuilding" by Chris Aceto and there are numerous studies showing how athletes benefit from bcaa's
I can tell you from experience as I have taken up to 400 grams a protein a day without bcaa's, which was probally overkill, esp since I was natty at the time and have been bodybuilding for over ten years when I take in bcaa's I keep more muscle. yes pre and post are good times to take, intra is very good, in my opinion, because your tearing muscle down, and it keeps bcaa's in a constant state. I use them when i get up at night, one before breakfast, pre, intra, post and between meals-I have been taking bcaa's for two years now.
they are esp beneficial when on a big caloric deficit like getting ready for a show
I can tell you from experience as I have taken up to 400 grams a protein a day without bcaa's, which was probally overkill, esp since I was natty at the time and have been bodybuilding for over ten years when I take in bcaa's I keep more muscle. yes pre and post are good times to take, intra is very good, in my opinion, because your tearing muscle down, and it keeps bcaa's in a constant state. I use them when i get up at night, one before breakfast, pre, intra, post and between meals-I have been taking bcaa's for two years now.
they are esp beneficial when on a big caloric deficit like getting ready for a show
Felixo
New member
Aren't protein, or at least certain types like whey naturally rich in BCAA's on their own? At least that's what it says on the tube of my Micro Whey (Reflex) or there's more to that?
I used to sip on BCAA's intra but became slightly worried about the amount of sweeteners and other additives that I choke on throughout the day from other products so I started this thread and stopped taking it intra. I'm saying this honestly now, one thing I've noticed straight away is a decrease in performance. Sessions were getting longer, pumps dropped and sometimes I felt like I'm going to throw the towel it's so frustrating. Now I would like someone to explain to me why this happened. Is it because of all the extra energy from sugary things in the product that I was being able to push harder and better? I used Scivation Xtend if that's of any help and normally I would have a protein shake half an hour before my session, sip on Scivation throughout and have a Creapure and After glow (Biorhythm) afterwards, followed by a meal when I get home about an hour later or so.
uvawahoowa
Well-known member
Felixo said:
To my knowledge there is nothing with sugar or any other calories in modern bcaa except for the actual bcaas
Felixo
New member
I was referring to Scivation Xtend which I've been using at the time. I have no previous experience with modern bcaa yet.
808shredded
Active member
Thanks strat. Very informative info.
mr.cooper69
Legend
Can I get a tldr on the article?
John Smeton
Legend
of course proteins have bcaa's in them. the three amino acids that stimulate muscle growth are bcaa's luecine isoluecine and valine, bcaa's are isolated versions where you dont have to take in the other aminos and also keeping calories, and protein grams lower.
I have no explanation what happened to you. I can only vouch for myself in saying bcaa's have helped me dramatically.
vicesoldier
Active member
Good stuff in here might want to check out protocol which we already have endurance racers that do spartan races, tough mudders, ragnars and triathlons sip while racing. But also military peeps deployed and back home while doing 12+ mile ruck marches
SweetLou321
Well-known member
I usually use them pre and post in single doses. Sometimes ill drink some carbs during a long 3 hr ME session tho when I know things will get tough. I use to drink them during but after reading coopers posts I changed it. Im a competitive pler, idk if that changes my needs tho lol
wrathchild281
Member
If ur bcaa sup has citrilliline I would take it preworkout. To be effective bcaa totals grams per day need to be higher than ppl may think.
mr.cooper69
Legend
Are you insulin resistant?
wrathchild281
Member
Hey no issues at all. To be beneficial to a wothehile degree u need more than the 5 grams ur common whey shake will offer.
wrathchild281
Member
So studies shown that leucine in 10g dose preworkout had significant benefits with workout intensity/energy and recovery. Most bcaa supps has the 3 main aminos combined with typical total ranges in 7 to 10 grams. I believe 20 grams total per day is the beginning of the optimal doses. That's including the bcaas in most common whey shakes. So in easy terms 2 to 3 servings from a combo bcaa supp. I take for example 2 servings of xtend in a gallon jug refrigerated an use it o pour into my cups or smaller bottles and sip throughout day with intentions to drink one gallon of bcaa mix. In addition I take one other straight serving one hour pre workout for the added benefits of citrilline. 2 grams arginine and my stim preworkout supp has some beta alinine. This is a staple for my regiment and It never seems to fail. Diet and plenty hydration is also just as important for pumps and vascularity. Sorry off topic just throwing some personal recommendations out there.
John Smeton
Legend
I would separate them from whole foods and shakes
I dose mine one scoop open awaking , in between meals -esp when Im cutting hard , on anabolics I use them more bc protein synthesis is much higher due to nitrogen retenion, pre intra and post workouts all the time, and if I get up at night two scoops