Resistance in the Armed Forces

[lutherblsstt]

Bull****. We raped the Germans and Japanese, falcon-punched their asses, yet there's no Japanese and German al Qaeda, no terrorists coming to get the US. Muslim terror is a cultural thing; many people are FAR more oppressed around the world, but don't resort to suicide terror and mass killing of innocents to express their outrage and pain.

Why did 9/11 happen? Bin Laden expressly said he wanted the US out of Saudi Arabia, and wanted to unite the Arab world and bring back the super-power that was under the caliphate. His war was, and is, a power grab. Fair enough, but don't paint it as something it isn't. Keep in mind the Saudi's reap HUGE rewards from their relationship with the US, and do not at all like OBL. He tried to impose his brand of politics on them, but note he did not attack them, he attacked the US.

There is no cycle of violence. There's a religion with ambiguous morality that fosters violence, and a leadership which utilizes it for the same.

Why did 9/11 happen? Let's check out the 9-11 Commission hearings and see what the FBI says about it:

YouTube - What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't



Also:


The Japanese and Germans are not the Arabs,Pashtuns,Tamils,etc. To expect all groups to react to foreign troops being stationed on their soil is asinine at best.


The "suicide bomber" as (s)he is known was first the chosen mode of war of the Tamils of Sri Lanka. As a matter of fact "the world's leading suicide terrorist group is the Tamil Tigers."

Their objective was and has been clear: to establish a separate homeland for the beleagured Tamils in Sri Lanka.


From the VOA site:

"University of Chicago Professor Robert Pape has collected evidence and developed a database on more than 300 suicide attacks that have occurred around the world since 1980.

Mr. Pape is the director of the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism, and has just published a book called Dying to Win, the Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism.

During a recent appearance on the VOA public affairs program, Press Conference USA, Mr. Pape says his research indicates that, every major suicide campaign has what he calls a secular and political goal, to compel democracies to withdraw military forces from areas the bombers view as their territory.

"Iraq is a prime example of the strategic logic of suicide terrorism. Before the American invasion in March 2003, Iraq never experienced a suicide terrorist attack in its history. Since the invasion of 2003, suicide terrorism has been growing rapidly. Suicide terrorism has doubled in Iraq every year that 140,000 American combat forces have been stationed in the country, and we are on pace now to set a new record for the year."

Mr. Pape says suicide terrorism is not primarily a product of Islamic fundamentalism, although he says religion is used as a recruiting and fundraising tool.

He says the world's leading suicide terrorist group is the Tamil Tigers, a secular Hindu group in Sri Lanka.

Mr. Pape says the Tamil Tigers have committed more suicide attacks than the Palestinian militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

He says the objective of compelling countries to withdraw military forces from territory the terrorists perceive as occupied has been the central goal of suicide campaigns in Lebanon, Israel, Sri Lanka and among separatists in the Russian republic of Chechnya and the disputed region of Kashmir, which is divided between India and Pakistan.

"Suicide terrorism is mainly a response to the presence of foreign military troops, that is mainly a response to the threat of foreign occupation, not Islamic fundamentalism," he said. "This is a terribly important finding, because it means that the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies is only likely to increase suicide terrorists coming at us."

Mr. Pape says his study of hundreds of suicide bombers who actually killed themselves to kill others indicates that most are educated and do not fit the common profile of a person who engages in self-destructive behavior. "What you see is very few fit the standard stereotype of a depressed, lonely individual on the margins of society seeking to escape some wretched existence. That is, very few are suicidal in the ordinary sense of that term. Instead, most are socially integrated, productive members of their community," he said.

Also

"Mr. Pape says, to defeat suicide terrorism, the United States should return to what he calls offshore balancing in the Persian Gulf area.

He says during the 1970's and 1980's, the United States successfully managed its interests in the region by not permanently stationing troops in Muslim countries, but maintaining the ability to rapidly deploy military forces to hot spots when necessary."

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-07/2005-07-22-voa1.cfm?CFID=254537396&CFTOKEN=42091880&jsessionid=8430c51b45bd6ee4f860b3722a39521e233a

 

[poison]

Again, WTF did I say? The violent muslim campaigns are power grabs, plain and simple. From your post:

Mr. Pape says his research indicates that, every major suicide campaign has what he calls a secular and political goal, to compel democracies to withdraw military forces from areas the bombers view as their territory.

Key word 'view'. It's not their territory, they WANT it to be theirs, So they blow everyone the f up.

 

[TexasTitan]

I actually reenlisted in order to be able to go. We provided air support for the active bombing raids on Iraq, when Saddam ejected he weapons inspectors for the last time.

I believe(d) in the cause at that time, and the actions of containment/disablement that we practiced. Had I vehemently disagreed, I would have refused.

It takes a pretty damn big ego to be so arrogant you think you should only have to fight for things you want to fight for.

And to never answer PMs.

 

[poison]

It takes a pretty damn big ego to be so arrogant you think you should only have to fight for things you want to fight for as a sworn volunteer to the US military.

Edited for accuracy.

dsade, what if a soldier vehemently disagrees with the order to clean the latrine, run 20 miles, or head straight into enemy fire? At what point CAN'T a soldier refuse?

 

[dsade]

Edited for accuracy.

dsade, what if a soldier vehemently disagrees with the order to clean the latrine, run 20 miles, or head straight into enemy fire? At what point CAN'T a soldier refuse?

I don't see any moral, principle, or constitutional objection to latrine, running (unless of course it would cause permenent injury and there are other cardiovbascular options)...but if he objection to running into nemy fire is based on pacifism, first one should not have volunteered for service....if not, need to know more details.
Look at the invasion of Kuwait simply put. The iraqi army was acting immorally and the most rudimentary halfwit would hve known, based on the rights of others, that the act was immoral. Following orders in this case does not absolve you of the "murders" you would be committing. Now...in this situation some kuwaitis were returning defensive fire and you were ordered t storm...now, not only would the initial acts be on your head, but you are also being ordered by immoral superiors to die for this cause.

Refuse? As I stated, we are men first...and it is up to each man to decide his life, and take the consequences.

And TT, i'm sorry I didn't jump right on your PM from 2 days ago....right now I am about 2 weeks behind, and working between 14 and 18 hours a day. forgive me....however, I rescind my intention to send you some free product to help with your condition andc ircumstances, since you chose to behave as you did.

 

[TexasTitan]

And TT, i'm sorry I didn't jump right on your PM from 2 days ago....right now I am about 2 weeks behind, and working between 14 and 18 hours a day. forgive me....however, I rescind my intention to send you some free product to help with your condition andc ircumstances, since you chose to behave as you did.

Actually youve never responded to anything Ive sent you. I didnt really behave badly at all. I voiced an opinion that you disagreed with. I wont kiss your ass, be a nut swinger or butt buddy to take advantage of whatever kindness you may have extended. If you can separate one opinion from the rest of a person, you might see that. You make quality products all around so thats why I keep purchasing but that doesnt mean I shouldnt have an opinion. If you want me to not "behave badly," Id tell you not to be so petty. I think it takes a huge ego to be so arrogant to think you personally know better than the elected leaders and countless people who run this country. That you think your life and service, or lack thereof, is more important than being there to support your brothers. For that reason alone, I can say I wouldnt refuse. For me, it wouldnt be about what Im fighting for, Id be sent where I was told and perform the duties like a solider but would be there to protect the man next to me, not my own ass. Sorry you feel that voicing an opinion you disagree with is behaving badly. And you cant rescind something you never offered in the first place.

 

[dsade]

Actually youve never responded to anything Ive sent you. I didnt really behave badly at all. I voiced an opinion that you disagreed with. You make quality products all around so thats why I keep purchasing but that doesnt mean I shouldnt have an opinion. If you want me to not "behave badly," Id tell you not to be so petty. I think it takes a huge ego to be so arrogant to think you personally know better than the elected leaders and countless people who run this country. That you think your life and service, or lack thereof, is more important than being there to support your brothers. For that reason alone, I can say I wouldnt refuse. For me, it wouldnt be about what Im fighting for, Id be sent where I was told and perform the duties like a solider but would be there to protect the man next to me, not my own ass. Sorry you feel that voicing an opinion is behaving badly.

I just checked my entire PM box and I have a grand total of ONE PM from you. I have a horrible habit of not deleting any PMs.

You have a right to your opinion, as I have a right to mine. Having seen both elected officials, and command in action, I can tell you for the most part they are both not too bright and not selflessly motivated in the least - not to mention often outright dishonest. Our country is set up as the INDIVIDUAL being the prime unit of society - not the society itself. THis means it is immoral to sacrifice an unwilling participant for benefit of one, two, three, a hundred, a million, etc.

And, since the ultimate guardian of the individual IS the individual, if you want to abdicate your role as your own protector and unquestioningly swallow anything you are told by someone with one more stripe than you - have at it. The government, in its modern form, has proven itself one of the most corrupt and incompetent organizations that has EVER existed. I have zero problem fighting for a cause I believe in - or at the CORE OF THE MILITARY CREED, DEFENSE OF MY COUNTRY AND COUTRYMEN. I am not, however, an attack dog to be set loose upon others for the interests of the power elite.

 

[dsade]

TT....just to demonstrate that I actually welcome discussion and debate, If you still want to run an extended log on the products you mentioned...shoot me an email at mpearson at recomp dot com.

 

[TexasTitan]

I just checked my entire PM box and I have a grand total of ONE PM from you. I have a horrible habit of not deleting any PMs.

You have a right to your opinion, as I have a right to mine. Having seen both elected officials, and command in action, I can tell you for the most part they are both not too bright and not selflessly motivated in the least - not to mention often outright dishonest. Our country is set up as the INDIVIDUAL being the prime unit of society - not the society itself. THis means it is immoral to sacrifice an unwilling participant for benefit of one, two, three, a hundred, a million, etc.

And, since the ultimate guardian of the individual IS the individual, if you want to abdicate your role as your own protector and unquestioningly swallow anything you are told by someone with one more stripe than you - have at it. The government, in its modern form, has proven itself one of the most corrupt and incompetent organizations that has EVER existed. I have zero problem fighting for a cause I believe in - or at the CORE OF THE MILITARY CREED, DEFENSE OF MY COUNTRY AND COUTRYMEN. I am not, however, an attack dog to be set loose upon others for the interests of the power elite.

Ive worked in politics, I know about politicians and went through military school and understand how assenine the higher ups can be. Before you jump on that, I know its not like the real military but the structure is similar and the lunacy at the top is still there.

If you truely believe society is and/or should be about the individual, then I feel bad for you and think youre better off in California, where that is certainly the case.

And if you think this is the most corrupt government, its because of the ability for the individual to achieve. Futhermore, I dont have a real hard time believing this is the most corrupt government ever, but amoral is another story.

Youre right on the fact that unwilling participants shouldnt be sacrificed to an extent. But that doesnt make the unwilling participant any kind of justified.

TT....just to demonstrate that I actually welcome discussion and debate, If you still want to run an extended log on the products you mentioned...shoot me an email at mpearson at recomp dot com.

Ill drop you a line. None of this is personal, Id say it to anyone, a bum or mother theresa. Well maybe not the mother, shes supposedly a difficult woman. This is a habit I have that bites me in the ass when doing things like picking up women. If I hear they watch Greys Anatomy, its usually followed by a that show sucks and they walk away.

 

[dsade]

Ive worked in politics, I know about politicians and went through military school and understand how assenine the higher ups can be. Before you jump on that, I know its not like the real military but the structure is similar and the lunacy at the top is still there.

If you truely believe society is and/or should be about the individual, then I feel bad for you and think youre better off in California, where that is certainly the case.

And if you think this is the most corrupt government, its because of the ability for the individual to achieve. Futhermore, I dont have a real hard time believing this is the most corrupt government ever, but amoral is another story.

Youre right on the fact that unwilling participants shouldnt be sacrificed to an extent. But that doesnt make the unwilling participant any kind of justified.



Ill drop you a line. None of this is personal, Id say it to anyone, a bum or mother theresa. Well maybe not the mother, shes supposedly a difficult woman. This is a habit I have that bites me in the ass when doing things like picking up women. If I hear they watch Greys Anatomy, its usually followed by a that show sucks and they walk away.

What is the most important unit of humanity then? The society? So Commuinism is the way to go, where the "group" interest can be used to commit holocaust on the indiidul if it can be demonstrated that t least 2 other will be benefitted?

 

[TexasTitan]

What is the most important unit of humanity then? The society? So Commuinism is the way to go, where the "group" interest can be used to commit holocaust on the indiidul if it can be demonstrated that t least 2 other will be benefitted?

Saying society, or the group of people as a whole should be benefited doesnt give way/justification to things like the holocaust and communism. Thats a far reach. I mean, do I think that we shouldnt pay welfare? Yes. Do I think the ghettos should be purged? No.

I think small units like the family are the most important. However, in the right places, that sense of family can extend through a community. I dont think the logic of 2 win because 1 loses can be really applied to the human element. Humans, for better or worse, arents governed by as strict of logic and theres a lot more to it than that.

 

[poison]

I don't see any moral, principle, or constitutional objection to latrine, running (unless of course it would cause permenent injury and there are other cardiovbascular options)...but if he objection to running into nemy fire is based on pacifism, first one should not have volunteered for service....if not, need to know more details.

People don't join the military as pacifists. People refuse to run into enemy fire because they are afraid of dying, which is a distinct possibility. this is why soldiers in EVERY army are requirred to follow orders, even if they don't make sense and/or may result in your death or the death of others: much of what a soldier is asked to do is ****ed up, be it cleaning a latrine, or charging a hill with enemy troops on top. And this is why soldiers AREN'T held responsible for their actions, as long as they adhere to generally accepted rules of war.

Look at the invasion of Kuwait simply put. The iraqi army was acting immorally and the most rudimentary halfwit would hve known, based on the rights of others, that the act was immoral. Following orders in this case does not absolve you of the "murders" you would be committing.

Yes, actually it does. Again, a soldiers job is to follow orders, and as long as those orders aren't 'rape and pillage', you won't be held responsible. A soldiers job is NOT to judge policy, it is to carry out orders, as long as those orders follow the rules of war.

Now...in this situation some kuwaitis were returning defensive fire and you were ordered t storm...now, not only would the initial acts be on your head, but you are also being ordered by immoral superiors to die for this cause.

Or look at it this way: no one is telling you to kill anyone. They're telling you t capture the x. So you and your comrades advance on the x, to capture it. Enemy soldiers start shooting at you, and in order to acheive the objective, and remain alive, you have to defend yourself by neutralizing the threat.

Refuse? As I stated, we are men first...and it is up to each man to decide his life, and take the consequences.

Exactly. So when you swear in to ANY army, that oath includes setting aside your personal beliefs and needs, and following orders. You become property of the gov't.

In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

The Oath of Enlistment

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. That I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

It says NOTHING about interjecting your personal beliefs or policies into things. Consequences of not obeying? Pretty harsh, see desertion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion

 

[dsade]

I am well aware of the oaths, and they are listed in order of supremecy. You swear to protect and defend the constitution first. If the orders of superiors are contrary to the constitution (such as forcefully depriving other of civil liberties) then you must disobey.

 

[poison]

The Constitution applies to US citizens only. What if, in defending the constitution and citizens of the US, you have to deprive the enemy of civil liberties?

 

[dsade]

The Constitution applies to US citizens only. What if, in defending the constitution and citizens of the US, you have to deprive the enemy of civil liberties?

The Constitution and DOI acknowledge rights, and protects inherent rights of people..it does not grant them.

 

[TexasTitan]

I am well aware of the oaths, and they are listed in order of supremecy. You swear to protect and defend the constitution first. If the orders of superiors are contrary to the constitution (such as forcefully depriving other of civil liberties) then you must disobey.

Interpreting the constitution is not a soldier's expertise. If I had a nickel for everytime someone called something unconstitutional...well I could pay off the national debt.

 

[D3vildog]

Interpreting the constitution is not a soldier's expertise. If I had a nickel for everytime someone called something unconstitutional...well I could pay off the national debt.

Interpreting the constitution should be every citizens expertise, is the founding part of this nation and without it, there is no point to argue. To say that just because someone is a soldier they should not question the actions that they feel are unconstitutional is downright idiotic.

"We have a constitution but don't worry WE already checked an made sure this is okay.. no reason for you to look it over"

You can't honestly tell me you don't see something wrong there.

 

[TexasTitan]

Interpreting the constitution should be every citizens expertise, is the founding part of this nation and without it, there is no point to argue. To say that just because someone is a soldier they should not question the actions that they feel are unconstitutional is downright idiotic.

"We have a constitution but don't worry WE already checked an made sure this is okay.. no reason for you to look it over"

You can't honestly tell me you don't see something wrong there.

I see something wrong when people completely untrained in law think they know better than those whove spent their lives in it. Interpreting the constitution will yield different views based on your own. IE The right to bear arms, states rights vs federal, etc etc. To me, its obvious we have an individual right to bear arms and states rights have been trampled to a depressing extent. To others, it can seem totally different.

Its one thing to never question, its another to assume you are the king **** and can read and understand law.

 

[D3vildog]

I see something wrong when people completely untrained in law think they know better than those whove spent their lives in it. Interpreting the constitution will yield different views based on your own. IE The right to bear arms.

Its one thing to never question, its another to assume you are the king **** and can read and understand law.

I dont assume i'm the king of anything...

I'm just saying that it is important for everyone to know the constitution, just because someone has a degree in Law, doesn't make them the king either.

 

[TexasTitan]

I dont assume i'm the king of anything...

I'm just saying that it is important for everyone to know the constitution, just because someone has a degree in Law, doesn't make them the king either.

No it makes them educated and skilled in its practice and understanding. I dont assume that a DMV clerk can do what a marine does based on the fact I think all should be skilled in firearm use.

 

[D3vildog]

No it makes them educated and skilled in its practice and understanding. I dont assume that a DMV clerk can do what a marine does based on the fact I think all should be skilled in firearm use.

Not having a degree does not make you uneducated. Being a former Marine myself i can tell you there are alot of guys i know that i can shoot farther and straighter than me, and only had hunting with their dad as a teacher. And i scored Rifle Expert at 240...

Leaving things up to the big guys and not saying anything when you feel that it is right is a personal choice, same as saying something when you feel it is wrong. Don't go in blind do research for sure and know when to say your wrong, but it is their choice and it was their personal decision, If anything you should respect that fact that he has the right to make that choice, even if you disagree with it.

 

[poison]

Not having a degree does not make you uneducated. Being a former Marine myself i can tell you there are alot of guys i know that i can shoot farther and straighter than me, and only had hunting with their dad as a teacher. And i scored Rifle Expert at 240...

Leaving things up to the big guys and not saying anything when you feel that it is right is a personal choice, same as saying something when you feel it is wrong. Don't go in blind do research for sure and know when to say your wrong, but it is their choice and it was their personal decision, If anything you should respect that fact that he has the right to make that choice, even if you disagree with it.

And your commander has the right to put a bullet in your head, in some circumstances, if you refuse an order.

I can't believe some of your opinions here on following orders, given that you WERE soldiers. YOu know exactly what happens if you don't follow orders, and when you CAN break an order. Not doing a patrol you were ordered to do, or going AWOL to avoid Iraq, is not one of those times you can burn order.

 

[D3vildog]

And your commander has the right to put a bullet in your head, in some circumstances, if you refuse an order.

I can't believe some of your opinions here on following orders, given that you WERE soldiers. YOu know exactly what happens if you don't follow orders, and when you CAN break an order. Not doing a patrol you were ordered to do, or going AWOL to avoid Iraq, is not one of those times you can burn order.

No body has the right to take a life, no one. He may have the authority, but not the right too.

Any man has the ability to make their own choices, regardless.

The only orders i can understand refusing is to deploy if they honestly don't believe in the war. However skipping patrols and going AWOL can affect others, especially when it comes to IEDs. You get someone else killed cause of that and it will eat you alive. Its not that i Back them up so much as i respect that they have the choice, and they are making it. It is not an act of treason, but they will be court marshaled. Therefore they are getting the consequences of their actions and it is not resulting the death of anyone.

 

[poison]

No body has the right to take a life, no one. He may have the authority, but not the right too.

Wrong. There is a time for everything under the sun, even killing.

Any man has the ability to make their own choices, regardless.

Sure, you can kill the guy who cuts you off, your choice. Consequences are a bitch. In the case of a soldier in a volunteer army who swore to obey his commanders, your opportunities to 'choose' are very limited. You agree to that going in.

The only orders i can understand refusing is to deploy if they honestly don't believe in the war.

Believe in the war? A soldiers beliefs aren't at play, here. Same as if you work at Blockbuster and believe Twighlight is a travesty of a movie and should be tossed in the trash. It certainly is a travesty, but no one asked you. Put it on the shelf, of face the consequences.

However skipping patrols and going AWOL can affect others, especially when it comes to IEDs. You get someone else killed cause of that and it will eat you alive. Its not that i Back them up so much as i respect that they have the choice, and they are making it. It is not an act of treason, but they will be court marshaled. Therefore they are getting the consequences of their actions and it is not resulting the death of anyone.

Hey, if someone disagreed with Iraq, and wasn't going AWOL because he's a *****, then wouldn't you do it in a more upright, meaningful manner?

Medal Of Honor Winner Desmond Doss Dies
Chattanoogan.com ^ | 3/23/06

Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 16:02:27 by Borges

Desmond T. Doss, Sr., the only conscientious objector to win the Congressional Medal of Honor during World War II, has died. He was 87 years old.

Mr. Doss never liked being called a conscientious objector. He preferred the term conscientious cooperator. Raised a Seventh-day Adventist, Mr. Doss did not believe in using a gun or killing because of the sixth commandment which states, “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13). Doss was a patriot however, and believed in serving his country.

During World War II, instead of accepting a deferment, Mr. Doss voluntarily joined the Army as a conscientious objector. Assigned to the 307th Infantry Division as a company medic he was harassed and ridiculed for his beliefs, yet he served with distinction and ultimately received the Congressional Medal of Honor on Oct. 12, 1945 for his fearless acts of bravery.

According to his Medal of Honor citation, time after time, Mr. Doss’ fellow soldiers witnessed how unafraid he was for his own safety. He was always willing to go after a wounded fellow, no matter how great the danger. On one occasion in Okinawa, he refused to take cover from enemy fire as he rescued approximately 75 wounded soldiers, carrying them one-by-one and lowering them over the edge of the 400-foot Maeda Escarpment. He did not stop until he had brought everyone to safety nearly 12 hours later.

When Mr. Doss received the Medal of Honor from President Truman, the President told him, “I’m proud of you, you really deserve this. I consider this a greater honor than being President.”

Mr. Doss’ exemplary devotion to God and his country has received nationwide attention. On July 4, 2004, a statue of Mr. Doss was placed in the National Museum of Patriotism in Atlanta, Ga., along with statues of Dr. Martin Luther King, President Jimmy Carter, and retired Marine Corps General Gray Davis, also a Medal of Honor recipient. Also in 2004, a feature-length documentary called “The Conscientious Objector,” telling Doss’ story of faith, heroism, and bravery was released. A feature movie describing Doss’ story is also being planned.

Mr. Doss died Thursday morning in Piedmont, Ala. He is survived by his wife, Frances; his son, Desmond T. Doss, Jr., and his brother, Harold Doss.

True conscientious objectors also deal with the issues before they ever make the commitment to join the military.




"oh, ****, you mean I can't just keep studying and playing with guns? I actually have to do something to earn my degree?'

 

[dsade]

tell you what....with the anti-constitutional PAtriot act still in place and a very brutish ugly country ahead of us, when you are reclassified as an enemy combatant for whatever stupid reason they feel like, you had better hope and pray for soldiers with a set of balls and a brain willing to stand up to the orders of a corrupt or incompetent command.

 

[D3vildog]

I do have a Degree and i earned it on my own. With no money from the military.

In your eyes there is a time for killing, in mine there is not. Ever. An opinion i will not argue on the internet.

Choice is a choice, and a man or woman always has a choice. Not every man is the same and won't uphold to your morals, or mine. I have already stated i don't agree with disobeying orders and if you didn't want to go, don't join. But i would rather have these men who are going to make the choice to not go, make it here and not in the sandbox. and face the penalties here, rather than get someone killed for shirking orders.

"Sure, you can kill the guy who cuts you off, your choice. Consequences are a bitch. In the case of a soldier in a volunteer army who swore to obey his commanders, your opportunities to 'choose' are very limited. You agree to that going in."

Wrong, you chose to be in the Military, and said you would obey. You still have the choice to think for yourself, and make your own decisions. is your name scum yes, but that is their choice to make.

You can choose to think that our soldiers aren't free thinking individuals but i do not. These are not robots they are men, men with a free mind who can say what they want when they want and do as they please. Consequences will ensue. I know that, you know that. If you treat them as robots long enough, and underestimate the power of a free thinking man, whether he dons a uniform or not, you will be surprised at the outcome eventually, cause it will come.

The basics of this argument is you seem to think that just because they wear a uniform they do not have a choice. You fail to see they are men, and they are. Just because it is written in paper does not bind them magically into high standards and morals they should have on their own. Simple fact is that some men are cowards, some are not. Some choose that what they believe in is more important than obeying an order and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions.

What you should know is that I WANTED to go, but they wouldn't take me, my friends are on their 2nd tour and i'm here. I was booted for being bi-polar type 2, and having severe allergies to Pain Meds both of which i found out the hard way. I was deemed only good to sit at a desk and do paperwork whilst my friends risked their lives, most wishing they could be me. I signed up to go, i was committed to go. I got one year and a boot out the door with no G.I Bill that i put money into.

 

[poison]

I do have a Degree and i earned it on my own. With no money from the military.

In your eyes there is a time for killing, in mine there is not. Ever. An opinion i will not argue on the internet.

Choice is a choice, and a man or woman always has a choice. Not every man is the same and won't uphold to your morals, or mine. I have already stated i don't agree with disobeying orders and if you didn't want to go, don't join. But i would rather have these men who are going to make the choice to not go, make it here and not in the sandbox. and face the penalties here, rather than get someone killed for shirking orders.

"Sure, you can kill the guy who cuts you off, your choice. Consequences are a bitch. In the case of a soldier in a volunteer army who swore to obey his commanders, your opportunities to 'choose' are very limited. You agree to that going in."

Wrong, you chose to be in the Military, and said you would obey. You still have the choice to think for yourself, and make your own decisions. is your name scum yes, but that is their choice to make.

You can choose to think that our soldiers aren't free thinking individuals but i do not. These are not robots they are men, men with a free mind who can say what they want when they want and do as they please. Consequences will ensue. I know that, you know that. If you treat them as robots long enough, and underestimate the power of a free thinking man, whether he dons a uniform or not, you will be surprised at the outcome eventually, cause it will come.

The basics of this argument is you seem to think that just because they wear a uniform they do not have a choice. You fail to see they are men, and they are. Just because it is written in paper does not bind them magically into high standards and morals they should have on their own. Simple fact is that some men are cowards, some are not. Some choose that what they believe in is more important than obeying an order and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions.

What you should know is that I WANTED to go, but they wouldn't take me, my friends are on their 2nd tour and i'm here. I was booted for being bi-polar type 2, and having severe allergies to Pain Meds both of which i found out the hard way. I was deemed only good to sit at a desk and do paperwork whilst my friends risked their lives, most wishing they could be me. I signed up to go, i was committed to go. I got one year and a boot out the door with no G.I Bill that i put money into.

I believe there is a time to disobey an order; those times are very rare, and spelled out in most militaries in their uniform code of justice, etc.

I'm not sure how you can believe there's is never a time for killing, and I'm also not sure how that meshes with your desire to join the military. Why join, even as a chef, if you believe there is no reason to kill, ever. The military is one big killing machine.

 

[D3vildog]

I believe there is a time to disobey an order; those times are very rare, and spelled out in most militaries in their uniform code of justice, etc.

I'm not sure how you can believe there's is never a time for killing, and I'm also not sure how that meshes with your desire to join the military. Why join, even as a chef, if you believe there is no reason to kill, ever. The military is one big killing machine.

I have already joined, and got booted. I have changed alot since my time in. Back then i was okay with killing in self defense. However i am not anymore, it came with a lifestyle change of trying to live better and more relaxed because of being bi-polar 2 which i was diagnosed with in the Marines. Its pretty obvious when a doc knows the symptoms and you try to take ur own life from a low.

I simply respect their ability to choose for themselves as men. Because that is what they are. Should the full wrath of the UCMJ be brought down upon them?

...Bring the rain.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Didn't read page 2-3 yet but the universal stop loss of 2032 was to just cover everyone under all pay and extension situations. It wasn't meant as an autoreenlist for 29 years. It was more of an administration thing.

 

[Jayhawkk]

I think it takes a huge ego to be so arrogant to think you personally know better than the elected leaders and countless people who run this country.

I think you need a bit of common sense and intelligence to understand how to separate what they do and what they know.

That you think your life and service, or lack thereof, is more important than being there to support your brothers. For that reason alone, I can say I wouldnt refuse. For me, it wouldnt be about what Im fighting for, Id be sent where I was told and perform the duties like a solider but would be there to protect the man next to me, not my own ass.

Once you're there things are going to change. Especially when you and your brothers are dying off left and right because of decisions that are made that make no sense and apparently are made by those who never step foot on the battlefield. You should follow orders but you should also be spart enough to know when an order should not be followed.

I see a lot of arguing by those using their ideals that don't seem to be tainted by the reality of war and the military.

 

[TexasTitan]

I think you need a bit of common sense and intelligence to understand how to separate what they do and what they know.

Once you're there things are going to change. Especially when you and your brothers are dying off left and right because of decisions that are made that make no sense and apparently are made by those who never step foot on the battlefield. You should follow orders but you should also be spart enough to know when an order should not be followed.

I see a lot of arguing by those using their ideals that don't seem to be tainted by the reality of war and the military.

So you standby the fact that you get to selectively follow orders? I dont really care if you get on the high and mighty horse of "I served, I know everything" but that doesnt put everyone else in the dark. In fact, if you want to see it from a logic standpoint, it means we have no emotions clouding our judgement. I have plenty of legless and armless buddies who would give anything to go back and fight with their friends. You dont join the military to enforce your beliefs. You do it by voting and protesting.

 

[D3vildog]

So you standby the fact that you get to selectively follow orders? I dont really care if you get on the high and mighty horse of "I served, I know everything" but that doesnt put everyone else in the dark. In fact, if you want to see it from a logic standpoint, it means we have no emotions clouding our judgement. I have plenty of legless and armless buddies who would give anything to go back and fight with their friends. You dont join the military to enforce your beliefs. You do it by voting and protesting.

And if the system was perfect, and every man stood up to those morals and beliefs. Then Your right, this is reality however. You should know by now that not everyone plays by the rules.

And they are protesting, by refusing to deploy before actually deploying. Nobody is getting hurt, and they are accepting their Court Marshals. Had they been AWOL it would be different.

 

[Wetdawg]

In times of War, you can refuse orders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Slovik

 

[poison]

Um, sure.

 

[poacher]

tell you what....with the anti-constitutional PAtriot act still in place; and a very brutish ugly country ahead of us, when you are reclassified as an enemy combatant for whatever stupid reason thy feeol like, you had better hope and pray for soldiers with a set of balls with a brain willing to stand up to the orders of a corrupt or incompetent command.

Amen to that