Subcutaneous Testosterone Injections Study

[Bungloid48]

my endo also has all of his patients injecting sub-q weekly with GREAT results. its the new trend in canada.

however, I'm too afraid to inject on my own and the past 2 injections were done by some clueless doc... he injected it into my arm. No pain or lumps but I think a good deal of the oil leaked out both times.

So I guess I should tell him to do it in the abdomen next time...

 

[Bungloid48]

Eh I guess I should man up and do it myself then!

Can anyone recommend what size needles I need to do it SubQ. I want to follow Dr. Shippen's protocol.

I'm a total newb.

 

[Diancecht]

Dr. John, I am sure you know this as well as anyone, but it annoys me to no end to hear that testosterone injections are problematic because they result in uneven levels of T. THAT'S BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO INJECT MORE OFTEN THAN ONCE A FORTNIGHT! When, and why, the hell did that become common practice for something with a 5-6 day half-life? They are simply injecting once T falls below baseline, instead of acknowledging the widespread anecdotal evidence showing that falling/rising levels are hell for patients. I am glad that you are one of the only docs who will inject EW. I am sure there could be benefit from injecting twice EW for patients who can self-administer, as well.

200mg EOW (for the IM) is almost certainly what they are talking about. I suppose the study is far less useful than it could have been now... who reviews these things before they go to trial?

EDIT: And yes, I actually have no idea how one would go about sticking a 23g needle into abdominal fat... do you go close to parallel to the surface to avoid stabbing your liver or god knows what else?

As a clinician I wonder about that two. The research shows that properly done test cyp given once per week achieves steady blood levels after the 3rd to 4th dose. The only reason I can see for once every two weeks is if they are trying to reduce the number of injections for patient compliance issues etc.

I use 180 IM in the glutes once weekly and get good results near the high end of normal. With Anastrazole .5 every two days the estradiol stays in the lower quartile.

So far (knock on wood) the symptoms that were significantly affecting me have resolved.

 

[JanSz]

Eh I guess I should man up and do it myself then!

Can anyone recommend what size needles I need to do it SubQ. I want to follow Dr. Shippen's protocol.

I'm a total newb.

I do E2D

day #1 T injection plus Liquidex, I use insuline syringe with cut out needle so I can have exact dose of LiquiDex (very important).

day #2 hcg 380iu

rinse and repeat.

For T and HCG I use
31ga 5/16" long needle 3/10cc syringe.
That is smallest available syringe.

I use donut area around navel, 6" outside diameter, 1.5" Dia around navel is newer used.

I do get tiny leak outs, if I hold in the needle about 30 sec after the shot is completed, usually there is no leakouts.

Blood analysis show that I am getting my planned amount of testosterone.

 

[aculpep]

I dont see how in the world you get T cyp in a 31g insulin syringe!? Even in the 25g it takes awhile to draw and shoot. I am trying to heat the oil next time and using a 27g.

I do E2D

day #1 T injection plus Liquidex, I use insuline syringe with cut out needle so I can have exact dose of LiquiDex (very important).

day #2 hcg 380iu

rinse and repeat.

For T and HCG I use
31ga 5/16" long needle 3/10cc syringe.
That is smallest available syringe.

I use donut area around navel, 6" outside diameter, 1.5" Dia around navel is newer used.

I do get tiny leak outs, if I hold in the needle about 30 sec after the shot is completed, usually there is no leakouts.

Blood analysis show that I am getting my planned amount of testosterone.

 

[JanSz]

I dont see how in the world you get T cyp in a 31g insulin syringe!? Even in the 25g it takes awhile to draw and shoot. I am trying to heat the oil next time and using a 27g.

It takes about 4 minutes.
After I put needle into rubber stop in the vial,
I hold vial in left hand, between palm, thumb and index finger,
tips of thumb and index finger hold the syringe.
I pull the plug down then hold the syringe down, then I read posts on this board to pass time. Recheck and pull plug some more. Then I make a subq shot around navel.
Been doing that way since I started T shots 6/19/07

 

[Bungloid48]

I think I'll get some 27g needles and some 30g just to gauge which ones work better. They're cheap anyway.

Do I also need drawing needles to take the test out of the vial? I am very new at this and I'd appreciate if someone could point me towards a comprehensive guide for all this.

Also, living in Canada, I assume they could probably supply me with free needles if need be?

FWIW, I only use T. No HCG.

 

[JanSz]

I think I'll get some 27g needles and some 30g just to gauge which ones work better. They're cheap anyway.

Do I also need drawing needles to take the test out of the vial? I am very new at this and I'd appreciate if someone could point me towards a comprehensive guide for all this.

Also, living in Canada, I assume they could probably supply me with free needles if need be?

FWIW, I only use T. No HCG.

No need for drawing needles, just take 31ga stick it thru rubber stop on the vial, pull the plunger, wait patiently.

It is really very easy.

If you need a extra kick, watch a movie or something.
Sticking with needles is about scar tissue biuld up, do not be a hero.

 

[Bungloid48]

just an update; got my second injection today.

SubQ in the abdomen. I forgot what size needle the nurse used but i DID NOT FEEL A *THING* AT ALL. it was great. none of the oil leaked out either.

the nurse was kind enough to teach me how to do it too so now i can just pick up some needles for free at the pharmacy and do this myself. rawk.

 

[wildfox]

As a clinician I wonder about that two. The research shows that properly done test cyp given once per week achieves steady blood levels after the 3rd to 4th dose. The only reason I can see for once every two weeks is if they are trying to reduce the number of injections for patient compliance issues etc.

I use 180 IM in the glutes once weekly and get good results near the high end of normal. With Anastrazole .5 every two days the estradiol stays in the lower quartile.

So far (knock on wood) the symptoms that were significantly affecting me have resolved.

Do you not feel a peak in two to three days after the injection, then a depressing lull by day 6 or 7, or do you feel rather "even" every day as far as mood, strength and libido are concerned?

 

[Diancecht]

Do you not feel a peak in two to three days after the injection, then a depressing lull by day 6 or 7, or do you feel rather "even" every day as far as mood, strength and libido are concerned?

No I dont feel any signficant difference. The research shows a fairly consistant blood level after the 4th or at most the 5th injection in test subjects. These studies were done with proper IM injections. (I have no idea of what changes would occur with sub Q). To change the levels you would simply adjust the dose and keep the same time interval. This is pretty much the standard way to work with the half life of the injection to achieve stable consistant blood levels whether its hormones, antiobiotics, narcotics etc.

Frankly in an individual not using IM injections with test there is a lot of daily variation depending upon activity, time of day, stress etc, etc. I doubt most people can tell during the day what their hormone level is. However if you a super dosing testosterone then there can be some europhia etc that relates to peaks in the product. I am talking here about maintaining blood levels at or near normal ranges.

Frankly giving IM shots every two days with a compound that has a 5-6 day half life doesnt make much sense from a pharmacologic basis in the same way giving such a injections 14 days apart doesnt make much sense. Its just a less than optimal use of such a compound. If you want to give injections more frequently then use one with a short half life such as two days and the reverse is true if you want to extend the period between injections. Ultimately the half lifes main impact is that the longer the half life the longer it takes to achieve a stable blood level. On the other hand the longer half life is going to create a more stable blood level. So pick what you want. Quick action or stable level. Then pick the injection that fits what you want and dose it appropriately.

A certain amount of psychological conditioning can also occur when one uses medications especially if they significantly affect how a person feels. Its well known for example that heroin addicts can often get some eurphoria just from popping the skin with a needle. Its the type of conditioning made famous with Pavlovs dogs etc. So if one associates a shot with feeling good that on its own can help the person feel good. If one expects to feel bad then likewise the same can occur.

 

[JanSz]

No I dont feel any signficant difference. The research shows a fairly consistant blood level after the 4th or at most the 5th injection in test subjects. These studies were done with proper IM injections. (I have no idea of what changes would occur with sub Q). To change the levels you would simply adjust the dose and keep the same time interval. This is pretty much the standard way to work with the half life of the injection to achieve stable consistant blood levels whether its hormones, antiobiotics, narcotics etc.

Frankly in an individual not using IM injections with test there is a lot of daily variation depending upon activity, time of day, stress etc, etc. I doubt most people can tell during the day what their hormone level is. However if you a super dosing testosterone then there can be some europhia etc that relates to peaks in the product. I am talking here about maintaining blood levels at or near normal ranges.

Frankly giving IM shots every two days with a compound that has a 5-6 day half life doesnt make much sense from a pharmacologic basis in the same way giving such a injections 14 days apart doesnt make much sense. Its just a less than optimal use of such a compound. If you want to give injections more frequently then use one with a short half life such as two days and the reverse is true if you want to extend the period between injections. Ultimately the half lifes main impact is that the longer the half life the longer it takes to achieve a stable blood level. On the other hand the longer half life is going to create a more stable blood level. So pick what you want. Quick action or stable level. Then pick the injection that fits what you want and dose it appropriately.

A certain amount of psychological conditioning can also occur when one uses medications especially if they significantly affect how a person feels. Its well known for example that heroin addicts can often get some eurphoria just from popping the skin with a needle. Its the type of conditioning made famous with Pavlovs dogs etc. So if one associates a shot with feeling good that on its own can help the person feel good. If one expects to feel bad then likewise the same can occur.

Loosing half of the T in 5 or 6 days is a lot.

IIRC there is some evidence that individuals with very low SHBG levels are more sensitive to TotalT serum levels.
They feel better on more frequent injections.

Look about it in dr Marianco's posts.

Attachment to my post #45
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html
===========================================

I have made little graphic study on
TotalTestosterone vs frequency

I think post #18 and below, attachments.

 

[wildfox]

As a clinician I wonder about that two. The research shows that properly done test cyp given once per week achieves steady blood levels after the 3rd to 4th dose. The only reason I can see for once every two weeks is if they are trying to reduce the number of injections for patient compliance issues etc.

I use 180 IM in the glutes once weekly and get good results near the high end of normal. With Anastrazole .5 every two days the estradiol stays in the lower quartile.

So far (knock on wood) the symptoms that were significantly affecting me have resolved.

I'd like to know more about this, because I was under the impression that more frequent injections give more consistent levels, but that's perhaps consistent levels of the esterified testerone and not the actual testosteron?

I'd like to read about this. The two doctors that have prescribed me with injectible testosterone always wanted to know how many days since the last injection in order to interpret the levels in the lab results, implying that they were not steady day to day, even after many weeks.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Diancecht]

Loosing half of the T in 5 or 6 days is a lot.

IIRC there is some evidence that individuals with very low SHBG levels are more sensitive to TotalT serum levels.
They feel better on more frequent injections.

Look about it in dr Marianco's posts.

Attachment to my post #45
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html
===========================================

I have made little graphic study on
TotalTestosterone vs frequency

I think post #18 and below, attachments.

However the question is are they feeling better because of the elevation of blood levels or because they expect to feel better from the shots. Placebo effect is very powerful.

Test cyp will cause less fluctuation than regular test but they all will have some fluctuation in levels. The question is whether it is signficant. In young males blood levels fluctuate by approx 35% throughout the day. In other words it could fluctuate for example between 900 and 600 in a 24 hr period. Thats the normal amt of variation and it goes unnoticed. This is due to the pulsatile nature of LH secretion throught the 24 hr period.

Injections done on a regular interval of course are not subject to the pulsatile secretion pattern seen in non medicated patients. So injections with a long acting compound (i.e. test cyp) given with appropriate dosing interval will have variations that are only a small fraction compared to whats normally seen physiologically. Assuming the person is using the same amt of total test per month (e.g. 800 mg) They can dose it weekly, biweekly, every of day, daily, hourly etc and of course the closer the intervals the less the fluctuation. The question is when are fluctuations realistically going to be noticable.

Personally I would rather not inject more often than is needed. For me once a week is fine. No harm however occuring doing it more frequently except the downsides and hastles of getting and giving the shots themselves. So if you like every other day its ok, I personally dont feel its necessary but if thats ok if thats what the patient and provider both agree on.

 

[JanSz]

However the question is are they feeling better because of the elevation of blood levels or because they expect to feel better from the shots. Placebo effect is very powerful.

Test cyp will cause less fluctuation than regular test but they all will have some fluctuation in levels. The question is whether it is signficant. In young males blood levels fluctuate by approx 35% throughout the day. In other words it could fluctuate for example between 900 and 600 in a 24 hr period. Thats the normal amt of variation and it goes unnoticed. This is due to the pulsatile nature of LH secretion throught the 24 hr period.

Injections done on a regular interval of course are not subject to the pulsatile secretion pattern seen in non medicated patients. So injections with a long acting compound (i.e. test cyp) given with appropriate dosing interval will have variations that are only a small fraction compared to whats normally seen physiologically. Assuming the person is using the same amt of total test per month (e.g. 800 mg) They can dose it weekly, biweekly, every of day, daily, hourly etc and of course the closer the intervals the less the fluctuation. The question is when are fluctuations realistically going to be noticable.

Personally I would rather not inject more often than is needed. For me once a week is fine. No harm however occuring doing it more frequently except the downsides and hastles of getting and giving the shots themselves. So if you like every other day its ok, I personally dont feel its necessary but if thats ok if thats what the patient and provider both agree on.

The basic system as deviced by dr John
is one T shot per week and two HCG shots at the two days before shot.

It works for majority, I think.
There is group that does not feel good at this frequency and feels better on more frequent injections.

Dr Marianco speculated that the low SHBG is the reason for need for more freequent shots.

I have used succesfully used E3D schedule, but on the day of the shot I had T +hcg+ Liquidex.

I noted fluctuations in consistency of my testicles.

Now I am doing E2D schedule, one day T shot the other day HCG.

It makes some difference, not really big.

 

[Diancecht]

The basic system as deviced by dr John
is one T shot per week and two HCG shots at the two days before shot.

It works for majority, I think.
There is group that does not feel good at this frequency and feels better on more frequent injections.

Dr Marianco speculated that the low SHBG is the reason for need for more freequent shots.

I have used succesfully used E3D schedule, but on the day of the shot I had T +hcg+ Liquidex.

I noted fluctuations in consistency of my testicles.

Now I am doing E2D schedule, one day T shot the other day HCG.

It makes some difference, not really big.

If it works best for you thats great. I am board certified and a Fellow in the American Board of Preventive Medicine. As such I have a different motives professionally in regards to HRT. To change government and insurance policy regarding HRT we need to extablish the economic benefits for such. If its true (as early research indicates) that HRT reduces the incidence and prevalence of cardiovascular disease and dementia secondary to Alzheimers, then HRT could have very significant application in reducing both the medical insurance costs and long term nursing home costs associated with these diseases. With our aging population litterly expected to double in the next 50 or so years this could have a dramatic impact on such costs. Not to mention the tremendous impact this could have to alleviate the suffering of these patients which is not the primary concern of govt and insurance companies.

Obviouslly I also have personal interest in it as well. So I am looking for the simplist protocols that can provide good protection and clinical benefits for the typical clinical presentation. This may not be optimal for some and for those one would have different protocols. So this is why I try to focus on as simple a protocol as possible. So I hope this explains why have a different approach.

 

[cpeil2]

So I am looking for the simplist protocols that can provide good protection and clinical benefits for the typical clinical presentation.

Recognizing that lots of guys don't have the time and the inclination to make their HRT into a science project, one of Dr. John's priorities has been to devise a protocol that is simple and effective for the largest number of people. Hence the once weekly injections of T and twice weekly injections of hCG.

 

[Marshall]

I think I'll get some 27g needles and some 30g just to gauge which ones work better. They're cheap anyway.

Do I also need drawing needles to take the test out of the vial? I am very new at this and I'd appreciate if someone could point me towards a comprehensive guide for all this.

Also, living in Canada, I assume they could probably supply me with free needles if need be?

FWIW, I only use T. No HCG.

Try a few different approaches to see what works best for you. I use a 20g to withdraw and then switch to 25g to inject IM. I've never tried to withdraw an oil-based solution with less than a 20g but I'm sure it would work fine. My only recommendation based on experience is make sure to do your research on injections if you're doing IM yourself. I thought I knew what I was doing until I stuck a 1 1/2" needle to far down on the side of my leg. The needle hit the nerve and you can only imagine the pain. That's one mistake I'll never make again. I've heard similar stories about IM in the glute. But SubQ is a breeze, just never tried it with T.

Good Luck!!

 

[JanSz]

If it works best for you thats great. I am board certified and a Fellow in the American Board of Preventive Medicine. As such I have a different motives professionally in regards to HRT. To change government and insurance policy regarding HRT we need to extablish the economic benefits for such. If its true (as early research indicates) that HRT reduces the incidence and prevalence of cardiovascular disease and dementia secondary to Alzheimers, then HRT could have very significant application in reducing both the medical insurance costs and long term nursing home costs associated with these diseases. With our aging population litterly expected to double in the next 50 or so years this could have a dramatic impact on such costs. Not to mention the tremendous impact this could have to alleviate the suffering of these patients which is not the primary concern of govt and insurance companies.

Obviouslly I also have personal interest in it as well. So I am looking for the simplist protocols that can provide good protection and clinical benefits for the typical clinical presentation. This may not be optimal for some and for those one would have different protocols. So this is why I try to focus on as simple a protocol as possible. So I hope this explains why have a different approach.

On this forum we come across people from different walks of life.
Some of them, with public service inclination could take task of explaining some of the misconceptions to the public.

HRT got most of (negative) attention, but it is small part of a quest for better health.

Cost analysis should be made that (most likely) would show that healtier people present less cost to society, aside from moral cosideration of keeping them healtier longer even if the life span is unchanged.

 

[cpeil2]

Try a few different approaches to see what works best for you. I use a 20g to withdraw and then switch to 25g to inject IM. I've never tried to withdraw an oil-based solution with less than a 20g but I'm sure it would work fine. My only recommendation based on experience is make sure to do your research on injections if you're doing IM yourself. I thought I knew what I was doing until I stuck a 1 1/2" needle to far down on the side of my leg. The needle hit the nerve and you can only imagine the pain. That's one mistake I'll never make again. I've heard similar stories about IM in the glute. But SubQ is a breeze, just never tried it with T.

Good Luck!!

Use the upper, outer quadrant of the glute for IM injections.

 

[Diancecht]

Try a few different approaches to see what works best for you. I use a 20g to withdraw and then switch to 25g to inject IM. I've never tried to withdraw an oil-based solution with less than a 20g but I'm sure it would work fine. My only recommendation based on experience is make sure to do your research on injections if you're doing IM yourself. I thought I knew what I was doing until I stuck a 1 1/2" needle to far down on the side of my leg. The needle hit the nerve and you can only imagine the pain. That's one mistake I'll never make again. I've heard similar stories about IM in the glute. But SubQ is a breeze, just never tried it with T.

Good Luck!!

The side of the thigh is well supplied with sensory nerves (such as the lateral femoral cutaneous nerve) which is why it is a primary target in Thai Boxing, MMA etc. As mentioned above the upper outer quadrant of the glute has been and continues to be the primary site for IM injections. Dont deviate from there because of the major nerves that run elsewhere (e.g. the sciatic nerve)in the glute . The glute also has the advantage of being such a large muscle mass there is relatively less discomfort due to relatively less distention of the muscle from the volume of the injection. Very large volumes may require injections of both glutes to reduce muscle soreness. This would not be expected to be necessary if you are using volumes such 1cc.

Also make the sure the muscle is completely relaxed during the injection, otherwise you will get increased discomfort upon insertion of the needle. As always use as aseptic a technique as possible. Reviewing it with your provider is recoommended.

 

[Diancecht]

The basic system as deviced by dr John
is one T shot per week and two HCG shots at the two days before shot.

It works for majority, I think.
There is group that does not feel good at this frequency and feels better on more frequent injections.

Dr Marianco speculated that the low SHBG is the reason for need for more freequent shots.

I have used succesfully used E3D schedule, but on the day of the shot I had T +hcg+ Liquidex.

I noted fluctuations in consistency of my testicles.

Now I am doing E2D schedule, one day T shot the other day HCG.

It makes some difference, not really big.

Do you by chance have a copy of Dr Crislers protocols. I didnt get a copy of them before they were removed. They looked like good rational protocols that are certainly worth considering.

 

[JanSz]

Do you by chance have a copy of Dr Crislers protocols. I didnt get a copy of them before they were removed. They looked like good rational protocols that are certainly worth considering.

It is someplace on this thread here:
Invalid Link Removed
=================================

Also you can visit good doctor right here:
Invalid Link Removed

the two publications:
TRT: A Recipe for Success
Invalid Link Removed
HCG Update
Invalid Link Removed

also his list of medications:
Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
===========================================
also since I have your attention;

I am expecting Pregnyl 1500iu, (two ampoules, powder + liquid)

I foresee problems that my not materialize.

How to open the ampoule if pre-scored?

if not prescored, where to get file that would do the job,
looking at my nail file, I do not think so.

I intend to do the whole job of mixing and injecting using either 5/16" or 1/2" needle.
To do that I need to break ampoule at the neck (not higher on top).
If the ampoule is already prescored at the top, is it safe or just plain doable, to score it additionally at the neck.

I called two pharmacies, they do not sell any tools or ampoule oppeners.

 

[Diancecht]

It is someplace on this thread here:
Invalid Link Removed
=================================

Also you can visit good doctor right here:
Invalid Link Removed

the two publications:
TRT: A Recipe for Success
Invalid Link Removed
HCG Update
Invalid Link Removed

also his list of medications:
Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
===========================================
also since I have your attention;

I am expecting Pregnyl 1500iu, (two ampoules, powder + liquid)

I foresee problems that my not materialize.

How to open the ampoule if pre-scored?

if not prescored, where to get file that would do the job,
looking at my nail file, I do not think so.

I intend to do the whole job of mixing and injecting using either 5/16" or 1/2" needle.
To do that I need to break ampoule at the neck (not higher on top).
If the ampoule is already prescored at the top, is it safe or just plain doable, to score it additionally at the neck.

I called two pharmacies, they do not sell any tools or ampoule oppeners.

In our chemistry courses we sometimes had to modify our glassware etc. We used files for that. Perhaps a place that supplies for glass blowers or a supplier of chemicals for schools. I remember them being a trianglure type of file. Usually just scoring it well will work. Of course when breakng it make sure you are wearing gloves or at least handle the ampule with a towel in case of glass shards etc.
Hope this helps.

 

[KSman]

The research shows that properly done test cyp given once per week achieves steady blood levels after the 3rd to 4th dose.

TT levels fall a lot during one week and that does not change after a number of doses. Many will feel this effect. Sinking T levels simply do not feel right. Whatever the research was, I doubt that the well being of the test subjects or patients was the objective.

Whatever was meant by steady blood levels is unknown and many would consider that statement false.

If that statement was true, that does not offer any explanation of why many find that they feel better with more frequent injections.

Many also find more frequent injections more comfortable than deep injections. There is more than one dimension to this.

 

[Diancecht]

TT levels fall a lot during one week and that does not change after a number of doses. Many will feel this effect. Sinking T levels simply do not feel right. Whatever the research was, I doubt that the well being of the test subjects or patients was the objective.

Whatever was meant by steady blood levels is unknown and many would consider that statement false.

If that statement was true, that does not offer any explanation of why many find that they feel better with more frequent injections.

Many also find more frequent injections more comfortable than deep injections. There is more than one dimension to this.

Variations are present with injections even if you did them twice daily. So the question is not if there are variations but rather are the variations significant. The blood levels seen with test cyp given weekly show variations that arent even a fraction of what is seen is normal physiology so the statement is not false. Most men cant tell what their test level is moment to moment. Perhaps you are an exception.

Regarding subq vs IM its your choice. I prefer IM because its a method has shown to be effective for a long time. Personally while I have no problem with needles the less I have to inject the better.

 

[JanSz]

TT levels fall a lot during one week and that does not change after a number of doses. Many will feel this effect. Sinking T levels simply do not feel right. Whatever the research was, I doubt that the well being of the test subjects or patients was the objective.
Whatever was meant by steady blood levels is unknown and many would consider that statement false.

If that statement was true, that does not offer any explanation of why many find that they feel better with more frequent injections.

Many also find more frequent injections more comfortable than deep injections. There is more than one dimension to this.

Variations are present with injections even if you did them twice daily. So the question is not if there are variations but rather are the variations significant. The blood levels seen with test cyp given weekly show variations that arent even a fraction of what is seen is normal physiology so the statement is not false. Most men cant tell what their test level is moment to moment. Perhaps you are an exception.

Regarding subq vs IM its your choice. I prefer IM because its a method has shown to be effective for a long time. Personally while I have no problem with needles the less I have to inject the better.

Once/week injections is an happy medium to satisfy most patients.

Less often injections are not succesfull at such a rate that should not be used.

Some men do not feel good on weekly injection and feel much better when the frequency is incresed.

It is hard to argue with KSman, he tried either way, he know what works for him. There are other people on this board with similar experience.
-------------------

IM vs SubQ issue I see from long range perspective.

Phil on this board have a hard time finding good place to inject due to scar tissue buidup after over decade of injections.

I expect smalles and shortest 31ga 5/16" long needle to produce less scar tissue during 20 or 40 years of remaning lifespan.

I know of at least two people who have devices implanted so they can accept frequent (intravenous) injections.

 

[tawney]

Dianececht said to KSMan:
"Variations are present with injections even if you did them twice daily. So the question is not if there are variations but rather are the variations significant. The blood levels seen with test cyp given weekly show variations that arent even a fraction of what is seen is normal physiology so the statement is not false. Most men cant tell what their test level is moment to moment. Perhaps you are an exception."

I disagree completely with this statement. This person is NOT an exception. I tried once weekly myself and you ABSOLUTELY CAN CAN CAN and DO feel a huge difference in your mood and energy level on day one than on day 7. the best way to explain it is this: day one is that great 2 beer buzz, and day 7 feels like 4 hours after you wake up from a 6 beer nap and feel like flatened dog sh*t.

an EOD or even a once every 3-4 day schedule smooths this problem out. PERIOD.

JMO- but I'm right, and so is KSMan! LOLOLOLOL

 

[KSman]

Variations are present with injections even if you did them twice daily. So the question is not if there are variations but rather are the variations significant. The blood levels seen with test cyp given weekly show variations that aren't even a fraction of what is seen is normal physiology so the statement is not false.

A young man would have high T levels.

Read this abstract:
Invalid Link Removed

"""
Also, each young man showed a significant circadian rhythm.
"""

There is a benefit to the accelerating T levels that one does not get from injections. Successful transdermals could do some of this. Perhaps a lower foundation of injected T and TD providing the variations could be a much better therapy. In the above study, they are measuring T that is not SHBG bound. That will be free T and weakly bound; mostly to albumin. Note that albumin levels drop with age for some and that increased SHBG bound T.

With the above in mind: Young men have the effects of T variations that, in this study, shown to be quite large. The levels go up and down, but the mean levels and patterns are quite steady day to day.

In contrast; with weekly injections, there is a T spike which leads to a spike in E2. T, E and SHBG will have a weekly pattern. Where normal young men have T going up and down. There is a spike of T, but many soon do not feel the injection spikes, perhaps from the E levels and spikes. What do guys feel? They feel T levels dropping rapidly day by day. Sinking T levels every day is not a good outcome. That is the problem.

The outcome can easily be E dominated unless E2 levels are controlled. That issue is common to any T delivery methods.

Hormone levels in the body are always changing. If your car was like this, it would go 20mph at times and 100mph at others. From an engineering process control point of view, this does not seem to be a proper control system. The body seems to need to see changing levels and if some hormones are steady state, cells and receptors can be come desensitized. While weekly injections create an adverse effect, dead steady levels are not ideal but many will find that this is better. The fact that many find that weekly injections work well for them, relative to how they felt before TRT; does not address the possibility that they might feel better with EOD injections.

 

[Nemesis RR]

On a weekly dose I feel better for 2 to 3 days but after that my energy starts to diminish quickly. That is why I take 2 doses a week. I rather have steady energy all week than crazy energy for only a few days.

 

[JanSz]

On a weekly dose I feel better for 2 to 3 days but after that my energy starts to diminish quickly. That is why I take 2 doses a week. I rather have steady energy all week than crazy energy for only a few days.

I use E2D schedule

day#1 T-shot, 0.25cc Anastrozole
day#2 500iu HCG, Methyl-B12 shot

For all my shots I use
Invalid Link Removed
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

 

[KSman]

On a weekly dose I feel better for 2 to 3 days but after that my energy starts to diminish quickly. That is why I take 2 doses a week. I rather have steady energy all week than crazy energy for only a few days.

I know the effect of the lift that you seek. For many who start TRT without anastrozole, the dead end of the week becomes longer and longer until it is 7 days long and you feel low and cannot feel anything stimulating from the injections at all. That is estrogen poisoning. I do not know to what degree that loss of lift happens guys who start TRT with 1mg/wk anastrozole.

I did not start with anastrozole and weekly injections were killing me. Added 250iu hCG EOD and that created a small constant baseline of T production. So my hole at the end of the week was not so deep. I then switched to T EOD and that leveled things off. There was not a loss of an injection lift... that was long gone, but there was never any feeling of dropping into a hole. Steady felt good.

Later, adding anastrozole was a profound change for the better. Too bad that I cannot talk about starting TRT with T+AI+hCG. I did get some guys that I worked with to get started on T+AI+hCG from the start.

 

[Nemesis RR]

I use E2D schedule

day#1 T-shot, 0.25cc Anastrozole
day#2 500iu HCG, Methyl-B12 shot

For all my shots I use
Invalid Link Removed
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

Is it a big ***** to get the cyp in that tiny needle? How long does it take to load up?

 

[KSman]

Is it a big ***** to get the cyp in that tiny needle? How long does it take to load up?

I use #29, .5ml, .5"

test cyp

I pull the plunger all the way back* and hang the vial and syringe. Come back after ~5 minutes and it is full, push out some gas and top it up. I load .56ml and shoot .14ml four times [98mg/wk].

It is slower if you are holding it and watching it.

* creates a vacuum and the benzyl alcohol boils out. The vapor merges back into the oil as filling completes. The -ve pressure in the syringe is then the vapour pressure of the alcohol. There will be somewhat less than a 14.7 PSI pressure differential when filling. When injecting a .3 or .5ml syringe with its small piston area creates huge pressures and injection times are very reasonable for these small amounts.

My syringe has a .15" bore. With that, 4 pounds of force creates 225 PSI. The pressure during loading is unknown. But lets say that it is 14PSI. The pressure when injecting is then 16 time greater then when loading. The 4 pounds pressure is a guess, but one can apply substantial force if avoiding the plunger shaft buckling.

 

[JanSz]

I use #29, .5ml, .5"

test cyp

I pull the plunger all the way back* and hang the vial and syringe. Come back after ~5 minutes and it is full, push out some gas and top it up. I load .56ml and shoot .14ml four times [98mg/wk].

It is slower if you are holding it and watching it.

* creates a vacuum and the benzyl alcohol boils out. The vapor merges back into the oil as filling completes. The -ve pressure in the syringe is then the vapour pressure of the alcohol. There will be somewhat less than a 14.7 PSI pressure differential when filling. When injecting a .3 or .5ml syringe with its small piston area creates huge pressures and injection times are very reasonable for these small amounts.

My syringe has a .15" bore. With that, 4 pounds of force creates 225 PSI. The pressure during loading is unknown. But lets say that it is 14PSI. The pressure when injecting is then 16 time greater then when loading. The 4 pounds pressure is a guess, but one can apply substantial force if avoiding the plunger shaft buckling.

Good for you.
I was thinking of something like that.
Sometimes plunger comes back.

Describe your contraption, if any, when you are hanging vial with syringe in it.
Or, better, post picture of it.
.
.

 

[KSman]

Good for you.
I was thinking of something like that.
Sometimes plunger comes back.

Describe your contraption, if any, when you are hanging vial with syringe in it.
Or, better, post picture of it.
.
.

Very high tech! My wife has two tallish indentical baskets on the bathroom counter. I place them side by side and the edges support the vial.

 

[biglibido]

All these problems about IM and SQ injections will be forever gone when you use this:

Invalid Link Removed

Easy as breeze, and painfree!

Anybody interested in getting one, PM me.

BigLibido

 

[Zero Tolerance]

I PMd you. I'll be a guinea pig.. But what about injecting into a vein? How would you know until it's too late?

All these problems about IM and SQ injections will be forever gone when you use this:

Invalid Link Removed

Easy as breeze, and painfree!

Anybody interested in getting one, PM me.

BigLibido

 

[biglibido]

I have been using it for awhile. Havent hit with any nerve problem yet.

Perhaps you should direct the question to the company.

BigLibido

 

[Zero Tolerance]

Have you been using it with oil based injectables? It's easy to believe how this could work great with water based injectables - but oils are a little more difficult to understand...

I have been using it for awhile. Havent hit with any nerve problem yet.

Perhaps you should direct the question to the company.

BigLibido

 

[Zero Tolerance]

What I'm saying is.. You know how you pull back to make sure you don't see any blood in the vial? If you do, you have to re-inject because you don't want to inject into a vein. With this, there'd be no way of knowing. I'd like some thoughts on this from anyone who'd be willing to share them.

I have been using it for awhile. Havent hit with any nerve problem yet.

Perhaps you should direct the question to the company.

BigLibido

 

[KSman]

All these problems about IM and SQ injections will be forever gone when you use this:

Invalid Link Removed

Easy as breeze, and painfree!

Anybody interested in getting one, PM me.

BigLibido

It probably would destroy peptide hormones, hCG, hCG, insulin, IGF-1 etc.

Vaccines are bacterial or viral fragments, does not matter if they are further broken.

The viscosity of oil based steroids would spoil the fluid dynamics.

 

[biglibido]

KS and ZT,

You can direct all your queries to Pharmajet.

They would be helpful to answer.

As for my own experience, I have been using it for peptides like HGH and CJC-1295, and test.

I don't seem to have any problems.


BigLibido

 

[KSman]

KS and ZT,

You can direct all your queries to Pharmajet.

They would be helpful to answer.

As for my own experience, I have been using it for peptides like HGH and CJC-1295, and test.

I don't seem to have any problems.


BigLibido

You can find a lot of comments on the WWW about not jeting water into thGH when reconstituting, shaking hGH or loading into syringes with violent flow rates.

This speaks specifically to this problem:
Do Protein Molecules Unfold in a Simple Shear Flow?
Invalid Link Removed

The above models flow as laminar. With these needless injection systems, the flows may be turbulent.

"""This in turn requires a very large driving pressure gradient ~4ηv/R2 ≈ 4 × 109 Pa m−1 = 580 psi/mm """

I have a manufacturing client who makes devices of this type that create pressures of around 30,000 PSI. The subject device here is also very high pressure. These devices are the most severe example of shear flows that can be found in use.

We are left guessing. However, the problem is easily avoided.

There are some interesting details here, but nothing about pressures or velocities.

The effectiveness of vaccines delivered this way is from [increase] cellular damage that creates inflamation that aids the immune reaction to the injection. Some vaccines now contain chemical or biological additives that increase immune response. Adding some other agent that will trigger the immune system will increase the exposure of the immune system to the vaccines target pathogen.

 

[JanSz]

All these problems about IM and SQ injections will be forever gone when you use this:


Easy as breeze, and painfree!

Anybody interested in getting one, PM me.

BigLibido

I pay $25.95 for 100 BD insuline syringes with needles.
Invalid Link Removed

I can get easy Touch for $13.99 for a box of 100.


How much this contraption cost?
.
.

 

[KSman]

I pay $25.95 for 100 BD insuline syringes with needles.
Invalid Link Removed

I can get easy Touch for $13.99 for a box of 100.


How much this contraption cost?
.
.

$12.60 at Wal-Mart or Sam's

 

[biglibido]

Well, here is another cheaper alternative to PharmaJet:

Invalid Link Removed

Obviously, these are for needle-phobic.

BigLibido

 

[biglibido]

I have to add that the old way of injecting, is still the rites of passage for hardcore guys.

Not necessarily becos of the cost, more of the gungho thingy.

We all know IM injections is always not a breeze...

Different strokes for different folks, is all I can say for now.

Later,

BigLibido

 

[Zero Tolerance]

I just contacted the company asking what procedure is done to avoid injecting the liquid into a vein. With regular needles, we aspirate to make sure no blood makes it's way into the vial. I don't know what the alternative method would be with the Pharmajet product. I hope to have a response shortly...

 

[JanSz]

I have been using it for awhile. Havent hit with any nerve problem yet.

Perhaps you should direct the question to the company.

BigLibido

What is that you are injecting?
Have you been doing blood tests while employing this device, any conclussions?

I am interested in injecting
testosterone
HCG
B12
.
.