PCT for Havoc/Trenadrol
- Thread starter dax506
- Start date
beejman
New member
You are going to get both opinions... people passionate on both sides of the issue for this stack (search around and you will find this same question sparks some good debates) I am running the same stack (except tren xtreme in place of trenadrol) and I plan on attempting PCT using OTC supps (reversitol, formex, lean xtreme) but I DO have some nolva and some toremifene on hand in case I feel the need as I get closer to post cycle. Right now (day 12) i feel like the OTC will be sufficient, but the next 18 days could change things. THe last thing you want to do is have a OTC PCT lined up then realize you are severely shut down and rebound gyno is creeping up and then you have to scramble to find a SERM, why not spend 40 bucks and put a serm on your shelf just in case?
Again, I plan on going to OTC route for my current cycle at this point... I think it will be sufficient based on the way I am feeling less than halfway through.
Again, I plan on going to OTC route for my current cycle at this point... I think it will be sufficient based on the way I am feeling less than halfway through.
GeekPoop
Well-known member
AI - if you wanna use a serm id go w/ clomi
Natural test booster
cortisol blocker
+
support supps
nattydisaster
PESCIENCE.com
IBE Formex + a SERM
If you cant get a SERM
Formex + AI Post Cycle Support.
If you cant get a SERM
Formex + AI Post Cycle Support.
LAGear
Active member
I'm getting ready to run my first cycle which is most likely going to be four weeks of Havoc. In my research I've read this notion about "realizing you're shutdown" a few times now.
Assuming you've got the OTC and the SERM ready for PCT can you explain how it is you're supposed know you are shutdown and need to use the SERM? And t that point would you use the SERM and the OTC or just use the SERM?
Thanks.
mooch2321
Well-known member
that comes from experience and knowing your body....but testicular atrophy is a good warning sign....
edit:as for the other part of your question you need to learn what issues need to be adressed in pct and decide how you going to do that...serm or no serm or a combination....there are bases that need to be covered....research my freind
edit:as for the other part of your question you need to learn what issues need to be adressed in pct and decide how you going to do that...serm or no serm or a combination....there are bases that need to be covered....research my freind
Brenn
New member
You'll know it when you see it./feel it. I was 3 weeks into a 6 weeker of Epi amd doing great! Libido was up, testes were looking pumped. (The GF, who didn't know about the Epi told me my so) . "Excellent" I thought.
Well, over the next few days, the libido crashed and they shrank up to worrisome proportions in the final 3 weeks. "Not good", thought I. I almost finished early because of this. Clomid and transdermal ATD sorted me out in PCT. I think they're bigger than before.
When your libido wanders off (mine sprinted away as if chased) and your junk plays hide 'n seek, there's no mistaking it. You're shut down, IMO.
Well, over the next few days, the libido crashed and they shrank up to worrisome proportions in the final 3 weeks. "Not good", thought I. I almost finished early because of this. Clomid and transdermal ATD sorted me out in PCT. I think they're bigger than before.
When your libido wanders off (mine sprinted away as if chased) and your junk plays hide 'n seek, there's no mistaking it. You're shut down, IMO.
LAGear
Active member
I'm hoping to avoid that on my first cycle.
Was this your first time? Do you recall your Epi dosing and your pre-cycle stats?
Have you run anything since then and did you always get shutdown?
Appreciate the info. Thanks!
Research is what I'm doing. Seemingly nonstop for the last few weeks.
Problem is that this is unlike any research I've ever done. There appears to be no right or wrong answer. The more you read the more confusion there is. There are people at every end of the spectrum and all points in between who believe they are right.
What I've decided to do is plan for OTC PCT and have a SERM on hand in case it's needed. I'm also considering maybe starting the OTC PCT with a low SERM dose for a few days and then stopping the SERM if there are no symptoms. But I have no idea if stopping a SERM after a few days is a boneheaded idea. Trying to get some feedback about that proposition.
Brenn
New member
No problem to answer your questions! Here goes:
"I'm hoping to avoid that on my first cycle".
...If you mean avoid shutdown, you'd be in the minority, mate! It happens more to some less to others, but anytime you introduce AAS/DS you shut down to some degree. You may hold it off for longer by lower doses, but then you just stress the body with chems for little or no gains. There is a threshold for these things (AAS/DS) to act on muscle, but the shutdown threshold is much lower IMO. Best to plan for all possible sides and meet them immediatley if/when they occur. I think possibly because of my age, I benefitted from Epi a lot in the muscle gains, but it shut me down like nothing ever did in my 20's. It works, but it's no joke!
"Was this your first time? Do you recall your Epi dosing and your pre-cycle stats?"
...It was my first cycle of Epi. I'd done many AAS cycles in my 20's. I was 265 at my biggest. Then took 12 or so years off of AAS and changed my training and life and habits, work etc. My sport became sculling (rowing) which burns up muscle. So, lots of cardio and other types of training. I lost lots of muscle down to 190 at one point.
Dosing and stats?
...I gained 11lbs on Epi. I dosed 20/30/40/40/40/40. Started low to see if i could low dose it, but no good. I felt great at 40e/d. Different compounds act differently with each user. I can take 10mg of Anavar e/d and get freaky strong for instance. For some reason, I do better with DHT derivitives than straight anabolics. Everyone's different. I'd use the minimum necessarry to gain is all.
My pre-cycle stats?
...About 12%BF at 215lbs, 6'2", 36y/o
Ended at 226lb/12%. It was about two months ago. I lost 2lbs of water in the week coming off Epi, then kept the rest. Im 221 now because I've started a cut.
"Have you run anything since then and did you always get shutdown?"
...Nope, haven't run anything since then. It's too soon. I need another month. Im planning the next one now, but haven't made the final call on whether I want to be responsible for being over 250 again in the next year. Eating, cutting all the time, liver stress, etc. Im not doing it unless I can do it long-term and healthily. Im lucky that I usually keep almost all my gains with a good PCT.
Did I always get shutdown?
Yes, I was always shut down, but I bounced back quick. Bro, I was an idiot. I started young, way too young. But lets talk about my 20's: When I was 22-25, I'd bounce back from AAS like nothing. Harsh sh*t like Anadrol or Deca solo or Test/Deca, no pct. Ridiculous. But then about 25, I did a little Test cycle, the last one, and didnt bounce back. I lost 20 lbs without PCT and felt like death. That's when I stopped. It took me a year to feel good again and by then I was 230-ish.
If you choose to do this, just know that you'll get shut down and prep for it, so you dont panic, it's a strange feeling.
Hope Ive helped in some way!
Disclaimer:
Don't take any of my advice or do as I've done. It's all ficticious. Consult your doctor about health questions. Im merely a figment of your imagination. Dont try this at home.
"I'm hoping to avoid that on my first cycle".
...If you mean avoid shutdown, you'd be in the minority, mate! It happens more to some less to others, but anytime you introduce AAS/DS you shut down to some degree. You may hold it off for longer by lower doses, but then you just stress the body with chems for little or no gains. There is a threshold for these things (AAS/DS) to act on muscle, but the shutdown threshold is much lower IMO. Best to plan for all possible sides and meet them immediatley if/when they occur. I think possibly because of my age, I benefitted from Epi a lot in the muscle gains, but it shut me down like nothing ever did in my 20's. It works, but it's no joke!
"Was this your first time? Do you recall your Epi dosing and your pre-cycle stats?"
...It was my first cycle of Epi. I'd done many AAS cycles in my 20's. I was 265 at my biggest. Then took 12 or so years off of AAS and changed my training and life and habits, work etc. My sport became sculling (rowing) which burns up muscle. So, lots of cardio and other types of training. I lost lots of muscle down to 190 at one point.
Dosing and stats?
...I gained 11lbs on Epi. I dosed 20/30/40/40/40/40. Started low to see if i could low dose it, but no good. I felt great at 40e/d. Different compounds act differently with each user. I can take 10mg of Anavar e/d and get freaky strong for instance. For some reason, I do better with DHT derivitives than straight anabolics. Everyone's different. I'd use the minimum necessarry to gain is all.
My pre-cycle stats?
...About 12%BF at 215lbs, 6'2", 36y/o
Ended at 226lb/12%. It was about two months ago. I lost 2lbs of water in the week coming off Epi, then kept the rest. Im 221 now because I've started a cut.
"Have you run anything since then and did you always get shutdown?"
...Nope, haven't run anything since then. It's too soon. I need another month. Im planning the next one now, but haven't made the final call on whether I want to be responsible for being over 250 again in the next year. Eating, cutting all the time, liver stress, etc. Im not doing it unless I can do it long-term and healthily. Im lucky that I usually keep almost all my gains with a good PCT.
Did I always get shutdown?
Yes, I was always shut down, but I bounced back quick. Bro, I was an idiot. I started young, way too young. But lets talk about my 20's: When I was 22-25, I'd bounce back from AAS like nothing. Harsh sh*t like Anadrol or Deca solo or Test/Deca, no pct. Ridiculous. But then about 25, I did a little Test cycle, the last one, and didnt bounce back. I lost 20 lbs without PCT and felt like death. That's when I stopped. It took me a year to feel good again and by then I was 230-ish.
If you choose to do this, just know that you'll get shut down and prep for it, so you dont panic, it's a strange feeling.
Hope Ive helped in some way!
Disclaimer:
Don't take any of my advice or do as I've done. It's all ficticious. Consult your doctor about health questions. Im merely a figment of your imagination. Dont try this at home.
LAGear
Active member
Thanks so much for taking the time to help Bro! That is really helpful.
I wonder if all the gear you used in the past had something to do with your Epi shutdown? It seems like the majority of people who run Havoc/Epi do not shutdown, or if they do it's very mild.
I'm hoping to be one of the lucky ones but I'm going to have a SERM just in case.
I've almost got it figured out now. Just have a few more things I need to clear up. It's going to feel like a huge relief when I finally start the friggin cycle. I'm working way harder trying to figure all this out before the cycle than I'm going to have to work on cycle. I've spent soooo much time researching.
If anyone can comment on my thought about taking low dose SERM for the first few days of PCT from a few posts up, that would be great
GeekPoop
Well-known member
Good point, ya get shutdown sex drive down and balls are shrunk. Its not the end of the world.
UKStrength
Guest
It's good that you're a little anxious, it'll mean that you listen closely to your body and (hopefully) stop your cycle at the first sign of something going awry.
I honestly think from my last cycle that the SERMS did more damage than good. They are almost certainly necessary on heavy cycles to prevent prolonged shutdown but some guys are popping them like sweeties when in fact they are really liver toxic at high dosages.
Personally I think use the lowest dosage possible to recover and whatever OTC supps you can muster for PCT instead.
I honestly think from my last cycle that the SERMS did more damage than good. They are almost certainly necessary on heavy cycles to prevent prolonged shutdown but some guys are popping them like sweeties when in fact they are really liver toxic at high dosages.
Personally I think use the lowest dosage possible to recover and whatever OTC supps you can muster for PCT instead.
LAGear
Active member
I'm actually worried I'll end up being too anxious. You know, imagining things that aren't happening because I'm sensitive to any possible change. Unless it's major I'm going to try not to abort at the "first sign" but make sure that the sign isn't in my head. Actually, I'm hearing all this stuff about suppression being normal so I feel like if I experience some shutdown I should ignore it and trust that PCT will fix it. That is going to be the hard part -- ignoring the sides and having faith in PCT.
Psychology is a big part of this. I think one of the good things pre-cycle research does (for those who bother to do it) is weed out those who aren't psychologically ready for aas/ph/ps.
Yesterday on the PP forums I read an article from the founder that using an AI in PCT is detrimental unless your cycle is more than six weeks and/or you used hcg. I was going to use Formex in my PCT but now I'm unsure. Any thoughts about that?
I really appreciate the help I've been getting here. More help from the folks on AM than any other site. I hope to repay that to others when I feel like I'm qualified to help.
Thanks guys!
LAGear
Active member
Are you going to use an OTC PCT as well? Eric from Primordial Products (the founder) recommends no more than 10/mg a day of Nolva if you stack it with a good OTC PCT like Sustain Alpha. Not sure if he would advise such a low dose if not stacked with an OTC.
Have you considered Toremifene? Everything I read suggests that this is the most effective and safest SERM, but most expensive. I think that's what I'm going to use if I can get it.
If I understand his PCT article Eric also advises against using an AI under any circumstance with a four week cycle. Would love to hear thoughts from others about this. I've seen some people say that AI is optional but the preponderance of advice seems to recommend it.
I haven't started my cycle yet and I'm all for skipping the AI if there's no downside (four week Havoc cycle).
UKStrength
Guest
No worries mate, we'd rather you got some good, non-biased information and had a safe cycle than be confused and doing yourself more harm than good.
LAGear
Active member
I think that would be Eric's advice. His recommendation of lower-than-usual SERMs assumes that you are using OTC PCT.
I don't know I'll ever get to the point of not being confused. LOL
I'm about ready to post my PCT in a new thread and hope I'll get some good feedback.