Steroid or Prohormone that helps cut visceral fat

A good old eca stack was completely overlooked till that last post so thumbs up for that. Also I do believe that yohimbine before fasted cardio has a effect on visceral fat. Then we have the dreaded high intensity cardio which definitely zapps visceral fat. We named some steroids and gh that "help" with fat loss, t3 and clen. Potentially injectable sr9009 and endless talk on berberine and metformin. I'm out of ideas and have spent way too much time in this thread in the last 24hrs, good luck mrrobot, hope someone in here helped you at least a little bit.
 
MadStax said:
Ok, this isn't entirely accurate. If you're not taking a sulfonylurea with the metformin, your body will produce less insulin over time, because your blood sugar will stay low. The only way to properly use metformin without some sort of insulin or insulin releasing drug, is to use it on a weekly or biweekly refeed.

I did a ton of reading on this subject and am about to embark on a cycle of metformin and sulfonylurea. Insulin scares the hell out of me, so this is a safer way for me to manipulate it and get my toes wet.

I'd highly suggest that anyone considering using these drugs put in the time to fully understand them and how they work. These are not something you can play with and have zero knowledge of.
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I don't think this fits in with what people want to hear
 
Smont said:
Mrrobot must hate us, he did ask a tough question but we really dragged it down the rabbit hole. Sorry mrrobot
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I don't know who started with the berberine, but since I, like you, feel like insulin resistance is kind of key here, am not at all uninterested in these questions now!
 
Smont said:
If your on a cycle those things are negligible. I completely understand what your saying and it makes sense, but I also think your overthinking it. If your on gear and eating a moderate to high carb diet then a lot if not all of those things your talking about dont really come into play anymore. If they did then either you wouldn't see these mammoths on stage or there would be a bunch of bodybuilders talking about this stuff. How to avoid the negative sides of these compounds. It's like nolva lowering igf, when your on gear its negligible and dosen't prevent muscle growth.
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I did bring this up originally way back when. I wondered if the gear trumps the inhibition (which appears to be real both theoretically and clinically), and unfortunately no one in the scientific community cares what would be our first and most obvious question about this.
 
More smack talk about Berberine:

Mechanism study of goldenseal-associated DNA damage Invalid Link Removed

"As measured by the Comet assay and the expression of γ-H2A.X, berberine, followed by palmatine, appeared to be the most potent DNA damage inducer in human hepatoma HepG2 cells."
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Berberine induces double-strand DNA breaks in Rev3 deficient cells Invalid Link Removed

"Following berberine treatment, cell cycle analysis identified that G2/M arrest was increased in Rev3-/- cells. Furthermore, compared with wild-type cells (WT), berberine also induced a significant increase in double-strand breaks (DSBs) in Rev3-/- cells, as revealed by chromosomal aberration (CA) analysis."
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Genotoxicity of the isoquinoline alkaloid berberine in prokaryotic and eukaryotic organisms Invalid Link Removed

"Among the different repair-deficient mutants examined, a mutant blocked in the DNA strand-break repair pathway (rad52-1) was found to be the most sensitive to the cytotoxic effect of berberine."
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Berberine induces apoptosis and DNA damage in MG‑63 human osteosarcoma cells Invalid Link Removed

"Furthermore, berberine induced significant concentration- and time-dependent increases in DNA damage compared with that in the negative control [in the MG-63 cells]"
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**Toxicology and carcinogenesis studies of goldenseal root powder (Hydrastis Canadensis) in F344/N rats and B6C3F1 mice (feed studies). ** Invalid Link Removed

"Under the conditions of these 2-year feed studies, there was clear evidence of carcinogenic activity of goldenseal root powder in male F344/N rats based on the increased incidences of hepatocellular adenoma and hepatocellular adenoma or carcinoma (combined). There was clear evidence of carcinogenic activity of goldenseal root powder in female F344/N rats based on the increased incidence of hepatocellular adenoma. There was some evidence of carcinogenic activity of goldenseal root powder in male B6C3F1 mice based on the increased incidences of hepatoblastoma and multiple hepatocellular adenoma. There was no evidence of carcinogenic activity of goldenseal root powder in female B6C3F1 mice exposed to 3,000, 9,000, or 25,000 ppm goldenseal root powder in feed for 2 years. Administration of goldenseal root powder resulted in increased incidences of nonneoplastic lesions in the liver of male and female rats and male mice."
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Cut and pasted:

"What does all this mean? One might think that since most of these reports show berberine killing cancer cells, that would be a good thing. Unfortunately, it is more complex than that. One thing that typically happens in cancer cells is that they lose their ability to stop or slow down cell division to fix broken DNA. Healthy cells have a very rigorous detection system for DNA double strand breaks (the kind of damage that berberine appears to induce) that causes them to freeze in their cell cycle until the damage is fixed. Cancer cells plow right through, wrecking their genomes more and more until they are just nonfunctional bags of garbage [technical term]. Except one time out of a million that healthy cell misses the damage or fixes it aberrantly and that is how we get cancer cells in the first place. Thus the expected effects of chemicals that causes double strand breaks is to preferentially kill cancer cells but, at low frequency, to induce cancer in healthy cells.

So, the tl;dr is: I do not believe that Berberine is safe for chronic use, it is potentially carcinogenic and definitely genotoxic."

MrRobot:
I would class this perhaps in the category of F-it, I'm doing it anyway because of my goals, like with many of the choices we make including me. However, I might not really understand the seriousness of it.
 
So later on tonight I'm going to read through those studies.

When I really want to understand how important a study is, I look at the sample size, then I try to find out what kind of ppl are involved in making the study and what the ppl in the study were like, sick, old obese ect. Then dive down the rabbit hole some more.

I remember a while back someone showed me a study that something caused cancer, but then reading into it the study was done on a group of only 75 ppl, the majority were obese, 42 of them smoked and drank, none of them exercise regularly and the list goes on. So did product x actually cause the cancer or did maybe the other 50 things they were doing wrong cause cancer. But they threw those factors out the window. Ever since then I almost avoided reading certain studies because il end up spending 3 days trying to pick it to pieces and get a opposite opinion lol. But because this is about berberine and I'm just starting to really make it part of my every day supplements I gotta look
 
Just a thought since we're on the topic of insulin resistance: Telismarten

I'm taking Telismarten, a blood pressure drug, for its metabolic side effects, but also for BP.

I'm at around 140/75 on TRT. With 40mg Telismarten added I was in the 120's, and currently ramping up a blast and it's creeping back up to 140 again. Will increase the dose.

Also would have tested glucose but while I pin myself 1-4 times a day with something or other, for some reason I can't bring myself to prick my finger and haven't opened the monitor package sitting here.

Although recent non-fasted medical testing showed no abnormalities, I feel my sensitivity to CJC 1295 and Ipamorelin have been quite pronounced, not to mention the OP gut, which may indicate something or other about insulin and me.
 
mrrobot said:
Just a thought since we're on the topic of insulin resistance: Telismarten

I'm taking Telismarten, a blood pressure drug, for its metabolic side effects, but also for BP.

I'm at around 140/75 on TRT. With 40mg Telismarten added I was in the 120's, and currently ramping up a blast and it's creeping back up to 140 again. Will increase the dose.

Also would have tested glucose but while I pin myself 1-4 times a day with something or other, for some reason I can't bring myself to prick my finger and haven't opened the monitor package sitting here.

Although recent non-fasted medical testing showed no abnormalities, I feel my sensitivity to CJC 1295 and Ipamorelin have been quite pronounced, not to mention the OP gut, which may indicate something or other about insulin and me.
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I really try to keep teli (or the others in that cohort) as a last resort for BP (although absolutely it’s better than having high BP)

did you try all the natural supps/lifestyle routes first?

from an overall health standpoint I like any drug I use to have upsides that can only be achieved with that drug.
 
In animal studies, tren was shown to reduce fat in heffers. Basically showing trenbolone causes lipogenesis.

Invalid Link Removed

Perhaps the most favorable effect of drostanolone is that it can increase muscle hardness and density in the athlete, giving him a more complete and finished look when he steps on stage. A lot of pure androgens have this effect. But with all of them you need an already rather low body-fat level for it to take full effect. A lot of people who had heard of this effect experimented with drostanolone and were sorely disappointed because they were too fat when they started.
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Adipose tissue contains estrogen and drugs like Masteron can alter that and cause fat loss.

Invalid Link Removed

Further, Anavar can cause appetite suppression.

[The main reasons for the wide-spread use of oxandrolone in sports is because it is very appealing to female athletes as well as male athletes. It causes little or no virilization properties, demonstrated by its medical uses to treat women. This is rather surprising since oxandrolone does not aromatize either. It's the only steroid that is both safe and convenient without producing excess estrogen. That makes it particularly useful when cutting up for a contest or preventing an increase in body-fat due to estrogenic effects. In fact the main use of oxandrolone to a bodybuilder is in the maintenance of lean mass while reducing body-fat. Oxandrolone itself may not actually reduce body-fat, but it too plays a key role in the process. Like most non-aromatizing compounds it has a repressing effect on the appetite making it easier for the user to control cravings and stay strict with his diet./quote]
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RIPDanDuchaine said:
In animal studies, tren was shown to reduce fat in heffers. Basically showing trenbolone causes lipogenesis.

Invalid Link Removed



Adipose tissue contains estrogen and drugs like Masteron can alter that and cause fat loss.

Invalid Link Removed

Further, Anavar can cause appetite suppression.
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You calling the OP a heffer?? 😂
 
In my personal experience, Var does suppress appetite. When I roll off I find myself eating like a madman.
 
We all probably wish we were heffers if they had taken that myostatin gene out of us to make mutants like these:

Invalid Link Removed
 
To effectively reduce visceral fat you're probably going to have to fast. I personally hate fasting but this is hands down the most effective way to drop visceral bodyfat.
 
Leakydelts said:
To effectively reduce visceral fat you're probably going to have to fast. I personally hate fasting but this is hands down the most effective way to drop visceral bodyfat.
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I think there were studies that proved intermittent fasting made it harder to cut fat. Calorie restriction won by a long shot iirc.
 
Leakydelts said:
To effectively reduce visceral fat you're probably going to have to fast. I personally hate fasting but this is hands down the most effective way to drop visceral bodyfat.
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I’m a huge fan of fasting but for health reasons (cell autophagy) rather than weight loss
 
MadStax said:
I think there were studies that proved intermittent fasting made it harder to cut fat. Calorie restriction won by a long shot iirc.
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Sumo wrestlers invented intermittent fasting... well maybe not invented it lol but it's there way of life. Fast all day while working and practicing and they eat one massive meal and go to sleep
 
Either way I hate fasting. I occasionally do it on accident because of busy days and I just hate it, oh ya, and I hate it.
 
Smont said:
Sumo wrestlers invented intermittent fasting... well maybe not invented it lol but it's there way of life. Fast all day while working and practicing and they eat one massive meal and go to sleep
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Lol, that must be a one massive meal.
 
KvanH said:
Lol, that must be a one massive meal.
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It is, theres a couple documentaries on world class sumos. They make this stuff called chonko something lol, they eat like 4000+ calories plus some beers in like a 2 hr period. The bigger guys do it wait a couple hours and do it again then sleep. The better of a sumo you are the less chores and work you have allowing time for the extra food
 
Smont said:
Either way I hate fasting. I occasionally do it on accident because of busy days and I just hate it, oh ya, and I hate it.
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Same here. Have been interested to try because of the health benefits and the focus/cognitive enhacement people talk about, but I can't be without food even for 6 hours, lol.
 
Smont said:
It is, theres a couple documentaries on world class sumos. They make this stuff called chonko something lol, they eat like 4000+ calories plus some beers in like a 2 hr period. The bigger guys do it wait a couple hours and do it again then sleep. The better of a sumo you are the less chores and work you have allowing time for the extra food
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Sounds like my cheat day = )
 
KvanH said:
Same here. Have been interested to try because of the health benefits and the focus/cognitive enhacement people talk about, but I can't be without food even for 6 hours, lol.
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I did a 5 day water fast last year. Done a number of 36 hour fasts (used to do when every couple weeks).

stopped that whilst on bulk but still try to maintain a 12 hour fasted window (apparently has some of the benefits still)
 
Whisky said:
I did a 5 day water fast last year. Done a number of 36 hour fasts (used to do when every couple weeks).

stopped that whilst on bulk but still try to maintain a 12 hour fasted window (apparently has some of the benefits still)
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12 hours isint crazy, any day you skip breakfast after a nights sleep your basically at 12 hours for meal 1. What kills me is the fast all day, eat 1 meal and go to bed. I now a couple ppl on that schedule and in my eyes that's starving yourself then gorging yourself in one meal to get your macros in. Sounds a lot like a eating disorder.
 
I also find any time I've had a real busy day that left me with a small window to eat before bed, I've woke up in the middle of the night and ate everything bad in sight, if theres a bag of oreos in the house, it's gone by morning as well as half a gallon of milk. No self control in this guy lol. So I just eat regularly and try to keep junk out of sight out of mind
 
Smont said:
12 hours isint crazy, any day you skip breakfast after a nights sleep your basically at 12 hours for meal 1. What kills me is the fast all day, eat 1 meal and go to bed. I now a couple ppl on that schedule and in my eyes that's starving yourself then gorging yourself in one meal to get your macros in. Sounds a lot like a eating disorder.
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the 12 hour really isn’t hard at all, you stop eating at 9pm and I just walk the dog first on the morning and catch up with work and by the time I’m ready to eat it’s gone 10 anyway

but loads of people now sitting eating junk till they go to bed at 11 and the first thing they do when they wake at 7 is easy again.

I’ve looked into it all in the past and without going back to find the exact mechanism’s the general gist is that even a 12 hour window is enough for the body to do some of the clean up it needs to stay healthy and fit.
 
RIPDanDuchaine said:
In animal studies, tren was shown to reduce fat in heffers. Basically showing trenbolone causes lipogenesis.

Invalid Link Removed
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You're mixing up your terminology. Lipogenesis refers to fat formation. You may be thinking of lipolysis.

I would also take another read through that particular linked abstract to determine what they were studying and what the conclusions were.

A couple key sentences - "Trenbolone acetate alone had no detectable effect on lipogenesis in the intact heifer, but the combination of ovariectomy and trenbolone acetate caused substantial decreases in enzyme activities, in most cases a significant decrease as compared with ovariectomized heifers. The data suggest that trenbolone acetate is able to depress lipogenesis only when not competing with the effects of circulating estradiol."

So interestingly it (tren) was shown to limit lipogenic enzyme activity, but only in some test subjects. Below is a link to an interesting read regarding rats treated with tren, with some discussion of extrapolating results/observations to humans:

core.ac.uk/download/pdf/143896073.pdf

Anyways, even administering just testosterone can increase visceral and subcutaneous fat loss as compared to placebo in humans fed hypocaloric diets and combined with exercise, fwiw.
 
Whisky said:
I really try to keep teli (or the others in that cohort) as a last resort for BP (although absolutely it’s better than having high BP)

did you try all the natural supps/lifestyle routes first?

from an overall health standpoint I like any drug I use to have upsides that can only be achieved with that drug.
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Why do you caution against Telismarten? It doesn't seem more drastic addition than berberine or metformin, although that's a really imprecise statement.

I could perhaps find the one supp that works, or do more to lower my hemocrit with a cpap, that's about all that's left (or switch to a mainly endurance athlete instead of lifting-- not an option). But it's the steroids that are raising my bp, along with genes, the hemocrit, and related to the hemocrit: covid.
Since Covid, my 02 has been ****. Maybe the vaccines will help.

I will be on maintenance trt in a few weeks and probably for the whole year. or forever
 
mrrobot said:
Why do you caution against Telismarten? It doesn't seem more drastic addition than berberine or metformin, although that's a really imprecise statement.

I could perhaps find the one supp that works, or do more to lower my hemocrit with a cpap, that's about all that's left (or switch to a mainly endurance athlete instead of lifting-- not an option). But it's the steroids that are raising my bp, along with genes, the hemocrit, and related to the hemocrit: covid.
Since Covid, my 02 has been ****. Maybe the vaccines will help.

I will be on maintenance trt in a few weeks and probably for the whole year. or forever
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For O2 booster I really like MST Cordygen VO2
 
Kronic said:
Metformin has a lot of side effects
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I believe you'll find that even if your are unlucky enough to have sides from metformin, they almost always subside after a few weeks of continued use. Also, for bodybuilders, it's best to only use it 1-2 days per week anyway, so sides are quite rare!
 
Winny.
I have ran just AIs and dropped 15 lbs of bloat weight in 2 weeks, but that doesn't sound like what you are after.
 
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Smont said:
A good old eca stack was completely overlooked till that last post so thumbs up for that. Also I do believe that yohimbine before fasted cardio has a effect on visceral fat. Then we have the dreaded high intensity cardio which definitely zapps visceral fat. We named some steroids and gh that "help" with fat loss, t3 and clen. Potentially injectable sr9009 and endless talk on berberine and metformin. I'm out of ideas and have spent way too much time in this thread in the last 24hrs, good luck mrrobot, hope someone in here helped you at least a little bit.
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Fasted cardio has kind of a controversial history. This article is old, I'll ask Will Brink if fasted cardio is still not recommended.

Invalid Link Removed

However, other studies show it does have some benefits.

Invalid Link Removed

I would do fasted cardio with a BCAA drink like good ole Invalid Link Removed. The BCAAs will help prevent muscle wasting during fasted cardio, or at least that's the theory.

Although Alan Aragon disagrees and believes you should use a scoop of whey instead,

Invalid Link Removed
 
mrrobot said:
Why do you caution against Telismarten? It doesn't seem more drastic addition than berberine or metformin, although that's a really imprecise statement.

I could perhaps find the one supp that works, or do more to lower my hemocrit with a cpap, that's about all that's left (or switch to a mainly endurance athlete instead of lifting-- not an option). But it's the steroids that are raising my bp, along with genes, the hemocrit, and related to the hemocrit: covid.
Since Covid, my 02 has been ****. Maybe the vaccines will help.

I will be on maintenance trt in a few weeks and probably for the whole year. or forever
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it’s not that I’m against teli per se. If you have hypertension then absolutely it needs dealing with.

im just not a fan of using drugs as a sticking plaster when they don’t address the cause, if there are natural or lifestyle change options.

bit like using metformin for type 2 diabetes.....rather than just popping a pill and eating like a cockwomble, imo people should change their lifestyle.

there are so many natural and lifestyle options for blood pressure than can have a profound effect,

it may be you do all those things already and there is some genetic issues in which case it might be your only option, that’s fair enough. But in the same way most of us advise people to reach their natural potential first, before going on gear, if you can avoid taking a drug imo that’s the route to go
 
Whisky said:
it’s not that I’m against teli per se. If you have hypertension then absolutely it needs dealing with.

im just not a fan of using drugs as a sticking plaster when they don’t address the cause, if there are natural or lifestyle change options.

bit like using metformin for type 2 diabetes.....rather than just popping a pill and eating like a cockwomble, imo people should change their lifestyle.

there are so many natural and lifestyle options for blood pressure than can have a profound effect,

it may be you do all those things already and there is some genetic issues in which case it might be your only option, that’s fair enough. But in the same way most of us advise people to reach their natural potential first, before going on gear, if you can avoid taking a drug imo that’s the route to go
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Fasted cardio on it's own, not really any better then regular fed cardio.

Yohimbine with fasted cardio is a little different
 
Smont said:
Fasted cardio on it's own, not really any better then regular fed cardio.

Yohimbine with fasted cardio is a little different
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I would even say that fasted cardio is not as good for many in practice, as you can have less energy to do the cardio. This was the case for me. Running 7 miles not fasted > running 5 miles fasted.
 
Smont said:
Fasted cardio on it's own, not really any better then regular fed cardio.

Yohimbine with fasted cardio is a little different
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?? you mean to quote me on that one bro?

i do my cardio fasted in the morning purely because I hate doing it when having eaten
 
Whisky said:
?? you mean to quote me on that one bro?

i do my cardio fasted in the morning purely because I hate doing it when having eaten
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No, someone quoted me cusco said fasted cardio. They said it's not any better or something but I had only mentioned fasted cardio with yohimbine as part of the things that burn visceral fat. Lol I dont remember who I was supposed to be quoting tho. Either way, I know theres studies that say fasted isint better. I think that only applies to overall weight loss. I honestly believe it does more for fat loss tho
 
KvanH said:
I would even say that fasted cardio is not as good for many in practice, as you can have less energy to do the cardio. This was the case for me. Running 7 miles not fasted > running 5 miles fasted.
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Absolutely in that scenario, I'm talking more like the people who start there day with 30min or so of cardio. I wouldn't attempt long distance running fasted, that's a recipe for wasting away
 
A lot of guys I've talked to that are more bodybuilding lifestyle ppl start there day with yohimbine or a l-carnitine injection then do there 30min cardio. Eat a couple meals then lift then whatever else they eat that day. I dont know what the difference is really so I'm not going to try to put up a argument with anyone. All I can say is i feel like i had my best cut starting my day with 20-30 min fasted cardio. That was last year when i went from 223 to 195 in about 8 to 10 weeks. Strength went down dramatically but my arm, quad and shoulder measurements stayed roughly the same. My midsection seemed to be the main area fat was lost
 
Smont said:
A lot of guys I've talked to that are more bodybuilding lifestyle ppl start there day with yohimbine or a l-carnitine injection then do there 30min cardio. Eat a couple meals then lift then whatever else they eat that day. I dont know what the difference is really so I'm not going to try to put up a argument with anyone. All I can say is i feel like i had my best cut starting my day with 20-30 min fasted cardio. That was last year when i went from 223 to 195 in about 8 to 10 weeks. Strength went down dramatically but my arm, quad and shoulder measurements stayed roughly the same. My midsection seemed to be the main area fat was lost
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I think that was my damage control log. The fat was piled on quickly from a 6 week super dirty bulk and it came back off almost as fast
 
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