RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Yeah I think 25mg/day clomid would be plenty. Maybe start at 12.5 and if you notice ball shrinkage adjust up from there. Var is easy on the HTPA
Strongest product that won’t cause shutdown
- Thread starter Wildcat528
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SARMS
Member
Would you recommend Tbol for a first cycle for someone over what age?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Tbol would be a great first cycle. I would run it with trest, test, or at least clomid. Can be ran by itself too but you may start experiencing low testosterone symptoms. The general consensus is 25 years or older for anabolic compounds, but I don't really buy into it. I know tons of guys that have been cycling since 16 or so and they seem to recover fine. Not that I recommend it though, because it's hard to say how much damage you are doing to your reproductive system and you may want to err on the side of caution.
brundel
Board Sponsor
I know some people will suggest running anavar or even low dose dianabol during PCT but this is not the time to do this.
Your goal is to get the testes working and anavar and dianabol will both suppress you even at low doses. Its counter productive.
Clomid, Maybe an AI like exemestane.
No steroids.
Wildcat528
Active member
Thanks for the insight and advice man, I really appreciate it for sure.
SARMS
Member
Yeah I would definitely run it with a test base, most likely test. Still I wonder how you think sarms like RAD140 and LGD compare for side effects with beginner anabolics like Anavar and Tbol? I mean, do you think there is more suppression with those sarms than easier going steroids? Yup I agree man, I have friends who have run Anadrol at 19 and their HPTA is fine.. But you never know. I'd worry about being hypogonadal by the time I'm 30 haha. Even with a serm in pct, there's a chance of permanent damage. Don't you think?
Jinsun
Well-known member
I would still advise you to have some sort of a test base at hand. Like test prop, to get e2 and dht levels quickly up if you get shutt down.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I think, if you can avoid shutdown by using a SERM then your chances of HTPA damage are minimized. I think the damage occurs while you are shut down. The SERM thing seems to work for some but not for others though.
Wildcat528
Active member
Is that likely to occur if I’m on 25% the Anavar dose of some and I’m running 25-50mg clomid ED?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
He tested the SERM on cycle theory and it didn't work for him (nolva not clomid) so he may be a little biased. But if you have the funds it cant hurt to have a little test on hand just in case. I am pretty certain though that the clomid will keep your HTPA up and running.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Not biased at all. In fact I think there is a strong chance it will work. It might just depend on the amount of time he will be running var. Suppression will probably occur, but gradually over time. 25mg var is not alot. It didn't work for me.bc I was (am) on test.
I suggested the prop just as a safety measure. It's really cheap so why not have it at hand...
I suggested the prop just as a safety measure. It's really cheap so why not have it at hand...
mikeymike85
Well-known member
Chicks take 25mg Var dude, that is a waste considering the cost. If you arent going to run 50/60-100mg then don't bother. I've ran 75mg Var with DMZ and sides were non-existant besides horrible shin pumps
Jinsun
Well-known member
If ran 3x longer then a normal cycle it's not a waste. But just running it for 4 to 6 weeks... yeah that would be a waste. 25mg for 2 or 3 months is what I would do.
Wildcat528
Active member
Yeah that was my thought process. Obviously 4 weeks @25mg would be a waste of money and time. But over 2-3 months I was thinking it might be decent. Keep in mind that my main objective is to give a slight boost to my recomp/cut efforts. I have wasted so much on “natty anabolics” and I’m essentially just trying to improve on those, which won’t take much, without a super high risk of shutdown.
AdelV
Well-known member
Honestly I recall taking aee/oee 10 years ago before bed, and 3500 aakg before training and my strength shot up like insane.
I was going to buy the stack again, just for the sack of it ? it ain't even that cheap these days.
Wildcat528
Active member
Just out of curiosity, would low dose dbol (10mg/day) be a potentially option instead of Anavar? Or if not is there any other low dose compound that may also be appropriate. I’ve made my selection to go with Anavar but just was curious so figured I’d ask. Thanks y’all!
mikeymike85
Well-known member
Why dont you run both...anavar is so mild I think you could get away with it...esp considering you're not really going to look a whole lot bigger on var. Granted my muscles look pumped ASF like DMZ type retention on var. Freaking love it, so addicting, Jeesum
Wildcat528
Active member
That right there isn’t an awful idea man. I’d probably add in the small dose of dbol about 4 weeks in. That should let me accurately gauge how I’m responding to the var, thoughts?
mikeymike85
Well-known member
I just think off 25mg var it is going to be hard how much it is doing. I have done 25mg but only for a week. You can feel it really starting to work at 50mg on up (assuming you dont have real RX). I've done Var and Dmz, and dmz has to be a whole lot more toxic than Dbol so I really think youd be fine and sounds like a good idea.
Wildcat528
Active member
Hey thanks for the insight bud. I’m finishing up my remaining “natty anabolics” aka waste of money and then I’ll give it a go
Wildcat528
Active member
Out of curiosity, what would other compounds be other than anavar that could be run low dose for a longer period of time for a recomp or cut? Thanks again y’all!
YoungThor
Well-known member
I don’t know your feelings on SARMS but a lot of people are saying good things about S23. You could run it at a normal dose and likely feel fine so long as you PCT correctly afterward. SARMS are designed to replace testosterone in patients with certain diseases, so they are intended to avoid symptoms of suppression/shut down even though you likely will be almost completely shut down. Most people can’t tell they’re suppressed on SARMS until they get blood work and they bounce back quickly. If you already knew this, sorry to be redundant.
YoungThor
Well-known member
Also, proviron. It actually increases free testosterone in the body, which is unheard of for steroids. It’s an AI. It makes your balls work better, actually increasing sperm count. So it’s a pretty weird AAS. But most people only run it in a cutting stack, not alone. It’ll likely increase muscle hardness and help you drop a little extra fat. But it’s pretty useless when it comes to adding lean mass. It potentiates the strength of other anabolics which could allow you to reduce the dose and run it longer.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
ALCAR and clenbuterol. You will have to cycle the clenbuterol a couple weeks on/ a couple weeks off
thefrenchmen
Member
Go ahead and try halodrol. 75mg up to 100 mg for 6-8 weeks. Pct would be nolva or clomid for 4 weeks. Just keep an AI and pct on hand. You’ll be good to go. If you want to try something anabolic, there will be suppression.
You could also try S4. I did 8 weeks with no pct. I felt fine. At the same time, I didn’t see any real gains. Shoulders were a little fuller, and got strong AF for a few weeks. Got up to 80mg and the vision sides were a little nuts. Didn’t bother me much, but going from bright outside to dark inside, I was almost color blind. It’s been 6 weeks and everything is fine.
No matter what you try, it won’t be your only cycle! Nobody cycles just once lol
Just take the proper precautions, and you’ll be fine
You could also try S4. I did 8 weeks with no pct. I felt fine. At the same time, I didn’t see any real gains. Shoulders were a little fuller, and got strong AF for a few weeks. Got up to 80mg and the vision sides were a little nuts. Didn’t bother me much, but going from bright outside to dark inside, I was almost color blind. It’s been 6 weeks and everything is fine.
No matter what you try, it won’t be your only cycle! Nobody cycles just once lol
Just take the proper precautions, and you’ll be fine
Wildcat528
Active member
Thanks for all of the advice and insight! I certainly have some things to research. What are the current feelings towards Winny for a cut? I recall it being popular a few years back but haven’t seen quite as much on it these days. I’ve heard the sides can be pretty rough but didn’t know about a moderately lengthy run at a low dose.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
It's hard to beat anavar when cutting. If you're ALREADY ripped, winny can make your physique more grainy and detailed. But risk vs reward.....Anavar wins hands down, unless, as said you are already ripped.
mikeymike85
Well-known member
Just like Ricky said, Anavar seems to trump Winny. I don't know many people that even mess with Winny anymore, everyone prefers Var. I personally love Var, it transforms your body like crazy if you know what you're doing. I try to run it 3-4x a year lol. Keeps my stomach in check and overall Rambo type physique lol.
Wildcat528
Active member
That makes sense, thanks for elaborating on that. Looks like anavar it is for sure then
Jinsun
Well-known member
LOL at people suggesting SARMs and even Halo for a NON SUPPRESSIVE cycle. People c'mon, don't give out such misinformation. All sarms suppress. In meaningful doses they shutdown. Halo lol...
Try pulsing dbol. Just on workout days. That probably wont shut you down. Or try test suspension also just preworkout. But keep in mind, pharmacokinetics differ from person to person. So what works for some might not for others. Also low dose primo 200 to 400 probably wont shut you down. I would go with primo + serm or var + serm.
And if I had money Mk677 + 6mg's cjc dac e5d.
Try pulsing dbol. Just on workout days. That probably wont shut you down. Or try test suspension also just preworkout. But keep in mind, pharmacokinetics differ from person to person. So what works for some might not for others. Also low dose primo 200 to 400 probably wont shut you down. I would go with primo + serm or var + serm.
And if I had money Mk677 + 6mg's cjc dac e5d.
thefrenchmen
Member
There’s a reason why people suggest halo as first cycle. You probably won’t get SHUT DOWN. Suppressed, probably. You asked for the strongest product that won’t cause you to shut down. I would say halo, or sarms.
SARMS
Member
I' not sure how serious you are about pulsing, but I have heard about a non-suppressive cycle. Suppression occurs due to AR binding and estrogenic effects on the hypothalmus… block those and there'd be no suppression. Taking 4AD w/ a serm could leave no suppression. There's an article about this somewhere. Also for anyone else reading, Proviron is SUPPRSSIVE... it's DHT
thefrenchmen
Member
If this was true, everyone would run a serm during cycle.
Wildcat528
Active member
The dbol pulsing idea is a tempting one as well. And I really appreciate people offering different opinions/ideas/etc. it’s helped me view things in various ways and from different angles. I think the general consensus is low dose anavar for 8-10 weeks. I’ll be running clomid along side it in an attempt to reduce the odds of shutdown. It will certainly be interesting to see how it goes though. I know that the effects won’t be drastic and my body won’t be changing daily at 20-30 mg, but I’m hoping that it’s enough to give even just a slight boost to my recomp over a lengthy period. A very subtle effect that occurs for 2-3 months may result in a noticeable change from start to finish that I wouldn’t see from just the junk natty anabolics.
thefrenchmen
Member
That sounds pretty expensive. I hope it’s going to be worth it. You said your body won’t be changing at 20-30 mg, why even run it? If your going to run something, make it worth it! I’d hate for you to spend the money on it and in the end not say it was worth it.
Good luck to whatever you do, and keep us posted on the clomid during the cycle. I’d like to see how that goes. Are you doing bloods?
CatSnake
Well-known member
if you're taking something hormonal and it's strong enough to exert greater effects than your own body, then you are going to have at least some moderate suppression.
few things cause complete shutdown, but I'm of the opinion that in nearly all cases, you need to do a PCT following anything hormonal.
few things cause complete shutdown, but I'm of the opinion that in nearly all cases, you need to do a PCT following anything hormonal.
CatSnake
Well-known member
yeah, this idea keeps resurfacing here....
several guys claim it works, but none of them have posted bloodwork showing this or applicable studies that verify this.
FWIW, I do NOT buy into that theory, although I guess it's worth a try, I guess...
Jinsun
Well-known member
1. serms take care of the estrogen negative feedback loop. They don't do anytging about the androgen negative feedback loop. That's why it can help with small amounts of not the most suppressive compounds ie. var, primo. It wont work with test, etc.
2. Proviron does not shutdown nor does it suppress in doses up to 150mg's. This has been debated and studied ad nauseam. Google it for F's sake.
2. Proviron does not shutdown nor does it suppress in doses up to 150mg's. This has been debated and studied ad nauseam. Google it for F's sake.
ericos_bob
Active member
Look into low dose naltrexone and a serm on cycle if you want to minimize suppression. Not effective with 19-nor compounds however.
Wildcat528
Active member
Valid point but just in terms of cost it wouldn’t be nearly as expensive as running a normal dose right? Running say 80-100mg/day for say 6 weeks will be significantly more expensive than 20-30mg/day for say 8 weeks. Btw in no way am I making cost a deciding factor. At the end of the day it’s just about expediting a recomp compared to running natty anabolics. Which based on my experience, natty anabolics can probably be topped by simply looking at var lol
Wildcat528
Active member
So just to play devils advocate how about this, say I run var at 20-30 mg for 8 weeks while running say clomid at 25mg/day and I experience some suppression. At the end of the 8 weeks I would probably increase to 50mg/day pharmagrade clomid at least for a couple weeks. Should I be able to still produce some test after completing PCT? Or will the clomid be rendered useless and ineffective? I’m not worried about some suppression as long as it doesn’t mess me up irreversibly long term. Thoughts?
ericos_bob
Active member
Natty anabolics are still a great stepping stone before moving up to creatine.
YoungThor
Well-known member
I could be wrong here but I think running anavar at 30 mg a day for 8 weeks would be less effective then running S23 at 30 mg for the same amount of time. Somebody is logging 30 mg S23 right now and he’s up 10 lbs and down at least 2% body fat and the only workout he’s done lately is hammer curling beers up to his lips.
Wildcat528
Active member
Interesting, I guess I’m just uneducated on what S23 even is so I figured stick to something I know. But that’s definitely worth looking into. I appreciate the insight bud!
Wildcat528
Active member
After looking into Proviron, it does seem quite interesting. I could be wrong but the information I’ve read says it will only cause very minimal suppression and at a low dose that risk decreases. If I opted for that instead of var for a cut, what would be the minimum dose I’d want to run at? I was thinking maybe 50mg/day but wanted to get some opinions if y’all don’t mind
ericos_bob
Active member
I understand you are trying to minimize potential sides (primarily the risks involved with suppression) but it sounds like you're a bit uncertain on whether to run AAS and weighing up whether it's worth the risk. The short story is there really are no steroids which illicit an effective anabolic response without some degree of suppression being experienced and you always roll the dice in terms of whether or not you will fully recover. MK677 is a no bull**** product. It absolutely will speed up your recomp if you keep calories in check. No it won't give you results like AAS or high doses of exogenous HGH but if you can run it for 8-12 weeks and keep your calories in check you absolutely will recomp faster than natural. Then you still have a selection of peptides which you can run alongside if that isn't enough for you. These options are still vastly more effective than the natty anabolic garbage and you will not suffer any degree of suppression.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
There was a study, I know It wasn't very long, but when injected with double the normal amount of test, estrogen and DHT they could not get LH to drop while the test subjects were taking clomid. So yeah, there is SOME science behind it. And if it can eliminate estrogen sides on cycle too, why not give it a go. (torem preferably)
And the clear evidence that it can make testosterone go from 750 to over 1,000 shows that it works in the presence of testosterone. What is unclear is how much testosterone it takes to overpower it. It worked with 50mg dbol, and dbol is quite suppressive, if not completely suppressive, at that dose.
user567
Active member
They injected TEST, E2 and DHT? Please post source of this.