Pro and post workout shakes.

[KrunkChris]

ok for about the past week ive been doing pre and post workout shakes opposed to just post work out ones. Im wondering if im doing them healthy/correctly because i feel much more bloated/fat.

pre-work out) orange juice, bananas, strawberries, blueberries. and then i usually eat a good piece of pineapple. 30-45mins before workout

post-work out) bananas, little non-fat plain yogurt, peanut butter, 50g protein, non fat milk.

just wondering if their healthy? what i can do to make them healthier? how long before i work out should i drink the pre-shake? and is only one shake (post) necessary?
thanks guys any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Steveoph]

Looks good. Blend the pineapple with the shake to help it digest better, and add some protein in there.

Drop the Peanut-butter from the PWO shake, you want it to digest quickly and fat slows it down.

Timing is subjective, try anywhere from 45-15 mins pre-WO and see how you feel. You want it to be digesting so that you're getting the energy, but not impeding your workout.

PWO Shakes aren't strictly necessary, however they are great ways to get in fast carbs/pro. There is some good research supporting 2 PWO shakes . One immediately PWO, and one an hour after that, which further stimulates muscle growth. I still say PWO shake immediately after, then solid meal about 60-90 minutes after that depending on how big your shake is/your exercise intensity.

Feel free to ask for further clarifications, you asked like 5 diff questions lol

 

[PowerlifterMB]

Drop all fruit. It doesn't cause an insulin response. I guess it'd be ok pre workout but it actually slows digestion post workout. EAt complex carbs pre workout for more energy. I like to have tuna and oats pre workout and dextrose and whey protein shake PWO.

You could have a whey protein shake pre workout too but it's not necessary, milk slows digestion because it's 80% casein. Mix the whey with water for quicker absorption.

 

[Nitrox]

Drop all fruit. It doesn't cause an insulin response.

Wrong.

Any macro that raises blood sugar will trigger an increase in insulin. Fruit does raise blood sugar.

 

[Steveoph]

Wrong.

Any macro that raises blood sugar will trigger an increase in insulin. Fruit does raise blood sugar.

Unripe bananas moreso than ripe ones (Freezer full of diced up bananas... Been there for a while since I rarely make shakes lol). Grapes, pineapples and watermelon are good too, but still nothing wrong with the fruits he mentioned.

 

[KrunkChris]

ok so if i keep the pre workout shake as is, adding very little protien then that one is set. I also eat oatmeal about 30mins before work out, good? and what are some complex carbs i should add to my pre workout diet?

Now for the post workout, if I dont want milk or peanut butter in the shake what should i put with my 50gs of protein?

thanks again guys

 

[suncloud]

complex carbs pre workout, like wheat bread. shoot for 50-75g. 25g of protein pre workout as well. pre workout is absolutely crucial to gaining size - anyone that tells you different is an endomorph.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/4948-pre-workout-more.html

post workout should be the fast digesting carbs - WMS, dextrose, etc, with whatever protein you think you need - 30-35 is best for me. i usually hit 125g carbs post workout, which is overkill for most people.

 

[Steveoph]

ok so if i keep the pre workout shake as is, adding very little protien then that one is set. I also eat oatmeal about 30mins before work out, good? and what are some complex carbs i should add to my pre workout diet?

Now for the post workout, if I dont want milk or peanut butter in the shake what should i put with my 50gs of protein?

thanks again guys

Like Sun and myself mentioned, get some protein in before your workout, helps keep you anabolic. Eating oatmeal 30 mins pre-WO would be pretty hard to digest for most people, but whatever works! I eat my oats 90 mins pre-WO, but it's a meal. You can grind some oats into your pre-WO shake.

Milk is fine PWO, especially skim. PWO alot of people like to do fast/carbs, although even grinding up oats into a shake works. The fast carbs aren't absolutely necessary, although they help with recovery. It's probably the simplest way, and since you just work out your muscles will be screaming for the carbs, and you don't have to worry about storing it as fat.

 

[PowerlifterMB]

Wrong.

Any macro that raises blood sugar will trigger an increase in insulin. Fruit does raise blood sugar.

Fructose doesn't raise leptin because it does not cause an insulin response. It actually causes insulin resistance. Fructose is only utilized by the liver because the liver's the only thing that possesses the fructokinase enzyme needed to process it.

Fructose becomes an unregulated source of acetyl CoA which causes hyperlipidemia and insulin resistance thusly causing a decrease of protein synthesis because the body won't respond as well to insulin.

Check this out

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Oats are complex carbs that's good pre workout. Mix your protein powder in water for faster absorption.

 

[Nitrox]

Fructose doesn't raise leptin because it does not cause an insulin response. It actually causes insulin resistance. Fructose is only utilized by the liver because the liver's the only thing that possesses the fructokinase enzyme needed to process it.

Fructose becomes an unregulated source of acetyl CoA which causes hyperlipidemia and insulin resistance thusly causing a decrease of protein synthesis because the body won't respond as well to insulin.

Ok let me ask a question instead. Why does fruit raise my blood glucose level above baseline and how would my body go about mediating it back to baseline?

 

[PowerlifterMB]

Ok let me ask a question instead. Why does fruit raise my blood glucose level above baseline and how would my body go about mediating it back to baseline?

Very little glucose is yielded from fructose but the reason why fruit would is because fruits are not 100% fructose. Most are glucose and fructose. This glucose from the fruit raises your blood glucose level.

I guess the simple answer to the second part of your question would be that when you exercise your body uses blood and muscle glucose which would return it to baseline.

 

[Nitrox]

Very little glucose is yielded from fructose but the reason why fruit would is because fruits are not 100% fructose. Most are glucose and fructose. This glucose from the fruit raises your blood glucose level.

Yet in your first post you wrote:

Drop all fruit. It doesn't cause an insulin response.

Although I do not want to further complicate the thread, however I must also mention that fat intake will also lead to an increase in blood glucose levels above and beyond the glycerol component. While currently unexplained, it is a recognized phenomenon to which I can personally attest. One of the schools of thought, similar to what you mentioned, is that it interfers with insulin effect (aka increases resistance).

I guess the simple answer to the second part of your question would be that when you exercise your body uses blood and muscle glucose which would return it to baseline.

While physical activity does lower blood glucose levels, you have to do the activity and thus it does not apply to a scenario where you are not physically active post-meal. The body's only mechanism for this is insulin. Even in the case of fat (or aguably fructose) where we believe blood glucose increases due to a temporary increase in resistance the body's only possible method for returning levels to baseline (it always wants to do this) is to produce MORE insulin to compensate.

Thus all macronutrients (alcohol is a bit different) lead to some insulin response with carbohydrate requiring the largest. BTW one cannot directly compare insulin responses to different macros. Hypothetically, take a 500kcal carb meal and a 500kcal fat meal that have the same digestion times. The carb meal will require more insulin to metabolise than the fat meal. That does not mean that the carb meal will lead to more fat gain because the same amount of energy has been consumed and energy is conserved. This is why I am always saying that non-diabetics discussing insulin for body comp management is a waste of time.

Another angle that I will throw in here is how do we know what macro the body uses for what task? For the majority of people, basic metabolism is their major energy expenditure. If a fruit is 50/50 fructose/glucose, who says the fructose can't fuel metabolism and the glucose goes to muscle glycogen. Maybe I just haven't seen any studies...

 

[PowerlifterMB]

Yet in your first post you wrote:



Although I do not want to further complicate the thread, however I must also mention that fat intake will also lead to an increase in blood glucose levels above and beyond the glycerol component. While currently unexplained, it is a recognized phenomenon to which I can personally attest. One of the schools of thought, similar to what you mentioned, is that it interfers with insulin effect (aka increases resistance).



While physical activity does lower blood glucose levels, you have to do the activity and thus it does not apply to a sc
enario where you are not physically active post-meal. The body's only mechanism for this is insulin. Even in the case of fat (or aguably fructose) where we believe blood glucose increases due to a temporary increase in resistance the body's only possible method for returning levels to baseline (it always wants to do this) is to produce MORE insulin to compensate.

Thus all macronutrients (alcohol is a bit different) lead to some insulin response with carbohydrate requiring the largest. BTW one cannot directly compare insulin responses to different macros. Hypothetically, take a 500kcal carb meal and a 500kcal fat meal that have the same digestion times. The carb meal will require more insulin to metabolise than the fat meal. That does not mean that the carb meal will lead to more fat gain because the same amount of energy has been consumed and energy is conserved. This is why I am always saying that non-diabetics discussing insulin for body comp management is a waste of time.

Another angle that I will throw in here is how do we know what macro the body uses for what task? For the majority of people, basic metabolism is their major energy expenditure. If a fruit is 50/50 fructose/glucose, who says the fructose can't fuel metabolism and the glucose goes to muscle glycogen. Maybe I just haven't seen any studies...

I see where the confusion comes in. I should have been more clear. I meant that the fructose in fruit makes it so no insulin spike can happen until after the fructose is digested then after that the blood glucose levels can be altered by the glucose in that fruit and the other things you eat.

"The body's only mechanism for this is insulin."
I'm not sure what your getting at here. When blood glucose levels are raised an insulin response follows. This insulin spike sends the nutrients to the muscles and at a faster rate.

Insulin is one of the most anabolic hormones in the body and is most definitely not a waste of time for non diabetes.

Certain thinks have certain jobs and follow a certain path to do said job. The diagram I believe shows this if not I'll find something else or try to explain this better.

I'm not 100% on some of this but I'm about 80+.

 

[Nitrox]

"The body's only mechanism for this is insulin."
I'm not sure what your getting at here. When blood glucose levels are raised an insulin response follows. This insulin spike sends the nutrients to the muscles and at a faster rate.

Your position is that fructose does not convert to blood glucose but rather causes an increase in insulin resistance and does not illicit an insulin response. If that is the case, my point is that it still HAS to illicit a response because an increase in resistance requires more insulin to overcome it in order to achieve glucose balance (e.g. 90 mg/dL). This is the whole premise with type-2 diabetes; chronic resistance leading to hyperinsulemia.

Insulin is one of the most anabolic hormones in the body and is most definitely not a waste of time for non diabetes.

I'm thinking that you have been reading Berardi's articles. Ok let me use a question again. Suppose you don't have any way of measuring your food energy intake (no fitday, no food labels, no databases). How are you going to use insulin theories to achieve your recomp goals?

PS - I am not picking on you. I am pretty sure that I have read the same types of articles that you have. This is a good learning discussion for exposing, what I feel is, popular misinformation.

 

[ryaroberts]

fruit is great. but in moderation (just like anything else). drop the sugar just a tad. if you really want carbs pre/post workout i like waxy maize starch. however if your going low/no carb i like nuts and peanut butter (by naturally more). of course mix this with 1-1.5-2 scoops of protein.

 

[PowerlifterMB]

Your position is that fructose does not convert to blood glucose but rather causes an increase in insulin resistance and does not illicit an insulin response. If that is the case, my point is that it still HAS to illicit a response because an increase in resistance requires more insulin to overcome it in order to achieve glucose balance (e.g. 90 mg/dL). This is the whole premise with type-2 diabetes; chronic resistance leading to hyperinsulemia.




I'm thinking that you have been reading Berardi's articles. Ok let me use a question again. Suppose you don't have any way of measuring your food energy intake (no fitday, no food labels, no databases). How are you going to use insulin theories to achieve your recomp goals?

PS - I am not picking on you. I am pretty sure that I have read the same types of articles that you have. This is a good learning discussion for exposing, what I feel is, popular misinformation.

I never have stuff to measure my food intake. I get some dextrose and take that for an insulin spike. What's the misconseption?

It takes large amounts of fructose over time to cause insulin resistance. What I'm saying is that fructose doesn't raise blood glucose and doesn't cause an insulin response. But that the glucose you eat after does cause an insulin response and blood glucose to raise. What is there to return to normal if nothing is changed by fructose? The only place in the body it's used is the liver.

I know you're not picking on my nor am I you, just a learning discussion.

 

[Nitrox]

I never have stuff to measure my food intake. I get some dextrose and take that for an insulin spike. What's the misconseption?

Do you own a car? Let say you need to drive from A to B and it is a long distance. Do you just put a bit of gas in the tank and take it that you will have enough to make it? No, you do a bit of rationalizing of HOW MUCH you need to get there. You either look at your fuel gauge or the reading on the gas pump in order to get an idea of quantities.

The same goes for insulin, the more calories you consume, the more insulin your body will have to produce to metabolise it. So if you are trying to gauge how much food you need by your insulin levels, how do you measure it? You can't. You're only guessing and if you guess wrong you either eat too little (catabolic) or too much (excess fat gain).

In order to be anabolic (building complex structures from simple structures) your body needs a net surplus of energy in addition to raw materials. That means that you need to know quantities. 'Some' dextrose could be one teaspoon or one cup, big difference.

I may be incorrectly assuming that peeps here are familiar with classical physics energy and thermodynamic laws. These concepts apply to all known systems including the human body. A couple reads that are written in the human metabolism context:

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So it is just as important to know HOW MUCH in addition to WHAT (you eat). Since the average person has absolutely no way to measure his/her insulin level, it has no practicable use. However, you can readily determine the energy content of a serving of food by measuring the quantity and cross referencing it with a database.

It takes large amounts of fructose over time to cause insulin resistance. What I'm saying is that fructose doesn't raise blood glucose and doesn't cause an insulin response. But that the glucose you eat after does cause an insulin response and blood glucose to raise. What is there to return to normal if nothing is changed by fructose? The only place in the body it's used is the liver.

I understand that is what you are saying and I am telling you that your statement is absolutely incorrect. I have a blood glucose meter and measure my levels. When I eat fructose, my levels go up.

Need more convincing? I assume that you are familiar with the glycemic index. If not here is a read:
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Specifically: GI is a measure of the effects of carbohydrates on blood glucose levels.

Do a search for the GI value of fructose. You should find that it is around 35. This is a non-zero value. By comparison dextrose/glucose is 100. That means that fructose has about 1/3 the effect on blood glucose of pure dextrose/glucose NOT no effect. Again, if it goes up, insulin must be produced to bring it back down.

These reasons are why I argued against your post that fruit cannot trigger insulin response.

 

[Darkstar765]

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