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Prime Vs. Havoc

I used Epistane to put on mass and gained 10lbs without any fat gain. My strength went through the roof as well. I am using Prime during my PCT and I am also focusing on recomp during PCT. I have not lost mass except in the gut. I am down from 208 to 203 and feel my strength has continued to increase even though I am in week 4 of PCT.

On Day 10 of Prime I was able to bench 275lbs 3 times. I hope to test 300lbs tonight to see if Prime is meeting the claims.
 
One thing i've noticed from other loggers is that they seem to get stronger and a little bigger off prime but they all look like they gained fat. Weight gain doesn't mean **** it could all be fat. I'm on prime and i've gained a few pounds and it isn't muscle. I have yet to see someone who looks ripped while using this product.

I've ran quite a few ph/ds cycles and i always leaned up, looked vascular and gained muscle within 4 weeks. I'm on my 5th week of prime and i thinkit's starting to work. With AAS u know when its working. Basically what i'm saying is no matter what anyone says Prime does not compare to any AAS. It does seem to be good to add to your PCT to keep gains.
 
machine528 said:
Last year I did a pulse cycle of epidrol. A general recap of the results I got were as follows; amazing strength gains, When I started I was benching 225 for about 12-13... when I was finished I was in the low 20's and my Max went up about 50-60 pounds on every compound lift. I lost body fat and gained about 10 lean pounds. I felt euphoric and had a slight increase in libido.

When the epidrol cycle was done I kept about 75 percent of my gains, however I felt like crap, libido was down.. mood was down for about a month.

Ive been on Prime for a few weeks and strength gains and body weight gains cant even compare. I may have gained 1-2 reps and im up about 2 pounds. Mood wise I feel prime is better.... its like motivation in pill form. Libido is also alot stronger on prime than it was on epidrol.
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your comparing a pulse cycle to a straight run of prime.... try pulsing prime and see what happens :rolleyes:

In all honesty Havoc/Epistane is going to bring more gains in LBM and only slightly better gains in strength. The thing is with Prime that there is no PCT to run BUT......

.... If I were to have my choice and enough dough I would run the Havoc THEN run Prime in your PCT to make it a breeze.

Comparitively for you....

Epistane, gained 13.5lbs on cycle(+5 in PCT) and over 30lbs added to all lifts.

Prime, gained 11lbs in 5 weeks and also 20-30lbs on various lifts.


remember to get results like this with either of these you need to have a good strict diet and a routine built for growth. Plus dont be afraid to push yourself!
 
joeymutz said:
One thing i've noticed from other loggers is that they seem to get stronger and a little bigger off prime but they all look like they gained fat. Weight gain doesn't mean **** it could all be fat. I'm on prime and i've gained a few pounds and it isn't muscle. I have yet to see someone who looks ripped while using this product.

I've ran quite a few ph/ds cycles and i always leaned up, looked vascular and gained muscle within 4 weeks. I'm on my 5th week of prime and i thinkit's starting to work. With AAS u know when its working. Basically what i'm saying is no matter what anyone says Prime does not compare to any AAS. It does seem to be good to add to your PCT to keep gains.
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hmmmm.... my chest has more definition and arms are an inch bigger.... they dont look like an inch of fat was added to them, or maybe that vein on my peak is just so huge it pokes through.

Also in a completely unflexed state you can see a large difference in size of my delts (measures .5 inches larger). and although I dont have pics of my calves I also added .5inches to them... never heard of people depositing fat on their calves but not their stomach??? (which also measures within .5 inches, bigger on the obliques and lower below them.)



Now I will say I still prefer PH/PS/DS's over prime like products BUT for someone like me this will be a godsend for PCT and for others that have health or personal issues with going the PH/PS/DS/AAS route its a very good comparative alternative.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
:rofl:
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Rather than use derisive smilies, the data is there for you to compile and compare on your own. I will forego spamming this thread with PRIME logs, as such actions are not my modus operandi. Actually, it would be interesting to see the gains on your last cycle, as to compare it to some PRIME logs I have archived. Would be interesting, to say the least. :)

Now, let us address this postulate:

Weight gain doesn't mean **** it could all be fat.
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Therein, several things are assumed and/or overlooked. In shorter oral cycles, very little of the weight gain is striated muscle tissue; while it can be considered LBM in most clinical studies, aldosterone-induced water gain, aromatization, and glycogen storage account for most of the initial weight gain on any AAS Cycle. The development of striated muscle requires both differentiation and proliferation, and this does not occur immediately.

So, as we see, this situation is not as different as you make it seem to be. While individuals often report a leaner, vascular 'look' on steroids, this does not necessarily equate to maintainable muscle. It simply means that muscle hardness has increased due to androgens, and that immensely increased glycogen storage may be manifesting a slight diuretic effect. The fact is, you are incorrect to assume all the gains from steroids are muscle, and none from PRIME are.

The fact is, PRIME may not be mediating any androgenic pathways, and therefore not producing increased hardness or density. This may explain the lack of 'hard' and 'ripped' look which are, in reality, only attainable with strong androgenic compounds.
 
joeymutz said:
One thing i've noticed from other loggers is that they seem to get stronger and a little bigger off prime but they all look like they gained fat. Weight gain doesn't mean **** it could all be fat. I'm on prime and i've gained a few pounds and it isn't muscle. I have yet to see someone who looks ripped while using this product.s.
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Supplements do not make you fat unless you are injesting estrogen.
 
i don't care what anybody says you're not going to get the same results from a form of tribulus or any herb that you will get from steroids. when mass fx came out that was hyped up as being the next amazing thing that gives u steroid gains and was logged as a 10lb gain and crap in a month. it's a decent product but you're not going to gain that much and neither are you on prime. i'm a saying it's a bad product, no. i'm saying take the marketing hype cut that in half and you've got your answer. i also remember all the sick gains testers were supposedly making on the orginal 3ad which is the same ingredient as 11oxo. well that product doesn't do nearly what it claims.
 
also with an herb you're gonna get some people that don't react to it as well. so if u wanna take the safe bet on gauranteed mass pick up the havoc. don't think you're going to see a non responder to that
 
jsp0785 said:
i don't care what anybody says you're not going to get the same results from a form of tribulus or any herb that you will get from steroids. when mass fx came out that was hyped up as being the next amazing thing that gives u steroid gains and was logged as a 10lb gain and crap in a month. it's a decent product but you're not going to gain that much and neither are you on prime. i'm a saying it's a bad product, no. i'm saying take the marketing hype cut that in half and you've got your answer. i also remember all the sick gains testers were supposedly making on the orginal 3ad which is the same ingredient as 11oxo. well that product doesn't do nearly what it claims.
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Well okay.

All opinions are respected....
 
USPLabs said:
Well okay.

All opinions are respected....
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nobody can fault you guys for what you're saying because you are in business to make money but i lose a little respect for a company when the marketing turns muscletech like in nature. granted this is a little different situation because there is actual research behind your products and most of them do work
 
jsp0785 said:
i don't care what anybody says you're not going to get the same results from a form of tribulus or any herb that you will get from steroids. when mass fx came out that was hyped up as being the next amazing thing that gives u steroid gains and was logged as a 10lb gain and crap in a month. it's a decent product but you're not going to gain that much and neither are you on prime. i'm a saying it's a bad product, no. i'm saying take the marketing hype cut that in half and you've got your answer. i also remember all the sick gains testers were supposedly making on the orginal 3ad which is the same ingredient as 11oxo. well that product doesn't do nearly what it claims.
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Those points are fine, but think of it in this manner: The comparison is aggregately made, not acutely made - that is, compare a Havoc Cycle after P.C.T., with PRIME for 60 days. Make the comparison in terms of the LBM attained after 60 days, the side-effects noticed after 60 days, and the amount of money spent after 60 days. Quite simply, when viewed in this fashion, the comparison is not as striking as you make it seem to be.

Unfortunately, non-response is bound to occur, and I readily concede that point to you; therefore, it is a true thing to say on average more individuals will respond to Havoc than PRIME. However, when one views the user data - which, to keep things in perspective, have all been unsponsored - the responders are achieving very encouraging gains. Hopefully, one can see past their preconceptions and acknowledge what has been independently written and compiled. I have seen several increases of 20-50lbs on key exercises, with adjacent weight gain.

Poopypants is a prime example, and this is solidified in his signature! He gained 13lbs on Epistane, and 11lbs on PRIME; so, I ask you, why is this comparison ridiculous as you are implying? It would seem to me, logically, the comparison is valid in his specific respect. Now, Poopy looked harder, more dense, and more vascular on Epi, nobody is debating that; however, he most likely experienced more side-effects, incurred more damage (though minor) on his body, and spent more money. Herein, we see the aggregate comparison made after 60 days.
 
Mulletsoldier said:
Those points are fine, but think of it in this manner: The comparison is aggregately made, not acutely made - that is, compare a Havoc Cycle after P.C.T., with PRIME for 60 days. Make the comparison in terms of the LBM attained after 60 days, the side-effects noticed after 60 days, and the amount of money spent after 60 days. Quite simply, when viewed in this fashion, the comparison is not as striking as you make it seem to be.

Unfortunately, non-response is bound to occur, and I readily concede that point to you; therefore, it is a true thing to say on average more individuals will respond to Havoc than PRIME. However, when one views the user data - which, to keep things in perspective, have all been unsponsored - the responders are achieving very encouraging gains. Hopefully, one can see past their preconceptions and acknowledge what has been independently written and compiled. I have seen several increases of 20-50lbs on key exercises, with adjacent weight gain.

Poopypants is a prime example, and this is solidified in his signature! He gained 13lbs on Epistane, and 11lbs on PRIME; so, I ask you, why is this comparison ridiculous as you are implying? It would seem to me, logically, the comparison is valid in his specific respect. Now, Poopy looked harder, more dense, and more vascular on Epi, nobody is debating that; however, he most likely experienced more side-effects, incurred more damage (though minor) on his body, and spent more money. Herein, we see the aggregate comparison made after 60 days.
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Why is it people measure results of a particular supp/ph by how many pounds they put on. 13lbs on epi, 11lbs on Prime. Was this 13 or 11lbs or pure muscle, was there fat in there? I sore Poopy mentioned gaining an inch on his arms from 30 days on prime (possibly longer time frame then that) which we both know is BS. I know he is a very respectable member of this forum but lets face it, you don't gain an inch on your arm in 30 days regardless of what you're on.
 
Australian made said:
Why is it people measure results of a particular supp/ph by how many pounds they put on. 13lbs on epi, 11lbs on Prime. Was this 13 or 11lbs or pure muscle, was there fat in there? I sore Poopy mentioned gaining an inch on his arms from 30 days on prime (possibly longer time frame then that) which we both know is BS. I know he is a very respectable member of this forum but lets face it, you don't gain an inch on your arm in 30 days regardless of what you're on.
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BS??? Aaaalright.

Next time Ill pay YOU to come to my house and measure for me cause Im obviously doing something wrong.

LOOK AT THE EFFING PICTURES D!CK!

This wasnt 30 days it was approx 40 (another week and a half) and I took accurate tape measurements before and after.

Seriosly though in my front flex pose you can SEE my arms are larger, exact measurements are 7/8" on the right and 1 1/8" on the left. Im not injecting synthol here thats MUSCLE, look at these pics and tell me Im lying.

Invalid Link Removed

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Weight:183lbs_______194lbs _______________+11lbs
Arm R:16 1/8"_______17"__________________+7/8"
Arm L:15.5"_________16 5/8" ______________+1 1/8"
Chest:46" __________46"____________________Zero
oblique/under:34.5" _35"/34" _____________+.5"/-.5"
Shoulders:52" _______52.5" _______________+.5"
Thighs:20 3/4" ______21 1/4"/21 1/2"(R/L) __+.5"/+.3/4"
Calves:16"__________16.5"________________+.5"
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so if I made an 11lb gain then where did it all go??? my ASS??? the measurements, pics and I dont lie.



I also want to say I dont appreciate being made a pawn in this argument from EITHER side. I made this log for my own benefit to track progression and allow others to see what a new supp can do.

I also STILL am going back and taking Epistane WHICH is not nearly as bad or "damaging" as mullet is making it out to be. For heavens sake check THAT log and youll see it reduced my GYNO greatly AND I still gained 5lbs on a proper PCT.....

Things are being taken out of context on BOTH sides here and need to be set straight.

NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE is going to make gains for JACK SQUAT without hard work a strong diet and THEN their supplementation to augment that. Taking accompanying supplements to create a synergistic effect or taking supports so your body is performing at optimum levels ALSO plays a key role in making large gains with anything. With that being said I also took P-slin with my Prime SO that should def be an accounted variable and in all honesty should make the results all the more believable. As well as the fact I took LARGE doses of cissus and poseidon on my Epistane cycle in order to keep my tendons strong joints lubed and cellular hydration at an optimum level. All these are variables that should be accounted for and why I keep such detailed logs..... Im not just shitting these long winded posts out each night for nothing, the proof is in the pudding folks.
 
Australian made said:
I know he is a very respectable member of this forum but lets face it, you don't gain an inch on your arm in 30 days regardless of what you're on.
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lets face it, YOU don't gain an inch on your arm in 30 days.

Dont hate.

Ive had 17.5 inch arms in the past. This is ALSO documented on the boards and should be no surprise to those who have followed more then one of my logs.

Id appreciate if youd not call me a liar especially in light of all the proof I provide.

I have no problem with you Aussie BUT it pisses me off to no end to be called a liar.
 
Don't get your knickers in a not mate, im sure im not the only one that thinks an inch on the arms in 40 days is bogus. But fair play, you posted pics and their is an obvious difference. Funny how my arms are a lot bigger then yours but there only just over 17 inches.

tell me something, when you started taking Prime did you change your diet in any way (inc cals etc) from the weeks leading up to your Prime run.......what im getting at is guys will have an ok diet, eat 2500-3000 cals a day then all of a sudden start eating 4k a day plus XYZ supp and go wow i put on 5 pounds not realising that the increased cals no doubt caused the weight gain rather then the supp. Does that make sense. Thats the problem i have with a lot of peoples logs...thats not directed at you, im saying in general.
 
To the op, i've been doing PRIME for 2.5 weeks now and I can honestly say that compared to when I ran M1t or PP, PRIME has been the cleanest and most impressive compared to those(of course i gained more strength, quicker on orals, but more water and bloat too)...now, i've run igf2/yg/blueup for 12 weeks and put on considerable weight, and stayed really lean according to my measured LBM...

So, in closing, I can say this: compare running a steroid for 4 weeks, gaining 12-15lbs, gaining 20-30lbs on your lifts, then during PCT, if it isnt perfect, losing 60% of what you gain

VS...

Running something like DTH/PRIME for 8-10 weeks, gaining 10-12lbs, gaining 15-25lbs on all lifts, and keeping 99% of it because it's non-hormonal and no need for PCT, so most of the gains are SOLID, this considering glycogen and water.
(I mean these gains coming after you've topped out on gains and been stuck for a couple of weeks, i mean that for both orals and non hormonal)


The best thing of all, no acne, no back pumps, no liver issues, no chance for ventricle atrophy/hypertrophy, testicular atrophy, no high cholesterol levels...no balding and you can nearly run it endlessly....Now you tell me?
 
Australian made said:
tell me something, when you started taking Prime did you change your diet in any way (inc cals etc) from the weeks leading up to your Prime run.......what im getting at is guys will have an ok diet, eat 2500-3000 cals a day then all of a sudden start eating 4k a day plus XYZ supp and go wow i put on 5 pounds not realising that the increased cals no doubt caused the weight gain rather then the supp. Does that make sense. Thats the problem i have with a lot of peoples logs...thats not directed at you, im saying in general.
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The thing is that since I've been dosing 8 a day, i've become extremely hungry during the day...what I usually take to work in my cooler has not held me at all, or nearly...Im now eating 1500 more calories a day than what I was consuming, so now Im right at 4500 cals a day, but before I bumped PRIME to 8 a day, my appetite or hunger did not change much if any ....
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Australian made said:
Why is it people measure results of a particular supp/ph by how many pounds they put on. 13lbs on epi, 11lbs on Prime. Was this 13 or 11lbs or pure muscle, was there fat in there? I sore Poopy mentioned gaining an inch on his arms from 30 days on prime (possibly longer time frame then that) which we both know is BS. I know he is a very respectable member of this forum but lets face it, you don't gain an inch on your arm in 30 days regardless of what you're on.
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LatSpread said:
Theres certainly no way Prime can compete with Havoc.
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There is very obviously something being lost here in translation; either that, or neither of you cared to read my statements, or it was simply lost in the fray.

Australian Made:

You seemed to make your commentary, irrespective of the following statement:

Therein, several things are assumed and/or overlooked. In shorter oral cycles, very little of the weight gain is striated muscle tissue; while it can be considered LBM in most clinical studies, aldosterone-induced water gain, aromatization, and glycogen storage account for most of the initial weight gain on any AAS Cycle. The development of striated muscle requires both differentiation and proliferation, and this does not occur immediately.

So, as we see, this situation is not as different as you make it seem to be. While individuals often report a leaner, vascular 'look' on steroids, this does not necessarily equate to maintainable muscle. It simply means that muscle hardness has increased due to androgens, and that immensely increased glycogen storage may be manifesting a slight diuretic effect. The fact is, you are incorrect to assume all the gains from steroids are muscle, and none from PRIME are.
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I have bolded the most pertinent comments. Not to be rude and, just to keep the lines of communication worthwhile and productive, I would appreciate if you would read and digest my commentary in full before responding!

LatSpread:

It would seem you responded, without reading this portion:

Those points are fine, but think of it in this manner: The comparison is aggregately made, not acutely made - that is, compare a Havoc Cycle after P.C.T., with PRIME for 60 days. Make the comparison in terms of the LBM attained after 60 days, the side-effects noticed after 60 days, and the amount of money spent after 60 days. Quite simply, when viewed in this fashion, the comparison is not as striking as you make it seem to be.
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e.g.) You often see individuals mentioning, "I gained 10 and kept 7 from my cycle". Now, this is after P.C.T., that there is a total net gain of 7lbs; if an individual can take PRIME for 30-40 days, and gain that amount of mass without significant adipose storage, how is the comparison far-fetched? What is interesting is as follows: each individual who has commented about the ridiculousness of this comparison has not provided any objective piece of data to back their point; on the other hand, I could provide several logs where users met the label claims.
 
hardknock said:
To the op, i've been doing PRIME for 2.5 weeks now and I can honestly say that compared to when I ran M1t or PP, PRIME has been the cleanest and most impressive compared to those(of course i gained more strength, quicker on orals, but more water and bloat too)...now, i've run igf2/yg/blueup for 12 weeks and put on considerable weight, and stayed really lean according to my measured LBM...

So, in closing, I can say this: compare running a steroid for 4 weeks, gaining 12-15lbs, gaining 20-30lbs on your lifts, then during PCT, if it isnt perfect, losing 60% of what you gain

VS...

Running something like DTH/PRIME for 8-10 weeks, gaining 10-12lbs, gaining 15-25lbs on all lifts, and keeping 99% of it because it's non-hormonal and no need for PCT, so most of the gains are SOLID, this considering glycogen and water.
(I mean these gains coming after you've topped out on gains and been stuck for a couple of weeks, i mean that for both orals and non hormonal)


The best thing of all, no acne, no back pumps, no liver issues, no chance for ventricle atrophy, testicular atrophy, no high cholesterol levels...no balding and you can nearly run it endlessly....Now you tell me?
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Exactly! Why is the aggregate nature of the comparison so difficult to grasp for most?
 
Mulletsoldier said:
Those points are fine, but think of it in this manner: The comparison is aggregately made, not acutely made - that is, compare a Havoc Cycle after P.C.T., with PRIME for 60 days. Make the comparison in terms of the LBM attained after 60 days, the side-effects noticed after 60 days, and the amount of money spent after 60 days. Quite simply, when viewed in this fashion, the comparison is not as striking as you make it seem to be.

Unfortunately, non-response is bound to occur, and I readily concede that point to you; therefore, it is a true thing to say on average more individuals will respond to Havoc than PRIME. However, when one views the user data - which, to keep things in perspective, have all been unsponsored - the responders are achieving very encouraging gains. Hopefully, one can see past their preconceptions and acknowledge what has been independently written and compiled. I have seen several increases of 20-50lbs on key exercises, with adjacent weight gain.

Poopypants is a prime example, and this is solidified in his signature! He gained 13lbs on Epistane, and 11lbs on PRIME; so, I ask you, why is this comparison ridiculous as you are implying? It would seem to me, logically, the comparison is valid in his specific respect. Now, Poopy looked harder, more dense, and more vascular on Epi, nobody is debating that; however, he most likely experienced more side-effects, incurred more damage (though minor) on his body, and spent more money. Herein, we see the aggregate comparison made after 60 days.
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if somebody gains that much on roids and then loses however much during pct that will happen but with proper pct and diet you shouldn't lose all that much but most people dont' up their cal intake to compensate for the extra 10lbs they gained. i'm guessing the same thing is happening with prime? yea it doesn't f up your test levels but again most of the weight loss is becaues of poor diet and not the latter because epistane/havoc isn't hugely suppressive and with all the test boosters and anti e's out there it shouldn't take all that long to get back to normal.
 
i went to the mall today to get some beta alanine and noticed my gnc now has usp labs stuff. i was gonna pick up some prime but not for $70. i also walked out without bet alanine too because that was $30 god i hate GNC
 
Australian made said:
Don't get your knickers in a not mate, im sure im not the only one that thinks an inch on the arms in 40 days is bogus. But fair play, you posted pics and their is an obvious difference. Funny how my arms are a lot bigger then yours but there only just over 17 inches.

tell me something, when you started taking Prime did you change your diet in any way (inc cals etc) from the weeks leading up to your Prime run.......what im getting at is guys will have an ok diet, eat 2500-3000 cals a day then all of a sudden start eating 4k a day plus XYZ supp and go wow i put on 5 pounds not realising that the increased cals no doubt caused the weight gain rather then the supp. Does that make sense. Thats the problem i have with a lot of peoples logs...thats not directed at you, im saying in general.
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Dude.... I cant help you with the comparison that your making to your own arms. Maybe its perspective from your viewpoint may its proportions to the rest of your body, IDK, post up an arm shot and that may help.

Regardless this measurement is most definitely accurate, I actually had my mother down this weekend and she is a seamstress (likes to sew, makes clothes, knits, quilts ect) bottom line is shes fairly accurate at taking measurements and makes dresses for ladies on a regular. First thing she said when she saw me when we met at my aunts was wow your lookin huge, and then proceeded to bust out a tape measure and have me break out the guns. 17". I then re-measured last night to make sure and got the same measurement. There is no mistake in this, if it pleases you I will post a vid of me taking a measurement so you can seamlessly see me wrap the tape round my arm and not fib on it by pinching and taking a still or the like, whatever.

No I didnt increase the cals beyond my normal intake... actually I DID, I increased fats in my post workout shake by adding a tsp of veg oil. That was it. I was already taking Pslin 2x ed and AP 2x ed for over a month so had the diet ramped up to accommodate that, dropped the AP when it ran out a couple days into the run and left the cals the same regardless. also dropped Pslin dose half way through from 2-1 time a day to make my supply last a lil longer and in turn lowered the carbs on my morn meal.

Nothing extravagant changed there as there was a zero change in protein intake and the other changes would not make a huge difference the increase in fats was to help aid absorption of Prime dosing more then anything.
 
jsp0785 said:
if somebody gains that much on roids and then loses however much during pct that will happen but with proper pct and diet you shouldn't lose all that much but most people dont' up their cal intake to compensate for the extra 10lbs they gained. i'm guessing the same thing is happening with prime? yea it doesn't f up your test levels but again most of the weight loss is becaues of poor diet and not the latter because epistane/havoc isn't hugely suppressive and with all the test boosters and anti e's out there it shouldn't take all that long to get back to normal.
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Spence makes good commentary as towards your question, and his reply is as good as any. I hope you do not mind Spence.

No I didnt increase the cals beyond my normal intake... actually I DID, I increased fats in my post workout shake by adding a tsp of veg oil. That was it. I was already taking Pslin 2x ed and AP 2x ed for over a month so had the diet ramped up to accommodate that, dropped the AP when it ran out a couple days into the run and left the cals the same regardless. also dropped Pslin dose half way through from 2-1 time a day to make my supply last a lil longer and in turn lowered the carbs on my morn meal.
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From my perspective, though, you have to ask yourself why are the gains lost? Is it merely because of not increasing calories, or is it because the body is in a state of hormonal imbalance and maintaing mass during this period is difficult? Most definitely, it is the latter; therefore, losing such a percentage of mass whilst on PRIME is unlikely though, there are obvious situations where it may happen.
 
Royd the noyd, before you neg me AGAIN, please make a sensible reason to why you think that my statement is wrong...

What is so hard to understand?

The Op asked which was better? Did he not? When you compare the results both positive and negative, from TOP TO BOTTOM and not just "dude I got jacked in one month", then it's clearly easy to see that the choice would have to be an effective non hormonal supp rather than a Oral designer steroid ...

How can you neg me for that stretch when Im speaking from personal experience? have you done PRIME, DTH, igf2, for 10-12 weeks?

If he had clearly asked, "what will get you stronger in 30 days no matter the side effects" then that's clearly a designer cycle; however, that was not the question at hand, specifically...

I consider your reasoning for the neg to show a gross amount of idiocy on your part, thanks.
 
i have been seeing alot about prime and was wondering if being safer and able to run a longer cycle if that might not be the way to go. would the results with prime even be close to havoc?
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I'll even quote it for you bud ... save you the time
 
Mullet, my response was to the OP who seemed to think they were similar options. I didnt read or respond to any of your posts

All I'm saying is one is a methylated steroid while the other an herbal test booster/adaptogen/whatever else, they shouldnt be compared.
 
I can attest to strength gains on Prime. Epistane PCT/Prime day 10 I was able to bench 275 for my 3 rep max. I tried 295 and was unsuccessful. Day 24 of PCT with Prime added (today) I was able able to bench 305lbs for 2 reps. I have also leaned out significantly while using Prime with my ECA+Yohimbime stack.

I can also attest to muscle hardness. Great PH/PS like pumps even though Prime is not a test booster. I also have no sides to speak of which is definately better than the back pumps I experienced on cycle.
 
well i mean poops reps for ibe, so that says a lot.

Unless IBE and USP are owned by the same Big boss, then his comments are abolutely valid.

But it doesnt mean everyones gonna gain 11 pounds on prime.

Basically the main culprit, is USP Labs marketing, and they have to deal with people arguing with them if they continue marketing like this.

JSP is also right Anabolic Xtreme also has over the top marketing.

almost every company has over-the-top marketing.

I really might have to log some prime, to get to the bottom of this, serisouly, its been buggin me. Poops log got me thinking. I was also "hatin" on USP before, but ive come to terms, im more neutral with them now than anything.
 
b unit said:
prime stacked with drive would be good to incorporate into a pct after running havoc IMHO
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very much agreed, Drivre alone in PCT (with a SERM) was one of the best PCT's Ive had to date and aided in a speedy recovery after a 6 week dbol and epi cycle and kept the in gym experience pleasant. Drive would help greatly in aiding test boosting and the other wonderful test mimicing properties icariin has and then stacked with primes non hormonal actions I could imagine that would be one stellar PCT, hopefully I can get the funds to put that to the test.
 
Silver3CSRT8 said:
I can attest to strength gains on Prime. Epistane PCT/Prime day 10 I was able to bench 275 for my 3 rep max. I tried 295 and was unsuccessful. Day 24 of PCT with Prime added (today) I was able able to bench 305lbs for 2 reps. I have also leaned out significantly while using Prime with my ECA+Yohimbime stack.

I can also attest to muscle hardness. Great PH/PS like pumps even though Prime is not a test booster. I also have no sides to speak of which is definately better than the back pumps I experienced on cycle.
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ur taking ECA and yohimbee in your pct? also try that again and post next week or so. there are days you can go in the gym and be stronger than others
 
thanks jeremy :thumbsup:

was hittin bi's twice a week by the end as well, once with back and once with legs spread as far apart as possible, Im sure this contributed alot to their growth.

I must say Im very proud of the split I run, it works great for hypertrophy on and off a cycle.
 
Jeez what a difference a good nights sleep has on my mood. I'll unsub before i annoy anyone else. Nice gains poopy regardless of what you were on. Well done.
 
USPLabs said:
Supplements do not make you fat unless you are injesting estrogen.
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I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that prime would make u fat that's just ridiculous. What i meant was all the logs i've seen are people bulking, they eat more workout harder and got bigger. from the pics i've seen posted everyone looks a little fatter that's all. So some of the weight gain seems like fat. I think prime works but not nearly as great as advertised but that has been said a million times already i'm just stating so because it should not be compared to a PH/DS.

Another thing i'd like to note is people run a cycle of something, do their PCT, keep there gains for a little bit then they get lazy and slowly loose some of there gains. They then see this product that says you can get steroid like results without taking steroids. They decide to try it, get there diet and training in check and bust there ass in the gym. Muscle memory comes in and people gain some weight, some muscle some fat. from my experience with prime. I took 3 weeks off from the gym, stopped overtraining and gained a few lbs but half of it is fat. With something like that I would gain about 10lbs in a month and be leaner. Prime hasn't done any of that. U guys have a 100% satisfaction guarantee and i bought it from your site so I'm not worried cause i will get my money back.
 
This is to Poopy, Just curious cause 11lbs in a lot and i can see a difference in your pictures but i remember you being bigger a couple years back when u ran a lot of orals. Were you in the gym consistently before running prime?
 
ok guys my question was would the results of running a good cycle of havoc still beat running a long cycle of prime. wasn't interested in price. just if i could get close results with the prime to be safer. i have no problem running the havoc as i have ran sd a few times with less than perfect pct. gonna put up a very good pct this time. after reading this i'm thinking
nolva, p.c. support and either drive/prime or dthc. so i guess i will go with the havoc as i'm sure the results will be better for the time and money invested. if i include prime in pct i'll have tried both anyway. ok now tell me which you would go with pct prime/drive or dthc???
 
Royd The Noyd said:
People crush PR's everyday in sponsored logs. If your not then its obviously a result of YOUR diet and training. Not the product unless your a non-responder, which is common. Duh...
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Well, I love this comment! Why? Because EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE PRIME LOGS HAVE BEEN UNSPONSORED.

Have a nice day. :)
 
Ares said:
It sounds like you and that Mullet character have your heads shoved up each others asses instead of your own.
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take a look at this guys vids....guy your technique needs some work. I advise you find somebody who knows what there doing and learn how to lift properly. Your going to hurt yourself if you don't learn. Sorry but you can't be taken seriously if you lift like that...
 
Well, as they say there is no such thing as 'Negative Publicity'

I am highly skeptical that Prime will live up to the hype, and I am sure if I post anything about it other than gaining x amount of lbs and stength, USP/Mulltet will reply with you are just a non-responder.

I've maintained a steady diet and been setting 'PR's with every workout with around a steady 5% each subsequent workout, as well as monitoring my Metabolic Index.

If Prime is what they say it is, I should be able to see the benegits of LBM gain and strength.

Have no gain is bashing Prime or stating that it works....in other words I will buy a bottle and put it to my own test...
 
DreamWeaver said:
take a look at this guys vids....guy your technique needs some work. I advise you find somebody who knows what there doing and learn how to lift properly. Your going to hurt yourself if you don't learn. Sorry but you can't be taken seriously if you lift like that...
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I apologize those weren't your videos...
 
Ares said:
Well, as they say there is no such thing as 'Negative Publicity'

I am highly skeptical that Prime will live up to the hype, and I am sure if I post anything about it other than gaining x amount of lbs and stength, USP/Mulltet will reply with you are just a non-responder.

I've maintained a steady diet and been setting 'PR's with every workout with around a steady 5% each subsequent workout, as well as monitoring my Metabolic Index.

If Prime is what they say it is, I should be able to see the benegits of LBM gain and strength.

Have no gain is bashing Prime or stating that it works....in other words I will buy a bottle and put it to my own test...
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good for you.. untill then your just blowing smoke out of your azzz.... I have seen what the product can do and it's impressive.
 
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