Possible jaundice help

[T-Bone]

bluedevil you still here? I'm going through the same thing man, hdrol cycle planned and used support supps.

What we have is called cholestasis (which I'm sure you know by now).

luckily my ALP started dropping (was on the rise for the first month and a half) and my bilirubin as well. normal range from my lab for bili was 2-22, last years bloods show my normal level to be around 6. My bilirubin peaked at 402 just a little while ago and has just begun to drop rapidly. I'm now sitting at around 142 (dropping at a rate of ~40 points every 3 days).

I've lost 26 pounds. Pale stools dark urine itch as HELL skin, yellow skin, the whole deal. It's been almost 2 months now, and only now am I able to wear clothes somewhat comfortably.

From my research I gathered that we are genetically prone to cholestasis of the bile ducts (blockage of bile flow due to inflammation) due to 17-a steroids. This isn't something that will happen to your average joe.

the only problem, however, is that my ALT and AST have both been floating at about 2x normal range for the past month and have not budged. I guess the drop in ALP and bilirubin shows healing, and my skin and eyes have been improving daily! Color is returning to my stool and my urine is starting to lighten up.

I was also told I may very well require a transplant, I was also told I was doing worse than some of the cancer patients (wtf doctor, Y U say that!)

also, showering is uncomfortable as hell and my skin feels dry and tight after (although this sensation is leaving now)


Please update this thread so I can know what is going on bro, I think its useful to both of us to have someone else going through the same thing. How's your healing coming along? could you post up your bloods and the trend they follow? I'm very interested!

here is my thread on PH forum:

prohormoneforum.com/prohormone-forum/55071-day-3-pct-yellow-eyes.html



edit: Forgot to mention I'm on UDCA (1000mg daily) and Colestipol for itching (3g)

There is no way your bilirubin is 142 unless your looking at some kind of different scale or something.

Bilirubin levels in adultsTotal bilirubin
0.3-1.0 mg/dL or 5.0-17.0 mmol/L
Direct bilirubin
0.0-0.2 mg/dL or 0.0-3.4 mmol/L


I have recent blookwork and the reference range for Total Bilirubin is 0.1-1.4


Bilirubin

 

[RB2]

There is no way your bilirubin is 142 unless your looking at some kind of different scale or something.

Bilirubin levels in adultsTotal bilirubin

Direct bilirubin
0.0-0.2 mg/dL or 0.0-3.4 mmol/L


I have recent blookwork and the reference range for Total Bilirubin is 0.1-1.4

normal range at my lab: 2-22 umol/L

My peak was 402 umol/L


however I'm now at 142 umol/L (2-22)

and direct bilirubin at 85 umol/L (0-5)

hope that makes more sense. Do you know what the conversions would happen to be?

edit: used this sydpath.stvincents.com.au/other/Conversions/ConversionBilirubinSI.htm

so my peak was 23.5 mg/dl

and I'm now at 8.3

(total)

 

[T-Bone]

normal range at my lab: 2-22 umol/L

My peak was 402 umol/L


however I'm now at 142 umol/L (2-22)

and direct bilirubin at 85 umol/L (0-5)

hope that makes more sense. Do you know what the conversions would happen to be?

edit: used this sydpath.stvincents.com.au/other/Conversions/ConversionBilirubinSI.htm

so my peak was 23.5 mg/dl

and I'm now at 8.3

(total)

Yeah that makes more sense. Sorry I'm bad at math so I don't know the conversions. That sounds correct though. Just read through your thread at PHF. Sounds like you had a terrible experience with the doctors. I guess medical care is better here in the states. Did they ever tape gloves to your hands so you wouldn't itch in the hospital?. They did that to me. At one point I was pissed they wouldn't give me anything for the itching I threatened to jump out the window. Next thing I knew I was cuffed to the bed. Really I just wanted relief from the itching and was exhausted mentally and physically. Well anyway I'm glad your feeling better. Hope the OP in this thread is getting better too.

 

[AaronJP1]

1 thing BlueDevil came on here and posted he wasn't doing so well after the doc said he will be ok....

 

[RB2]

T-bone, i was never actually admitted to the hospital as they said they could not do anything for me there! But yes, that itch is a bitch, and that is the biggest understatement of the year. The only thing I'm worried about is the ALT and AST levels not budging! at one point in the past month my alt was down to 136 or so and now its back up to 180!! what the hell.

by the way, my appetite has been great the whole time, but I still lost a total of 26 pounds (or so). sucks...

1 thing BlueDevil came on here and posted he wasn't doing so well after the doc said he will be ok....

link to post? Last I saw, he was healing up! I wish he would update this thread. I can't even PM him due to low post count...

 

[RB2]

bump. OP where are you?

 

[T-Bone]

Blue D, I hope you are ok!. Post something so we know you are not dead!

 

[grngoloco]

It's my feeling he's totally done with steroids and anything to do with them including us,,, I can't blame him... if I were into helicopters and crashed mine, almost died etc etc etc I might not really enjoy the copter forum anymore,, also, I don't think he's really wanting to be the official spokesperson for superdrol gone wrong

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Jaundice is absolutely a sign of liver damage in this case. In short, there are only a few reasons bilirubin will accumulate to the point where you'll become jaundiced.

1. red blood cells are bursting ( probably not the case unless you have a family history of that sort of thing or have started some new meds )
2. damage to the liver (likely given the 17aa methyl steroid just recently introduced)
3. Enzymatic or transport deficiencies in the liver (again, unlikely)
4. damage to or obstruction of the biliary tree coming out of the liver (in absence of right upper quadrant pain, probably not that either)

Most likely, your liver has taken some big hits from the superdrol and its not functioning well enough to process all of the bilirubin in your body, therefore your becoming jaundiced.

Please don't listen to the people on the forums who tell you its not that bad. it doesn't have to be "that bad". Stop the superdrol, get your liver function tested and follow up with it until it resolves.

EDIT: Looks like I got to this late o_0 Hope all is well.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

You will never see clinical jaundice in a photo you self take. Jaundice is a later sign of hepatic damage so I would be very concerned. No way superdrol did that to you. You liver was previously damaged and you hurt it more or you have a chronic issue you are unaware of.

No, he really didn't have a chronic issue; if he was previous asymptomatic it really wasn't an issue and he could have gone his whole life without hepatitis. He may have a genetic predisposition to jaundice or liver damage, but the reality is that the insult of the 17-aa-methylated steroid is the likely culprit for the hepatitis. This is really no different from say, diabetes. Type II diabetes has some significant genetic predisposition associated with it -- it looks like the number of islet beta cells in the pancreas may just be lower at baseline than the rest of the population. And, while its true they have a disposition toward diabetes, its still the lifestyle choices that throw them over the edge and into diabetes.

This is a drug-induced hepatitis from superdrol. This doesn't mean it will happen to everyone, but clearly some people are experiencing some pretty significant hepatitis from it.

 

[grngoloco]

No, he really didn't have a chronic issue; if he was previous asymptomatic it really wasn't an issue and he could have gone his whole life without hepatitis. He may have a genetic predisposition to jaundice or liver damage, but the reality is that the insult of the 17-aa-methylated steroid is the likely culprit for the hepatitis. This is really no different from say, diabetes. Type II diabetes has some significant genetic predisposition associated with it -- it looks like the number of islet beta cells in the pancreas may just be lower at baseline than the rest of the population. And, while its true they have a disposition toward diabetes, its still the lifestyle choices that throw them over the edge and into diabetes.

This is a drug-induced hepatitis from superdrol. This doesn't mean it will happen to everyone, but clearly some people are experiencing some pretty significant hepatitis from it.

I'm the biggest proponent of regular labs you'll ever know,, recently I was on a sdrol cycle,, my labs midway through showed VERY HIGH Alt and Ast levels,, turned out to be a virus,, but had I not done the midcycle labs and continued the sdrol, I would have ended up in a very bad situation..
I can't help but believe if bluedevil had done midcycle labs this could have been averted or at the very least minimized
"I YOU CAN'T AFORD LABS, YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO DO STEROIDS!!!"

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I'm the biggest proponent of regular labs you'll ever know,, recently I was on a sdrol cycle,, my labs midway through showed VERY HIGH Alt and Ast levels,, turned out to be a virus,, but had I not done the midcycle labs and continued the sdrol, I would have ended up in a very bad situation..
I can't help but believe if bluedevil had done midcycle labs this could have been averted or at the very least minimized
"I YOU CAN'T AFORD LABS, YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO DO STEROIDS!!!"

Labs are great

Just out of curiosity, how did they determine you had a viral hepatitis? I'm curious how the physician came to that determination and didn't attribute it to SuperDrol. I ask because many of them really aren't familiar with these drugs, and have no idea what they're capable of. So, unless they drew some blood and looked for Hep antigens and antibodies and got a positive result, or something like that, I'd suggest the AST/ALT rises were from the SuperDrol. Most of the other viruses that can cause hepatitis aren't routinely tested for.

A doc who isn't familiar with the effects of a 17aa methyl steroid on your liver might just ask if you drink, and if not, attribute the AST/ALT levels to a viral hepatitis that just needed to be followed clinically since you were obviously asymptomatic.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Labs are great

Just out of curiosity, how did they determine you had a viral hepatitis? I'm curious how the physician came to that determination and didn't attribute it to SuperDrol. I ask because many of them really aren't familiar with these drugs, and have no idea what they're capable of. So, unless they drew some blood and looked for Hep antigens and antibodies and got a positive result, or something like that, I'd suggest the AST/ALT rises were from the SuperDrol. Most of the other viruses that can cause hepatitis aren't routinely tested for.

A doc who isn't familiar with the effects of a 17aa methyl steroid on your liver might just ask if you drink, and if not, attribute the AST/ALT levels to a viral hepatitis that just needed to be followed clinically since you were obviously asymptomatic.

for real, they were debating whether the enlargement of my heart was viral or from the AAS or stims or just random. no way for them to be certain from what I know. But maybe its different for the liver and you can pinpoint the cause? not sure......They told me we would never know the reason, but instead to just concentrate on making it better with treatment.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

for real, they were debating whether the enlargement of my heart was viral or from the AAS or stims or just random. no way for them to be certain from what I know. But maybe its different for the liver and you can pinpoint the cause? not sure......They told me we would never know the reason, but instead to just concentrate on making it better with treatment.

What kind of enlargment? Hypertrophic or dilated? If dilated, viral origin seems likely in absence of other chronic conditions like COPD, renal failure, etc.

If hypertrophic, it can be any number of things depending on age and family history, but it really comes down to two type: 1. acquired (hypertension or some form of outflow obstruction like stenosis of the aortic valve would be reasons) or 2. familial which I won't bother to get into.

My guess is your heart is hypertrophied, and if you have a history of high blood pressure then its the combination of all things in life that could have given you high blood pressure, from AAS, to genetics, to stress, diet, etc.

 

[WARBIRDWS6]

Its an enlargement of the entire heart, not just left or anything like that....was REALLY huge according to what they tell me they saw on the echo. that was 7 years ago and its back down to semi-normal, although still enlarged of course. I don't believe my BP was a problem, nor was anything else...they said I was in perfect health from what they could see until they did the echo....they they were like OH SHYT. I believe it to be a combination of things over years, taking clen or ECA through my 20's especially, several years of AAS/GH etc in the early 30's...I've always lifted and taken supps ever since the age of 15....the genetic factor....God only knows....but I really don't care, all that matters is having it diagnosed and doing whatever I can to manage it. Same as these posters with liver problems, I think much of it is genetic predisposition to these problems.

 

[grngoloco]

Labs are great

Just out of curiosity, how did they determine you had a viral hepatitis? I'm curious how the physician came to that determination and didn't attribute it to SuperDrol. I ask because many of them really aren't familiar with these drugs, and have no idea what they're capable of. So, unless they drew some blood and looked for Hep antigens and antibodies and got a positive result, or something like that, I'd suggest the AST/ALT rises were from the SuperDrol. Most of the other viruses that can cause hepatitis aren't routinely tested for.

A doc who isn't familiar with the effects of a 17aa methyl steroid on your liver might just ask if you drink, and if not, attribute the AST/ALT levels to a viral hepatitis that just needed to be followed clinically since you were obviously asymptomatic.

I had an intestinal viral infection two weeks earlier and the treated it thinking it was bacterial, instead of getting better it shifted to my liver, the did more tests,, they did a ton of labs,, they determined it was the virus due to the other numbers being what they were and the antibodies in my blood among other things,, all I really know is I'm better now and just started a new hdrol/furaza cycle

 

[grngoloco]

I had an intestinal viral infection two weeks earlier and the treated it thinking it was bacterial, instead of getting better it shifted to my liver, the did more tests,, they did a ton of labs,, they determined it was the virus due to the other numbers being what they were and the antibodies in my blood among other things,, all I really know is I'm better now and just started a new hdrol/furaza cycle

I definitely had a virus,, but the superdrol was certainly aggravating the issue as well...

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I had an intestinal viral infection two weeks earlier and the treated it thinking it was bacterial, instead of getting better it shifted to my liver, the did more tests,, they did a ton of labs,, they determined it was the virus due to the other numbers being what they were and the antibodies in my blood among other things,, all I really know is I'm better now and just started a new hdrol/furaza cycle

I definitely had a virus,, but the superdrol was certainly aggravating the issue as well...

Ah, gotcha. Good luck with the new cycle.

 

[rjp3900]

Thought this thread could use a bump. Good information, and ignorance is our worst enemy.

I'm starting a SD cycle shortly, along with Stano 200. Starting with 10mg SD, ramping to 20. Will likely stay at 20, while taking 800mg Stano daily.

As far as support supps go, I've been taking sam-E for months and will continue through the cycle. I have also been taking hawthorne berry extract, and will continue that by using Cycle Assist though the cycle and PCT. I'm also throwing in Livercare (Liv52). For lipid support, I have guggulsterones and fish oil/krill oil. Prolactin prevention - IGF-2 (l-dopa).

I've seen some studies on coffee recently that show it reverses cirrhosis of the liver at 5+ cups/day - so I'll keep that up as well. Other than that, I've got my fingers crossed for some massive gains! This is my 5th cycle, having previously done Epi twice, Dieselbolan v2 twice (once stacked with Trenazone). I had some pretty dark piss at the end of the last cycle, but I recovered fine, and all my bloods were normal after two weeks on PCT - so my liver couldn't have been all that outta whack.

Edit: I've just ordered Aegis (TUDCA) as well, to cover any bile duct cirrhosis related issues as well as any other protective properties it may have.

 

[bluedevil00]

Hey guys apologize again for lack of posting just haven't been feeling like being on here. I finally feel normal again, my color is back as well as my appetite. I'm finally thinking of hitting the weights and trying to make up some lost ground. Sorry if I missed questions from anyone in my absence but feel free to ask away.

 

[AaronJP1]

Hey guys apologize again for lack of posting just haven't been feeling like being on here. I finally feel normal again, my color is back as well as my appetite. I'm finally thinking of hitting the weights and trying to make up some lost ground. Sorry if I missed questions from anyone in my absence but feel free to ask away.

Glad your back!
How did u get everything fixed?

 

[LiveToLift]

Maybe I read this wrong but this issue was because you had pre-existing problems with your liver correct? I remember following your initial review of anabeta and then your log of superdrol and I quit following when I heard I'm going to run out of cycle assist should I keep going? People started to instruct you to take 1 everyday until you could afford to get more. I was like okay...... lol Never a good idea to start a cycle without ALL products needed on hand. I do not think this would happen to someone that is in good starting health and takes the proper pre-load/supports though so I'd bet you had pre-existing issues. Not to take away at all how strong these compounds are and toxic they can be, but from all the reports I'm seeing people have that have had liver issue's there was usually determined to be a pre-existing issue that was inflamed due to the aas use.

 

[bluedevil00]

Maybe I read this wrong but this issue was because you had pre-existing problems with your liver correct? I remember following your initial review of anabeta and then your log of superdrol and I quit following when I heard I'm going to run out of cycle assist should I keep going? People started to instruct you to take 1 everyday until you could afford to get more. I was like okay...... lol Never a good idea to start a cycle without ALL products needed on hand. I do not think this would happen to someone that is in good starting health and takes the proper pre-load/supports though so I'd bet you had pre-existing issues. Not to take away at all how strong these compounds are and toxic they can be, but from all the reports I'm seeing people have that have had liver issue's there was usually determined to be a pre-existing issue that was inflamed due to the aas use.

No I didn't have any pre-existing issues. I was only asking if it was ok to half the dose until I got more which I did a couple days later or if there was a good alternative that was less expensive. All in all i ran the cycle assist for 8weeks along the other supports

 

[bluedevil00]

Glad your back!
How did u get everything fixed?

Time, patience, fluids, blood tests, and a few meds once my levels came down

 

[LiveToLift]

What was your dosing of the Sdrol? 20/30/30/30? I thought I remember it being quite high..

 

[bluedevil00]

What was your dosing of the Sdrol? 20/30/30/30? I thought I remember it being quite high..

10/20/20/30

 

[T-Bone]

What was your dosing of the Sdrol? 20/30/30/30? I thought I remember it being quite high..

What are you trying to justify?.

 

[LiveToLift]

What are you trying to justify?.

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was justifying anything there t-bone, I'm trying to get information about what happened without scanning through 9 pages of chit chat.... Let's not jump to conclusions

 

[bluedevil00]

Here a quick example of how much mass I lost, keep in mind I've put on about 10lbs since I was really sick

 

[LiveToLift]

that was so hard not to replace t-bone with t-bag.... LMAO!

 

[LiveToLift]

I guess I just remember reading something about the sdrol flaring up a pre-existing hepatitis issue. I tried to scan back through but had no luck. Hope everything works out for you bro! This is a good example on why its always best to start with a "less harsh" ph to see how one's body is going to react. Are you able to make it to the gym yet?

 

[AaronJP1]

U look leaner.

 

[LiveToLift]

U look leaner.

That was what I was thinking but didn't want to be "that" guy... Just to be positive if you were to throw some weight on the build you have now it would look a lot better then before.. A nice natty lean bulk would do good things!

 

[mattrag]

Here a quick example of how much mass I lost, keep in mind I've put on about 10lbs since I was really sick

Leaned up nicely bro. Just keep natty for now, until you can run the good stuff. if you ever I'd venture to that area that is.

 

[AaronJP1]

Leaned up nicely bro. Just keep natty for now, until you can run the good stuff. if you ever I'd venture to that area that is.

That was what I was thinking but didn't want to be "that" guy... Just to be positive if you were to throw some weight on the build you have now it would look a lot better then before.. A nice natty lean bulk would do good things!

^^ 2 good guys giving great advice.

 

[life2]

I can't believe this thread still open. Can you guys please tell me how long it took for you to recover from jaundice.