Unanswered Question about my ALT/AST levels - LGD cycle. Including full blood work.

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timberx

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Hi!

I am running a cycle log on here, but I decided to ask this question on here also as this part of the forum gets more traffic afaik:

https://anabolicminds.com/community/threads/lgd-dermacrine-cycle-8-10-weeks-including-blood-work-every-2-3weeks.310055/

However today I was shocked when I got my blood results back, in 20 days since my last blood work my ALT levels have gone up 10x! I will do another test tomorrow, anyone else have had this happen in such short period of time? Should I test for GGT also tomorrow?

Here are my test results so far, 34 days into cycle (12mg/day - Olympus Labs Legend):



Thanks.
 

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Matthersby

Matthersby

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Ya the liver can take a beating and I rarely even run cycle support for the liver since it was BUILT to bounce back from this kinda stuff.
But seriously.... On 30mg SD after 3-4 weeks my ALT was like 67, and I felt like literal warmed up ****. I’m sure you’ll be fine, but STOP taking that putrid **** sarm and get some Source Naturals Liver care and some Now NAC/Milk Thistle, even some Tudca/Udca and don’t even have a beer for 30 days.

10,20,30 outta range, fine.
360 outta range, g’head and call it a day with that cycle there, K?

New acronym for LGD= Liver’s Generally Destroyed.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

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Liver enzymes 3 times the limit... ehh, not great, but not actually immediately dangerous.

Liver enzymes 4 times the limit, time to quit.

Liver enzymes 10 times the limit (as seen here) quit. Quit now. Get tudca, get NAC, a bunch of bottles, take a shitload of it every few hours, get drinking the water...
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

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And get some methyl B12 while you’re at it, get the homocysteine out of there.
 
Old Witch

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Any chance this isn’t a sarm or is op just unlucky
I suppose there’s that chance. This looks like a superdrol cycle. Except where’s the beef? Know what I mean?

A real steroid/ph this toxic would produce hella results. Unless it was Cheque...

I think OP is extremely unfortunate.
 
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timberx

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Are you taking any on cycle support?
Yes OL Ar1macare Pro.

Ya the liver can take a beating and I rarely even run cycle support for the liver since it was BUILT to bounce back from this kinda stuff.
But seriously.... On 30mg SD after 3-4 weeks my ALT was like 67, and I felt like literal warmed up ****. I’m sure you’ll be fine, but STOP taking that putrid **** sarm and get some Source Naturals Liver care and some Now NAC/Milk Thistle, even some Tudca/Udca and don’t even have a beer for 30 days.

10,20,30 outta range, fine.
360 outta range, g’head and call it a day with that cycle there, K?

New acronym for LGD= Liver’s Generally Destroyed.
Liver enzymes 3 times the limit... ehh, not great, but not actually immediately dangerous.

Liver enzymes 4 times the limit, time to quit.

Liver enzymes 10 times the limit (as seen here) quit. Quit now. Get tudca, get NAC, a bunch of bottles, take a shitload of it every few hours, get drinking the water...
Any chance this isn’t a sarm or is op just unlucky
I suppose there’s that chance. This looks like a superdrol cycle. Except where’s the beef? Know what I mean?

A real steroid/ph this toxic would produce hella results. Unless it was Cheque...

I think OP is extremely unfortunate.
I will do another blood work today from another lab just for ALT/AST, just to confirm the results (bilirubin is fine for example and so are kidney results). I am shocked myself, never ever have I had such high levels and I test my liver regularly. The gains are there, in 32 days I have gained 5kg(11lbs) in weight and increased my bench by 15kg (33lbs) for example - while I can not tell if 5kg of what I gained in my weight is all muscle or not, my strength has gone up noticeably. I wondered the same thing if I am really taking a legit LGD. I mean I am eating a lot of protein (both food and protein shakes), workout out 6 days a week, so it could affect my liver also, but not to this level. I ordered more liver support supps (including TUDCA and NAC) yesterday.
 
Matthersby

Matthersby

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Kidneys will always be fine as they have nothing to do with toxicity. What puts mild “strain” on kidneys is both our high protein diets (and the increased rate at which we break down muscle tissue)and the fact that humans tend to drink the same amount of water every day, but on cycle you pull several pounds of water into the muscle: mild dehydration.
But the kidneys are built for a lifetime of this and they will take it.
Liver toxicity is different. You put excessive strain on the liver, it Almost Always, just as soon as you remove the toxin, will both regenerate and heal 100%. Not 99.9%, 100%.
That is, if you remove the toxin BEFORE scarring happens. That’s not reversible.
Sarm and Steroid users very very very rarely ever get to this point. BUT, did you get labs before the cycle? Is there something in your lifestyle that is causing this and the LGD just was the icing on the cake? All good to know.

When I take an oral steroid, and get labs, I get my results and look at two things first: AST/ALT.
Then move on to cardiovascular health stuff.
Bilirubin and kidney function, while factors don’t really indicate what I’m looking for as liver strain.
I’ve ran 3 dozen orals and haven’t had labs anywhere close to that.
And I drank 5 beers every day on Superdrol cycle in 2006. So while you’ll probably be fine, your liver is seriously getting it’s ass kicked, probably a really good time to run some damage control. I would NOT be comfortable with those numbers and my only goal would be repair right now.
 
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3clipseGT

3clipseGT

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This is shocking to say the least. Following along and like others said definitely dial up that TUDCA, NAC etc.
 
Old Witch

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Kidneys look fine. Filtration is good and creatinine is within range. Nothing to note there IMO.

It’s the liver that’s totally out of control.
 
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JoePaul39

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This is not a typical reaction to LGD. My guess either you and LGD just aren’t “meant to be” and you had an response most users wouldn’t experience on LGD or perhaps your liver values were screwed up before the cycle and it is not the LGD. Did you have precycle bloodwork?

I just ran and posted my liver bloods off a 8 week cycle of LGD 20 mg, S23 30 mg (liver toxic), 1 andro 345 mg (not best on liver), 175 mg trt cruise dose, Rad 140 30 mg, and the last 6 weeks DMZ 40 mg added in (liver toxic). With all these compounds my liver values were still better than yours.
 
hairygrandpa

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I saw once a guy getting yellow like a banana on 18mg/d LGD, 2 weeks into the cycle. Not unheard of and I always warned people about it.
 
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timberx

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Thank you all really much for your replies. Yes I did do the blood work before my cycle and roughly 2 weeks into cycle.

Here are my pre-cycle/2weeks into cycle results - had to translate(from my langauge) values by hand as I did not originally plan on running a log, from now on I will ask my labs to give me results in English.

Normally my ALT/AST levels are in low/mid 20s. I was coming off a Accutane(60mg) course as I started this cycle and I still had my AST/ALT levels pretty much within the normal range at 39(in fact it was never above 40 on Accutane and I did blood work every month for 5 months). Two weeks into cycle my ALT was 45 and AST 42, now 4 1/2 weeks into my cycle my AST is at 133 and ALT 407. So pretty much in 2 1/2 weeks my ALT went up ~9x and AST tripled. Only thing changed was that I increased my LGD from 8mg a day to 12mg a day and I ordered a second bottle that I use when I am not at home(in car, work, etc.). Also I dont drink alcohol at all.
 

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JoePaul39

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Just curious, did you have any signs that indicated liver problems on cycle like dark urine?
 
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timberx

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Just curious, did you have any signs that indicated liver problems on cycle like dark urine?
Nope, no signs, I feel perfectly fine. No yellowing anywhere, no dark urine. If it wasnt for this blood test I would not even know. I only chose LGD this time because I did not want to stress my liver(its supposed to be "easy" on liver) as I just finished Accutane course(even if my liver results were totally withing normal range at that time)..... I would have done Halo otherwise.
 
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jrock645

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I have a bottle of LGD that got sent to me as a mis-pick for something else i ordered. Going in the trash after this.
 
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timberx

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Also if anyone is wondering about my experience/background. I am 30 years old, 190cm/110kg - 6'3/~240lbs - so I dont think 12mg of LGD solo would count as a large dosage for me. I have been lifting for nearly 15 years on and off, never had a reaction like this before.
 
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jim2509

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This is concerning. So are we saying Lgd 'could' absolutely trash the liver?? Loads of us have used the old school prohormones before that have had nowhere near these levels of toxicity. Could it be the Lgd....isnt Lgd at all???
 
3clipseGT

3clipseGT

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This is concerning. So are we saying Lgd 'could' absolutely trash the liver?? Loads of us have used the old school prohormones before that have had nowhere near these levels of toxicity. Could it be the Lgd....isnt Lgd at all???
I think thats what we dont know for sure. Many have used LGD before and even harsher compounds without this type of toxicity.
 
Old Witch

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I’m thinking it was legit LGD. And yes it is well known that sarms can possibly trash your liver in a month like steroids can.
 
Matthersby

Matthersby

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This is concerning. So are we saying Lgd 'could' absolutely trash the liver?? Loads of us have used the old school prohormones before that have had nowhere near these levels of toxicity. Could it be the Lgd....isnt Lgd at all???
That’s the problem. I don’t even think RC’s and UGL’s are faking Sarms, I think the raws are inconsistent or something. Labs are all over the place with these things. More often than not, massive suppression, trashed cholesterol and the worst part: toxicity. When these gained popularity 8-9 years ago, it was declared they did none of this which made them a great alternative to run between cycles. Every time I see labs like this, I think “what’s even the point?” And I’m not a sarm hater, I even have some Osta I was going to give a try a year ago, then I did some research and I didn’t like what I found.
 
Old Witch

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Another reason to just take steroids. Even methylated steroids... they’ll probably not even do this to most guys (Alt 400+) and you get real results.
 
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jim2509

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That’s the problem. I don’t even think RC’s and UGL’s are faking Sarms, I think the raws are inconsistent or something. Labs are all over the place with these things. More often than not, massive suppression, trashed cholesterol and the worst part: toxicity. When these gained popularity 8-9 years ago, it was declared they did none of this which made them a great alternative to run between cycles. Every time I see labs like this, I think “what’s even the point?” And I’m not a sarm hater, I even have some Osta I was going to give a try a year ago, then I did some research and I didn’t like what I found.
This is good point. We rely on the supplement company to have really good sources and the purity to be very very good. If it isnt then as you suggest the side effects can be awful unlike 6-9 years ago.

Dont suppose you can elaborate on 'then I did some research and I didn’t like what I found.'
 
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user567

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I have done 4-5 LGD cycles with bloods during every run. No elevated liver enzymes on any of them.

I will say this I used to be an Olympus labs fan. Many years ago I ran their Ostarine and felt like absolute **** on it after a few weeks. Had to stop. Your TEST is very low for 34 days in as well. I would question what your really taking.
 
gigante35

gigante35

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Similar experience here with olympus gharine, ast went to 70 and alt to 130. There is info on web they had started selling prohormones under sarms. Have had run mk 677 by dna after this and everything was ok.
 
Matthersby

Matthersby

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Any chance it was just an error on the test? How the hell does he have those levels and no dark urine??
Too many variables.
Some on-cycle have dark urine because they don’t adjust their water intake, even though they are holding lbs and lbs more water in the muscle.
Or he may just have elevated enzymes but the liver is still kicking and hasn’t allowed bilirubin to elevate in the blood. Next week, or the next, he could develop darker urine and then inevitably jaundice. Or next month.
Or maybe he’s just really diligent at hydrating. Most aren’t, but it’s amazing what one can do with 5 gallons of water.
You can literally PASS a drug test by “water blocking”, they will have the clearest urine on earth and you can’t even detect substances in it. The idea is nuts but it works. That’s why they have a test specifically for water blocking called a specific gravity test and you will automatically fail a drug screen if yours is out of range.

Urine color is never an indicator of liver stress, labs 100% are though.
 
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timberx

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Ok, so I got results in and they are not any better..... I have to guess that I was taking some very toxic crap labled as LGD. Shame that Olympus UK is going down, I found out other topics about them selling crap also on here recently.

At least Gamma-glutamyltransferase(GGT) is within the norm. From what I understand it shows long term damage, which I dont have at the moment.

My results are not in English, forgot to ask this lab. But only 3 results, ASAT=AST, ALAT=ALT and the third one is Gamma-glutamyltransferase.

So the question is now, do I start my PCT with such high results? I read that Clomid and Tamoxifen is not easy on liver either.... should I just stick with my liver support supplements for now and add in some test booster? Not sure what to do, my original plan was to go to a endocrinologist(I talked with him already when I started this damn cycle) when I am close to the end of my cycle and then he prescribes me whatever I need for PCT based on results(proper Clomid/Nolva dosages).... now I think, maybe I should visit a doctor that specializes in liver problems?

Here is what I got for liver support now:

San Liver Support:



and

Revange LiveR Triple Action:

 

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Matthersby

Matthersby

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YES. Run a good dose of Clomid and maybe 10mg Nolva.
They WILL NOT do anything to your liver that’s not already done.
They aren’t “toxic” per se. no more than vitamin C is in large doses.
Just get loads of those two products you posted on board and start your post cycle.
I personally would look at recommended dose of both liver support supps and take roughly double.
 
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timberx

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YES. Run a good dose of Clomid and maybe 10mg Nolva.
They WILL NOT do anything to your liver that’s not already done.
They aren’t “toxic” per se. no more than vitamin C is in large doses.
Just get loads of those two products you posted on board and start your post cycle.
I personally would look at recommended dose of both liver support supps and take roughly double.
Thanks! Any idea what my diet should be to recover faster? I was thinking just boiled potatoes or white rice and some boiled chicken, small portions, to not put even more pressure on liver + drink lots of water.
 
gigante35

gigante35

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Take ambrosia nektar by power....lf, it will cure you easy and fast. I like it because it is not in capsule form, and take load of tudca at least 500 mg per day.
 
gigante35

gigante35

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Serving Size: One scoop (6.20g)
Servings Per Container: 30


Chromium (as Chromium Picolinate) (Chromax®) 200mcg 167%
Red Yeast Rice Extract (0.1% Monacolin K) (Monascus purpureus) (Seed) 600mg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine 600mg
Hawthorn Berry Extract 4:1 (Crataegus Oxyacantha) (Fruit) 500mg
Milk Thistle Extract (80% Silymarin) (Silybum marianum) (Seed) 250mg
Pumpkin Seed Extract 10:1 (Curcubita pepo) 240mg
Red Clover Extract (8% Isoflavones) (Trifolium pretense) (Flower) 150mg
Stinging Nettle Root Extract 4:1 (Urtica dioica) 125mg
Celery Seed Extract (3% Flavones) (Apium graveolens) 75mg
Resveratrol (from Polygonum cuspidatum Root Standardized Extract) 50mg
Co-Enzyme Q10 50mg
Policosanol 10mg
DirectionsConsume one scoop one time per day in 8-16 oz water. Shake in a shaker bottle vigorously for at least 10 seconds
 
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timberx

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Serving Size: One scoop (6.20g)
Servings Per Container: 30


Chromium (as Chromium Picolinate) (Chromax®) 200mcg 167%
Red Yeast Rice Extract (0.1% Monacolin K) (Monascus purpureus) (Seed) 600mg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine 600mg
Hawthorn Berry Extract 4:1 (Crataegus Oxyacantha) (Fruit) 500mg
Milk Thistle Extract (80% Silymarin) (Silybum marianum) (Seed) 250mg
Pumpkin Seed Extract 10:1 (Curcubita pepo) 240mg
Red Clover Extract (8% Isoflavones) (Trifolium pretense) (Flower) 150mg
Stinging Nettle Root Extract 4:1 (Urtica dioica) 125mg
Celery Seed Extract (3% Flavones) (Apium graveolens) 75mg
Resveratrol (from Polygonum cuspidatum Root Standardized Extract) 50mg
Co-Enzyme Q10 50mg
Policosanol 10mg
DirectionsConsume one scoop one time per day in 8-16 oz water. Shake in a shaker bottle vigorously for at least 10 seconds
Thanks bro, but I live in Eastern Europe, I dont have that available, gotta order from US seems like, will take like 2 weeks. UK and other EU countries dont have it seems like, did a quick google search. Those two supplements that I mentioned on here are the only decent ones I could get my hands on asap.
 
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timberx

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I haven't seen anything in the literature saying SARMS trash your liver.
Another interesting thing is that my ALT/AST skyrocketed after I started using 2nd Olympus LGD bottle(to take when Im at work, etc.). The first bottle that I used for my first ~2 weeks barely moved AST/ALT, it is possible that 2nd bottle is the one that is causing this bullchit and skyrocket my ALT 9x above range in just 2.5 weeks.
 
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Mr Giggles

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Another interesting thing is that my ALT/AST skyrocketed after I started using 2nd Olympus LGD bottle(to take when Im at work, etc.). The first bottle that I used for my first ~2 weeks barely moved AST/ALT, it is possible that 2nd bottle is the one that is causing this bullchit and skyrocket my ALT 9x above range in just 2.5 weeks.
It's highly likely your second bottle was contaminated. I have heard it time and time again, the SARMS you get, are anything but SARMS.

Most of the reports I have heard from people taking ACTUAL sarms have had nothing but good results .
 

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