opioid pain killers

thebigt

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Oh for sure, there are people who are genetically predisposed to becoming addicts. The same way that somebody can be genetically predisposed to a disease and then an external trigger causes it. The general idea is still unchanged, but how it happens at a cellular and molecular level has become clearer.
the VA drug/alcohol rehab was very comprehensive...a lot of former addicts/alcoholics as counselors and board certified psychiatrists overseeing things, i was very lucky to have attended.
 
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Aleksandar37

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ad·dic·tion

/əˈdikSH(ə)n/

Learn to pronounce

noun

the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity.
Are you trying to dispute my first hand experience in addiction research with a copy/paste from an online dictionary lmao. Yes, addiction refers to somebody being addicted to something. Your definition of both versions of that word is incorrect, but please go on.
 
Aleksandar37

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thebigt

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Do you realize this isn't an article, but a letter to the editor? A majority of addiction researchers view addiction as a chronic disease. Even if it wasn't, your definition of what people can be addicted to is incorrect.
I was taught that addiction advances even if you are not using...if a addict or alcoholic stops using for 10 years they do not start where they left off 10 years ago but rather were they would be if they had continued to use during those 10 years...addiction is nasty business!!!
 
Aleksandar37

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the VA drug/alcohol rehab was very comprehensive...a lot of former addicts/alcoholics as counselors and board certified psychiatrists overseeing things, i was very lucky to have attended.
That's good to hear because I've also heard the other way where centers were under-staffed. It's important to have as many resources as possible, especially for veterans who might be using/drinking for a lot of reasons.
 
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Do you realize this isn't an article, but a letter to the editor? A majority of addiction researchers view addiction as a chronic disease. Even if it wasn't, your definition of what people can be addicted to is incorrect.
Or addiction is more broad than you would define.
 
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We can be mature and both post opposing views. There are people that are educated in that field that disagree with you, as I disagree with you. It isn't calling you stupid, it is not an attack against you, I just believe that addiction is not genetic, is not an illness, and there are PHDs that agree with me.
 
Aleksandar37

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I was taught that addiction advances even if you are not using...if a addict or alcoholic stops using for 10 years they do not start where they left off 10 years ago but rather were they would be if they had continued to use during those 10 years...addiction is nasty business!!!
I don't know if it's to the same degree, but there are certainly permanent changes that occur.
 
thebigt

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That's good to hear because I've also heard the other way where centers were under-staffed. It's important to have as many resources as possible, especially for veterans who might be using/drinking for a lot of reasons.
that was the best thing they did for Vietnam vets, I wasn't a Vietnam vet but the program was set up for nam vets and I was fortunate to get in while it was still in place...I will never forget my turn in the 'hot seat', they put you in a chair in the middle of a circle and rip you a new one--doubt they would be able to get away with that these days, but it truly did bring 'awareness' of a persons faults and bullshyt.
 
thebigt

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I don't know if it's to the same degree, but there are certainly permanent changes that occur.
by the grace of GOD, hopefully I will never have that experience!!!
 
Aleksandar37

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We can be mature and both post opposing views. There are people that are educated in that field that disagree with you, as I disagree with you. It isn't calling you stupid, it is not an attack against you, I just believe that addiction is not genetic, is not an illness, and there are PHDs that agree with me.
My PhD is in neuroscience. The chair of my thesis committee sat on the NIDA council. The fraud you're linking to has a PhD in social psychology and will be great for talking about peer pressure, but would not be qualified to speak on genetics. Here's his webpage where he sells his Dr. Oz-type crap https://peele.net/about/cv.html

You can disagree all day with me, but don't claim that your thoughts have any basis in science or medical fact because you googled and found a few hacks to agree with you. Again, the majority of the addiction research world believes there is a genetic component to addiction. It's been shown in countless peer-reviewed article, despite what your non-peer-reviewed books for profit examples are claiming.
 
Aleksandar37

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Or addiction is more broad than you would define.
I'm not defining it. I'm using the scientifically-proven definition that has been agreed on and reinforced with experiments and observations. You want us to rename the color red as blue because you found some moron on the internet that told you there was a conspiracy against the color blue.
 
HIT4ME

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Interesting thread. I get a kick out of all the marijuana and kratom people looking to replace opioids with their drug of choice. We have an opioid epidemic because of unsubstantiated claims being accepted as fact and now we are going to propose another solution that has a similar lack of science? I mean, at leasr morphine had like 2 centuries of use.

And yeah, kratom and marijuana is natural...but, ummm, yeah...so aren't opiates.

I also don't buy the "rotate strains to avoid addiction" theories. It makes no sense. If you are activating a receptor group, rotating the strains may have some benefit by mixing up which sub receptors get hit to what degree - but you are still going to have issues.

Addiction is complicated, that is for sure. And of course there would be a genetic component. We are machines that interact with our environmeny and our genes are the instruction manual for how to process information and run that machinery.

Interesting topic. Glad to hear the child is doing better. It sucks to see someone in pain, but I honestly would take as much pain as I could handle acutely before I personally used opioids.

The decision is tough though. My dad had a stroke in October and then severe internal bleeding in January while in recovery and on blood thinners. He was in BAD shape and I was still hesitant about the fentanyl...but if course it was a more appropriate use and I wasn't going to try to stop it. I will say, he had signs of use...call it addiction or not...even a week or two after and he was only on for a coupke days. He did get hit up pretty hard though with 150 mcg/hr.
 
HIT4ME

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Also, just so I don't come off as too anti-anything, I am more against the use of opioids the way they have been prescribed in the past 2 decades than the kratom alternative, but I am saying it is still not tested and proven and I am skeptical. There are some interesting studies coming out though on both sides.
 
Aleksandar37

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The decision is tough though. My dad had a stroke in October and then severe internal bleeding in January while in recovery and on blood thinners. He was in BAD shape and I was still hesitant about the fentanyl...but if course it was a more appropriate use and I wasn't going to try to stop it. I will say, he had signs of use...call it addiction or not...even a week or two after and he was only on for a coupke days. He did get hit up pretty hard though with 150 mcg/hr.
Sorry to hear about your dad. Fentanyl is a tough one as it can be effective if tightly monitored, but the potential for things going wrong are so high. I've heard too many stories of somebody being fine and then taking a xanax or having an extra glass of wine and they just never wake up again. I used to work for a pharma company in the manufacturing building and when it was time to make Actiq (raspberry fentanyl lollipops) that entire section was locked down. They didn't mess around because of safety and the potential for theft.
 
thebigt

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Interesting thread. I get a kick out of all the marijuana and kratom people looking to replace opioids with their drug of choice. We have an opioid epidemic because of unsubstantiated claims being accepted as fact and now we are going to propose another solution that has a similar lack of science? I mean, at leasr morphine had like 2 centuries of use.

And yeah, kratom and marijuana is natural...but, ummm, yeah...so aren't opiates.

I also don't buy the "rotate strains to avoid addiction" theories. It makes no sense. If you are activating a receptor group, rotating the strains may have some benefit by mixing up which sub receptors get hit to what degree - but you are still going to have issues.

Addiction is complicated, that is for sure. And of course there would be a genetic component. We are machines that interact with our environmeny and our genes are the instruction manual for how to process information and run that machinery.

Interesting topic. Glad to hear the child is doing better. It sucks to see someone in pain, but I honestly would take as much pain as I could handle acutely before I personally used opioids.

The decision is tough though. My dad had a stroke in October and then severe internal bleeding in January while in recovery and on blood thinners. He was in BAD shape and I was still hesitant about the fentanyl...but if course it was a more appropriate use and I wasn't going to try to stop it. I will say, he had signs of use...call it addiction or not...even a week or two after and he was only on for a coupke days. He did get hit up pretty hard though with 150 mcg/hr.
thanks, the child is making a full recovery-like most of us it could have been a knee jerk reaction to seeing a child in pain-I have to think no one wants that.


it is truly a thin line between treating pain and risk of addiction.

many years ago i had a doctors appointment and got a horrible migraine, the doctor sent me down to the ER and they gave me what must have been a massive dose of demerol...to this day i tell my wife how easy it would be for me to become addicted if I had access to Demerol, it was that good-and that scares the crap out of me.
 
HIT4ME

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Sorry to hear about your dad. Fentanyl is a tough one as it can be effective if tightly monitored, but the potential for things going wrong are so high. I've heard too many stories of somebody being fine and then taking a xanax or having an extra glass of wine and they just never wake up again. I used to work for a pharma company in the manufacturing building and when it was time to make Actiq (raspberry fentanyl lollipops) that entire section was locked down. They didn't mess around because of safety and the potential for theft.
Thanks - He is doing better. It was a harsh few months though. I did a ton of research on opioids because my grandmother was being prescribed oxy and fentanyl for pain and it kept escalating until she was unconcious and the doctors she has have been less than stellar. We got her taking agmatine and we have dramatically reduced her use to just 5 mg oxy a day now. It was an eye opener to realize there were NO studies showing these things work long term, and evidence opioids can actually induce hyperalgesia with long term use. For a while it was a big fight in the family because no one wanted her in pain and some members didn't want to eliminate pain killers and refused to see the truth.

It is funny though. Something I noticed with my grandmother on the opioids - she had a lack of self realization. Like she would say, "They won't let me walk" and the reality was she couldn't walk. No one was really stopping her beyond her inability and safety. But she didn't see the problem as being an inability - it was that people wouldn't let her.

After my dad got hit up with the fentanyl, the next day he was practically begging for it, and was talking like people wouldn't let him do stuff with no recognition that he was still paralyzed in half his nody and wouldn't have even been able to sit up on his own. I don't think people get how intense these things can be.
 
HIT4ME

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thanks, the child is making a full recovery-like most of us it could have been a knee jerk reaction to seeing a child in pain-I have to think no one wants that.


it is truly a thin line between treating pain and risk of addiction.

many years ago i had a doctors appointment and got a horrible migraine, the doctor sent me down to the ER and they gave me what must have been a massive dose of demerol...to this day i tell my wife how easy it would be for me to become addicted if I had access to Demerol, it was that good-and that scares the crap out of me.
Yeah, I get that seeing someone in pain, especially a child - you just want to stop it. The issue is knowing the trade offs. It sounds cold, but pain is always temporary. As you said, addiction can be forever.
 
thebigt

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Yeah, I get that seeing someone in pain, especially a child - you just want to stop it. The issue is knowing the trade offs. It sounds cold, but pain is always temporary. As you said, addiction can be forever.
yes, the word I was looking for when discussing with alek is progressive...not sure if this applies to drugs but alcoholism was described to me as being a progressive disease-I am grateful to GOD for every day of my sobriety.

tough love is 'tough', but for the best, glad your dad is better!!!
 
Aleksandar37

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Thanks - He is doing better. It was a harsh few months though. I did a ton of research on opioids because my grandmother was being prescribed oxy and fentanyl for pain and it kept escalating until she was unconcious and the doctors she has have been less than stellar. We got her taking agmatine and we have dramatically reduced her use to just 5 mg oxy a day now. It was an eye opener to realize there were NO studies showing these things work long term, and evidence opioids can actually induce hyperalgesia with long term use. For a while it was a big fight in the family because no one wanted her in pain and some members didn't want to eliminate pain killers and refused to see the truth.

It is funny though. Something I noticed with my grandmother on the opioids - she had a lack of self realization. Like she would say, "They won't let me walk" and the reality was she couldn't walk. No one was really stopping her beyond her inability and safety. But she didn't see the problem as being an inability - it was that people wouldn't let her.

After my dad got hit up with the fentanyl, the next day he was practically begging for it, and was talking like people wouldn't let him do stuff with no recognition that he was still paralyzed in half his nody and wouldn't have even been able to sit up on his own. I don't think people get how intense these things can be.
If you have another relative go on opioids, especially fentanyl, I highly recommend looking into having a dose of naloxone around. It's basically an opioid antidote that the caregiver would administer to the person who overdosed. Evzio is an automated one, sort of like a high-tech epi pen, but tends to be expensive and insurance won't always cover it. Narcan is the more common one, but sometimes requires a few steps to get the needle ready in moments that the caregiver is probably freaking out. There is still Narcan nasal spray too, but I don't like that route for emergencies when there might be something blocking their nasal passages.
 
HIT4ME

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If you have another relative go on opioids, especially fentanyl, I highly recommend looking into having a dose of naloxone around. It's basically an opioid antidote that the caregiver would administer to the person who overdosed. Evzio is an automated one, sort of like a high-tech epi pen, but tends to be expensive and insurance won't always cover it. Narcan is the more common one, but sometimes requires a few steps to get the needle ready in moments that the caregiver is probably freaking out. There is still Narcan nasal spray too, but I don't like that route for emergencies when there might be something blocking their nasal passages.
Definately good advice. Right now she takes 2.5 mg in the morning and 2.5 mg at night of oxycodone. A far cry from the 50 mcg fentanyl and 25 mg oxy she used to use. I feel the 5 mg is probably doing nothing helpful, but it keeps people happy that feel she needs something for the pain (which is low now as well because she doesn't walk).

I would almost say my opinion of fentanyl for the most part, outside of acute hospital use, is that it should only be used in cases where overdose doesn't require an antidote. (Tongue in cheek saying things like terminal cancer are a good use).
 
thebigt

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Definately good advice. Right now she takes 2.5 mg in the morning and 2.5 mg at night of oxycodone. A far cry from the 50 mcg fentanyl and 25 mg oxy she used to use. I feel the 5 mg is probably doing nothing helpful, but it keeps people happy that feel she needs something for the pain (which is low now as well because she doesn't walk).

I would almost say my opinion of fentanyl for the most part, outside of acute hospital use, is that it should only be used in cases where overdose doesn't require an antidote. (Tongue in cheek saying things like terminal cancer are a good use).
interesting you bring this up...as a Christian I struggle with the idea of a lengthy terminal illness where I am in pain and miserable and at the same time draining financial resources my family could use.
 
HIT4ME

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interesting you bring this up...as a Christian I struggle with the idea of a lengthy terminal illness where I am in pain and miserable and at the same time draining financial resources my family could use.
It is a tough call. People always say, "If I ever get like x, just pull the plug." And that is one thing to say when you are in better shape than X, but when you are finally in that position, your views may change.

Some people get depressed and want to die because of minor issues. Other people thrive in the face of serious issues.

You can want to give up at any point, it has nothing to do with a disease or loss of an ability. It is all mindset...But that is easy for me to say too ;)
 
The Matrix

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How about we use the term physical or chemical dependency then addict? You can have a dependency and not have an addiction. Sheesh. When you have to talk about addiction to a doctors patient when it’s truly a chemical or physical dependency due to the system making them a legally an “addicted” you have to have a little sympathy and tact. Especially when it is a young teenage because the dumb ass doctor did not discontinue the perscription when they should have. My wife is a medical professional and she sees this clinically all the time with opiates and benzos sadly.
 
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Matthersby

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How about we use the term physical or chemical dependency then addict? You can have a dependency and not have an addiction. Sheesh. When you have to talk about addiction to a doctors patient when it’s truly a chemical or physical dependency due to the system making them a legally an “addicted” you have to have a little sympathy and tact. Especially when it is a young teenage because the dumb ass doctor did not discontinue the perscription when they should have. My wife is a medical professional and she sees this clinically all the time with opiates and benzos sadly.
This is truth..
Any person can become physically addicted to something as addictive as opiates or even benzodiazepines. Doesn’t mean they are an addict.
I know this because off of your recommend, I had my DNA analyzed in 2013and interpreted by a clinical licensed nutritionist.
Someone who did not know my name or anything about me, other than 80 pages of raw genetic data, 700 miles away from me, looked at my genetic material and told me I’m an addict. There’s a huge difference between someone like me and someone that’s had 4 surgeries and an irresponsible doctor. HUGE.
 
thebigt

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This is truth..
Any person can become physically addicted to something as addictive as opiates or even benzodiazepines. Doesn’t mean they are an addict.
I know this because off of your recommend, I had my DNA analyzed in 2013and interpreted by a clinical licensed nutritionist.
Someone who did not know my name or anything about me, other than 80 pages of raw genetic data, 700 miles away from me, looked at my genetic material and told me I’m an addict. There’s a huge difference between someone like me and someone that’s had 4 surgeries and an irresponsible doctor. HUGE.
I think this is the point alek was making....
 
JamesLew88

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I agree that addiction is a disease. You can justify your addiction, but it's true. But there's a difference between addiction and sustain abuse. You can use drugs without been addicted to it (https://addictionresource.com/addiction/).
If you have 3 of these symptoms you're drug addicted :
-Experience of withdrawal symptoms
-Tolerance to the drug or alcohol
-Ignoring activities or obligations once loved
-Spending large amounts of time trying to obtain the drug, taking the drug, or recovering from using the drug
-Loss of self-control
-Using the drug, despite the negative consequences it causes
 
The Matrix

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This is truth..
Any person can become physically addicted to something as addictive as opiates or even benzodiazepines. Doesn’t mean they are an addict.
I know this because off of your recommend, I had my DNA analyzed in 2013and interpreted by a clinical licensed nutritionist.
Someone who did not know my name or anything about me, other than 80 pages of raw genetic data, 700 miles away from me, looked at my genetic material and told me I’m an addict. There’s a huge difference between someone like me and someone that’s had 4 surgeries and an irresponsible doctor. HUGE.
Who ever told you this based upon genetics was a complete moron. You never say that to a person ever. I have done several thousand genetic reports over the years and you respond saying “Due to your GAD and COMT expression there may be a higher probability of addiction with in the family history whether it be stress eating, gambling, drinking, drug use etc. It can also express as exercise addiction which the gym may be used as a form of therapy”
 
Matthersby

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Who ever told you this based upon genetics was a complete moron. You never say that to a person ever. I have done several thousand genetic reports over the years and you respond saying “Due to your GAD and COMT expression there may be a higher probability of addiction with in the family history whether it be stress eating, gambling, drinking, drug use etc. It can also express as exercise addiction which the gym may be used as a form of therapy”
That’s essentially and almost exactly what she said ^^ . I simply took it as that and was seriously impressed that that can even be seen in raw genetic data. But she was 100% correct regardless. Alcohol just happens to be my most destructive addiction, but it can always be seen in my behaviors whether it’s bodybuilding or diet soda. It’s just a genetic difference I clearly have.

Anyways, I’m not sure if I ever thanked you for your assistance in my pursuit of understanding my health better, so thanks again.
 
The Matrix

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I have found so many hidden patterns with in the genetic sequences that it spins doctor’s heads. I even have isolated how the govt can even use it to help identify you will have a higher risk of PSTD. This equates into which soldiers should be on the front line and who should not. The same mechanism also allows psychiatrics to know what type of treatment their patient needs to get the best outcome not wasting years of talk therapy that does jack shit because it’s not the conscious mind that’s not the issue but rather the subconscious. Would you talk Chinese to a German thinking they can understand it .. HELL No. I am way past genetics at this point and working at a whole other level of where science and spirituality are intersecting. Ayahuasca has more healing properties then we have ever imagine on many planes
 
thebigt

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I have found so many hidden patterns with in the genetic sequences that it spins doctor’s heads. I even have isolated how the govt can even use it to help identify you will have a higher risk of PSTD. This equates into which soldiers should be on the front line and who should not. The same mechanism also allows psychiatrics to know what type of treatment their patient needs to get the best outcome not wasting years of talk therapy that does jack shit because it’s not the conscious mind that’s not the issue but rather the subconscious. Would you talk Chinese to a German thinking they can understand it .. HELL No. I am way past genetics at this point and working at a whole other level of where science and spirituality are intersecting. Ayahuasca has more healing properties then we have ever imagine on many planes
PSTD?
 
Aleksandar37

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I am way past genetics at this point and working at a whole other level of where science and spirituality are intersecting. Ayahuasca has more healing properties then we have ever imagine on many planes
The land of make believe? Science and spirituality do not intersect.
 
The Matrix

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The land of make believe is now reality .What I said 12 years ago about epigenetics, mthfr methylation, liver detoxification, dysbiosis etc people thought I was crackpot and medical harassed.
Now it’s into mainstream medicine and has been medical validated practiced through the world. First of all you have no idea the research what is going on behind closed doors. It’s done that way for a reason. 3 of my colleagues I worked with are now dead, one of them their whole family was murder. My wife and I were schedule to spend a week with a good friend. 3 months before our meeting she mysteriously died. Is it the land of make belief? Only a closed mind will prevent one from expanding. Hand held lasers were once considered science fiction now they are fact
 
Aleksandar37

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The land of make believe is now reality .What I said 12 years ago about epigenetics, mthfr methylation, liver detoxification, dysbiosis etc people thought I was crackpot and medical harassed.
Now it’s into mainstream medicine and has been medical validated practiced through the world. First of all you have no idea the research what is going on behind closed doors. It’s done that way for a reason. 3 of my colleagues I worked with are now dead, one of them their whole family was murder. My wife and I were schedule to spend a week with a good friend. 3 months before our meeting she mysteriously died. Is it the land of make belief? Only a closed mind will prevent one from expanding. Hand held lasers were once considered science fiction now they are fact
Settle down, Jason Bourne. Epigenetics wasn't new 12 years ago. Dysbiosis has been understood for longer than that. MTHFR methylation is overblown by Dr Oz types and the liver does a perfectly fine job of detoxifying on its own unless the person has an underlying disorder. As for your little distraction there, none of what you listed has anything to do with spirituality.
 
Matthersby

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You guys have fun, there’s way too much condescending cuntiness in this thread.
Peace.
 

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