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ProSynthesis-17 vs. today's EEA products (more info)

Please no artificial sweeteners/flavors.
No worries. :)

Well, there might be some artificial flavors (possibly), but there definitely won't be any artificial sweeteners. It just depends on how it tastes. If I can make it taste good enough with only natural flavoring, I will do it. I just don't want it to taste like ****. It doesn't have to taste great, but it can't taste bad. :)
 
I guess I’m truly the only one that likes my sweetners artificial and (fake) sweet!

I also usually add a drop of flavor to pretty much any powdered product. Humapro I specifically remember was quite hard to mask the flavor, but their base flavors (kiwi strawberry and maybe an apple one?) were also not my favorites to start with
Artificial sweeteners/flavors can taste good, but the problem is they're just not good for you.
 
It's still going to work just fine spreading out it 30-60 minutes, but I would make sure to drink at least half of it upfront. You want enough of the EAAs in your bloodstream at once to stop catabolism and activate anabolism.

Sounds good, I appreciate it. I just remember you saying you would recommend drinking before or after training instead of sipping throughout.
 
What would be your request if you had to pick a single flavor to consume daily?
I think a non-descript fruit punch is always a safe bet. Personally, I actually look forward to drinking NutraBio's peach and coconut forward flavored NY Punch, but I admit that may be more of a niche flavor.

The last lemon flavored supplement I used, a sleep aid named Sueno, left a bad taste in my mouth, pardon the pun. I tossed approx half a tub, it was so offensive.
 
I think a non-descript fruit punch is always a safe bet. Personally, I actually look forward to drinking NutraBio's peach and coconut forward flavored NY Punch, but I admit that may be more of a niche flavor.

The last lemon flavored supplement I used, a sleep aid named Sueno, left a bad taste in my mouth, pardon the pun. I tossed approx half a tub, it was so offensive.

Nutrabio’s NY Punch is one of the most egregious flavors I’ve ever had the displeasure of suffering through. Their Peachy Glutes isn’t far behind in my book, either.

You and I, my friend, will have to agree to disagree on our flavoring preferences
 
Can Today's EAA Products Activate Muscle Growth?

When it comes to growing muscle tissue, essential amino acids are the most effective product on the market, but how do they work? Aside from providing the building blocks for muscle growth, they are known for activating of one of the body's most powerful growth regulators, mTOR. Leucine is the major player here, and for this reason we saw BCAA products (a combination of leucine, isoleucine, and valine) dominate the market for years. But recently, research has shown that having all 9 EEAs present (which includes the BCAAs) is a much more effective option.

But what if this wasn't the most effective option? What if EAAs actually weren't able to activate mTOR by themselves? Impossible, right? Wrong. As it turns out, EAAs can NOT activate mTOR without first being exposed to "priming" amino acids. This 2-step process, known as priming & activation, is critical for mTOR-mediated muscle growth to occur.

The take home message here is simple.

If your amino acid product does not contain one or more of these "priming" amino acids, it cannot stimulate mTOR-mediated muscle growth. The body MUST have one or more of these amino acids present in order for EAA products to do their job. If you're already have adequate quantities of these aminos circulating in your bloodstream, you're covered. If not, you're screwed. What does this mean for people who use EEA products prior to training in the morning...or at any other time they haven't eaten for a while? It means they aren't able to activate mTOR, which means they can't effectively activate protein synthesis, which means they can't effectively stimulate muscle growth.

The solution? Make sure your EAA product contains these priming aminos.

Below you will find one of many studies explaining this reality.


Amino Acids Regulate mTORC1 by an Obligate Two-step Mechanism
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Affiliations expand
  • PMID: 27587390
  • PMCID: Invalid Link Removed
  • DOI: Invalid Link Removed
Free PMC article
Erratum in
  • Invalid Link Removed
    Dyachok J, Earnest S, Iturraran EN, Cobb MH, Ross EM.J Biol Chem. 2020 Jun 26;295(26):8868. doi: 10.1074/jbc.AAC120.014360.PMID: 32591444 Free PMC article. No abstract available.
Abstract
The mechanistic target of rapamycin complex 1 (mTORC1) coordinates cell growth with its nutritional, hormonal, energy, and stress status. Amino acids are critical regulators of mTORC1 that permit other inputs to mTORC1 activity. However, the roles of individual amino acids and their interactions in mTORC1 activation are not well understood. Here we demonstrate that activation of mTORC1 by amino acids includes two discrete and separable steps: priming and activation. Sensitizing mTORC1 activation by priming amino acids is a prerequisite for subsequent stimulation of mTORC1 by activating amino acids. Priming is achieved by a group of amino acids that includes l-asparagine, l-glutamine, l-threonine, l-arginine, l-glycine, l-proline, l-serine, l-alanine, and l-glutamic acid. The group of activating amino acids is dominated by l-leucine but also includes l-methionine, l-isoleucine, and l-valine. l-Cysteine predominantly inhibits priming but not the activating step. Priming and activating steps differ in their requirements for amino acid concentration and duration of treatment. Priming and activating amino acids use mechanisms that are distinct both from each other and from growth factor signaling. Neither step requires intact tuberous sclerosis complex of proteins to activate mTORC1. Concerted action of priming and activating amino acids is required to localize mTORC1 to lysosomes and achieve its activation.
 
Can Today's EAA Products Activate Muscle Growth?

When it comes to growing muscle tissue, essential amino acids are the most effective product on the market, but how do they work? Aside from providing the building blocks for muscle growth, they are known for activating of one of the body's most powerful growth regulators, mTOR. Leucine is the major player here, and for this reason we saw BCAA products (a combination of leucine, isoleucine, and valine) dominate the market for years. But recently, research has shown that having all 9 EEAs present (which includes the BCAAs) is a much more effective option.

But what if this wasn't the most effective option? What if EAAs actually weren't able to activate mTOR by themselves? Impossible, right? Wrong. As it turns out, EAAs can NOT activate mTOR without first being exposed to "priming" amino acids. This 2-step process, known as priming & activation, is critical for mTOR-mediated muscle growth to occur.

The take home message here is simple.

If your amino acid product does not contain one or more of these "priming" amino acids, it cannot stimulate mTOR-mediated muscle growth. The body MUST have one or more of these amino acids present in order for EAA products to do their job. If you're already have adequate quantities of these aminos circulating in your bloodstream, you're covered. If not, you're screwed. What does this mean for people who use EEA products prior to training in the morning...or at any other time they haven't eaten for a while? It means they aren't able to activate mTOR, which means they can't effectively activate protein synthesis, which means they can't effectively stimulate muscle growth.

The solution? Make sure your EAA product contains these priming aminos.

Below you will find one of many studies explaining this reality.


Amino Acids Regulate mTORC1 by an Obligate Two-step Mechanism
Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed
Affiliations expand
  • PMID: 27587390
  • PMCID: Invalid Link Removed
  • DOI: Invalid Link Removed
Free PMC article
Erratum in
  • Invalid Link Removed
    Dyachok J, Earnest S, Iturraran EN, Cobb MH, Ross EM.J Biol Chem. 2020 Jun 26;295(26):8868. doi: 10.1074/jbc.AAC120.014360.PMID: 32591444 Free PMC article. No abstract available.
Abstract
The mechanistic target of rapamycin complex 1 (mTORC1) coordinates cell growth with its nutritional, hormonal, energy, and stress status. Amino acids are critical regulators of mTORC1 that permit other inputs to mTORC1 activity. However, the roles of individual amino acids and their interactions in mTORC1 activation are not well understood. Here we demonstrate that activation of mTORC1 by amino acids includes two discrete and separable steps: priming and activation. Sensitizing mTORC1 activation by priming amino acids is a prerequisite for subsequent stimulation of mTORC1 by activating amino acids. Priming is achieved by a group of amino acids that includes l-asparagine, l-glutamine, l-threonine, l-arginine, l-glycine, l-proline, l-serine, l-alanine, and l-glutamic acid. The group of activating amino acids is dominated by l-leucine but also includes l-methionine, l-isoleucine, and l-valine. l-Cysteine predominantly inhibits priming but not the activating step. Priming and activating steps differ in their requirements for amino acid concentration and duration of treatment. Priming and activating amino acids use mechanisms that are distinct both from each other and from growth factor signaling. Neither step requires intact tuberous sclerosis complex of proteins to activate mTORC1. Concerted action of priming and activating amino acids is required to localize mTORC1 to lysosomes and achieve its activation.
 
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Just when you think you're smart, Mike Arnold walks in the room... :geek::unsure::confused::cry:

Thanks Mike, I can't wait to get a little time to read your post. And I can't wait til waaaay down the road when I actually understand all of it! :ROFLMAO:
 
I’m extremely happy to hear you say all of this. I feel similarly about the rampant over-sweetening of supplements. If I wanted a treat I’d go buy some ice cream; I just need something I can tolerate over and over, and sometimes I don’t want to have to dilute something with twice the recommended fluid because I can’t handle how sweet it is at 5:30am (or make it into a shot to knock it down because it’s so incredibly sweet).

I agree but 99% of the time the ONLY thing the <30 crowd cares about is flavor. I ask some of my customers what they think of a product I don't carry but am considering and they always launch into this long drawn out critique of the flavor and texture like they are a highly regarded food critic. Ugh.

To me almost everything today tastes GOOD ENOUGH to use but it is the number one thing most companies are spending money on. Flavoring and all these "collabs" with the toxic food industry are all the rage. Want whey isolate but also want your fat ass chips ahoy? No problem Ghost to the rescue!

/rant
 
I agree but 99% of the time the ONLY thing the
To me almost everything today tastes GOOD ENOUGH to use but it is the number one thing most companies are spending money on. Flavoring and all these "collabs" with the toxic food industry are all the rage. Want whey isolate but also want your fat ass chips ahoy? No problem Ghost to the rescue!

/rant

Those people aren’t going to be repeat buyers. They have supplement ADHD and will bounce to the next amino acid product next month anyway.
 
Thank you. :)

I prefer pre-training simply because research shows that consuming EAAs/protein before training leads to a greater uptake in amino acids compared to post-training.

Citrulline is not only beneficial for nitric oxide production. It also increases protein synthesis, which is the primary reason it has been added to be product. Depending on the results desired, ProSyntheis-17 should be used 1-3X daily. Ideal times to use the product are shortly after waking up in the morning (at least 30 minutes before consuming any whole food), pre-training and immediately before bed.

Do we know the minimum dose of citrulline needed to stimulate MPS? Thank you.
 
Because the research was a bit muddy and there definitely was short period of time when products came out to follow this trend (in the early 2000s?), but they didn't really stick. Honestly at the time people were barely just jumping on the amino acid train with things like Scivation Xtend so it was maybe "too soon" to convince people to slam some EAAs pre versus some Whey post.

FWIW this product does sound interesting. The whole pixie dusting of EAAs (like s 6g "EAA" that is 5g BCAA, blah) and using like 25mg of Methionine in a formula have been some minor pet peeves of mine.

I too find the dose missing but of all the things in the industry I dislike I COMPLETELY understand this move by most companies. You cannot survive as a company if 90% of the public will not consume the product based on taste.

I tried duct tapping a bottle of methionine and tryptophan to all the EAA's we carry but it didn't catch on. Oh well.
 
Nutrabio’s NY Punch is one of the most egregious flavors I’ve ever had the displeasure of suffering through. Their Peachy Glutes isn’t far behind in my book, either.

You and I, my friend, will have to agree to disagree on our flavoring preferences
What are some specific flavors you'd highly recommend?

My issue with lemon is that I prefer a mellow lemon flavor. Even something like an iced tea lemonade. The more complex a formulation is, the stronger the lemon flavor must be and that could lead to too much tartness and acidity. Go too light on the flavor and you get a weird lemon chemical taste.
 
What are some specific flavors you'd highly recommend?

My issue with lemon is that I prefer a mellow lemon flavor. Even something like an iced tea lemonade. The more complex a formulation is, the stronger the lemon flavor must be and that could lead to too much tartness and acidity. Go too light on the flavor and you get a weird lemon chemical taste.

Flavors I’ve found most repeatable, and that mix best with the widest variety of other flavors, would be lemon, lime, berry flavors. Traditional/mild fruit punch and grape are more hit or miss, but still offer a lot of flexibility.
 
I Like Most Berry Flavors. I like grape but may get "Tired Of It" after awhile.
 
I got really tired of blue raspberry. It sounded refreshing 10 years ago and then somehow became absolutely everywhere. Also hard to mix and lots of food coloring. I do like my sweetners but would happily pass on all the coloring
 
I agree but 99% of the time the ONLY thing the <30 crowd cares about is flavor. I ask some of my customers what they think of a product I don't carry but am considering and they always launch into this long drawn out critique of the flavor and texture like they are a highly regarded food critic. Ugh.

To me almost everything today tastes GOOD ENOUGH to use but it is the number one thing most companies are spending money on. Flavoring and all these "collabs" with the toxic food industry are all the rage. Want whey isolate but also want your fat ass chips ahoy? No problem Ghost to the rescue!

/rant
I feel similarly. I can't blame a company for catering to the market, but it does seem odd to me that some customers prioritize taste over effectiveness, when the entire reason for purchasing the product to begin with is results.
 
Do we know the minimum dose of citrulline needed to stimulate MPS? Thank you.
It is dose-dependent (up to a point). Even tiny amounts are better than nothing, but when you see companies adding 100-200 mg...or something like that, it isn't having much of an effect.

Pro-Syntheis-17 doesn't have tiny amounts of citrulline, but don't expect the dosage to be what you would see with a high-end pump product. It's just not feasible to add those dosages when trying to make a cost-effective amino acid product. If I added huge dosages, people would be paying for a citrulline product, rather than an EAA product.

The main goal with ProSynthesis-17 is to make the most effective EAA-amino product on the market, and citrulline is part of that equation. It has been added in effective (but not massive) dosages. If the product is used even 2X daily, the citrulline dose is very respectable; equivalent to many mid-range pump products. Initially, ProSynthesis-17 was going to contain a lower dose of citrulline, but I decided to increase the dose in order impart nitric oxide benefits, as well.

As far as the betaine goes, it has also been added at respectable dosages. Just a single serving contains close to the typical clinical dose. When using 2 servings daily, it is well over that....and at 3 servings is way above clinical doses.

Making high-end products is always a challenge. It is easy to keep adding more and more stuff when formulating a product, until one realizes that the production cost is going to be through the roof and place the product price way outside of what most people consider acceptable. So, balance is key. My main focus was making sure ProSynthesis-17 was the most effective EAA product on the market...and after I achieved that, I added as much betaine, citrulline, taurine, etc., as I could without adversely affecting the price. I think most people will be happy.
 
I too find the dose missing but of all the things in the industry I dislike I COMPLETELY understand this move by most companies. You cannot survive as a company if 90% of the public will not consume the product based on taste.
It would be great if most customers were hardcore trainers willing to mortify their taste buds for results, but unfortunately, most aren't :)
I tried duct tapping a bottle of methionine and tryptophan to all the EAA's we carry but it didn't catch on. Oh well.
See bold above.
 
I agree but 99% of the time the ONLY thing the
To me almost everything today tastes GOOD ENOUGH to use but it is the number one thing most companies are spending money on. Flavoring and all these "collabs" with the toxic food industry are all the rage. Want whey isolate but also want your fat ass chips ahoy? No problem Ghost to the rescue!

/rant
Agree. Esp the part about toxic food industry, wish I knew everything I know now 20 yrs ago lol
 
My first protein was hydrolyzed protein from Arla ( We used to buy 20 lbs or more lbs, I can't remember that bags from them)
Damn, I cannot forget that flavor, just horrible, but I was so happy because it was the best quality protein in the market at that time.

Give us a good flavor! :))
 
Limeade would be nice. Alpha Lion makes a nice one. Blood Orange is good too. I get the pushback for lemon.

Only flavor that would be a deal breaker for me is blue raspberry. So sick of that flavor, it makes me sick to think about lol.
 
I feel similarly. I can't blame a company for catering to the market, but it does seem odd to me that some customers prioritize taste over effectiveness, when the entire reason for purchasing the product to begin with is results.

These are the same people that pay for a gym membership they don't use!
 
Limeade would be nice. Alpha Lion makes a nice one. Blood Orange is good too. I get the pushback for lemon.

Only flavor that would be a deal breaker for me is blue raspberry. So sick of that flavor, it makes me sick to think about lol.

Blue Raspberry is my least favorite flavor ...
 
I feel similarly. I can't blame a company for catering to the market, but it does seem odd to me that some customers prioritize taste over effectiveness, when the entire reason for purchasing the product to begin with is results.

Well this is not the first and certainly will not be the last time a couple of guys who are not as young as they once were consider todays "youths and young adults" to have their priorities out of whack. lol.
 
My first protein was hydrolyzed protein from Arla ( We used to buy 20 lbs or more lbs, I can't remember that bags from them)
Damn, I cannot forget that flavor, just horrible, but I was so happy because it was the best quality protein in the market at that time.

Give us a good flavor! :))

I remember an old Muscle Tech "Special Ad Report" in Muscle Mag International where they were telling the story of Greg Kovacs and how he did not wait for Meso-Tech to be flavored properly and demanded access to it early in the "development." I remember thinking how hardcore that was and of course cool, lol. We really have go pretty far in the other direction.
 
Bill Phillips first Met-RX that you had to mixed the two together was the first decent tastings protein I ever had.
 
I don't need it to taste amazing. Just good enough to down. With the amount of EAA's I thought citrus was a safe bet.

I'm buying a few tubs regardless and will be using it exclusively as my EAA in my intra. Morhogen has a solid formula imo but I know this will be better so I'm waiting patiently and supporting Mike.
 
I better start drinking my current stash of BCAA's & EAA's double time !!
 
What's the ETA on this? I have been meaning to try collision course for awhile now will pick up both at the same time.
 
How does this compare to 100% hydrolyzed whey isolate which is what I currently use .
 
How does this compare to 100% hydrolyzed whey isolate which is what I currently use .
Hi. You would have to be more specific. "Compare" in what way? EAAS and hydrolyzed protein are two different products.
 
I have a sense that prosynthesis -17 will be one of the best supplements EVER for pure muscle growth

It sure is sounding that way !!!

Color Me Excited !!
 
Hi. You would have to be more specific. "Compare" in what way? EAAS and hydrolyzed protein are two different products.

For mps. The major difference besides absorption is less calories I’m guessing since it’s mostly Eaa in your product vs hydro whey has all 22.
 
What’s the current ETA on ProSynthesis-17, Mike?

Looking forward to trying this one.
Looking like December at the moment. I'm super excited myself, this is something I'm personally stocking up on. Love my aminos around workouts.
 
What’s the current ETA on ProSynthesis-17, Mike?

Looking forward to trying this one.
My manufacturer is taking forever. I've made ZERO progress in the last 3 weeks. I just need to taste a sample, adjust it if needed, and then have it made. If it was prioritized, I could have a sample this week and have it produced within 2 weeks, but I know that won't happen. I am likely looking at a mid-December release.
 
Thank you guys, sounds great . We’d all love it now obviously, but this is the state of the industry & we all want decent flavoring just as much. Not that useful if it’s not drinkable!
 
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