FDA sends a warning letter to MA sups over the opioid tianeptine in it's sups

[Standup]

fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm626270.htm

 

[Godstrength]

fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm626270.htm

Yeah thats why he had a blowout sale,sold it all and discontinued the product lol where ya been bro

 

[kisaj]

Wow, how surprising.

 

[Old Witch]

I suppose that’s what happens when you go putting relatively strong unscheduled opioids into stuff. A better option might have been kratom. At least that’s a whole herb. Looks a little less conspicuous. Though I mean the fda is so clueless sometimes I’m surprised they knew what tianeptine sodium even was.

 

[kisaj]

Oh, I went rounds with MA over this topic when it first came out. It was a joke how little he cared how the ingredient profile was questionable to say the least. I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did and people actually bought it.

 

[PoSiTiVeFLoW]

I suppose that’s what happens when you go putting relatively strong unscheduled opioids into stuff. A better option might have been kratom. At least that’s a whole herb. Looks a little less conspicuous. Though I mean the fda is so clueless sometimes I’m surprised they knew what tianeptine sodium even was.

Interesting, Wiki page on it describes it as an atypical antidepressant... Of the tricyclic class, like the flexiril I take for back muscles and sleep.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine

I am not a big opiate user, but interesting read here.

"Tianeptine has antidepressant and anxiolytic effects[15] with a relative lack of sedative, anticholinergic, and cardiovascular side effects.[6][13] It has been found to act as an atypical agonistof the μ-opioid receptor with clinically negligible effects on the δ- and κ-opioid receptors.[16]"

Approved for use in France, but not US of course...

 

[WesleyInman]

Oh, I went rounds with MA over this topic when it first came out. It was a joke how little he cared how the ingredient profile was questionable to say the least. I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did and people actually bought it.

There was nothing questionable about it at all. The product worked excellent. And as for the ingredients, everyone that bought it was urged to research and everyone here on the forum knew exactly what it is/was. There was zero hiding it, etc..

Likewise if someone wants to purchase Kratom same thing. FDA is constantly going after that, and there are certainly some mild risks for some people and certain population, but again...to each his own. Research it, and if you like it, and you want it buy it. No need to rain on other people's parade because of your specific morals/ethics towards a product.

 

[BigKrabbe]

There was nothing questionable about it at all. The product worked excellent. And as for the ingredients, everyone that bought it was urged to research and everyone here on the forum knew exactly what it is/was. There was zero hiding it, etc..

Likewise if someone wants to purchase Kratom same thing. FDA is constantly going after that, and there are certainly some mild risks for some people and certain population, but again...to each his own. Research it, and if you like it, and you want it buy it. No need to rain on other people's parade because of your specific morals/ethics towards a product.

Including known addictive ingredients is most definitely questionable unless you can justify creating addiction to make your product more popular.

 

[WesleyInman]

Including known addictive ingredients is most definitely questionable unless you can justify creating addiction to make your product more popular.

On that basis, then no pain meds, prescribed or not should exist. No kratom. No marijuana. No CBD. No Phenibut. Nothing with potential "addicitve" qualities. Supplements and Steroids can be psychologically addictive....so we should not have those. Nor should we have Psych meds and anti-depressants. I can't tell you how many of those I administered in the medical field, minus the patients being educated by their doctors, who then became physically reliant on those compounds.

 

[rascal14]

On that basis, then no pain meds, prescribed or not should exist. No kratom. No marijuana. No CBD. No Phenibut. Nothing with potential "addicitve" qualities. Supplements and Steroids can be psychologically addictive....so we should not have those. Nor should we have Psych meds and anti-depressants. I can't tell you how many of those I administered in the medical field, minus the patients being educated by their doctors, who then became physically reliant on those compounds.

Prescription is 100% different than a supplement a 15 year old kid can buy online. Marijuana and CBD are far from addictive. Kratom and Phenibut are the only mentioned things that are a relevant discussion.

 

[Jstrong20]

Sucks I never got around to trying it. Loved vicane though

 

[WesleyInman]

Prescription is 100% different than a supplement a 15 year old kid can buy online. Marijuana and CBD are far from addictive. Kratom and Phenibut are the only mentioned things that are a relevant discussion.

Explain to me how a 15 year old can purchase?

Could a 15 year old go into his parents medicine cabinet and take out a prescription and abuse it? What about Alcohol or cigarettes. Those are addictive. We shouldn't sell those to responsible people.

This whole argument is the same as people who think the Gov't knows what is best for them and that Controlling things will prevent them from occuring. Just like banning guns would prevent people from committing Gun Crimes right? See Chicago's stats.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

On that basis, then no pain meds, prescribed or not should exist. No kratom. No marijuana. No CBD. No Phenibut. Nothing with potential "addicitve" qualities. Supplements and Steroids can be psychologically addictive....so we should not have those. Nor should we have Psych meds and anti-depressants. I can't tell you how many of those I administered in the medical field, minus the patients being educated by their doctors, who then became physically reliant on those compounds.

I get the point you’re making, but “psychologically addicting” is quite different than PHYSIOLOGICALLY addicting. But I’m a libertarian, so you won’t find me in support of criminalizing much at all haha. It’s arguably safer for people to be able to buy drugs from legitimate sellers with assurance of potency and purity than to buy from their friendly neighborhood drug dealer and his gang of merry men. As long as you’re upfront and honest about the potential of the drug in question, that’s about as much as can be reasonably asked for.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Oh, I went rounds with MA over this topic when it first came out. It was a joke how little he cared how the ingredient profile was questionable to say the least. I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did and people actually bought it.

Questionbable in the sense it wasn't DSHEA compliant? Obviously.

Surprised how many people bought it? It's not surpring when people buy something that works awesome.

You said absolutely nothing in that thread I didn't already know...and many incorrect statement. Overall, things worked out even better than anticipated.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Including known addictive ingredients is most definitely questionable unless you can justify creating addiction to make your product more popular.

Do you want to know how many people had addiction issues with regular Vicaine? None. I can prove that...because I set things up before I started selling it to track all sales..and was prepared to pull the plug if I started seeing things go south (although I was 99% sure things would be fine). I know exactly who bought it, when they bought it, and how many they bought,.

No one, and I mean abslutely NO ONE bought Vicaine at a frequency or in the quantities necessary to become addicted...and I will dispute that with anyone who says otherwise. Just give me the name you ordered with and I will pull up all your purchase record from day one. Not one person has said they got addicted to regular Vicaine...not one. Not only did I give repeated warnings and provided a ton of info, but it contained stims in qauntities sufficient for preventing abuse/addiction.

So, I not only throughly educated people, but I formulated the product in a way that made addiction difficult.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Explain to me how a 15 year old can purchase?

Could a 15 year old go into his parents medicine cabinet and take out a prescription and abuse it? What about Alcohol or cigarettes. Those are addictive. We shouldn't sell those to responsible people.

This whole argument is the same as people who think the Gov't knows what is best for them and that Controlling things will prevent them from occuring. Just like banning guns would prevent people from committing Gun Crimes right? See Chicago's stats.

True.

Also, the fact that someone on a steroid board would judge anyone about what they choose to consume is beyond my comprehension. Everyone on this board that uses AAS is actually breaking the law by purchasing a controlled substance, while nothing in Vicaine was a controlled substance. Yet, you won't see these people criticizing UGL's or the people that use their products. Instead, they like to belittle me/ MA labs for selling Vicaine.

Some people just like to bitch...and 99% of the time, the people doing the bitching are the ones who are resentful as a result of past interactions (and therefore hold grudges). This is why these people tend to only comment on negative threads/posts about MA Labs, but they are silent when it comes to anything positive about the company.

 

[Standup]

Yeah thats why he had a blowout sale,sold it all and discontinued the product lol where ya been bro

Wish I bought some before. Canada actually I like to ditch my tech for a weekend and go mountain climbing.

Keep it mind aton of companies still sell tianeptine they just don't label it as a supplement. Zack attack has decent quality.

 

[meatneck71]

I was reading a bunch of articles on Mike's Vicaine after it was banned and I found it interesting that the government didn't go after what was technically IN vicaine, they went after him based on his wording of the product. Pro Opioid / Hedonic etc. They went after him because people who abuse opiates will buy the product based on that. It's true that Vicaine isn't technically addictive, but if it was available, I'd sure keep on purchasing it every 2-3 months. It was a bit pricey for my taste, and I didn't realize it until I started sourcing the ingredients found in vicaine. I've made my own version that I can take in 1 capsule which works effectively like taking 2 of vicaine. The best thing about vicaine was it was super great for workouts in the morning. 2 hour workouts flew right by with intensive training.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I was reading a bunch of articles on Mike's Vicaine after it was banned and I found it interesting that the government didn't go after what was technically IN vicaine, they went after him based on his wording of the product. Pro Opioid / Hedonic etc. They went after him because people who abuse opiates will buy the product based on that. It's true that Vicaine isn't technically addictive, but if it was available, I'd sure keep on purchasing it every 2-3 months. It was a bit pricey for my taste, and I didn't realize it until I started sourcing the ingredients found in vicaine. I've made my own version that I can take in 1 capsule which works effectively like taking 2 of vicaine. The best thing about vicaine was it was super great for workouts in the morning. 2 hour workouts flew right by with intensive training.

This is not entirely true. If you read the entire letter, you’d see that the FDA said that even if those claims were not made, the inclusion of tianeptine would still make the product considered “adulterated” in their terminology. Most places still selling tianeptine sell it for “research purposes” for their “lab rats” lol.

 

[meatneck71]

I read it again and yes you are correct, but it still seemed that they went after him because of his wording - that sort of red flagged it and then went after the ingredients. The places that I have found tia ready to sell aren't research companies at all, so I think it's just how you go about your customer base. Regardless, vicaine was one hell of a product. Top notch on that one.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I read it again and yes you are correct, but it still seemed that they went after him because of his wording - that sort of red flagged it and then went after the ingredients. The places that I have found tia ready to sell aren't research companies at all, so I think it's just how you go about your customer base. Regardless, vicaine was one hell of a product. Top notch on that one.

He has brought up a point that someone who will abuse tianeptine is more likely to do so using a standalone product than this blend, which is a fair point I suppose. The name is a portmanteau of Vicodin and Cocaine IIRC, so it’s probably not a surprise it got someone’s attention who had access to the “ban hammer.” I’m also not saying only/mostly research companies sell it, but if you look at most of them, they’ll say “not for human consumption” somewhere on the product, even if most of what they sell are intended for human consumption.

 

[De__eB]

I remember when I warned mike arnold privately about this product days after it was released.

I wonder if the people who submitted the adverse event reports from this product to the FDA know that people advised you your product was dangerous and you sold it anyway.

 

[Standup]

I remember when I warned mike arnold privately about this product days after it was released.

I wonder if the people who submitted the adverse event reports from this product to the FDA know that people advised you your product was dangerous and you sold it anyway.

Life is inherently dangerous but his product could have been safely used. Hell people sell peanuts even though it kills 100s a year. It's a matter of prospective.

 

[justhere4comm]

Life is inherently dangerous but his product could have been safely used. Hell people sell peanuts even though it kills 100s a year. It's a matter of prospective.

F*cking peanut sellers. I hate'm! Ba#tards.

 

[rtmilburn]

I get the point you’re making, but “psychologically addicting” is quite different than PHYSIOLOGICALLY addicting. But I’m a libertarian, so you won’t find me in support of criminalizing much at all haha. It’s arguably safer for people to be able to buy drugs from legitimate sellers with assurance of potency and purity than to buy from their friendly neighborhood drug dealer and his gang of merry men. As long as you’re upfront and honest about the potential of the drug in question, that’s about as much as can be reasonably asked for.

Which is exactly what he did. Also anyone he used the product, knew it was like not quite like opioids. It had a mild buzz to it and made you feel alright. However, it definitely didn't have no opioid euphoria. I actually really enjoyed it. It subtlety relaxing and stimulating. It was perfect the occasionally "fuk it" day where you just didn't want to go to work, but you had to. Also the bottle was very clear on dosing and frequency of use.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Which is exactly what he did. Also anyone he used the product, knew it was like opioids at all. It had a mild buzz to it and made you feel alright. However, it definitely didn't have no opioid euphoria. I actually really enjoyed it. It subtlety relaxing and stimulating. It was perfect the occasionally "fuk it" day where you just didn't want to go to work, but you had to. Also the bottle was very clear on dosing and frequency of use.

The name was a portmanteau of “VICodin” and “CocAINE,” I don’t think he was trying to hide anything lol. But I’m not surprised its time has come; there’s no questioning it’s not compliant and this would happen eventually, no matter what he said or how the explained it.

 

[rtmilburn]

The name was a portmanteau of “VICodin” and “CocAINE,” I don’t think he was trying to hide anything lol. But I’m not surprised its time has come; there’s no questioning it’s not compliant and this would happen eventually, no matter what he said or how the explained it.

Agreed

 

[rtmilburn]

Mike Arnold it may be time to bring out a non-tianeptine based euphorigenic product. Kinda like the one I PMed you about? Probably need to change names on the Supplement, and be more vague about "human" usage.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Mike Arnold it may be time to bring out a non-tianeptine based euphorigenic product. Kinda like the one I PMed you about? Probably need to change names on the Supplement, and be more vague about "human" usage.

Is your lab rat feeling depressed? Buy this experimental euphoria-inducing blend for your rat today!

 

[rtmilburn]

Is your lab rat feeling depressed? Buy this experimental euphoria-inducing blend for your rat today!

Hahahaha kind of. But we discussed something that would actually be beneficial for depression, rather than harmful, in the long run. I would like to say more, but don't want to ruin it if he does decide to bring it to the market. You would totally understand what I mean if you saw the profile

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Hahahaha kind of. But we discussed something that would actually be beneficial for depression, rather than harmful, in the long run. I would like to say more but don't want to ruin it if he does decide to bring it to the market. You would totally understand what I mean if you say the profile

Oh, I’m not saying it couldn’t be useful and probably safer than a ton of things people use without thinking twice about, but it’d be for your depressed lab rat, not for your personal use, of course.

 

[rtmilburn]

Haha true! Like one the ingredients has shown to increase D2 receptor density in the pre-frontal cortex, as well as striatum. The rest of them are to accentuate this ingredient!

 

[jarrellt67]

Haha true! Like one the ingredients has shown to increase D2 receptor density in the pre-frontal cortex, as well as striatum. The rest of them are to accentuate this ingredient!

Dang it! Now you got me really curious about the formula. SWIM and my lab rat could definitely use something that helps with depression.

 

[rtmilburn]

Dang it! Now you got me really curious about the formula. SWIM and my lab rat could definitely use something that helps with depression.

Don't get me wrong this will not a ground breaking by any means. It won't be a "cure" or anything like that. It's not even design to help depression, but it MIGHT help. Also all of the ingredients are stuff that's been used. Just a unique way of putting them together. It will be more a clear headed, mild, stim that should provide a decent— yet mild— euphoria.

 

[jarrellt67]

I'm good with "might" and "maybe"...

 

[rtmilburn]

View attachment 178223

I'm good with "might" and "maybe"...

Although I am working on a "mood" supplement myself. R&D is a long process, and it probably won't be cheap when I bring it out. As the raws—at these dosages— are expensive. Also debating on making 100% DSHEA compliant or not. It should work while being complaint; however, it won't hit a few pathways that I think will really aid in this product being successful. Also depression is a complex thing, with sooooo many pathways involved.

 

[jarrellt67]

Although I am working on a "mood" supplement myself. R&D is a long process, and it probably won't be cheap when I bring it out. As the raws—at these dosages— are expensive. Also debating on making 100% DSHEA compliant or not. It should work while being complaint; however, it won't hit a few pathways that I think will really aid in this product being successful. Also depression is a complex thing, with sooooo many pathways involved.

Awesome! I look forward to seeing what you come out with. Currently I'm just trialing bromantane (along with low doses of a thai kratom and blue lotus blend) but am always interested in new/unique products that come out for mood improvements.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Although I am working on a "mood" supplement myself. R&D is a long process, and it probably won't be cheap when I bring it out. As the raws—at these dosages— are expensive. Also debating on making 100% DSHEA compliant or not. It should work while being complaint; however, it won't hit a few pathways that I think will really aid in this product being successful. Also depression is a complex thing, with sooooo many pathways involved.

You’re working with a company, have your own company, or are starting your own company?

 

[rtmilburn]

Awesome! I look forward to seeing what you come out with. Currently I'm just trialing bromantane (along with low doses of a thai kratom and blue lotus blend) but am always interested in new/unique products that come out for mood improvements.

I am a HUGE fan of bromantane, blue lotus, kanna, large doses of L-theanine, D,L-phenylalanine, and more .

Definitely don't recommend kratom, other than on a seldom occasion.

But seriously bromantane is the shít!!!

 

[jarrellt67]

I am a HUGE fan of bromantane, blue lotus, kanna, large doses of L-theanine, D,L-phenylalanine, and more .

Definitely don't recommend kratom, other than on a seldom occasion.

But seriously bromantane is the shít!!!

I just started the bromantane yesterday. So, don't really have any thoughts on it yet. Starting with just one 50 mg capsule in the morning. What kind of dosing schedule did you use for bromantane?

 

[rtmilburn]

You’re working with a company, have your own company, or are starting your own company?

Starting my own, and it's not a cheap endeavor. Especially since I am going to college, and paying for it on my on dime.

 

[rtmilburn]

I just started the bromantane yesterday. So, don't really have any thoughts on it yet. Starting with just one 50 mg capsule in the morning. What kind of dosing schedule did you use for bromantane?

There are so many different theories on proper dosing bromantane. I'm in the camp of 150mg e3d for 3 months, than a break for 3 months and repeat.

 

[MedRat]

Tiameptine is an old Selective serotonin reuptake enhancer. Ive taken it many times when pain reaches very high levels. I try to avoid it as it makes me anxious and I have terrible itching for a few hours. I wouldn't even bother with tiameptine again.

Is it addictive? I have no idea. Over the years Ive been put on painkillers for extended time periods. I dont want to be on them again if I can help it. This opiod crisis seems to have a big genetic component. Ive never been addicted to opiods.

 

[_Endure_]

Starting my own, and it's not a cheap endeavor. Especially since I am going to college, and paying for it on my on dime.

Looking forward to the product hopefully seeing the light of day sooner than later. Sounds like a good one.

 

[Ricky10]

I am a HUGE fan of bromantane, blue lotus, kanna, large doses of L-theanine, D,L-phenylalanine, and more .

Definitely don't recommend kratom, other than on a seldom occasion.

But seriously bromantane is the shít!!!

Sounds nice! You know I would be a customer!

On another note, I hope we see a Vicaine successor by Mike as well that hits at least some of the same pathways as Vicaine did. A long lasting euphoric nootropic type supplement is all I’m really looking for. I don’t particularly need the opioid effects that Vicaine offered. There are so many pathways that can be tapped into through different means. I know Mike can do it with a more compliant formula, and I look forward to you hopefully achieving the same!

 

[rtmilburn]

Sounds nice! You know I would be a customer!

On another note, I hope we see a Vicaine successor by Mike as well that hits at least some of the same pathways as Vicaine did. A long lasting euphoric nootropic type supplement is all I’m really looking for. I don’t particularly need the opioid effects that Vicaine offered. There are so many pathways that can be tapped into through different means. I know Mike can do it with a more compliant formula, and I look forward to you hopefully achieving the same!

That is exactly what me and Mike Arnold discussed, in our PMs, about. I think it's something most of you guys would LOVE!

 

[De__eB]

Life is inherently dangerous but his product could have been safely used. Hell people sell peanuts even though it kills 100s a year. It's a matter of prospective.

Lots of things can be safely used.

Consumers are broadly speaking not literate on subject matter like this.

Marketing products like this is reckless and irresponsible. And it makes the entire industry look bad and face more scrutiny.

I've got a FOIA request in for the AERS data that led to the FDA investigation, it might be a while though due to government shutdown.

 

[De__eB]

Bromantane would also be illegal to market in a dietary supplement for human consumption.

Also, given that it plausibly increases your risk of Alzheimer's. Taking it seems foolish.

 

[jarrellt67]

There are so many different theories on proper dosing bromantane. I'm in the camp of 150mg e3d for 3 months, than a break for 3 months and repeat.

Does 150 mg e3d for 3 months mean you took 150 mg every 3 days for 3 months...or something else (never seen that abbreviation before and a quick google search didn't turn anything up)? Also, anything you'd recommend that goes well with it? I'm thinking maybe agmatine since it goes well with just about everything (including antidepressants).

 

[jarrellt67]

I am a HUGE fan of bromantane, blue lotus, kanna, large doses of L-theanine, D,L-phenylalanine, and more .

Definitely don't recommend kratom, other than on a seldom occasion.

But seriously bromantane is the shít!!!

What do you consider a large dose of L-Theanine? I usually take only 200 mg since it's very sedating. However, a few nights ago I tried 600 mg thinking it would knock me out. I was wrong, for some reason the larger dose was very stimulating and kept me up most of the night. Haven't tried it again since.