Steroid or Prohormone that helps cut visceral fat

[mrrobot]

I should have said *I* cannot find any counter studies for the anavar vs. test and deca visceral fat results.

Yes I understand AAS are understudied from our perspective. But just because bodybuilders are different is not a reason to dismiss all studies, in my opinion. You can use this logic to dismiss literally anything, about anything in the world at all.

 

[KvanH]

Perhaps touching the cortisol pathway could help? There's a relationship between cortisol and visceral fat.

This is what I was thinking. Many cort control supps are at least marketed for fat loss and I think specifically for viskeral fat. 11-KT and b-aet comes to mind. But then again doesn't most aas lower cortisol quite a lot too? Since it's said that it would be beneficial to have some cort control supp in pct to battle cort rebound.

 

[KvanH]

on paper you would think if intensity were the same that running on a treadmill would = running outdoors, but in my many years of both, outdoors running where you are actually covering distance is far superior to indoor treadmill.

And far more enjoyable!

 

[KvanH]

Running/intense cardio will cause muscle loss, unless you're eating a surplus of calories to cover the loss to cardio. Even then, you'll lose some muscle.

If you're eating right and training hard, you should be able to put that muscle back on without putting the fat back on. That's the key to success imo.

Hmm.. I've allways thought this to be a myth from the 90's when bb'ers were afraid that cardio eats their muscles.

 

[Smont]

I wasn't really trying to say your relying on hormones over diet. I worded that poorly. If your no longer going to adjust diet or increase cardio then the things I listed are what's going to help.

As for the berberine, I've boxed on and off my whole life. Wrestled for about 20 years and lifted weights on and off from age 12 to 36. I just started using berberine this year and there is absolutely no decrease in performance. No study there is can prove my real world experience wrong on that

 

[Whisky]

I should have said *I* cannot find any counter studies for the anavar vs. test and deca visceral fat results.

Yes I understand AAS are understudied from our perspective. But just because bodybuilders are different is not a reason to dismiss all studies, in my opinion. You can use this logic to dismiss literally anything, about anything in the world at all.

no I agree with you ironically, but the point I was agreeing with in the earlier post was that often studies/theory doesn’t pan out and user experience is a better measure in our world (to use my previous example, even when the studies showed that anabolics weren’t performance enhancing there was plenty of bodybuilders/sports people that knew they did)

the studies provide a good starting point and some ideas but unfortunately 60 yr old obese individuals with low testosterone (just an example cohort) will likely experience different outcomes than you or me.

I’ve seen the study you refer to btw, if you were going to use an anabolic and wanted to reduce visceral fat then I agree var is a sensible choice (with a trt dose of test) but the fat loss will be driven far more by a calorie deficit and exercise than var imo

 

[Smont]

I'm not saying studies are bad, there great. But il never let some study tell me what I've seen with my own eyes is wrong. I take studies with a grain of salt because every time I read one, I try it out and 99% of the time it didn't hold up to its claims

 

[KvanH]

It's not about perceived performance but about gains. With n=1 you have no way knowing what would happen without the berberine during the time period that just passed.

The research shows a pretty solid explanation about why muscle protein synthesis would be inhibited by berberine and metformin, having to do with AMPK, and they have clinical results to show this pans out in real people (meaning not gaining as much as others, rather than not gaining at all). However, my one question is does AAS overwhelm this significant decrease in muscle synthesis. Not tested, obviously, because, like, who cares what we want to know.

I think it's something to do with AMPK activation and mTOR activity not being able to happen simultaneuosly, like gh and insulin release. I remember reading something like that, but can't really remember how was it exactly. But in practice I don't know how it goes. There's plenty of time for both in 24 hours.

 

[KvanH]

There's something weird going on with me. It's not just me. This is curious and interesting to me, but maybe not to anyone else. I am looking for something to get at it that is beyond diet and cardio, which I already know, because I'm curious that way.

Anyways thanks for the mentions of the substances.

Have you asked a doctor about your issue?

 

[MadStax]

Hmm.. I've allways thought this to be a myth from the 90's when bb'ers where afraid that cardio eats their muscles.

No sir, you will experience muscle loss. Your body naturally wants to find balance. It knows it needs fat just in case you can't forage enough food one day. If you add/increase cardio, your body will drop fat, but it will also eat some muscle. I've seen this happen in people I personally train over the years. They can't increase caloric intake, because then they won't burn the fat, so they must sacrifice some muscle. It's a temporary loss though. Returning to higher intensity lifting and dropping the cardio will bring the muscle back quickly and without the fat. This is why the old cut/bulk/cut strategy works so well. We can of course put drugs into our bodies to alter this, but at the end of the day, the body will fight back!

 

[Whisky]

I think it's something to do with AMPK activation and mTOR activity not being able to happen simultaneuosly, like gh and insulin release. I remember reading something like that, but can't really remember how was it exactly. But in practice I don't know how it goes. There's plenty of time for both in 24 hours.

this is an interesting one as I use both metformin and berberine (primarily for longevity but also for insulin sensitivity and glycemic variability)

I can’t say whether I would have made more gains without them but use of anabolics has certainly allowed me make gains while using them both (and there’s lots of jacked dudes in the longevity space who also use them).

but you also need to factor in that they allow for better use of hgh (or peptides) which bring their own benefits to the growth side of the equation so are you better not using metformin but not using hgh or using both? Who knows for sure.

by far my best lean (ish) bulk has included met, berb, test, deca, var and hgh (plus other stuff) so imo I would use met and berb with hgh as personal experience suggests that’s more beneficial to me

 

[mrrobot]

I wasn't really trying to say your relying on hormones over diet. I worded that poorly. If your no longer going to adjust diet or increase cardio then the things I listed are what's going to help.

As for the berberine, I've boxed on and off my whole life. Wrestled for about 20 years and lifted weights on and off from age 12 to 36. I just started using berberine this year and there is absolutely no decrease in performance. No study there is can prove my real world experience wrong on that

Sounds like we've led similar lives, training wise. I was a wrestler that went into fighting. I'm almost 20 years ahead of you, so watch out for that belly!

I still think you don't get the point that your perception of no decrease performance can't be compared with the alternate reality that branches off the moment you take the first berberine pill, where you do the same things, only without the berberine. There is no way for you to tell if your performance would have been better without it.

 

[mrrobot]

I think it's something to do with AMPK activation and mTOR activity not being able to happen simultaneuosly, like gh and insulin release. I remember reading something like that, but can't really remember how was it exactly. But in practice I don't know how it goes. There's plenty of time for both in 24 hours.

you are right that's the mechanism. but the inhibition lasts because the drug is in your system, and this pans out in observations of human studies: less gain from same exercise

 

[KvanH]

No sir, you will experience muscle loss. Your body naturally wants to find balance. It knows it needs fat just in case you can't forage enough food one day. If you add/increase cardio, your body will drop fat, but it will also eat some muscle. I've seen this happen in people I personally train over the years. They can't increase caloric intake, because then they won't burn the fat, so they must sacrifice some muscle. It's a temporary loss though. Returning to higher intensity lifting and dropping the cardio will bring the muscle back quickly and without the fat. This is why the old cut/bulk/cut strategy works so well. We can of course put drugs into our bodies to alter this, but at the end of the day, the body will fight back!

I've never seen it personally at least on a practical level and the coaches I've worked with have not mentioned it or and we've never shyed away from cardio (not that you said it should be avoided). I know the things you mention about fat loss and how body don't want to loose it all. I think this cardio and loss of muscles may come in play when you're trying to get to really low bf%, like under 10. As long as you're somewhere around 12+ I don't think cardio even being on a deficit wastes muscles if you lift hard and often enough. I think..

 

[mrrobot]

Have you asked a doctor about your issue?

my doctor has no interest in anything, and is fat

 

[KvanH]

my doctor has no interest in anything, and is fat

There are other doctors?

 

[mrrobot]

"I was interested in Berberine and Metformin but got turned off by the studies that show decreased positive effects from both cardio and resistance training"
wtf? thats nonsense!

I know! It's this thing they call Science!! It's so full of ****! What the **** dude bro. They even claim that science was the thing that created the steroids I'm taking. wtf?

 

[mrrobot]

PS thanks to most for being so patient and tolerant, all things considered. (no being ironic)

 

[MadStax]

Yes, I should mention that I personally try to stay around 7-8% body fat and most of my clients are trained the way I train. I think you're right that keeping a higher body fat percentage will help curb some of the catabolic losses. I've seen people with 20%+ body fat drop several percent and gain muscle while doing it. It's all about averages and the body's ability to find equilibrium.

 

[Whisky]

I know! It's this thing they call Science!! It's so full of ****! What the **** dude bro. They even claim that science was the thing that created the steroids I'm taking. wtf?

there absolutely was studies that showed a decrease in performance potentially from metformin (hadn’t seen the ones on berberine) but the best way I heard it described was that it wasn’t enough to be an issue unless you are elite and the small margins make the difference between winning and not

 

[KvanH]

PS thanks to most for being so patient and tolerant, all things considered. (no being ironic)

If going to look for the cort control products check out 11-KT, b-aet, 7-alpha-hydroxy-dhea, 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea. I don't know if they help your situation, but those are for cort control.

 

[KvanH]

Yes, I should mention that I personally try to stay around 7-8% body fat and most of my clients are trained the way I train. I think you're right that keeping a higher body fat percentage will help curb some of the catabolic losses. I've seen people with 20%+ body fat drop several percent and gain muscle while doing it. It's all about averages and the body's ability to find equilibrium.

You are one shredded dude I'll probably never be under 10 unless I become anorectic

 

[KvanH]

there absolutely was studies that showed a decrease in performance potentially from metformin (hadn’t seen the ones on berberine) but the best way I heard it described was that it wasn’t enough to be an issue unless you are elite and the small margins make the difference between winning and not

Not familiar with metformin, but I assume berberine to do more good than harm for almost anyone.

 

[Smont]

I just wanna throw out there that there are plenty of studies that say metformin increases athletic performance, especially in high intensity exercise

 

[mrrobot]

If going to look for the cort control products check out 11-KT, b-aet, 7-alpha-hydroxy-dhea, 7-beta-hydroxy-dhea. I don't know if they help your situation, but those are for cort control.

Thanks I will look into these.
I'm also going to learn more about non-alcohlic fatty liver (I do have elevated lipids but I thought that was from the aborted LGD I did shortly before testing), and also generally look at what to do about inflammation.
(And going to get a new HMO next year)

 

[mrrobot]

there absolutely was studies that showed a decrease in performance potentially from metformin (hadn’t seen the ones on berberine) but the best way I heard it described was that it wasn’t enough to be an issue unless you are elite and the small margins make the difference between winning and not

Berberine and Metformin act the same in terms of the specific issue at hand. I believe there is only one human study of this issue for berberine, and numerous animals studies for berberine, while as you know it's plentiful for metformin.

Here's where I read the same interpretation of metformin on high intensity VOX capacity:
Invalid Link Removed

Next comes the potential impact that metformin may have on exercise performance. In the study “Invalid Link Removed”, it was shown that metformin can significantly decrease VO2 max (–2.7%), peak heart rate (–2.0%), peak ventilation (–6.2%), peak resting energy expenditure (–3.0%), and actual exercise duration (–4.1%). While these reductions were certainly slight, and potentially non-significant for the average exercise enthusiasts, they do suggest that for a professional athlete (especially a professional endurance athlete), the use of metformin may spell the difference between a 1st place finish and not even making the podium! An even newer study, recently reported in the New York Times Invalid Link Removed, highlights that metformin has also, compared to a placebo, been shown to hamper endurance and limit mitochondrial proliferation in response to an exercise protocol! And as for muscle – the bad news is that Invalid Link Removed.

Metformin blunts muscle hypertrophy in response to progressive resistance exercise training in older adults: A randomized, double‐blind, placebo‐controlled, multicenter trial

I can admit that anything that says "less muscle" will stick in my mind and then it's very hard to get it out.
Maybe prozac can help with that?

 

[KvanH]

Berberine and Metformin act the same in terms of the specific issue at hand. I believe there is only one human study of this issue, and numerous animals studies for berberine, while as you know it's plentiful for metformin.

I can admit that anything that says "less muscle" will stick in my mind and then it's very hard to get it out.
Maybe prozac can help with that?

Prozac can induce fat gain.

 

[Whisky]

Berberine and Metformin act the same in terms of the specific issue at hand. I believe there is only one human study of this issue for berberine, and numerous animals studies for berberine, while as you know it's plentiful for metformin.

Here's where I read the same interpretation of metformin on high intensity VOX capacity:
Invalid Link Removed

Next comes the potential impact that metformin may have on exercise performance. In the study “Invalid Link Removed”, it was shown that metformin can significantly decrease VO2 max (–2.7%), peak heart rate (–2.0%), peak ventilation (–6.2%), peak resting energy expenditure (–3.0%), and actual exercise duration (–4.1%). While these reductions were certainly slight, and potentially non-significant for the average exercise enthusiasts, they do suggest that for a professional athlete (especially a professional endurance athlete), the use of metformin may spell the difference between a 1st place finish and not even making the podium! An even newer study, recently reported in the New York Times Invalid Link Removed, highlights that metformin has also, compared to a placebo, been shown to hamper endurance and limit mitochondrial proliferation in response to an exercise protocol! And as for muscle – the bad news is that Invalid Link Removed.

Metformin blunts muscle hypertrophy in response to progressive resistance exercise training in older adults: A randomized, double‐blind, placebo‐controlled, multicenter trial

I can admit that anything that says "less muscle" will stick in my mind and then it's very hard to get it out.
Maybe prozac can help with that?

lol, I’ve listened to that podcast bro (I’m a huge greenfield fan boy) and as you say the impact is slight in athletes.

this is an abstract from the study below. Yes metformin blunts inflammation which as we all know is part of the muscle building process.....but so do many supplements. They also used 1.7g a day, I would never suggest more than 1g a day our type usage

. There was a trend for blunted strength gains in metformin that did not reach statistical significance. Analyses of vastus lateralis muscle biopsies showed that metformin did not affect fiber hypertrophy, or increases in satellite cell or macrophage abundance with PRT. However, placebo had decreased type I fiber percentage while metformin did not (p = .007).

 

[Smont]

PS thanks to most for being so patient and tolerant, all things considered. (no being ironic)

Did you look into injectable sr9009 by any chance? I cant speak about real world results cus I haven't tried it or know anyone who has. But it was intended for the purposes I believe your looking for. Needs to be injected 2-3 × daily for best results so that's what typically keeps ppl away

 

[mrrobot]

Did you look into injectable sr9009 by any chance? I cant speak about real world results cus I haven't tried it or know anyone who has. But it was intended for the purposes I believe your looking for. Needs to be injected 2-3 × daily for best results so that's what typically keeps ppl away

You know, I was wondering about that. On paper the two SR compounds seem great but have no oral bioavailability, I haven't found enough credible reports on the injectable. Also not as easy for me to establish a reliable source, not like steroids where you can figure out who to trust fairly easily. I'm going to keep digging on that.

I actually like injecting myself. I'm weird that way.

 

[mrrobot]

lol, I’ve listened to that podcast bro (I’m a huge greenfield fan boy) and as you say the impact is slight in athletes.

this is an abstract from the study below. Yes metformin blunts inflammation which as we all know is part of the muscle building process.....but so do many supplements. They also used 1.7g a day, I would never suggest more than 1g a day our type usage

. There was a trend for blunted strength gains in metformin that did not reach statistical significance. Analyses of vastus lateralis muscle biopsies showed that metformin did not affect fiber hypertrophy, or increases in satellite cell or macrophage abundance with PRT. However, placebo had decreased type I fiber percentage while metformin did not (p = .007).

yeah greenfield is certainly not lacking in curiosity!
let him go first, I say.

 

[Smont]

You know, I was wondering about that. On paper the two SR compounds seem great but have no oral bioavailability, I haven't found enough credible reports on the injectable. Also not as easy for me to establish a reliable source, not like steroids where you can figure out who to trust fairly easily. I'm going to keep digging on that.

I actually like injecting myself. I'm weird that way.

I believe maresesrch still carries it and that company is solid, but I think they only ship to the us

 

[barische]

Invalid Link Removed

appears lowering insulin resistance is key = fasting.

anything to put you deeper into fast= AMPK activators (berberine, jiagulan, etc), ginger, ACV, turmeric

 

[BCseacow83]

It's not about perceived performance but about gains. With n=1 you have no way knowing what would happen without the berberine during the time period that just passed.

The research shows a pretty solid explanation about why muscle protein synthesis would be inhibited by berberine and metformin, having to do with AMPK, and they have clinical results to show this pans out in real people (meaning not gaining as much as others, rather than not gaining at all). However, my one question is does AAS overwhelm this significant decrease in muscle synthesis. Not tested, obviously, because, like, who cares what we want to know.

The study on metformin inhibiting mTor was performed on elderly eating 70g/day of protein. If that does not describe you then it means bugger all.

OP if you are loosing fat, as you claim, the visceral may just be the last to go. Keep doing what you are doing and eventually your body will have to loose the visceral as it will be the last stores left.

 

[Smont]

The study on metformin inhibiting mTor was performed on elderly eating 70g/day of protein. If that does not describe you then it means bugger all.

OP if you are loosing fat, as you claim, the visceral may just be the last to go. Keep doing what you are doing and eventually your body will have to loose the visceral as it will be the last stores left.

Also being on steroids is going to override a lot of things. I dont think any studies ever take steroid use as a factor and in the presence of anabolics I wouldn't be slightly concerned with something inhibiting muscle growth with the exception of high doses of t3

 

[BCseacow83]

Also being on steroids is going to override a lot of things. I dont think any studies ever take steroid use as a factor and in the presence of anabolics I wouldn't be slightly concerned with something inhibiting muscle growth with the exception of high doses of t3

Exactly. Even if we are natty one has to ask is the moderate reduction in temporary mtor expression going to overshadow the increase in insulin sensitivity? Perhaps there is still a net gain even with the mtor suppresion. Also as I said the metformin study was in elderly, who have a reduced sensitivity to leucines mtor trigger effects to begin with so it really does not apply to us. So many people in bodybuilding take drugs DESPITE known negative effects but are so quick to avoid a health promoting drug when one study alludes to one potential side effect lol.

At the end of the day if berberine or metformin stopped you from gaining you were DOING IT WRONG to begin with lol.

 

[Smont]

If there is one thing that has been drilled into my head by the biggest guys I know personally and from listening to bodybuilding related podcasts, it's that insulin sensitivity is king for building muscle and loosing fat. I'm trying now to put that in play so I can see for myself and that's why I started taking berberine in the first place.

 

[MadStax]

Exactly. Even if we are natty one has to ask is the moderate reduction in temporary mtor expression going to overshadow the increase in insulin sensitivity? Perhaps there is still a net gain even with the mtor suppresion. Also as I said the metformin study was in elderly, who have a reduced sensitivity to leucines mtor trigger effects to begin with so it really does not apply to us. So many people in bodybuilding take drugs DESPITE known negative effects but are so quick to avoid a health promoting drug when one study alludes to one potential side effect lol.

At the end of the day if berberine or metformin stopped you from gaining you were DOING IT WRONG to begin with lol.

Ok, this isn't entirely accurate. If you're not taking a sulfonylurea with the metformin, your body will produce less insulin over time, because your blood sugar will stay low. The only way to properly use metformin without some sort of insulin or insulin releasing drug, is to use it on a weekly or biweekly refeed.

I did a ton of reading on this subject and am about to embark on a cycle of metformin and sulfonylurea. Insulin scares the hell out of me, so this is a safer way for me to manipulate it and get my toes wet.

I'd highly suggest that anyone considering using these drugs put in the time to fully understand them and how they work. These are not something you can play with and have zero knowledge of.

 

[johnny412]

Ok, this isn't entirely accurate. If you're not taking a sulfonylurea with the metformin, your body will produce less insulin over time, because your blood sugar will stay low. The only way to properly use metformin without some sort of insulin or insulin releasing drug, is to use it on a weekly or biweekly refeed.

I did a ton of reading on this subject and am about to embark on a cycle of metformin and sulfonylurea. Insulin scares the hell out of me, so this is a safer way for me to manipulate it and get my toes wet.

I'd highly suggest that anyone considering using these drugs put in the time to fully understand them and how they work. These are not something you can play with and have zero knowledge of.

so the whole point of taking berberine is to produce less insulin...so you are saying take sulfonylurea with it...to counteract it lessening insulin? WTF! Makes zero sense lol!

 

[Smont]

Carbohydrates

 

[MadStax]

so the whole point of taking berberine is to produce less insulin...so you are saying take sulfonylurea with it...to counteract it lessening insulin? WTF! Makes zero sense lol!

If you don't want to lose muscle, yes. Obviously, you can work to build muscle, but you're fighting uphill against the drug. Also, I'm talking about metformin, which acts a bit differently.

 

[johnny412]

If you don't want to lose muscle, yes. Obviously, you can work to build muscle, but you're fighting uphill against the drug. Also, I'm talking about metformin, which acts a bit differently.

still makes no sense. not trying to attack you by the way...

 

[MadStax]

The mechanism of action on the muscle tissue is to reduce inflammation. Reducing inflammatory response by a muscle makes it harder to grow that muscle. Without putting in an increased effort, the muscle tissue would be lost over time.

 

[johnny412]

The mechanism of action on the muscle tissue is to reduce inflammation. Reducing inflammatory response by a muscle makes it harder to grow that muscle. Without putting in an increased effort, the muscle tissue would be lost over time.

metformin and berberine are not meant to have effect on muscle tissue at all

 

[MadStax]

metformin and berberine are not meant to have effect on muscle tissue at all

Metformin inhibits igf-1 and mTOR. Both of these are important for muscle growth. I honestly don't know much of anything about Berberine. Again, I'm speaking of Metformin here.

 

[MadStax]

metformin and berberine are not meant to have effect on muscle tissue at all

This explains it quite well:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Smont]

Metformin inhibits igf-1 and mTOR. Both of these are important for muscle growth. I honestly don't know much of anything about Berberine. Again, I'm speaking of Metformin here.

If your on a cycle those things are negligible. I completely understand what your saying and it makes sense, but I also think your overthinking it. If your on gear and eating a moderate to high carb diet then a lot if not all of those things your talking about dont really come into play anymore. If they did then either you wouldn't see these mammoths on stage or there would be a bunch of bodybuilders talking about this stuff. How to avoid the negative sides of these compounds. It's like nolva lowering igf, when your on gear its negligible and dosen't prevent muscle growth.

 

[johnny412]

If your on a cycle those things are negligible. I completely understand what your saying and it makes sense, but I also think your overthinking it. If your on gear and eating a moderate to high carb diet then a lot if not all of those things your talking about dont really come into play anymore. If they did then either you wouldn't see these mammoths on stage or there would be a bunch of bodybuilders talking about this stuff. How to avoid the negative sides of these compounds. It's like nolva lowering igf, when your on gear its negligible and dosen't prevent muscle growth.

thank you!

 

[Smont]

Mrrobot must hate us, he did ask a tough question but we really dragged it down the rabbit hole. Sorry mrrobot

 

[johnny412]

Mrrobot must hate us, he did ask a tough question but we really dragged it down the rabbit hole. Sorry mrrobot

still a supplement that helps fight fat tho so not too far off subject