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Rocket3015

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Copying over what I wrote elsewhere:

K1ngslayer improves appetite as well as improves nutrient update and utilization. Also stimulates anabolic pathways for muscle building, and blocks catabolic pathways.

Massacr3 and Ep1logue both share Urolithin B and Vaso6, which aid with muscle protein synthesis and muscle building, recovery, strength, body composition, vascularity, and pump. The difference is Massacr3 contains laxogenin and Ep1logue contains (-)-epicatechin.

The option to stack K1ngslayer with Massacr3 or Ep1logue is always there too. Would make a great stack, highly recommend eating in a surplus if you stack those and you should definitely see some great lean mass gains.

I will probably be stacking K1ngslayer and Ep1logue in a few weeks, if you're curious.
I would stack all (3) !!
 

GrowthFiend

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Copying over what I wrote elsewhere:

K1ngslayer improves appetite as well as improves nutrient update and utilization. Also stimulates anabolic pathways for muscle building, and blocks catabolic pathways.

Massacr3 and Ep1logue both share Urolithin B and Vaso6, which aid with muscle protein synthesis and muscle building, recovery, strength, body composition, vascularity, and pump. The difference is Massacr3 contains laxogenin and Ep1logue contains (-)-epicatechin.

The option to stack K1ngslayer with Massacr3 or Ep1logue is always there too. Would make a great stack, highly recommend eating in a surplus if you stack those and you should definitely see some great lean mass gains.

I will probably be stacking K1ngslayer and Ep1logue in a few weeks, if you're curious.
Is there such a thing as too much Urolithin B?
 
Afi140

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After My Log I'm a Beleiver order (2) True Shred and (2) Muscle Sculptor !!!

Get in on this folks !!
Yeah your logs were great. The feedback on both of those had been very positive. Anyone looking to try true shred should take advantage.
 
Rocket3015

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Yeah your logs were great. The feedback on both of those had been very positive. Anyone looking to try true shred should take advantage.
If it didn't work I would have not spent my own money to buy more (I'm Cheap)!!
 
VO2Maxima

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I would stack all (3) !!
Is there such a thing as too much Urolithin B?
If you're looking to stack all three, I would go full serving K1ngslayer + 1/2 dose Massacr3 (1 cap) + 1/2 dose Ep1logue (1 cap). It's not that it's too much UroB, but unless you're 250lbs and lean at that weight, it's a waste of money. 1 cap each Massacr3 and Ep1logue is more than enough, as it's still the full serving UroB + full serving Vaso6, plus a good dose of (-)-epicatechin and laxogenin, as we dosed both of those plenty high.
 
justhere4comm

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Just curious about Bulbine because I've read this and a few other resources that aren't fond of the compound.

https://examine.com/supplements/bulbine-natalensis/

"Bulbine natalensis
Bulbine Natalensis is a traditionally used aphrodisiac and testosterone booster in South and South-Eastern Africa; in rat studies, it appears to both be quite potent in increasing testosterone but also appears to damage organ function in a similar manner to a steroid cycle."

Can someone speak to this a little?
Does one then need on cycle support? Post Cycle?

It would appear based on dose and time of use would lead to more liver toxicity. It's probably not an issue here with a limited duration of use of only several weeks at a time, but it caught my attention a while back when someone was iterating this as a stand alone compound. Otherwise, it looks interesting.
 
mbonheur

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So I'm not associated with OL or BLR, but I assume when OL said they were using the same extract and dose as in the study, that'd mean that, since they're using 2g, they're using the same extract (method, potency, etc) as the study that used 2g. The extraction method and source material for this extract is clearly and explicitly stated in the full text of the study. Furthermore, claiming that the extract used in the study is a chlorogenic acid dependent/reliant/etc extract simply because it's standardized for chlorogenic acid is also more than a little disingenuous. The extract was standardized for 1.4-2.1mg/g; that's 0.14-0.21% of the extract. It's still a water extract. That still leaves over 99% of the extract to contain other compounds. Also, the other two studies they referenced also used water-extracts. Again, I have no association with OL or BLR, but let's not be disingenuous here; claiming that the extract used in the study is primarily a chlorogenic acid extract is just as silly as claiming that the 1g of Rehmannaie Radix you're using contains a meaningful quantity of betaine, which you actually did mention in your write-up.
Good points, not to mention the feasibility of 100:1 extracts as such. That said vector works pretty well for strength although I am not sure how and why.
 
justhere4comm

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Good points, not to mention the feasibility of 100:1 extracts as such. That said vector works pretty well for strength although I am not sure how and why.
I would agree with brundel here which leads me to your own conclusion of how it works so well, and is an existing product being used by quite a few people with similar results. I don't think he speaks at all to the feasibility because we are proving it every day.



"Just to be clear the OL guys stated they are using the extract as dictated in the studies they posted but there are 2 different types of extracts there. Two are full spectrum water extracts and 1 is standardized for chlorogenic acid.

There appears to be some confusion?

There is also no information regarding strength and while a play is made above to try to say that strength doesnt matter it does. Generally speaking if you ask for a water extract of KM you will get 10:1. This is standard practice.

So we will assume this. Most but not all KME extracts are water extraction because many of the constituents are water soluble which is of course how we determine extraction process. By understanding the active chemical compounds solubility.
10:1 means your using 10kg to extract down to 1kg end material.

We use 100:1. Which means it takes 100kg to get 1kg.
Now while this doesnt mean its exactly10x stronger than 10:1 (as this varies a bit) it is at least (conservatively) 5-7+ times stronger with regards to the percentage of chemical constituents in a full spectrum extract. This is based not only off of extensive experience but extensive testing we ran on multiple KME extract strengths. It matters. IN fact we doubled the strength of our extract (not the dose but the strength) because there was such a vast difference. Initially we used 2g of a 50:1 and 12 caps per day. We ended up with 1g at 100:1 because it was vastly superior.

Ours is not standardized for Chlorogenic acid as is indicated in their post. So its also not really comparable as they are using a chlorogenic acid extract and we use full spectrum because while chlorogenic acid is all well and good I dont think chlorogenic acid is the primary constituent.
So 1000mg of 100:1 contains more of the active constituents than 2000mg 10:1.

Saying strength doesnt matter is just false information. For example if you made 2 pots of coffee (a water extraction).
If you used 1 scoop of coffee for pot 1 and 10 scoops for pot 2 which one do you think has more caffeine and other constituents in the water?
Obviously #2 with 10x the raw material.

Also keep in mind Vector isnt just KME and while Im a big fan of KME I think Eriobotrya is its superior in every way. This is also what 100% of testers thought who tested both extracts by themselves for comparison. AND rehmannaie is equal to KME at least.

Each of these extracts could have been a successful solo product without doubt but combined......nothing currently compares with regards to strength of effects."
 

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Just curious about Bulbine because I've read this and a few other resources that aren't fond of the compound.

https://examine.com/supplements/bulbine-natalensis/

"Bulbine natalensis
Bulbine Natalensis is a traditionally used aphrodisiac and testosterone booster in South and South-Eastern Africa; in rat studies, it appears to both be quite potent in increasing testosterone but also appears to damage organ function in a similar manner to a steroid cycle."

Can someone speak to this a little?
Does one then need on cycle support? Post Cycle?

It would appear based on dose and time of use would lead to more liver toxicity. It's probably not an issue here with a limited duration of use of only several weeks at a time, but it caught my attention a while back when someone was iterating this as a stand alone compound. Otherwise, it looks interesting.
Um wow need to know if true don’t need any organ damage.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I would agree with brundel here which leads me to your own conclusion of how it works so well, and is an existing product being used by quite a few people with similar results. I don't think he speaks at all to the feasibility because we are proving it every day.



"Just to be clear the OL guys stated they are using the extract as dictated in the studies they posted but there are 2 different types of extracts there. Two are full spectrum water extracts and 1 is standardized for chlorogenic acid.

There appears to be some confusion?

There is also no information regarding strength and while a play is made above to try to say that strength doesnt matter it does. Generally speaking if you ask for a water extract of KM you will get 10:1. This is standard practice.

So we will assume this. Most but not all KME extracts are water extraction because many of the constituents are water soluble which is of course how we determine extraction process. By understanding the active chemical compounds solubility.
10:1 means your using 10kg to extract down to 1kg end material.

We use 100:1. Which means it takes 100kg to get 1kg.
Now while this doesnt mean its exactly10x stronger than 10:1 (as this varies a bit) it is at least (conservatively) 5-7+ times stronger with regards to the percentage of chemical constituents in a full spectrum extract. This is based not only off of extensive experience but extensive testing we ran on multiple KME extract strengths. It matters. IN fact we doubled the strength of our extract (not the dose but the strength) because there was such a vast difference. Initially we used 2g of a 50:1 and 12 caps per day. We ended up with 1g at 100:1 because it was vastly superior.

Ours is not standardized for Chlorogenic acid as is indicated in their post. So its also not really comparable as they are using a chlorogenic acid extract and we use full spectrum because while chlorogenic acid is all well and good I dont think chlorogenic acid is the primary constituent.
So 1000mg of 100:1 contains more of the active constituents than 2000mg 10:1.

Saying strength doesnt matter is just false information. For example if you made 2 pots of coffee (a water extraction).
If you used 1 scoop of coffee for pot 1 and 10 scoops for pot 2 which one do you think has more caffeine and other constituents in the water?
Obviously #2 with 10x the raw material.

Also keep in mind Vector isnt just KME and while Im a big fan of KME I think Eriobotrya is its superior in every way. This is also what 100% of testers thought who tested both extracts by themselves for comparison. AND rehmannaie is equal to KME at least.

Each of these extracts could have been a successful solo product without doubt but combined......nothing currently compares with regards to strength of effects."
I’m not saying you guys aren’t using a solid extract, or that your product isn’t effective; the feedback points towards it being a solid product. I’m simply saying that Brundel was being disingenuous in his post that you, for some reason, seem to have copied and pasted again here. Could you perhaps address the points I made?
 
Afi140

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True Shred was great, can't wait to run it again in a month or so!
Wise man. I’ll be running it shortly on a cut myself.
 
Afi140

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Just curious about Bulbine because I've read this and a few other resources that aren't fond of the compound.

https://examine.com/supplements/bulbine-natalensis/

"Bulbine natalensis
Bulbine Natalensis is a traditionally used aphrodisiac and testosterone booster in South and South-Eastern Africa; in rat studies, it appears to both be quite potent in increasing testosterone but also appears to damage organ function in a similar manner to a steroid cycle."

Can someone speak to this a little?
Does one then need on cycle support? Post Cycle?

It would appear based on dose and time of use would lead to more liver toxicity. It's probably not an issue here with a limited duration of use of only several weeks at a time, but it caught my attention a while back when someone was iterating this as a stand alone compound. Otherwise, it looks interesting.
See below. There is a little inside from coop in terms of toxicity. Yes it’s best cycled for sure , however, the statement quoted seems to be exaggerated.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/264115-bulbine-natalenisis.html
 
justhere4comm

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See below. There is a little inside from coop in terms of toxicity. Yes it’s best cycled for sure , however, the statement quoted seems to be greatly exaggerated.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/264115-bulbine-natalenisis.html
Thank you for posting that thread. I came away with some great advice from a very respected member The Old Guy, whom hasn't been around for a long time here and is missed. He even states using some kind of support for it. No longer than 6 weeks, and no human studies. I've seen the rat studies and they are contrarian enough for me to say hard pass on this unless it's very short term and for a feel good aphrodisiac effects. For that, I think it's right there, but not an additional effective constituent to a well rounded cutting product. For that, I see it as the 'feel good' oh, this works thing
because I feel something.

It was a very good read though, and thank you! Some interesting comments.
 

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So is I safe or not?? All of this crap leads me to believe we really don’t know what’s in any of this stuff.
 
Afi140

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So is I safe or not?? All of this crap leads me to believe we really don’t know what’s in any of this stuff.
In moderation and at reasonable lengths you should be good. Most of what we use in the supplement world should follow these principles. I have had ast/alt levels skyrocket on some natural products over the years. If you’re really concerned perhaps regular blood work would help you out. You seem to have a fear of a lot of ingredients/products.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Thank you for posting that thread. I came away with some great advice from a very respected member The Old Guy, whom hasn't been around for a long time here and is missed. He even states using some kind of support for it. No longer than 6 weeks, and no human studies. I've seen the rat studies and they are contrarian enough for me to say hard pass on this unless it's very short term and for a feel good aphrodisiac effects. For that, I think it's right there, but not an additional effective constituent to a well rounded cutting product. For that, I see it as the 'feel good' oh, this works thing
because I feel something.

It was a very good read though, and thank you! Some interesting comments.
Did you say no human studies?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3500755/
 
justhere4comm

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I said after reading that thread linked to me, what was stated in that thread. Read it please.

I read that study, it's directly linked to the examine article that I posted. It was short term, and showed no damage as far as a short term usage, which to me is inconclusive, and if you actually read my posts, it really does nothing towards adding any value to a product for cutting except to give you the 'feels'. Short term is good, long term, I don't trust it. You can take it. I'll hard pass.

Look who SPONSORED that study.

Have an original thought to convey instead of just linking studies and being snarky.
 

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I said after reading that thread linked to me, what was stated in that thread. That's what I said.

I read that study, it's directly linked to the examine article that I posted. It was short term, and showed no damage as far as a short term usage, which to me is inconclusive, and if you actually read my posts, it really does nothing towards adding any value to a product for cutting except to give you the 'feels'. Short term is good, long term, I don't trust it. You can take it. I'll hard pass.

Have an original thought to convey instead of just linking studies and being snarky.
You have another cutting supplement you prefer?
 
justhere4comm

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You have another cutting supplement you prefer?
Make sure hormones are in range.

Proper diet, basic staples, pro-pre-biotics targeting with specific strains, try not to be too aerobic but strategic.
What you eat, when you eat it.

Sweating does help a little. Supplements will go great if you are dropping by smaller percentages to sub 14% body fat.
The rest is not needed. But, rest and recuperation is. Maximize your GH.

Edit: I made a non-stim fat burner once, and it's great. It works for everything you would think you'd need in a feel good supplement that aided in the nasty side of caloric restrictions, but it's a long-term and expensive product that may not really be necessary. It was a great idea on paper, and has everything one could use long-term including 7-keto DHEA which has been proven to help versus placebo groups to lose more weight.

I think the product in this discussion would be just as good without the Bulbine, and better long term.
Bulbine alone (saying this again) is pretty cool short term.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I said after reading that thread linked to me, what was stated in that thread. Read it please.

I read that study, it's directly linked to the examine article that I posted. It was short term, and showed no damage as far as a short term usage, which to me is inconclusive, and if you actually read my posts, it really does nothing towards adding any value to a product for cutting except to give you the 'feels'. Short term is good, long term, I don't trust it. You can take it. I'll hard pass.

Look who SPONSORED that study.

Have an original thought to convey instead of just linking studies and being snarky.
Can you address the points I've made earlier regarding mistletoe extracts? Thanks. I think I've had plenty of original thoughts and legitimate claims/statements/questions, but it seems that you just habitually ignore them.
 
leroyjenkinss

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So is I safe or not?? All of this crap leads me to believe we really don’t know what’s in any of this stuff.
Bro, you might just want to stick to cardio and stay away from supplements, but be careful, if you do a lot of cardio you can lose weight fast which isn't healthy, so you might want to not do that either.
 
musclemaker

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In moderation and at reasonable lengths you should be good. Most of what we use on the supplement world should follow these principles. I have had ast/alt levels skyrocket on some natural products over the years. If you’re really concerned perhaps regular blood work would help you out. You seem to have a fear of a lot of ingredients/products.
Most supplements have risks, moderation is always key. Right on.
 
soxbsbll05

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Yep it's pretty good, I'm enjoying Major Gains right now as I am starting to get even more definition and hardness, solid products coming out.
How long have you been on Major Gains? Anything else you notice as of yet besides the definition and hardness?
 
musclemaker

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Yep it's pretty good, I'm enjoying Major Gains right now as I am starting to get even more definition and hardness, solid products coming out.
Nice to hear some early feedback! Glad to hear it is working out well.
 
muscleupcrohn

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So I'm not associated with OL or BLR, but I assume when OL said they were using the same extract and dose as in the study, that'd mean that, since they're using 2g, they're using the same extract (method, potency, etc) as the study that used 2g. The extraction method and source material for this extract is clearly and explicitly stated in the full text of the study. Furthermore, claiming that the extract used in the study is a chlorogenic acid dependent/reliant/etc extract simply because it's standardized for chlorogenic acid is also more than a little disingenuous. The extract was standardized for 1.4-2.1mg/g; that's 0.14-0.21% of the extract. It's still a water extract, and a standardized extract can still be a full-spectrum extract (KSM-66 is a prominent example of this). That still leaves over 99% of the extract to contain other compounds. Also, the other two studies they referenced also used water-extracts. Again, I have no association with OL or BLR, but let's not be disingenuous here; claiming that the extract used in the study is primarily a chlorogenic acid extract is just as silly as claiming that the 1g of Rehmannaie Radix you're using contains a meaningful quantity of betaine, which you actually did mention in your write-up.
Any response guys? Justhere, you asked me to have an “original thought,” so here’s a few. Again, not bashing your products at all, just saying that the post Brundel made, and you quoted, is very disingenuous and misleading.
 
musclemaker

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Any response guys? Justhere, you asked me to have an “original thought,” so here’s a few. Again, not bashing your products at all, just saying that the post Brundel made, and you quoted, is very disingenuous and misleading.
Would answer if I knew how. :-/
 
muscleupcrohn

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Would answer if I knew how. :-/
You’re good. I was more just trying to clear up some confusion that people may have after reading the other posts than anything, and was curious as to what their response is.
 
LeanEngineer

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Yep it's pretty good, I'm enjoying Major Gains right now as I am starting to get even more definition and hardness, solid products coming out.
Awesome man! Glad it's working for you and hope you get even more results as you get farther in to the bottle.
 
boflex78

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How long have you been on Major Gains? Anything else you notice as of yet besides the definition and hardness?
Fullness of muscles and strength is increasing even as I am in a deficit with my calories. Those are the main things as far as I can tell, probably about a week left in the first bottle.
 
Afi140

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Fullness of muscles and strength is increasing even as I am in a deficit with my calories. Those are the main things as far as I can tell, probably about a week left in the first bottle.
Appreciate the feedback. My muscles always get so flat in a deficit and strength is even worse. Glad you’re enjoying so far.
 
musclemaker

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Fullness of muscles and strength is increasing even as I am in a deficit with my calories. Those are the main things as far as I can tell, probably about a week left in the first bottle.
Using it standalone? Or stacking?
 
Olympus Labs

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You’re good. I was more just trying to clear up some confusion that people may have after reading the other posts than anything, and was curious as to what their response is.
It is in fact disingenuous to defer the topic from KMT to an ingredient not found in K1NGS SLAYER and elicit the majority of the positive feedback to that ingredient, when in fact we all know that this is just a baseless defense tactic to encourage users to use competitors product. We have worked with the KMT ingredient for close to a year now and were very careful to utilize the correct extract which matches the studies conducted by the researchers in Korea.

Yes, 100:1 is supposed to be 100 kilos of plant to make 1 kilo powder, but in fact no factory does this, they just use less plant and more maltodextrin. Its far more common that a raw material manufacturer will use the same amount of plant for various ratios 10:1 50:1 100:1 and just replace the difference with maltodextrin. So these various ratios could all contain the same amount of plant while indicating something else on the label. This is easy to get away with since there is no way to test ratio plants and the only reason we used the ingredient we did in our product is because its the same exact ingredient found in the studies which is something any virtuous company would and should do.

Take LJ100 for example, you can find what i've demonstrated above 100:1 for 65$ a kilo on the raw material market which is mostly maltodextrin and then you can buy LJ100 which has a price of over 1300$ a kilo which uses a genuine 100:1 extract.

The sad nature is that most raw material manufacturers which we have a tight grip over (actually visiting various in China right now) will cut corners and never inform their end customer. This isn't an attack on competitor but they need more understanding of how things work and what corners are cut in order to preserve their costs and maintain their profits.
 
brundel

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So is I safe or not?? All of this crap leads me to believe we really don’t know what’s in any of this stuff.
Ultimately its important to do your homework when taking anything.
Many people believe because these are plants and are natural they must be safe. This is not necessarily true. There are alot of plants that will kill you if you eat them. Many are hallucinogenic. Some will cause blindness or paralysis.
As of 2017 approx 50% of the medications used are plant based or are derived from a chemical that comes from a plant and there are some stout ones.
The point is plants are not safe and sane because they are plants.

Im not sure if you follow our brand but those who do will recognize that it frequently takes us a year or more to get new products to market.
This is because we always have something in the product that is new and many of these are not well understood so we take in some cases a year or more to complete testing both for efficacy and for safety. Most plants have many chemical constituents and some of these chemicals naturally have interactions with other drugs or have negative side effects so its important to understand what these are before embarking on a supplement run.

Always take the time to read the label and do yourselves a favor and spend a few min looking into each ingredient.
 
SteaknTaters

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The sad nature is that most raw material manufacturers which we have a tight grip over (actually visiting various in China right now) will cut corners and never inform their end customer. This isn't an attack on competitor but they need more understanding of how things work and what corners are cut in order to preserve their costs and maintain their profits.
One of the reasons I love OL.

Love BLR too.

Healthy competition, creates great products, customers wins.
 
brandonLPN

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Anyone tried Muscle Sculptor fat burner from Strong Supplements website? Just ordered some.
 
musclemaker

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GOT GUT? TIME TO CUT!

The Fat Burner With Muscle



Relatively few leaps have been made in fat burners over the years, but latest one to hit the market may just be the innovation the physique world has been asking for....Read More
 
musclemaker

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Anyone tried Muscle Sculptor fat burner from Strong Supplements website? Just ordered some.
I have tried it and it hit me very well, but I have not used it consistently, was just testing it out.

There are actually 3 logs running right now on it!

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/301854-muscle-skulptor-sponsored.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/301951-kjs-vital-alchemy.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/301840-mkretz-makes-his.html

Thanks for shopping with us!
 
Joepower

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GOT GUT? TIME TO CUT!

The Fat Burner With Muscle



Relatively few leaps have been made in fat burners over the years, but latest one to hit the market may just be the innovation the physique world has been asking for....Read More
Lost my gut with some True Shred!
 
Rocket3015

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