jim2509
Well-known member
I have a couple of the OL UK products including Lgd Legend....aint touching them with a barge pole. Clearly something going on.
Unanswered Question about my ALT/AST levels - LGD cycle. Including full blood work.
- Thread starter timberx
- Start date
Smont
Legend
Don't worry, if there the new ol UK stuff there not spiked. There just sugar pills.
jim2509
Well-known member
So it appears. Well PN can gtf am not parting with my hard earned money to them ever again.
timberx
Member
Just some update, I did another blood test to see if things are getting better and have another blood test if they dont so I have multiple results available to show doctors on Monday..... unfortunately these readings are getting worse for me, so I am definitely going to see a doctor on Monday. Dont care what they put on my record. At this point low test is the least of my worries, so I dont think I will take any PCT until I get my ALT to atleast 300s - no meds/supps at all other than liver supps. My diet for now will be mashed potatoes, boiled chicken and salads. I also tested negative for all types of hepatitis, but it could be some other infection from contaminated LGD? I am so pissed at this happening to me right now, especially since I took on-cycle support and everything I could to be safe on this so called "sarm" cycle.......... I will keep taking these liver supps for now:
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I googled high ALT/AST levels and found a link to this forum(SST):
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Sounds like I took something like this guy instead of a sarm (his ALT levels spiked to 1155(!)) .... I dont know if I am allowed to post links to other forums. Seems like he is ok now, he didnt update his topic with his final results, but is posting on there regularly. In fact I will contact him and ask if he recovered.
Other than that I feel ok, urine is a bit darker in mornings, but I drink a lot of water during the day and its in a "ok" color during the day.
I will keep you all updated.
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I googled high ALT/AST levels and found a link to this forum(SST):
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Sounds like I took something like this guy instead of a sarm (his ALT levels spiked to 1155(!)) .... I dont know if I am allowed to post links to other forums. Seems like he is ok now, he didnt update his topic with his final results, but is posting on there regularly. In fact I will contact him and ask if he recovered.
Other than that I feel ok, urine is a bit darker in mornings, but I drink a lot of water during the day and its in a "ok" color during the day.
I will keep you all updated.
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jim2509
Well-known member
Sorry to hear is hasnt improved (yet).
Unfortunately without product testing of thre OL UK Legend product we'll not know what the hell is in it. Keep us posted and am sure itll sort itself out in the end.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Still, don't stress to much about it. All other values are normal which indicates no damage has been done.
I am however surprised that alt hasn't dropped. It might be due to LGD's half life. What I want to say is that maybe LGD hasn't completely cleared out of your system by the time of your second test. Liver values should start dropping after the stressor is removed...
How long after you stopped taking LGD was the second test done? And sorry but what was your dose again?
I am however surprised that alt hasn't dropped. It might be due to LGD's half life. What I want to say is that maybe LGD hasn't completely cleared out of your system by the time of your second test. Liver values should start dropping after the stressor is removed...
How long after you stopped taking LGD was the second test done? And sorry but what was your dose again?
timberx
Member
12mg/day, last dosage was on Wednesday 8mg, thats before I got my first test results. So 3 full days today.
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Found this information online, I will also ask my doc on Monday to test for all viral infections(or other infections) - since I have no idea what infections(other than hepatitis) usually can impact the liver, otherwise I would have tested them already myself.
danielvp
Member
Good call on the viral panel. Epstein-Barr Virus can do a number on your liver.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Only 3 days... yeah, that is not enough time. You still had some LGD flowing in you by the time of the second test. Soooo don't stress it mate! : D
Old Witch
Well-known member
If your bilirubin, ggt, or albumins were high, you’d be in trouble.
This is a perfect example of “liver toxicity is overrated” the enzymes are up, but the actual damaging or damage indicating factors are normal.
That being said, you can’t just have elevated enzymes this high forever without the rest finally going up, either. And usually them being that high would mean any day could be the turning point from fine to bad.
This is a perfect example of “liver toxicity is overrated” the enzymes are up, but the actual damaging or damage indicating factors are normal.
That being said, you can’t just have elevated enzymes this high forever without the rest finally going up, either. And usually them being that high would mean any day could be the turning point from fine to bad.
hairygrandpa
Legend
I took the same product as banana-guy (from same Company, same batch) and had no negative sides. Apparently, the hepatotoxic effect is individual -or, banana-guy took something else aggravating it that I'm not aware of. I remember accusing him to be an alcoholic -or having a underlying liver disease, he denied it.
Smont
Legend
That's strange
Matthersby
Well-known member
This is key to understand. Those elevated values are high but indicate only strain, not actual damage. Just keep on the track you’re on. You could take nothing for repair and your liver would get to 100% anyhow.
timberx
Member
So a small update, went to a doctor today(hepatologist) - had to do another blood work, she gave me some additional tests for viral infections to test, those will be ready tomorrow. Good news for me is that, AST/ALT are going down finally! AST from 748 to 660 and AST from 213 to 149, thats a nice decrease in just 2 days since my last blood test. Also what is interesting my test is recovering nicely without any supps, up nearly 45% since my first blood test(5 days ago), that is WHITHOUT ANY supps or serms. I spoke to this doc about using Tamoxifen, she was not sure if it is a good idea at this point and from my reading it can be a bit liver toxic also, I dont have Clomid available in my country. The doc that I was going to see after my cycle for PCT supps(SERMS, etc.) can not see me until 7th May, he is in another country. So I picked up some OTC supps for test: BLR Rebirth(*Natural serm*) and MAN Nolvadren XT *PCT* test booster. I will post my blood work results on infections that could affect my liver once I get them.
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danielvp
Member
Glad to hear your liver enzymes are going down! I wouldn't worry about not using a serm, you will recover fine.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Yep, told you : ) All the fussing and doctors doing tests is totally over the edge. But all the blood work will be nice as a reference to others doing research online so keep it coming! Also, at least you'll know you are infection free hehe
timberx
Member
Yeh, my next blood work will be on Friday or next Monday, this will turn into a case study heh.
hairygrandpa
Legend
Here another one, running apparently into liver trouble with LGD:
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John Smeton
Legend
A ggt test is good.
Training intense causes alt and ast liver values to raise some. As does sprinting intensely as hard as one can.
My liver enzymes have been a little bit higher, maybe 20-30 points at most, and Tudca according to my bloodwork has brought them back into range.
Training intense causes alt and ast liver values to raise some. As does sprinting intensely as hard as one can.
My liver enzymes have been a little bit higher, maybe 20-30 points at most, and Tudca according to my bloodwork has brought them back into range.
Old Witch
Well-known member
As they said above, AST and ALT are the enzymes. They indicate how much work the liver is doing. They don’t indicate damage. What indicates damage are bilirubin, GGT, and albumins.
timberx
Member
Yeah, he definitely needs to do a blood work to see if anything is wrong.
JoePaul39
Well-known member
If bilirubin is ever out of range does this mean irreversible damage has occurred?
Old Witch
Well-known member
No it usually would mean you’re heading for cholestatic hepatitis.
Matthersby
Well-known member
Not necessarily at all. But it’s much more critical than some elevated enzymes and is the first stage of liver damage, when jaundice usually occurs. Doesn’t mean it’s irreversible at that point always, you’re just headed that direction. That’s why discontinuing is so important AS SOON as you start noticing yellowing of the skin and eyes, or urine(and I don’t mean dehydration)
timberx
Member
Hey guys! Another update, things are looking much better!
This is from another lab, was closer to me today, so it is a bit different layout:
Results 1 week ago:
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Results today:
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My AST(ASAT) is almost within the normal range, my ALT(ALAT) has gone down by more than 500 in 1 week, I think next week both of them will be within normal range. GGT(Gamma-glutamiltransferāze) is 18 and Bilirubin is 13.8.
On next Wednesday I will do another test, in English from my original lab, so I have the same layout, ranges, etc. as my original post. I think on Wednesday my liver will have normal values and I will start going to my gym again.
What I find interesting is how quickly my testosterone recovered without any pharma pct, only thing I took was BLR Rebirth and ZMA. Testosterone (3.71 / range: 1.65-7.53 ng/mL - it was 1.41 in my first post ) and Free testosterone (12.7 / range 3.0-21.0), both within normal range already.
Anyways I have Clomid now in case I need it now for my next cycle. I dont think it makes any sense to use it at this point.
Thanks a lot guys for your support when I was freaking out lol.
This is from another lab, was closer to me today, so it is a bit different layout:
Results 1 week ago:
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Results today:
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My AST(ASAT) is almost within the normal range, my ALT(ALAT) has gone down by more than 500 in 1 week, I think next week both of them will be within normal range. GGT(Gamma-glutamiltransferāze) is 18 and Bilirubin is 13.8.
On next Wednesday I will do another test, in English from my original lab, so I have the same layout, ranges, etc. as my original post. I think on Wednesday my liver will have normal values and I will start going to my gym again.
What I find interesting is how quickly my testosterone recovered without any pharma pct, only thing I took was BLR Rebirth and ZMA. Testosterone (3.71 / range: 1.65-7.53 ng/mL - it was 1.41 in my first post ) and Free testosterone (12.7 / range 3.0-21.0), both within normal range already.
Anyways I have Clomid now in case I need it now for my next cycle. I dont think it makes any sense to use it at this point.
Thanks a lot guys for your support when I was freaking out lol.
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danielvp
Member
Glad everything is on the up and up!
Old Witch
Well-known member
I used to have the same rapid recovery back in the day. Most of the time I’d do my blood work after coming off for three or even four weeks (injectable clearance time) before starting pct and I’d be already way back up at high normal. LH high too. I’ve always had low FSH. Took me a year and a half to get my wife pregnant.
timberx
Member
I was thinking about my next cycle, should I give LGD another shot from another company to see if this liver problem that I had was due to Legend? Whatever was in this Legend was working really good for me in terms of strength(especially my bench press exploded +15kg in 1month), but yeah.... Or just drop Sarms altogether and get some Prohormones? If I go PH route, any advice on what I should try that is not too hard on liver(feeling a bit paranoid now heh) for a first time PH user? I was browsing Pred. and noticed they got some topical PHs also, such as Liquitren(topical Tren), Liquidien(topical Dienolone) which I could stack with something that is not so hard on liver. I have many bottles of Tudca, NAC, etc. now, which I will use on-cycle.
Matthersby
Well-known member
I’d go non methylated for next 3-6 months.
M-Lmg would be a great choice, highly similar to lgd but better and no liver issues.
I’m going to say this again, sarms are trash. If they could somehow avoid suppression and, lipid reversal and liver toxicity, they would be an amazing alternative, but it doesn’t appear that any of them do. The only ones that steroids don’t trump in every way would be the ones that aren’t even sarms: mk677.
Good luck
timberx
Member
Thanks a lot for your advice, I was looking at it, seems like German Pharma sells it under the name M-Drol(great reviews so far), but this article on pro-hormones.uk says that Max-LMG can cause gyno also, have you tried it? If yes any problems there, any supps/meds you take to prevent gyno?
Invalid Link Removed - not sure if I can post links, please dont lock this thread or ban me, ill remove link if not allowed. It also says: "Users could stack this compound with testosterone or one of its non-aromatizing metabolites to preserve DHT levels and possibly prevent these side-effects. " - if I dont have pure testosterone available, should I stack it with something?
Any idea if Hexadrone & stanodrol are good? They are also easy on liver - my goal is to build muscle, not worried about cutting currently. One more question: I am taking also finasteride, since some of them work with DHT, any problems there?
Thanks!
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jim2509
Well-known member
Glad its all worked out for you. Good luck planning your next cycle. Not sure of non methylated bulkers....something id be interested in. Am on a recomp now with Ostarine/Mk677....day 3 and i actually feel mega. Will be doing bloods mid cycle...i hope i dont have your experience but am not using OL UK...lol!
timberx
Member
Yeah same here, would be my first run, I am debating if I should just do Max LMG(German pharma M-drol) or add Hexadrone(German Pharhma Epistan):
Looks like a good stack, from what I have seen, they both are easy on liver also. Just not sure about the gyno thing, if anyone got any insight on that, if it is a big problem with Max LMG? I cant seem to find any info if taking Finasteride with these PHs can cause any problem or make Finasteride less effective?
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danielvp
Member
I haven't taken LMG, but if I were you I would run inhibit-P by SNS the whole cycle, and have prami or caber on hand, all for gyno prevention. I would also run androhard for a test base, but as it converts to dht, it would probably make your finasteride useless.
timberx
Member
Yeah I would like to keep my hair also, not just muscle!
Dermacrine for a test base is probably too weak?danielvp
Member
Dermacrine wasn't strong enough for me, it prevented depression but did nothing for energy or libido. A lot of people swear by it though so its at least worth a try.Yeah I would like to keep my hair also, not just muscle!
timberx
Member
I was using it for a month on this cycle, did not see any effect on my hair from it, so that was good - it was my first "test base", so I have nothing to compare it with. Any idea if finasteride can make these PHs less effective?
danielvp
Member
Finasteride inhibits the 5 alpha reductase enzyme, which converts testosterone into dht. The 5a reductase enzyme is not involved in converting any prohormones into their active hormones, as far as I know. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.
timberx
Member
Thanks bro, I think I will go with Hexadrone as my next cycle, been reading about it all evening. Seems like it is one of the safest prohormones around, easy on liver and low chance of any gyno, while still giving decent gains. Gotta decide if I keep Dermacrine as my test base or look for another 1-andro product. Anyways, gotta get my liver results first on Thursday, if all good, I will start another log and do blood works as usual!
Rad83
Well-known member
Thanks bro, I think I will go with Hexadrone as my next cycle, been reading about it all evening. Seems like it is one of the safest prohormones around, easy on liver and low chance of any gyno, while still giving decent gains. Gotta decide if I keep Dermacrine as my test base or look for another 1-andro product. Anyways, gotta get my liver results first on Thursday, if all good, I will start another log and do blood works as usual!
Sounds good dude! ...Props for still wanting to run something after a health scare! ...But yeah I’m considering the cycle I mentioned too,...have all but the hex. (Im wanting to start in June so I have most of the summer)
timberx
Member
Hey guys, if anyone is following my story, then I got my latest results, I have pretty much recovered now. AST is in the normal range, ALT is going down also very fast(was 748 just 2 weeks ago). Anyways look at my testosterone now at 6.09(was 1.41 after I stopped cycle ~3 weeks ago) and free test now is at 0.178 (was 0.047) and SHBG at 11(was 3). Testosterone and Free Testosterone is now higher than results that I had pre-cycle. Pretty good recovery without any pharma SERM, just OTC supps ZMA, Rebirth(BLR) and Nolvadren XT. I got lucky I guess, got Clomid for my next cycle also now.
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jim2509
Well-known member
Thats great news mate glad its all in order again. Am currently running Ostarine/MK677 and loving it at the moment. I'll do Mid cycle bloods in a few weeks hopefully all good. Have a decent time out to reset and am sure you'll be gtg next time
timberx
Member
Thats great news mate glad its all in order again. Am currently running Ostarine/MK677 and loving it at the moment. I'll do Mid cycle bloods in a few weeks hopefully all good. Have a decent time out to reset and am sure you'll be gtg next time
Nice, keep us updated, you should do a log also. I am not sure how long I should take a break, I wanna try Hexadrone. Probably 1-2 more weeks off.
jim2509
Well-known member
Rubbish product perhaps...(OL UK Lgd Legend)??
jim2509
Well-known member
Id be interested to see how you get on with Hexadrone as it seems to be gaining popularity. Is it Halodrol like with less sides??
timberx
Member
What do you mean? My test levels tanked pretty bad by taking LGD(or whatever was in Legend), ~4 weeks into cycle they tanked to 1.41(pre cycle 6.04 ) & 0.047 (pre cycle 0.134). But I guess I was not suppressed long enough and those 3 OTC supps were enough for me to fully recover and have even higher test levels than what I had pre-cycle.
Yeah, from what I read it is one of the safest prohormones around, no liver toxicity and gyno should not be a problem either. Gonna order from UK, this time I will try German Pharma brand Epistan, my fingers are itching to try Hexadrone with LGD or RAD140 from GP also, but that probably is a bad idea and I will run Hexadrone solo first time.
timberx
Member
Trust me, I was happily surprised also when I saw my testosterone results, I was already within normal range last week, so these results dont lie. I think I was not suppressed for long enough time(~4 weeks I took Legend), which made it probably much easier to bounce back with just OTC supps.