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- Thread starter BamBam0319
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Gutterpump
Banned
Nolva is best used while on, it's far better at preventing gyno than it is in PCT. Clomid is superior for kickstarting the HTPA in PCT.
double s
Board Sponsor
Thank you. I guess if you are prone to gyno then yes. Seems people I know tend to use one or the other...
Certainly appreciate the insight tho
MrKleen73
Legend
Drop the winny to 50mg. That is plenty, no need to go over that. Anavar or TBol are great for the dry hard gains.
Yeah if you can run your gear without any estrogen management without sides then that is the best way to go. However a lot of people need some, most of the time lowering estrogen can slow down the gains a bit, so a low dose of nolva ends up yielding better results than running an AI since nolva blocks the estrogen from binding to the AR in breast tissue but does not actually lower estrogen.
Toren
Well-known member
There are two commas in there so I was able to pause and ctach my breath before I finished. :}
BamBam0319
Well-known member
I actually didn't even end up using nolva; I used raloxifene instead to get rid of the gyno that always pops up with dbol. And the clomid is scratched since there is no PCT in the foreseeable future.
YoungBodyBuil
Banned
thats what i like to see man! who needs balls anyways! LOL, unless youre using some hcg
WAF
Active member
So your really going to blast and cruise?
YoungBodyBuil
Banned
Only way to make REAL sustainable gains IMO. I'm 24 and wanting to just B and C now. People can call it stupid but i can afford tip top doctors fertility clinics i get blood work EVERY cycle and i cycle a ton, so im cool with it, it's a worthwhile expense rather than yoying my sh1t and not even being able to predict my personality.
BamBam0319
Well-known member
MrKleen73
Legend
Not to be a dick but that is not a great philosophy. I mean if you are planning on becoming a professional physique competitor of some sort then I can see why you would think that way. Most importantly, natty gains are the most sustainable and are quite definitely real. Most people can make a lot more natty gains than they think but are not training or eating optimally. Then add gear on as a patch to make up for those inadequacies. Coming off to low test levels slows down progress a bit. You lose some of the transient weight from things like water, increased glycogen retention and what not. However most of the legitimate gains are kept with a proper PCT. Blasting and Cruising at a young age can be justified if honestly trying to go pro, but if you are just planning on doing a competition or two, or even less important just have a physique goal then reasonable cycles with reasonable length and good PCT are quite sustainable. After all, back in the day they built some great physiques off of Deca, Test, Dbol and no PCT at all. It all comes down to the priority level in the end. However saying real attainable gains can only come from blasting and cruising is a false statement.
You are in a great position if you have the cash to get all of the treatment, testing and everything for every cycle. That is about the only reasonable way to do it. Most can not afford that but opt to go the blast and cruise route anyway. That IMO, is not a healthy option.
Okay so you will have been on for about 9 months at that point? I get doing it for a specific contest, but unless you plan to go pro I would not continue blasting and cruising indefinitely. Nobody ever knows what cycle might be the one to crush their HPTA and then some lucky individuals have basically bulletproof HPTA's. Mine didn't take much at all to be suppressed to the point of needing TRT. Of course I was about 40 when I got on it.
YoungBodyBuil
Banned
Sorry if that comment came off as ignorant, it was kind of bullheaded. Disregard the sustainable gains aspect, i'd say my main reasoning for B and C would be avoiding rollercoasting my hormones and being a different person everyday (personality wise) that's just not appealing to me. You were in no way dickish as my comment was worded ignorantly and that's not how I want to be perceived. We all have our reasonings for doing what we do, and you're just trying to put good advice out there, not a dick at all if anything its commendable.
Gutterpump
Banned
FWIW - I'm on TRT now for about 9 years, started blasting/cruising a few years back and I don't compete. I just really really really really enjoy it.
MrKleen73
Legend
YoungBodyBuil Excellent, I didn't want to come off preachy or anything. Hard to tell sometimes how you will be received when there is no tone of voice to help decipher intent with written communications.
However being on TRT is pretty awesome because you really don't lose much other than the transient weight when coming off since there is no need to recover your HPTA and you can go right back to a normal test level.
Gutterpump - Do you go back to a legitimate TRT dose after your cycles, or are you running your Test over 200? I wouldn't call it blasting and cruising if on regular TRT dose when not cycling. Most who actually blast and cruise run about 250-400mg of Test as a cruise dose.
However being on TRT is pretty awesome because you really don't lose much other than the transient weight when coming off since there is no need to recover your HPTA and you can go right back to a normal test level.
Gutterpump
Banned
I stick to a TRT dose of test when off, but also most of the time when on. It's actually been a very very long while since I've blasted with high test levels. I think that's what I may do next, with NPP & mast.
MrKleen73
Legend
Interesting, what type of cycles have you been running then? Just out of curiosity.
Gutterpump
Banned
The last one was tren ace + epistane for 2 months. Before that was dien ace for 3-4 months with a triumphalis kickstart. Prior to that one was trest ace alone. All of those were with TRT doses of test.
Before dien/trest came around, I was doing long cycles of EQ + mast, with tbol kickstarts. By long, I mean around 7 months. Wasn't running it very high though.
MrKleen73
Legend
So I assume you are on board with the lower test doses with 19-Nor's it was asked earlier why people ran it this way and I mentioned that it seemed to lessen the sides when running low dose test with the 19-nors as opposed to high dosed test. Would you agree?
YoungBodyBuil
Banned
I'd be on board with that too but not while running epi.. i feel like id be too dry
Gutterpump
Banned
1000%!! Totally onboard with that school of thought, and in my experience, there are far fewer sides with low dosed test on 19-nor's. This is how I will always run them. I used to be scared of 19-nor's, but not anymore.
Gutterpump
Banned
TBH I ran tren ace at 350mg/week, test cyp at 125mg/week with 46mg epistane daily and was fine. Almost no sides on that cycle (with proper ancilliaries) except insomnia.
Not only were sides very low, but sex drive was uncontrollable. Good thing I had LIP (live in girlfriend) at the time.
Sparkss
Well-known member
just started TRT 2 weeks ago. Feeling pretty good so far. The lethargy I had been feeling subsided earlier this week. Not planning to run anything until after my 4 week blood draw (just to get a good baseline), but I am trying to plan something for after that. I also will not be running any different TRT dose on versus off cycle. I was 100% natty (technically can't say that any more 
) until I started TRT. I am very interested in which compounds work well and which ones needs adjunct support and just all of the ins and outs of it. Especially for what will essentially be a first cycle.
) until I started TRT. I am very interested in which compounds work well and which ones needs adjunct support and just all of the ins and outs of it. Especially for what will essentially be a first cycle.
WAF
Active member
im old i don't know what B and C is? perhaps AAS aren't the best choice if you cant "predict your personality".....also sometimes you should listen to people with experience.
MrKleen73
Legend
just started TRT 2 weeks ago. Feeling pretty good so far. The lethargy I had been feeling subsided earlier this week. Not planning to run anything until after my 4 week blood draw (just to get a good baseline), but I am trying to plan something for after that. I also will not be running any different TRT dose on versus off cycle. I was 100% natty (technically can't say that any more
How long was your testosterone low and what were your levels? The reason I ask is that you may not need to run a cycle at all for the first 6 months of TRT depending on how long it was low. If low for a while you are going to start making some decent gains over the next 4-6 months. I would't waste that opportunity for growth at a physiologically natural test levels by going into a cycle until after your gains from going on TRT slow a bit. Right now your AR are very receptive and it won't take a cycle to get some smaller cycle type gains from going on TRT. I know lots of guys who gained 10lbs and got leaner the first 6 months of TRT without ever increasing the dose. I would take advantage of that before cycling. After that I would probably look at a single compound run like Test E or Test C at 500mg a week for 8-16 weeks. You can always increase the test dose later in the cycle but learn what testosterone does for your first then you will know what is going on additionally when you begin to add other compounds.
WAF
Active member
When i hear blasting and cruising im thinking about how guys do it here for years at a time. Yes MrKleen73 and myself are usually the bearer of bad news and the squeaky wheel. This is because we both have experience with this for multiple years and can see danger on the front. Everyone doesn't have to take our advice but at least listen to it and rethink certain issues. Oh and even though you have a bullet proof htpa and no issues getting it up doesn't mean you wont have fertitly issues, having unlimited money in your pocket wont make your boys swim. Take it from a guy who had to get IVF done. Remember you only have one body and getting wrong advice before you personally think and research it is foolish.......Flamesuit on!
YoungBodyBuil
Banned
No offense but you didnt read that all too well or the rest of my messages. I said PCT makes my personality variable and EVERYONE experiences this to an extent where is test is test and i just feel leveled, cognitive, and driven. Taht a lot is enough reason to avoid PCT, and listen to people with experience? Did you not read the rest of the thread where MrKleen and i conversed on said subject i wasn't closeminded nor turning down advice AT ALL.
YoungBodyBuil
Banned
WAF
Active member
That was after i quoted you. that i seen Kleen also quoted you and i took it the same way he took your statement. Oh and i read the rest of it after i quoted you and he quoted you then you started replying back and forth.
Where did i say you where telling bambam to do it???
So what i was going to say in the first place was asking bambam if he was going to do it, I wasn't talking to you or addressing you.
Sparkss
Well-known member
Fantastic points and something I was sort of trying to capitalize on this week. More about that after I answer your question:
It was low (based on symptoms) for a month or two before I did my 1st blood draw w/ low #s, that was with T levels of 263. I went to my doctor and he looked at my patient history, lab work and age and recommended TRT. I did another blood draw a little over a month later and was up to 290 (still below the bottom "range" and I still felt like crap). The last time I felt "good" was earlier this year and at that time I had T levels of 550+ But it started to drop pretty dramatically over the summer for some reason. My doc said based on my age it was "just my time", so I went ahead with TRT. He used pellets, I have 9 of those tic-tacs in my rear butt cheek.
What I meant about capitalizing on the TRT was that I figured right now (just over the 2 week mark) I am maybe still making some of my own Test, plus the exogenous from the TRT. This week into next will likely be the highest my levels will be, until suppression sets in and I am 100% supported T levels via TRT. I did notice an increase in energy, strength and fullness. What you are saying about just riding out the first 6+ months of TRT makes sense and is something I had thought about. Just to see what I could do with "positive" test levels and natty supps like Anabeta Elite, and the like. I will admit that I am letting my ego and impatience drive me a little, but your suggestion is resonating with my long term goals.
Although I was low, I was not at sub 100 levels for years, so I am not sure how much results I will see. I guess it also depends on what T levels I end up with. I have another blood draw in 2 weeks, that should give me an idea of my "new" baseline. Any thoughts or suggestions are definitely appreciated!
MrKleen73
Legend
Excellent, and you don't have to be sub 100 for years but if you were sub 300-350 you were still low enough to suffer some atrophy due to your hormonal system not being up to par to maintain higher levels of muscle. So once that is corrected normal levels will seem like smaller cycle levels to your androgen receptors. Good thing is you know you feel best over 550 and that is something you can bring up with your Doc. If you are not getting up that high just let him know what range you have felt the best in and if within normal ranges he should use that for a goal to shoot for. I am not sure how much longer it takes for your test to rise when on pellets so that is something you would want to ask them. I do 2 75mg shots of Test enanthate a week myself.
Sparkss
Well-known member
He basically said that by the 4 week mark I will see the levels I should expect to maintain on this # of pellets (until the pellets start to peter out). I may try to switch to shots later, but right now my insurance doesn't cover either and the pellets are barely more per month than what I have seen test for sale for. So far the pellets have been treating me OK. Time will tell. Thanks again for all of your feedback, I really appreciate it!
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Hey guys. Still alive. I'll update soon if I remember lol. I'll try to do it tonight
Sparkss
Well-known member
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Oh hey guys, lol
BamBam0319
Well-known member
I do! Somehow...
Sparkss
Well-known member
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Whew I have a ton to update you all on.
Currently 232lbs morning weight, by the end of the day I'm probably as high as 236, 237...
I hired a coach. Just doing 8 weeks with him right now to see how I handle the strict diet, and following a training program that isn't my own.
We're bulking hard, if my diet is anything to go by. 4700 cals on workout days, 4300 on off days. By the time I go to bed I feel like I can hardly hold it all down lol
I need to do some progress pics but probably not tonight. I woke up with a severely swollen and white spot covered tonsil the other day and haven't had a chance to get in to a doc. Definitely not feeling 100% and I don't think I'm looking it either.
Drugs! I am actually STILL on EQ but only 300mg/week because I had an extra bottle I forgot about. I did run NPP like I had discussed here before, and that was fun. I ran at 500 for the first 5 weeks and then probably as high as 900 in the final week because I was going on a ski trip, couldn't bring it with me, and I didn't want to waste a cc or two so I just finished it all off.
I cruised for about 4 weeks (250 test and 300 EQ) and with the commencement of this program with my coach almost a week ago, I have started blasting test. Ive mentioned it here before but I'm using a mega blend freebie I got a while back. 600mg/ml of various esters. I'm doing 0.5ml every other day, so weekly total is between 900 and 1200. Boy does that high concentration leave a knot in my glute!
Ok so what am I missing/what else do you guys wanna know?
BamBam0319
Well-known member
You're telling me. I've had one hell of a lump in my ass for like 3 days now. It's fading finally though.
rascal14
Well-known member
That's what she said
BamBam0319
Well-known member
This year I went to Winter Park, CO. We went between Christmas and New Years and I realized how much I hate holiday season skiing. Too much waiting in lines, not enough shredding powder and hitting black diamonds.
Haha my first day on the mountain I took snowboarding lessons. I died too
Lol
rascal14
Well-known member
This year I went to Winter Park, CO. We went between Christmas and New Years and I realized how much I hate holiday season skiing. Too much waiting in lines, not enough shredding powder and hitting black diamonds.
Haha my first day on the mountain I took snowboarding lessons. I died too
Lol
I went to Keystone, but took snowboarding lessons at Arapahoe Basin the first day. Keystone was a **** show with how many people there were on the mountain. It honestly sucked because it was hard to learn and get decent with that many people. I kept getting cut off by skiers and having to fall to avoid hitting them. Not to mention it was like a blizzard every day and I could barely see. I am trash at toe side anything, so I have to go switch and do heel side lol
BamBam0319
Well-known member
I'm just garbage at anything like skateboarding, wakeboarding, snowboarding... etc.
I've been skiing for almost 15 years though and it takes me about 10 minutes each year to get the hang of it again on my first day back on the slopes. I plan on going again this spring when it's less crowded.
rascal14
Well-known member
I was pretty good at skateboarding a while back, I've never tried wake boarding for some reason. But I'd like to go again sometime it's less crowded.
I just didn't like getting too much speed, it would freak me out lol. I need trails that are less steep but long and winding and I'll be happy.