Running Serm inverse to ADT??

Give you a little update here.

I dropped nolva down to 10mg a day. Today will be my last dose, ive been at 10 since monday. I dropped cab to 125mcg 2x's a week. I took a dose monday, and my last today.
I dropped ATD to 1 a day, since monday, today was my last dose. On monday i began RR and im dosing at 2 caps, i also started activate monday, dosing at 2 caps. I will probably up the RR to 3 caps tomarow. I may up the activate to 3 on monday, but i might wait till the 2 weeks mark and jump to 4.

My nipples\pecs have been a little itchy still. I felt some slight burning and some numb feeling today, i have to really think about it to notice though.

My lump on my left side in about nonexistant, and the lump on my right pec alittle inside my nipple is there, possibly a bit better. Not to much puffyness escecially early in the day.
Visually they look pretty normal i don't think anyone could notice anything abnormal no matter how hard they looked.

I'm not sure, but i could still be lactating, is there anyway to monitor this, sometimes i notice small white specs in the am. But also, this could be some of the acne stuff i put on my chest and anywhere else in the pm that could flake off while im sleeping.

thanks again.
 
preston25 said:
Oh yeah, What about taking RR by DS during my test prop cycle?
Click to expand...

That would work too. I agree that at 300mg or less, you may not need anything. I like letro myself at 0.1-0.25mg/d, depending on how estro prone you are.
 
ABiLiTY said:
... I'm not sure, but i could still be lactating, is there anyway to monitor this, sometimes i notice small white specs in the am. But also, this could be some of the acne stuff i put on my chest and anywhere else in the pm that could flake off while im sleeping.

thanks again.
Click to expand...

I hate to say it, but you may have to sqeeze them once to be sure. After that, don't do it again though! :)
 
Update.

Visual My nipps look pretty good. Still have small lumps on each side. I've had them for quite some time, 1 since puberty, they feel like they are never going to go away.
It seems like i get a light itch every morning. I don't know whats up with that.

Dr D, would it help to do one of those gyno reducing cycles you were talking about a bunch of pages back?

Thanks again
 
ABiLiTY said:
... Dr D, would it help to do one of those gyno reducing cycles you were talking about a bunch of pages back?

Thanks again
Click to expand...

It might, but it sounds like you may just have some fibrous development there and that is never going away. It's kind of like scar tissue. If that's the case, the best you can do is just keep estrogen levels down so that it doesn't become active again in the future and flare up. I have little lumps too that I have to watch carefully when on cycle, but they aren't bad and I have just come to accept it. For me, it only itches when I really screw up and don't use an AI on cycle. They almost totally go away off cycle, but never completely.
 
Mine seems to itch the next morning if i have a few beers, or if i smoke weed. although most of the time it doesn't itch in my nipple usually somewhere on my pecs.

Now i've herd of peeple doing like test and winstrol or something similar to reduce gyno. What are your thoughts on that? You think this would be good to test the waters for 4 weeks or so? run letro the whole time.

You also said something about deca, but would adding another aromatizing substance be harmful?

Thanks again Dr D.
 
Deca is a good anti-estrogen usually, but if estro levels get too high it can actually make it worse. Test is a great gyno reducer but the AI (letro) it crucial if you go that route. Any non-aromatizable oral is good too (winni, halo, superdrol) but with your system, I hesitate to recommend that because it just seems so unpredictable with you. You have responded atypically before and I don't want to give you bad advice.
 
thanks DR D. It sucks that i've responded weird to allot of things. Its crazy though I had done a bunch of m1t's (4 or so) and many others with no problems. Actually for awhile i was thinking test prop was hitting me to fast and raising my levels because i never had problems with test E.

Do you think i could up my activate to 4 caps this week?
 
ABiLiTY said:
... Do you think i could up my activate to 4 caps this week?
Click to expand...

Sure. May as well! Just keep an eye on your boobs (I mean 'pecs') and make sure they don't start getting angry at you. They shouldn't but I just don't know with you Ability. Be cautious.
 
somewhatgifted said:
Yeah sorry. halodrol. you meant halotestin then didnt you?
Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry. I forget that Halo means Halodrol these days! OK, that shows how old I am. (lol)
 
DR.D said:
It might, but it sounds like you may just have some fibrous development there and that is never going away. It's kind of like scar tissue. If that's the case, the best you can do is just keep estrogen levels down so that it doesn't become active again in the future and flare up. I have little lumps too that I have to watch carefully when on cycle, but they aren't bad and I have just come to accept it. For me, it only itches when I really screw up and don't use an AI on cycle. They almost totally go away off cycle, but never completely.
Click to expand...

So, surgery is the only way to go in that case to get rid of it completely, right?
Also, do you think that it may develop at all into a cancer?
 
Surgery is the true solution and yes, cancer is always a threat with any unscheduled metastic growth. I would be more worried about prostate cancer after years of juice than breast though. Still, with all the damn pseudo-estrogens in the environment these days, breast cancer in men will only increase and gyno can't be good in the long run.
 
Dr D, I upped the activate to 4 caps on monday. Early today i got a decent amount of itchyness in my pecs more then usuall. I dont know if this is from the activate or my weekend. I also used IBE's new pre workout product yesterday, maybe it has something to do with the caffine in it.

I've also got more prostatic fluid issues since monday. Can these things have anything to with in increased dosage of adderal?

Also, you said superdrol is a good choice for peeple with pre-existing gyno, but doesn't it cause an increase in progesterone?

thank again Doc D
 
Dr.D, Could you please tell me of a link or thread which explains vial amounts. I just received my test prop 100. I understand that 100mg/ml = 1000mg. How is this? I ordered two vials of at 1000mg ea. for my 6 week cycle. Sorry to intrude on this thread with question.
 
ABiLiTY said:
Dr D, I upped the activate to 4 caps on monday. Early today i got a decent amount of itchyness in my pecs more then usuall. I dont know if this is from the activate or my weekend. I also used IBE's new pre workout product yesterday, maybe it has something to do with the caffine in it.

I've also got more prostatic fluid issues since monday. Can these things have anything to with in increased dosage of adderal?

Also, you said superdrol is a good choice for peeple with pre-existing gyno, but doesn't it cause an increase in progesterone?

thank again Doc D
Click to expand...

The IBE stim is OK, except be aware of the caffeine like you said. Keep an eye on the ActivaTe and be ready to stop if it get's too symptomatic. I'm not sure about the Adderal, but I took it for 10+ years and it never did that too me. It sounds like you may have a prostate infection or something. It also sounds like what happens to me at the very beginning of PCT sometimes, I'm just not sure what's doing that in you though. You have become a complicated case my man! Yeah, SD should not aggravate pre-existing gyno, but it may not be androgenic enough to really help it dramatically in your situation. SD doesn't increase progesterone, it's an oral so it's mildly progestinic on it's own, but not much.
 
preston25 said:
Dr.D, Could you please tell me of a link or thread which explains vial amounts. I just received my test prop 100. I understand that 100mg/ml = 1000mg. How is this? I ordered two vials of at 1000mg ea. for my 6 week cycle. Sorry to intrude on this thread with question.
Click to expand...

I don't understand what you mean? If it's 100mg/ml, it must have 10mls in it if you bought 1000mg vials.
 
Yeah they are 10ml vials. In that case it would be 1000mg. My confusion is meauring the amount in the syringe. On a 3cc syringe each bar equals how many mg?
 
preston25 said:
Yeah they are 10ml vials. In that case it would be 1000mg. My confusion is meauring the amount in the syringe. On a 3cc syringe each bar equals how many mg?
Click to expand...


I ran into a similar problem (had a 3/10cc syringe)
1cc = 1ml, so you can gauge from that.
 
ABiLiTY said:
Dr D

It used to happen to me just in post cycle therapy.

I think im going to stay at 2 activates, beneficial?
Click to expand...

It sounds better for now, yeah, but you know your body best.
 
Dr D isn't winny mostly anabolic? and light at that?

I forgot to tell you about a week and a half ago i sqeezed my nipps pretty hard and nothin came out....exiting stuff right there lol.
 
ABiLiTY said:
Dr D isn't winny mostly anabolic? and light at that?

I forgot to tell you about a week and a half ago i sqeezed my nipps pretty hard and nothin came out....exiting stuff right there lol.
Click to expand...

Yes about winni. Good progress!
 
Dr D, Expeirenced please critque using inverse method

Whats goin on guys, new to the forum and am planning on doing my first cycle of Methyl-Drol. I wont be starting the cycle for about 3 weeks because I wanted to get everything situated and limit as many problems as possible. Ive basically treated this as a superdrol cycle, however Ive never done any gear before other then a 6 day Orasten E cycle that somehow landed me in the hospital on the 6th day with prostatitis... Teaching me to never wing anything ever again

My stats. 21 years old 5 '7 190 12-13 percent bf. Im currently using animal pump but other then that just the usual multi vitamin and occational serving of glutamine. I rely on food not cell tech.

Heres my cycle info

Methyl-Drol XT Cycle

Week 1 Every day

Methyl-Drol XT 10 mg
Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
Propecia (Fin.) for prostate 1mg every day “I’ve had prostatitis before”

Week 2 Every Day

Methyl-Drol XT 20 mg
Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
Propecia (Fin.) 1 mg

Week 3 Every Day

Methyl-Drol XT 20 mg
Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
Propecia (Fin.) 1 mg

Week 4 Post Cycle Therapy

NolvaDex Serm 40mg
SNS Inhibit E 25 mg
Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
Propecia (Fin.) 1 mg

Week 5 Post Cycle Therapy

NolvaDex Serm 30 mg
SNS Inhibit E 50 mg
Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
Propecia (Fin.) 1 mg

Week 6 Post Cycle Therapy

NolvaDex Serm 20mg
SNS Inhibit E 50 mg
Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
Propecia (Fin.) 1 mg

Week 7 Post Cycle Therapy

NolvaDex Serm 10mg
SNS Inhibit E 75 mg
Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support
Propecia (Fin.) 1 mg



Basically how is it? Is there a need for propecia, I dont want ANY prostate hypertrophy every again, that was scary ****. Is there anything I can cut out / add / replace. This cycle is kinna pricy however if everythings neccesary Id rather spend the cash for safety.

Is anything better then Inhibit E or will that satisfy my needs for the inverse method from Dr D?

I will be getting bloodwork before and after just to make sure everything in check.

id appreciate any advice anyone can offer
 
As far as I know, SNS' Inhibit-E is the same compound as Rebound XT so you're okay there.

I've had prostatitis before as well (caused by a kick to the groin in a martial arts class) and it was not fun at all, I agree with you. I was on heavy anti-biotics for three months to clear it up. I'm confused about your comment about prostate hypertrophy however, I was under the impression that prostatitis is a bacterial infection of the prostate and not an enlarging of the organ (as in BPH). In any case, I never take anything else besides saw palmetto for the prostate while cycling. Good luck.
 
Ninjo said:
As far as I know, SNS' Inhibit-E is the same compound as Rebound XT so you're okay there.

I've had prostatitis before as well (caused by a kick to the groin in a martial arts class) and it was not fun at all, I agree with you. I was on heavy anti-biotics for three months to clear it up. I'm confused about your comment about prostate hypertrophy however, I was under the impression that prostatitis is a bacterial infection of the prostate and not an enlarging of the organ (as in BPH). In any case, I never take anything else besides saw palmetto for the prostate while cycling. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your advice bro

Prostatits can be bacterial or non bacterial, acute or hmm thinking of the word... Long lasting. I had acute and went on antibiotics. I just meant prostate hypertrophy in how the prostate enlarges due to either an infection or high amounts of test. converting to something I forgot the name hahaha.

Whats your usual dosage of palmetto before, on , and post ?

Thanks again

Adam
 
Iziromeoizi,

That looks fine, but there is no DHT conversion with this oral plus it is very non-androgenic so if anything, it may even shrink the prostate a little! I don't think you really need the Propecia but if it makes you feel safer it's OK. I also think you could drop to 20mg Nolva by wk2 and and hold the inhibit-e at 50mg instead of actually going to 75, but this is just fine tuning and what you proposed if just fine (a little overkill maybe but fine). I am wondering why they treated you with AB's if your prostatitis was Orasten induced?
 
iziromeoizi said:
Whats your usual dosage of palmetto before, on , and post ?

Thanks again

Adam
Click to expand...
I usually take in 320mg a day split into two equal doses of 160mg (i.e. one in the morning and one in the evening). If the compound while on is known to be very androgenic (e.g. Phera-plex), I will usually double the daily dosage to be on the safe side. Dosage for PCT is the same as while off.
 
DR.D said:
Iziromeoizi,

That looks fine, but there is no DHT conversion with this oral plus it is very non-androgenic so if anything, it may even shrink the prostate a little! I don't think you really need the Propecia but if it makes you feel safer it's OK. I also think you could drop to 20mg Nolva by wk2 and and hold the inhibit-e at 50mg instead of actually going to 75, but this is just fine tuning and what you proposed if just fine (a little overkill maybe but fine). I am wondering why they treated you with AB's if your prostatitis was Orasten induced?
Click to expand...

Thanks alot Dr. D! Ill take your advice and drop the nolva to a 40 20 20 10 scheme, and hold the Inhibit E at 25 50 50 50

Also ill use Palmetto insted of the propecia.

No freaking clue, the er doc said the ultra sound claimed it was bacterial, It was def some freaky stuff tho, took about a month to feel normal and it still hints to me that its there now and then. My AST and ALT liver values were also elevated quite high. I Wonder how long it takes to really do dammage to ur liver? Im sure 7 weeks of Drol and Nolva will give it some problems but my values should return to normal soon after? Im getting a blood test this week to see and hope there normal, if not im gonna hold off on the cycle before they return .


Thanks again and to everyone who comments!

Adam
 
iziromeoizi said:
... I Wonder how long it takes to really do dammage to ur liver? Im sure 7 weeks of Drol and Nolva will give it some problems but my values should return to normal soon after?
Click to expand...

It usually takes high doses for long runs, but some people react very fast because of some idiosyncrasy or other medication they're on that stacks bad, so it's impossible to say 100%. I've had elevated enzymes with Nolva, but not really with drol. It seems to be more dose rather than time related. In general, if you keep the dose reasonable, you can stay on a long time before there are problems (in general, not always). Do you remember what AB they were giving you?
 
DR.D said:
It usually takes high doses for long runs, but some people react very fast because of some idiosyncrasy or other medication they're on that stacks bad, so it's impossible to say 100%. I've had elevated enzymes with Nolva, but not really with drol. It seems to be more dose rather than time related. In general, if you keep the dose reasonable, you can stay on a long time before there are problems (in general, not always). Do you remember what AB they were giving you?
Click to expand...

They put my on Ciprofloxacin HCL 500 mg Taran, that was back in the summer...
 
yeahright said:
Whoa....that was some infection you had.
Click to expand...

Hahaha on the 6th day I awoke at 6 30 to severe chills, ackes, and it felt like a golf ball was shot into my well u get the picture. After lying against the tile floor for 30 min in a hot shower and feeling like I was high of codine for 8 hours the next day The ER was the logical step.
 
just out of curiosity... since drol has no estrogen activity how is gyno a possibilty during the on part of the cycle.

if signs of gyno start to occur should the cycle be stopped and immediatley start pct with the same dosage of nolva 40 20 20 10. or is there a standard nolva dosage for gyno symtoms?

What if it starts during pct as I know estrogen levels like to be sneaky devils then?

All in all id prob run like a baby to the doctor, but its just good to be knowledge, that and my doc prob wouldnt have a clue of what to do.

My cycle starts in about 2 and a half weeks, im kinna excited
 
DR.D said:
It usually takes high doses for long runs, but some people react very fast because of some idiosyncrasy or other medication they're on that stacks bad, so it's impossible to say 100%. I've had elevated enzymes with Nolva, but not really with drol. It seems to be more dose rather than time related. In general, if you keep the dose reasonable, you can stay on a long time before there are problems (in general, not always). Do you remember what AB they were giving you?
Click to expand...

Would adding activate to my pct be dangerous for my prostate? if not should I just stick to 2 caps per day?
 
iziromeoizi said:
just out of curiosity... since drol has no estrogen activity how is gyno a possibilty during the on part of the cycle.

if signs of gyno start to occur should the cycle be stopped and immediatley start post cycle therapy with the same dosage of nolva 40 20 20 10. or is there a standard nolva dosage for gyno symtoms?

What if it starts during post cycle therapy as I know estrogen levels like to be sneaky devils then?

All in all id prob run like a baby to the doctor, but its just good to be knowledge, that and my doc prob wouldnt have a clue of what to do.

My cycle starts in about 2 and a half weeks, im kinna excited
Click to expand...

It's always possible because you never know, but it is very unlikely and will only help pre-existing gyno in the majority of cases. Nolva could be used or any other SERM for that matter. I have teated gyno very successfully with Clomid too, though it took a few more weeks to clear up that it probably would have with Nolva.
 
iziromeoizi said:
Would adding activate to my post cycle therapy be dangerous for my prostate? if not should I just stick to 2 caps per day?
Click to expand...

No! It's actually great for the prostate, so go ahead and include it. However, I would suggest a different product called MassFX. It contains a superior formula to anything else out there with nettle based composition right now. I'm currently doing a post cycle therapy with it actually. ;)
 
DR.D said:
No! It's actually great for the prostate, so go ahead and include it. However, I would suggest a different product called MassFX. It contains a superior formula to anything else out there with nettle based composition right now. I'm currently doing a post cycle therapy with it actually. ;)
Click to expand...

Hahah thanks doc. ur the man.

About the gyno. Since puberty ive always had kinna puffy nipples/ alittle more glanduar tissue, would that be considered pre gyno? hence making me more suscepital to it?

Heres a pics everyone can be the judge.
the side tricep pose is when i was one month into cutting down. The other three are NOW a good 3 months into bulking So I Do have more fat on my pectorals.




I wish I would of known about ur recomendation for the mass fx .I saw people using activate with good results so I already ordered some.

Are there any good books you could recommend concerning cycles, the eucin system, overal systomatic breakdowns of juicy juice? For sum reason the subject facinates me.
 

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iziromeoizi said:
Hahah thanks doc. ur the man.

About the gyno. Since puberty ive always had kinna puffy nipples/ alittle more glanduar tissue, would that be considered pre gyno? hence making me more suscepital to it?

Heres a pics everyone can be the judge.
the side tricep pose is when i was one month into cutting down. The other three are NOW a good 3 months into bulking So I Do have more fat on my pectorals.




I wish I would of known about ur recomendation for the mass fx .I saw people using activate with good results so I already ordered some.

Are there any good books you could recommend concerning cycles, the eucin system, overal systomatic breakdowns of juicy juice? For sum reason the subject facinates me.
Click to expand...

Unless you have dense tissue behind that nipple puffiness, you are OK. It's just fat deposition if it's very soft. It could be overactive estrogen metabolism or excess caffeine or even smoking favors fat deposition on the chest of men (even though it has an over-all androgenic effect) so who knows, could be genetic as a disposition like you thought too. The best way to fight that is do chest work (bench at least) and use an AI. Staying real lean is really the only other thing that fixes it right? And it's hard to stay that lean all the time, especially when bulking!

Don't get me wrong, Activate is good stuff and does work so if you have it use it in PCT. I was just saying that if you had a choice, go with MassFX next time. It's formula is much stronger and also more efficient.

Haha, yeah lots of books, none of them "good" ones though! (lol) You may read them all and keep only 10% from each of them. That's really what good boards like this are for. You'll pick it up with time my friend.
 
DR.D said:
Unless you have dense tissue behind that nipple puffiness, you are OK. It's just fat deposition if it's very soft. It could be overactive estrogen metabolism or excess caffeine or even smoking favors fat deposition on the chest of men (even though it has an over-all androgenic effect) so who knows, could be genetic as a disposition like you thought too. The best way to fight that is do chest work (bench at least) and use an AI. Staying real lean is really the only other thing that fixes it right? And it's hard to stay that lean all the time, especially when bulking!

Don't get me wrong, Activate is good stuff and does work so if you have it use it in post cycle therapy. I was just saying that if you had a choice, go with MassFX next time. It's formula is much stronger and also more efficient.

Haha, yeah lots of books, none of them "good" ones though! (lol) You may read them all and keep only 10% from each of them. That's really what good boards like this are for. You'll pick it up with time my friend.
Click to expand...

there is dense tissue NOT behind the nipple but behind the Areola. When I flex it dissopears. Do All men have glands on there breasts?. This has been there my whole life and not related to anabolic steroids use, considering ive only done that Orasten A for 6 days and it was there years before I tried it.

One day I will be a plastic surgeon on like on nip tuck and do everyones gyno for free. Thanks for the advice doc

Adam
 
All men have ducts. All you can do if they grow too large is cut them out if they don't respond to the chemo treatments first.
 
hartmann_gr said:
Hi all!

New member here. I was rather fascinated by this thread. My congrats to all and especially Dr D who has the unbelievable patience to answer all questions of ours!

So, bumping up this thread I feel doing some questions on the post cycle therapy Dr D suggests and which I find really good!



Here are my questions:

1. What is the purpose of throwing DHEA in there? Libido enhancemnet?

2. Would you suggest a replacement of RXT with RR in exact same protocol? Whould then DHEA be needed? (After all RR is ADT + libido enhancement, right?)

3. I am generally againts use of clomid due to its weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary and I use nolva. So in a PCT having as a serm only Nolva whould it start form 60mg/w from week 1? Most PCT protocols I have read suggest 20mg of nolvadex for about 6 weeks... why 60mg/d is suggested here? Isn't that too high?

Just those for the time being. :)

Nice to be here! Dr D hope you find the time to answer the above...
Click to expand...

Hi Hartmann!

First let me say sorry for the slow response and second I'm glad the PCT has worked well for you. To answer the questions:

1) Yes, libido elevation for one, but DHEA also acts as a cortisol antagonist which is crucial in PCT. It is the nature of products like Retain and Lean Xtreme (which I also recommend in the above PCT to reinforce the DHEA in the first 3 weeks). They are designed for fight cortisol in PCT, but DHEA is also a fair androgen so you get the libido boost too with no endogenous suppression if the dosing is done right. Not only that, your body needs DHEA. It is the most abundant steroid in the human body and during PCT you want to get those levels back in balance.
2) Good point! I would still add the DHEA, but you could probably cut the dose in half and see how that does you. Like I stated above, it does more than just sustain libido, unless you are replacing RXT with RR and using a some specific cortisol antagonist too, at least in the first 3-4wks, then you could probably eliminate the DHEA all together unless libido was hit and then I would put it back in.
3) It may be. If you are young and fairly new to cycles, you can probably respond well to 40,20,20 or something like that. I just don't like Nolva's toxicity ranking and the fact that it is a known human carcinogen. You may as well drink and smoke on PCT too! Haha, don't get me started with the whole Clomid/Nolva issue. :p
 
hartmann_gr said:
Dr. D, thanks for your reply! a couple of more questions

1) Consider the folowing. Coming off a 12-14 week steroid test cylce, where arimidex is used as a non-sterodial AI, i am definately using HCG in my post cycle therapy. So I believe, having the estrogen already "controlled" and using Nolva at PCT, I would like the ADT mainly to control the estrogen rush caused by HCG administartion. The greater affinity to aromatase enzyme that the ADT has over the RR, I believe is better suited for this purpose. So, I would only use it for the HCG administartion period 3-4weeks (similar to the use of aromasin in Antony Roberts PCT artile) and would not inverse taper it. what do you think on this?.

2) For cortisol control what would you suggest as your favourite-best.? beside vit C which is a must and DHEA which I like, which of the following would you use?
LXT, Retain, remeron, kynoselen, clenbuterol

3) Do tribulus and/or fenugreek act synergistically to the SERM and make a PCT more "complete"? what way would you use them?


I would really appriciate an answer!

Thank you!!! :)
Click to expand...

OK...
1) Yes, that sounds perfect. Any steroidal AI will do. 25-50mg RXT is perfect for estro control w/ the hCG. No taper is needed and it keeps the effects fresh from the tropin.
2) DHEA will likely help a lot on it's own so 1 Retain in addition w/ that should get it done and about 7.5-15mg Remeron at night helps too, unless you're on a diet and then the munchies are quite pronounced with Rem!
3) Oh yes, big time. Trib and/or Fen w/ SERM is synergistic no doubt. Clomid/fen and Toremifene/trib are particularly good combos.
 
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