Progesterone induced gynocomastia and Prolactin Raised - would cabergoline help in bringing down both? - BLOODS ATTACHED

Dmzjne

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Are you in PCT currently? I have no experience with caber, but if bloodwork indicates high estrogen/ high prolactin then can't hurt. I'm currently running Test/ Tren and noticed higher prolactin; puffy/ sore nips.

I have since added;
Toremifene @ 50 mg every 4th day
Raloxifene @ 100 mg every day
1 gram Vitex (whole fruit)
B vitamin complex w/ P5P

It has been about ten days and slight puffiness/ irritation has ceased. Caber is effective, however I would only recommend for extreme cases. Alot of guys still use caber, but IMO it's outdated. It has also been linked to heart valve damage.

That being said. Frequently getting your bloodwork done, should be priority. Otherwise you would be selling yourself short of possible recovery
 

skyline999

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No I’m not on PCT, my test went quite high on finasteride and then I started getting issues like what you body builders would face after a long run on testosterone/anabolics so I joined this forum as a lot of what you guys make sense as to what what going on with my body. In effect I think by body has kind of shut down as a post finasteride “pct” hasn’t been run. Any thoughts on what to use? I’m currently running caber for a month from my doc but symptoms are still present.

oestrogen writhing rage
Testosterone within range
Progesterone raise
Prolactin raised
SHBG raised


Bloods

Albumin - 35-50 g/l
- result 41.5 g/l

Shbg - 18.3 - 54 n/mol
- result 55 n/mol

FSH - 1.5 - 12.4 iu/l
- result 3.99 i/ul

LH - 1.7 - 8.6 iu/l
- result 5.39 i/ul

Oestradiol - 41 - 159 pmol/L
- result 57 pmol/L

Testosterone - 8.64 - 29 nmol/L
- result 20nmol/L

Free test - 0.2 - 0.62 nmol/L
- result 0.358 nmol/L

Free androgen - 24 - 104
- result 41

Prolactin - 86 - 324 mu/L
result 580 mu/l

DHEA Sulphate - 4.34 - 12.2 umol/L
- result 9.44 umol/l

Progesterone <0.474 nmol/L -
result 1.1 nmol/L


Liver health

Bilirubin - < 24 umol/L
result 11.3 umol/L

ALP - < 130 IU/L
result - 68 iu/L

ALT < 50 IU/L
result - 44 IU/L

GGT 10 - 71 iU/L
result - 17 iu/l
 
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Dmzjne

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No I’m not on PCT, my test went quite high on finasteride and then I started getting issues like what you body builders would face after a long run on testosterone/anabolics so I joined this forum as a lot of what you guys make sense as to what what going on with my body. In effect I think by body has kind of shut down as a post finasteride “pct” hasn’t been run. Any thoughts on what to use? I’m currently running caber for a month from my doc but symptoms are still present.

oestrogen writhing rage
Testosterone within range
Progesterone raise
Prolactin raised
SHBG raised
It's possible that even WITH estrogen in range; estrogen could still be slightly elevated. High SHBG should be addressed as well.

Most likely, the caber will be more effective; used concurrently with letrozole, AND the SERM raloxifene (Evista). MA research and Premier essentials are very respected board sponsors. Should you need to acquire Serms/ AI's.

As for lowering SHBG; letrozole should accomplish this
 

Dmzjne

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Ok didn't see the panel you posted.

Your estrogen is low/ normal. However I still advice the use of an AI, but not letrozole. For this situation Aromasin (exemestane) would be better. Plus the cabergoline, and the SERM (specifically raloxifene)
 

skyline999

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So you’re saying I should ask my doc to continue caber whilst asking for aromasin and raloxifene?

Won’t the AI and SERM crush my estrogen too low?
 

Dmzjne

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So you’re saying I should ask my doc to continue caber whilst asking for aromasin and raloxifene?

Won’t the AI and SERM crush my estrogen too low?
If your doctor is understanding, and willing to prescribe you AI/ Serms; by all means ask for them. This could get relatively expensive though, unless you have good health insurance (in the US anyway). However the research company's I mentioned are of exceptional quality, should your doctor/ healthcare system railroad you.

Upon re - examining your blood panel; I noticed your free test/ androgen levels are very low. Originally I thought high SHBG was causing this. BUT your bloods actually show SHBG to be in range, however raised. This leads me to believe finasteride caused your gyno. Why? Because it's an ANTI androgen, and you were NOT taking androgens to balance this out. This is why MOST guys who cycle, are only using finasteride DURING the cycle/ whilst taking other androgens (to adequately supply the other hormones needed.) This way the body isn't confused trying to reach homeostasis.

IMO anti - androgens; should only be taken with androgens
 

Dmzjne

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Won’t the AI and SERM crush my estrogen too low?
This is somewhat of a fallacy. First generation SERMs (clomiphene/ tamoxifen) will somewhat lower TOTAL estrogen; after months/ years of continuous use. However second generation SERMs (toremifene/ raloxifene) will target estrogen more selectively in the body. They are MUCH less toxic, and more efficient at their specific purpose.

As for crashing estrogen from Serm/ AI combo? It's possible, however that is why I recommended Aromasin over Letro. Aromasin only inhibits estrogen partially. Meaning a full 25 mg dose, only reduces 60 - 70 percent of estrogen. The same dose will ALSO significantly lower SHBG, and therefore raise; free and total test/ androgens.

It is STILL possible to crash your estrogen initially. But within a few weeks your SHBG should be lowered; hence increasing total T levels, providing the body with more estrogen as well
 
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KvanH

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So you’re saying I should ask my doc to continue caber whilst asking for aromasin and raloxifene?

Won’t the AI and SERM crush my estrogen too low?
Serms don't lower E, just occupy the receptors selectively on the body, so that E can't bind to the receptors. Raloxifene has the highest binding affinity to breast tissue and thus is the best serm for gyno control or attempted reversal. I don't think you should be taking any AI's though. Your E2 is not high, actually quite low already. Crashed E is not good. The lowering of shbg would be good, but I presume the effect of an AI on lowering the E further would be greater, than the increase in E from increased free T and freeing E from the shbg.

Outside of the prolactin and progesterone only your shbg is out of ordinary. You could try boron and tongat ali for lowering shbg (don't know how effective they are, but they are used for that).

Continue the caber as your doc has put you on it and you can try the Ralox too. It's a safe drug and the best for gyno as mentioned and won't lower your E. I think AI's would do more harm than good in your situation. Just my opinion.
 
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thebigt

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i was lost at...'my test went quite high on finasteride'

are you saying finasteride increased your testosterone?
 
KvanH

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i was lost at...'my test went quite high on finasteride'

are you saying finasteride increased your testosterone?
It inhibits the 5-alpha reductase that converts test to DHT, so maybe it can result in increased test? Sounds like the raise on T would be marginal, but I don't know.
 
thebigt

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It inhibits the 5-alpha reductase that converts test to DHT, so maybe it can result in increased test? Sounds like the raise on T would be marginal, but I don't know.
waiting for a supp company to include it in a test booster, lol.;)
 

skyline999

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i was lost at...'my test went quite high on finasteride'

are you saying finasteride increased your testosterone?
yes it did, it was originally on 31 when on finasteride, these bloods are after stopping it
 

skyline999

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Serms don't lower E, just occupy the receptors selectively on the body, so that E can't bind to the receptors. Raloxifene has the highest binding affinity to breast tissue and thus is the best serm for gyno control or attempted reversal. I don't think you should be taking any AI's though. Your E2 is not high, actually quite low already. Crashed E is not good. The lowering of shbg would be good, but I presume the effect of an AI on lowering the E further would be greater, than the increase in E from increased free T and freeing E from the shbg.

Outside of the prolactin and progesterone only your shbg is out of ordinary. You could try boron and tongat ali for lowering shbg (don't know how effective they are, but they are used for that).

Continue the caber as your doc has put you on it and you can try the Ralox too. It's a safe drug and the best for gyno as mentioned and won't lower your E. I think AI's would do more harm than good in your situation. Just my opinion.
Thank you and thank you everyone. So my next step would be to get some Raloxifene, for how long do I run it for?
Would this get rid of the gyno lumps and itchy/puffy nipples?
 

Dmzjne

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Serms don't lower E, just occupy the receptors selectively on the body, so that E can't bind to the receptors
Any conclusive studies on this? I was under the impression (at least in female studies), that extended use of SERMs will eventually lower total estrogen
 
KvanH

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No one knows how well it will work for you, but it's typically the best bet outside of surgery. Your gyno might be only from the elevated prolactin, so it might go away with just the caber.
 
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KvanH

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Any conclusive studies on this? I was under the impression (at least in female studies), that extended use of SERMs will eventually lower total estrogen
To be honest I don't know about extended use. I'm only talking about immediate action and in periodic use.
 

skyline999

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No one knows how well it will work for you, but it's typically the best bet outside of surgery. Your gyno might be only from the elevated prolactin, so it might go away with just the caber.
Have you been in a situation like this before or know of anyone in this situation? I thought some bodybuilders get progesterone induced gyno?
 

Dmzjne

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Thank you and thank you everyone. So my next step would be to get some Raloxifene, for how long do I run it for?
Would this get rid of the gyno lumps and itchy/puffy nipples?
This stuff takes time. It's really impossible to say, without knowing how long the gyno has been there? Usually within a few weeks the tenderness goes away, and then another few weeks/ possibly months before the lumps go away.

The reason I still recommend an AI is two fold. It allows you to control the estrogen in your body; should your blood work/ estrogen level change. You don't have to use the AI every day.

Also just my opinion; nothing about curing male gyno is etched in stone. But so what if you crash your estrogen? Just back off the AI. I would rather deal with crashed estrogen for a few weeks, then be unsuccessful and walking around with gyno
 

skyline999

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H
This stuff takes time. It's really impossible to say, without knowing how long the gyno has been there? Usually within a few weeks the tenderness goes away, and then another few weeks/ possibly months before the lumps go away.

The reason I still recommend an AI is two fold. It allows you to control the estrogen in your body; should your blood work/ estrogen level change. You don't have to use the AI every day.

Also just my opinion; nothing about curing male gyno is etched in stone. But so what if you crash your estrogen? Just back off the AI. I would rather deal with crashed estrogen for a few weeks, then be unsuccessful and walking around with gyno
How is crashed estrogen treated though? Because low estrogen puts me back in the same boat of low libido etc?
 
KvanH

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H

How is crashed estrogen treated though? Because low estrogen puts me back in the same boat of low libido etc?
Low estro would be treated with the cessation of the AI and letting the body to produce some E to get levels back up. Or dhea could be taken to get levels up quicker or just take estrogens.

But for @Dmzjne what use would it be to lower E when it's pretty low already? Especially if using the serm that will occupy the receptors? Not looking to argue here or anything, I just strongly believe using an AI in this situation would do more harm than good. I'm definitely not a now it all or an expert even.

Edit: I guess you gave the thought behind your pov above already. I still don't see a reason for the E to start rising, but I guess you could take a low dose AI just to make sure it won't raise. And I've seen people have success with gyno reversal with crashing their E with Letro while simultaneously taking Ralox, but who knows how much the AI added to it.
 
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KvanH

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Have you been in a situation like this before or know of anyone in this situation? I thought some bodybuilders get progesterone induced gyno?
No I can't recall. Have you tried the search function on this forum?
 

skyline999

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Low estro would be treated with the cessation of the AI and letting the body to produce some E to get levels back up. Or dhea could be taken to get levels up quicker or just take estrogens.

But for @Dmzjne what use would it be to lower E when it's pretty low already? Especially if using the serm that will occupy the receptors? Not looking to argue here or anything, I just strongly believe using an AI in this situation would do more harm than good. I'm definitely not a not it all or an expert even.

Edit: I guess you gave the thought behind your pov above already. I still don't see a reason for the E to start rising, but I guess you could take a low dose AI just to make sure it won't raise. And I've seen people have success with gyno reversal with crashing their E with Letro while simultaneously taking Ralox, but who knows how much the AI added to it.
So what’s the final verdict/path I should go down then?
 
KvanH

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So what’s the final verdict/path I should go down then?
I can't really give you a final verdict. You had my opinion a few posts above and you've had @Dmzjne 's opinion too (who knows about these stuff btw based on the posts I've seen from him). You could also ask your doctor what he thinks of adding anything else, but my assumption is he/she will say just stay on the caber. Rest is pretty much up to you I'm afraid. Maybe someone else will chime in also.
 
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