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OTC PCT Guide ...

dmangiarelli said:
I don't have any experience with using it transdermally so i could not answer that question. I will look it up and see what i can find out ...

Edit: According to Invalid Link Removed

"Another potential route is transdermal 6-OXO, and users have reported good results at 100-400 mg using this method."
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Thanks very much. TD here I go.
 
Thanks for the PM kernel and replied!

I am glad you like the OTC PCT info!


CROWLER
 
Dmang, while I can see the rationale for using post cycle support I understand this to be a new supplement. Presumably prior to this being available guys doing an OTC PCT for a PH cycle just used 6-OXO all the way through PCT. I appreciate your OTC protocol still uses 6-OXO few weeks into the PCT, but could you discuss precisely the benefit to using your OTC PCT as outlined in this thread vs. just using 6-OXO as the main supplement all the way through.
 
Kiwi said:
Dmang, while I can see the rationale for using post cycle support I understand this to be a new supplement. Presumably prior to this being available guys doing an OTC PCT for a PH cycle just used 6-OXO all the way through PCT. I appreciate your OTC protocol still uses 6-OXO few weeks into the PCT, but could you discuss precisely the benefit to using your OTC PCT as outlined in this thread vs. just using 6-OXO as the main supplement all the way through.
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I can only discuss it in terms that relate to me and my situation. I ran an epi cycle and used only 6-oxo for PCT and did not recover HPTA. I was still suppressed (and had no libido) a good 3 months down the road which is what led me to research and find out why. Turns out that my estrogen was already suppressed coming off my cycle and suppressing it more led to failed recovery of HPTA.

So, this guide was laid out as a response to the fact that there really isn't any resource out there for guys looking to use an OTC only protocol. I just tried to put it all in one place so people have a starting point to research on OTC protocols. I hope it is helpful for those looking into such a PCT...
 
Can someone suggest a complete pct for Trenx/Epidrol cycle i'v never used pct in any of my injectable cycles and somehow never had any sides, but u guys got me thinking now with this ph stuff. i'm running trenx 90/90/90/90 with epidrol 20/30/30/40.
 
Here is some information from Don. The actual suggestions are down at the bottom.

Invalid Link Removed


CROWLER
 
Thanx man. I've read all of these articles and understand now what should be used in a general sense, but just wanted some clarification on what may be included or excluded from this protocol based on my specific stack Trenx 90/90/90/90 and Epi 20/30/30/40.

So i think ill run this
1-4 PCS/ZMA
3-5 LeanX
4-7 6oxo and vitex
Sound Good?
 
The cortisol blocker can be started at the beginning of week of two. I'm not sure what vitex is, but your layout looks good to me. The only other thing that you might want to look in to is something like Activate Xtreme. This will help free bound test.
 
Oh yeah, that's the chasteberry extract, right? I would think that you would start running it alongside the TrenX (or shortly after starting the TrenX).
 
Hey Dman what do you mean by running 6oxo @ 400/300/200/100 if thats mg /day and each cap is 300mg then u're running way under the reccomended dosage??
 
mdtech123 said:
Hey Dman what do you mean by running 6oxo @ 400/300/200/100 if thats mg /day and each cap is 300mg then u're running way under the reccomended dosage??
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Each cap is 100mg, the recommended dosage is 3 caps (300 mgs) according to the label. But he is tapering the dosage off in his protocol so its starts higher @400 and tapers down to 100mg.
 
Yup, drakec has the right idea. It happens to the best of us Mdtech123!
 
Go back to the first few posts of this thread. This is an expample, but you really should research and figure out what is best for you. This will get you started though: Invalid Link Removed

dmangiarelli said:
Thanks guys. To answer the dosing questions a general scheme would be like this

Weeks 1-4 PCS/I3C/ZMA PCS would be dosed 2 caps in the morning and 2 in the evening preferably 8-12 hours apart. I3C would be dosed 400-600 mgs every day and ZMA at bedtime as directed on teh bottle.

Weeks 4-7 6-oxo This would begin high at 400 mgs and taper down to 100 in the last week. 400/300/200/100

Weeks 3-6 Lean Xtreme or any other cort blocker you like at 3 caps every day.

You can substitute your favorite products for whatever I used. I used those products because I know they work for me but I wrote this as an overall guide not an end all be all PCT to be followed to the letter.
Click to expand...
 
mdtech123 said:
Can someone suggest a complete pct for Trenx/Epidrol cycle i'v never used pct in any of my injectable cycles and somehow never had any sides, but u guys got me thinking now with this ph stuff. i'm running trenx 90/90/90/90 with epidrol 20/30/30/40.
Click to expand...

Post Cycle Support/I3C/ZMA weeks 1-4
6-oxo/Activate Xtreme weeks 4-7

You should have some Vitex on hand too in case of prolactin sides ...
 
alan1973 said:
WHOA!!!:jaw:
a seven week PCT cycle???
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If you look around you will see plenty of posters getting rebound gyno. Probably because their PCT cycles are too short. If you don't do anything, it takes 6 mos to 2 years to recover. People are free to chance it but I prefer to get my nads back to producing a healthy amount of test before I consider another cycle ...
 
dmangiarelli said:
If you look around you will see plenty of posters getting rebound gyno. Probably because their PCT cycles are too short. If you don't do anything, it takes 6 mos to 2 years to recover. People are free to chance it but I prefer to get my nads back to producing a healthy amount of test before I consider another cycle ...
Click to expand...


What about Cycle Support? Do you recommend this product before, during & after a cycle?
 
A lot of interesting info here on pct and AIs but what would you do if you were receiving for medical reasons an external source of testosterone, for ever .The nuts shutting down doesnt seem to be an issue with the medical profession nor does estrogen levels. and so far estrogen its not an issue , but how can i get the best from this treatment in terms of muscle building
 
corsaking said:
A lot of interesting info here on pct and AIs but what would you do if you were receiving for medical reasons an external source of testosterone, for ever .The nuts shutting down doesnt seem to be an issue with the medical profession nor does estrogen levels. and so far estrogen its not an issue , but how can i get the best from this treatment in terms of muscle building
Click to expand...

I am assuming you are on HRY? What dose of test? Are you getting injections or topical creme?
 
ALUISLUGO said:
What about Cycle Support? Do you recommend this product before, during & after a cycle?
Click to expand...

I would not do a cycle without this stuff. Methyl or not most DS will raise blood pressure, affect the kidneys, cholesterol and prostate.

Pre-load 10-14 days out with 1 scoop/day then go to 2 scoops/day on cycle. You can utilize it in PCT if you feel the need or if you plan to use a SERM to help detox the liver...
 
dmangiarelli said:
I am assuming you are on HRY? What dose of test? Are you getting injections or topical creme?
Click to expand...


Yes i m on TEST replacement therapy receiving an injection of Nebido test undeconate in an oil base, every 11 weeks.One dose of Nebido® contains 1000 mg of testosterone undecanoate in a 4 ml oily solution. Testosterone concentration remains within the normal physiological range during the 11 week interval between injections.That said i understand the test peaks in the blood in the 3rd week and steadily declines over the period of 11 weeks So i assume the levels of dht and estrogen rise and decline accordingly

Anyone confirm this please
 
corsaking said:
Yes i m on TEST replacement therapy receiving an injection of Nebido test undeconate in an oil base, every 11 weeks.One dose of Nebido® contains 1000 mg of testosterone undecanoate in a 4 ml oily solution. Testosterone concentration remains within the normal physiological range during the 11 week interval between injections.That said i understand the test peaks in the blood in the 3rd week and steadily declines over the period of 11 weeks So i assume the levels of dht and estrogen rise and decline accordingly

Anyone confirm this please
Click to expand...

It would probably be beneficial to use some sort of SHBG binder during these treatments to raise the amount of free test in teh blood stream. Free test is otherwise known as usable test that can be bound to Androgen Receptors. Divanil is such a compound ...
 
dmangiarelli said:
It would probably be beneficial to use some sort of SHBG binder during these treatments to raise the amount of free test in teh blood stream. Free test is otherwise known as usable test that can be bound to Androgen Receptors. Divanil is such a compound ...
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Thanks for that but if more free test is available , then isnt there more test available to convert to estrogen?
 
corsaking said:
Thanks for that but if more free test is available , then isnt there more test available to convert to estrogen?
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If you are worried about conversion then a product like Activate Xtreme which also contains I3C would take care of that. I3C is a mild AI ...
 
I never thought about it, but you guys are implying that only free test can aromatize. Is this safe to assume?
 
I wasn't sure in what manner SHBG was "bound" to test. There are certain cases in chemistry in which something doing the "occupying" can be displaced by something that has a stronger attraction to what ever it is that is "being occupied."

It would be like you knocking the obnoxious gym rat off the bench at the gym b/c he wouldn't let you work in, lol!
 
stxnas said:
I wasn't sure in what manner SHBG was "bound" to test. There are certain cases in chemistry in which something doing the "occupying" can be displaced by something that has a stronger attraction to what ever it is that is "being occupied."

It would be like you knocking the obnoxious gym rat off the bench at the gym b/c he wouldn't let you work in, lol!
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LOL! I haven't knocked anyone off a bench but i have forcefully worked in ... :D
 
Dmang, I have started my CEL Mdrol cycle. currently Iam only on my 3rd day at 10mg per day. I was planning a cycle of 10/20/20/ and depending on the response I may go a fourth week of 20, not sure yet. In the past I have done Havoc and Hdrol for 4 weeks each, excellent gains, minimal sides on either one. I ran Havoc at 30/40/40/40. My Hdrol Cycle was 50/75/100/100. I gained approximately 14 lbs on each. I seem to react very good to these complunds and Iam now trying Mdrol, Ive been skeptical because of all the bad sides I hear about. This is what I have for what Iam doing now:

Torem on hand 30ml/100 - How do you know if this is needed?
Cycle support throughout
Post Cycle Support
? Diesel Test Hardcore is there anything better out there in your opinion? ? is 6 oxo extreme better?
6 oxo - Ergopharm - Aromatase Inhibitor
Activate Extreme - Designer Supplements - Testosterone and Estrogen control
Lean Extreme - Designer Supplements - Cortisol Blocker

Wow are all of these really needed? I guess it depends on the person, but wow. After and during my other cycles, my boys shrank a little bit but my libido was always thru the roof.
 
spshond said:
Dmang, I have started my CEL Mdrol cycle. currently Iam only on my 3rd day at 10mg per day. I was planning a cycle of 10/20/20/ and depending on the response I may go a fourth week of 20, not sure yet. In the past I have done Havoc and Hdrol for 4 weeks each, excellent gains, minimal sides on either one. I ran Havoc at 30/40/40/40. My Hdrol Cycle was 50/75/100/100. I gained approximately 14 lbs on each. I seem to react very good to these complunds and Iam now trying Mdrol, Ive been skeptical because of all the bad sides I hear about. This is what I have for what Iam doing now:

Torem on hand 30ml/100 - How do you know if this is needed?
Cycle support throughout
Post Cycle Support
? Diesel Test Hardcore is there anything better out there in your opinion? ? is 6 oxo extreme better?
6 oxo - Ergopharm - Aromatase Inhibitor
Activate Extreme - Designer Supplements - Testosterone and Estrogen control
Lean Extreme - Designer Supplements - Cortisol Blocker

Wow are all of these really needed? I guess it depends on the person, but wow. After and during my other cycles, my boys shrank a little bit but my libido was always thru the roof.
Click to expand...

Dependds on how you are looking at PCT. If you want to go with the Torem I would just run that 120/90/60/30 and then in the 4th week run 6-oxo tapered down. M-drol is pretty harsh and will shut you down hard so the 6-oxo might want to be ran something like 600/300/200/100 or even 600/400/200/100. DTH is a 6-bromo product right? So I wouldn't run that along with 6-oxo, either/or would be fine IMO.
 
dmangiarelli said:
Dependds on how you are looking at PCT. If you want to go with the Torem I would just run that 120/90/60/30 and then in the 4th week run 6-oxo tapered down. M-drol is pretty harsh and will shut you down hard so the 6-oxo might want to be ran something like 600/300/200/100 or even 600/400/200/100. DTH is a 6-bromo product right? So I wouldn't run that along with 6-oxo, either/or would be fine IMO.
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Would this PCT be just fine or is this too much:

Compounds being run:
Mdrol 10/20/20
Havoc 0/0/0/40/40/40/40

PCT:
Detox & liver support - AI Cycle Support - 8Weeks // 1 - 7 // 2 scoops per day.

Trans-Resveratrol - AI Post Cycle Support(120 caps) - 8Weeks // 1 - 8 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Serm (estrogen control) - Torem 30ml/100 - 120/90/60/30 4Weeks // 1 - 4 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Testosterone Booster - Diesel Test Hardcore(120 caps) - 4Weeks // 1 - 4 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Cortisol Control - Lean Extreme(90 caps) - 4Weeks // 3 - 7 // 1 bottle 3x per day 90 caps.

Aromatase Inhibitor - 6-OXO Extreme(60 caps) - 4Weeks // 4 - 7 // 2 bottles 4x per day 120 caps.

*******************
Here are my questions:
Is it useless to take AI Post Cycle Support since 6-oxo has everything it has and in addition, estrogen control? Should I save my AI Post Cycle Support or just go ahead and take it?

The more I hear about it the moe likely i will not use an AI like 6-oxo. I do not want a rebound possibility, what do you guys think?

Is this too much or just right on, is there anything I can take out or would you add something in the place of another?
 
spshond said:
Would this PCT be just fine or is this too much:

Compounds being run:
Mdrol 10/20/20
Havoc 0/0/0/40/40/40/40

PCT:
Detox & liver support - AI Cycle Support - 8Weeks // 1 - 7 // 2 scoops per day.

Trans-Resveratrol - AI Post Cycle Support(120 caps) - 8Weeks // 1 - 8 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Serm (estrogen control) - Torem 30ml/100 - 120/90/60/30 4Weeks // 1 - 4 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Testosterone Booster - Diesel Test Hardcore(120 caps) - 4Weeks // 1 - 4 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Cortisol Control - Lean Extreme(90 caps) - 4Weeks // 3 - 7 // 1 bottle 3x per day 90 caps.

Aromatase Inhibitor - 6-OXO Extreme(60 caps) - 4Weeks // 4 - 7 // 2 bottles 4x per day 120 caps.

*******************
Here are my questions:
Is it useless to take AI Post Cycle Support since 6-oxo has everything it has and in addition, estrogen control? Should I save my AI Post Cycle Support or just go ahead and take it?

The more I hear about it the moe likely i will not use an AI like 6-oxo. I do not want a rebound possibility, what do you guys think?

Is this too much or just right on, is there anything I can take out or would you add something in the place of another?
Click to expand...
I hope the liver support is being taken during cycle as well.
 
spshond said:
Would this PCT be just fine or is this too much:

Compounds being run:
Mdrol 10/20/20
Havoc 0/0/0/40/40/40/40

PCT:
Detox & liver support - AI Cycle Support - 8Weeks // 1 - 7 // 2 scoops per day.

Trans-Resveratrol - AI Post Cycle Support(120 caps) - 8Weeks // 1 - 8 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Serm (estrogen control) - Torem 30ml/100 - 120/90/60/30 4Weeks // 1 - 4 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Testosterone Booster - Diesel Test Hardcore(120 caps) - 4Weeks // 1 - 4 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Cortisol Control - Lean Extreme(90 caps) - 4Weeks // 3 - 7 // 1 bottle 3x per day 90 caps.

Aromatase Inhibitor - 6-OXO Extreme(60 caps) - 4Weeks // 4 - 7 // 2 bottles 4x per day 120 caps.

*******************
Here are my questions:
Is it useless to take AI Post Cycle Support since 6-oxo has everything it has and in addition, estrogen control? Should I save my AI Post Cycle Support or just go ahead and take it?

The more I hear about it the moe likely i will not use an AI like 6-oxo. I do not want a rebound possibility, what do you guys think?

Is this too much or just right on, is there anything I can take out or would you add something in the place of another?
Click to expand...

This is how it should look:

On cycle preloaded 10 days out at 1 scoop/day Cycle Support
Then on cycle 2 scoops/day Cycle Support
You may want to consider picking up some Vitex for on cycle. See my PH/DS research thread at bb dot com for more info.

PCT:
Weeks 1-4
Torem 120/90/60/30
Cycle Support @ 1 scoop/day
Post Cycle Support

Weeks 4-7
Activate Xtreme and am AI
If you have access to MD mag look at PA's column in May or June. He outlines a PCT for Superdrol ...

Good luck ...
 
alan1973 said:
I hope the liver support is being taken during cycle as well.
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Cycle Support is great for liver protection. The ingredients in bold help protect the liver and or support a healthy lipid profile:

Cycle Support said:
Servings Per Container60
2 Servings Provide:

(All Extracts Are Standardized)
Red Yeast Rice 1200mg
NAC 1200mg
Silymarin (Milk Thistle Extract) 1000mg
Hawthorn Berry 1000mg
Saw Palmetto 300mg
Nettle Root 250mg
Celery Seed Extract 150mg
Idebenone 100mg (Analogue of CoQ10 that is not a pro oxidant)
Policosanol 20mg
Click to expand...
 
spshond said:
Would this PCT be just fine or is this too much:

Compounds being run:
Mdrol 10/20/20
Havoc 0/0/0/40/40/40/40

PCT:
Detox & liver support - AI Cycle Support - 8Weeks // 1 - 7 // 2 scoops per day.

Trans-Resveratrol - AI Post Cycle Support(120 caps) - 8Weeks // 1 - 8 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Serm (estrogen control) - Torem 30ml/100 - 120/90/60/30 4Weeks // 1 - 4 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Testosterone Booster - Diesel Test Hardcore(120 caps) - 4Weeks // 1 - 4 // 1 bottle 4x per day 120 caps.

Cortisol Control - Lean Extreme(90 caps) - 4Weeks // 3 - 7 // 1 bottle 3x per day 90 caps.

Aromatase Inhibitor - 6-OXO Extreme(60 caps) - 4Weeks // 4 - 7 // 2 bottles 4x per day 120 caps.

*******************
Here are my questions:
Is it useless to take AI Post Cycle Support since 6-oxo has everything it has and in addition, estrogen control? Should I save my AI Post Cycle Support or just go ahead and take it?

The more I hear about it the more likely i will not use an AI like 6-oxo. I do not want a rebound possibility, what do you guys think?

Is this too much or just right on, is there anything I can take out or would you add something in the place of another?
Click to expand...
**********************************************
I appreciate all of the great comments from anabolic innovation reps, but can you answer my questions? I already use your great product, no need to try to sell it to me. I use cycle support and post cycle support all the time. Please answer the following:

Here are my questions:
Is it useless to take AI Post Cycle Support since 6-oxo has everything it has and in addition, estrogen control? Should I save my AI Post Cycle Support or just go ahead and take it?

The more I hear about it the more likely i will not use an AI like 6-oxo. I do not want a rebound possibility, what do you guys think?

Is this too much or just right on, is there anything I can take out or would you add something in the place of another?[/
 
spshond said:
**********************************************
I appreciate all of the great comments from anabolic innovation reps, but can you answer my questions? I already use your great product, no need to try to sell it to me. I use cycle support and post cycle support all the time. Please answer the following:

Here are my questions:
Is it useless to take AI Post Cycle Support since 6-oxo has everything it has and in addition, estrogen control? Should I save my AI Post Cycle Support or just go ahead and take it?

The more I hear about it the more likely i will not use an AI like 6-oxo. I do not want a rebound possibility, what do you guys think?

Is this too much or just right on, is there anything I can take out or would you add something in the place of another?[/
Click to expand...

6-oxo extreme is overkill. If you read the first page of this post you would see that when you come off cycle your estrogen and test levels will be low. If you then further suppress estrogen your PCT will fail as you will not achieve homeostasis. IMO, an AI should not be taken until week 3-4 for this reason. Once estrogen levels have risen you can then safely stop the conversion of test to estrogen and taper the AI so that you let estrogen levels come back under control thusly preventing a chance of rebound.

Superdrol will induce prolactin and you will need something in your PCT to deal with that as well. Something like Vitex would be a good choice.

I posted a sample PCT for your cycle. Choose to use it or not ...
 
spshond said:
**********************************************
I appreciate all of the great comments from anabolic innovation reps, but can you answer my questions? I already use your great product, no need to try to sell it to me. I use cycle support and post cycle support all the time. Please answer the following:

Here are my questions:
Is it useless to take AI Post Cycle Support since 6-oxo has everything it has and in addition, estrogen control? Should I save my AI Post Cycle Support or just go ahead and take it?

The more I hear about it the more likely i will not use an AI like 6-oxo. I do not want a rebound possibility, what do you guys think?

Is this too much or just right on, is there anything I can take out or would you add something in the place of another?[/
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was responding on the fly and my comment was towards Alan1973...sorry about that...
 
Great Post, but I would have to disagree with the talk of DIM only being hyped by the people who make it. Indol-3-Carbinol is taking into the body and converts to 3,3'-diindoylmethane. Right now the goverment is very interested in all the positve aspects of this substance. We are talking of a substance that vast potential. I will agree that all research is not complete. But at far as a prospect it has alot of different potential. The below link is gov research.



Invalid Link Removed
 
When I used to pin I never received too much knowledge of PCT, but I was fortunate enough to have a medic give and tell me to take clomid. I am trying to figure out what is the best to take to keep gains out of clomid, nolva or torem???
Thanks in advance for any help
 
Toremifiene seems to be the most popular as of late. Nolva and clomid are earlier generation SERMS and have some sides associated with.

Does anybody know of any adverse sides associated with toremifene?
 
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