FDA sends a warning letter to MA sups over the opioid tianeptine in it's sups

[rtmilburn]

Does 150 mg e3d for 3 months mean you took 150 mg every 3 days for 3 months...or something else (never seen that abbreviation before and a quick google search didn't turn anything up)? Also, anything you'd recommend that goes well with it? I'm thinking maybe agmatine since it goes well with just about everything (including antidepressants).

Yes, e3d is everything third day. Yes agmatines amazing, with its ability to modulate glutamate. However, I believe the doses we use in bodybuildering is not quite high enough, at least to reach optimal amount of modulation.

Magnesium threonate, does the same as well as other benefits.

I really believe overactive glutamate is under estimated in it's role in depression.

Also let's keep this thread on track. Anymore questions PM me instead.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

What do you consider a large dose of L-Theanine? I usually take only 200 mg since it's very sedating. However, a few nights ago I tried 600 mg thinking it would knock me out. I was wrong, for some reason the larger dose was very stimulating and kept me up most of the night. Haven't tried it again since.

Theanine isn’t generally sedating. It’s more calming/relaxing than anything really. Generally 100-200mg is considered pretty low-dose. I’d consider 400+ to be higher-dose.

 

[rtmilburn]

Theanine isn’t generally sedating. It’s more calming/relaxing than anything really. Generally 100-200mg is considered pretty low-dose. I’d consider 400+ to be higher-dose.

I'm talking doses not in mgs. Problems is it can give you a weird, I don't want to do anything, headspace. However, this can be meditated, and actually can be used to make very motivated attitude, just have to know what to stack it with.

 

[Outofbody]

Bromantane would also be illegal to market in a dietary supplement for human consumption.

Also, given that it plausibly increases your risk of Alzheimer's. Taking it seems foolish.

Agreed. Bromantane's risk potential is far too great. I wouldn't mess with it at all. When something seems too good to be true, well, it usually is.

 

[rtmilburn]

Bromantane would also be illegal to market in a dietary supplement for human consumption.

Also, given that it plausibly increases your risk of Alzheimer's. Taking it seems foolish.

Exactly don't market it as for human consumption. Bromantane is one of the ingredients that is delaying my R&D. Heavily debating it's use, also digging deeper in research and had to hire a Russian translater. Not mention it's long half-life would fuk with the timing of others.

Also it's correlation with Alzheimer's is pretty weak. It's weaker than Adderall and Alzheimer's, which is considered insignificant. However, there is not enough research to make a decision.

 

[De__eB]

Exactly don't market it as for human consumption. Bromantane is one of the ingredients that is delaying my R&D. Heavily debating it's use, also digging deeper in research and had to hire a Russian translater. Not mention it's long half-life would fuk with the timing of others.

Also it's correlation with Alzheimer's is pretty weak. It's weaker than Adderall and Alzheimer's, which is considered insignificant. However, there is not enough research to make a decision.

I think there's enough research to support NOT taking it for enhancement purposes.

The acceptable risk profile for treating disease vs. Nonmedical supplementation is completely different.

Also it's entirely synthetic, and isnt a metabolite of a valid ingredient so it's never going to be a legal ingredient for human supplementation marketing.

 

[rtmilburn]

I think there's enough research to support NOT taking it for enhancement purposes.

The acceptable risk profile for treating disease vs. Nonmedical supplementation is completely different.

Also it's entirely synthetic, and isnt a metabolite of a valid ingredient so it's never going to be a legal ingredient for human supplementation marketing.

Totally understand that is will never be legal, for human consumption. To make a product with bromantane, it would have to sold as a research chemical. As for it's risk potential is based off one study, that is often misinterpreted. While I'm not saying the risk isn't there, but rather it is still HIGHLY speculative one way or the other.

 

[De__eB]

Totally understand that is will never be legal, for human consumption. To make a product with bromantane, it would have to sold as a research chemical. As for it's risk potential is based off one study, that is often misinterpreted. While I'm not saying the risk isn't there, but rather it is still HIGHLY speculative one way or the other.

Contrary to popular belief, putting "not for human consumption" does not indemnify sellers from responsibility for products when they doscuss their obviously human intended uses.

 

[rtmilburn]

Contrary to popular belief, putting "not for human consumption" does not indemnify sellers from responsibility for products when they doscuss their obviously human intended uses.

I understand this! You are not telling me anything new

 

[rtmilburn]

De__eB I encourage you to read this study on β-amyloid precursor proteins

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4314671/

They are not 100% a bad guy. They only become a problem when the can't be cleared.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I'm talking doses not in mgs. Problems is it can give you a weird, I don't want to do anything, headspace. However, this can be meditated, and actually can be used to make very motivated attitude, just have to know what to stack it with.

Yeah, that’s pretty much the whole idea behind caffeine and theanine. I haven’t tried mega-dosing theanine though, as I never found the need. I find that bacopa with stimulants is similar too, where it may be calming alone, and people say it can hurt their motivation, but throw in some stims and it’ll be good for most people.

 

[rtmilburn]

Yeah, that’s pretty much the whole idea behind caffeine and theanine. I haven’t tried mega-dosing theanine though, as I never found the need. I find that bacopa with stimulants is similar too, where it may be calming alone, and people say it can hurt their motivation, but throw in some stims and it’ll be good for most people.

Well I actually find caffeine to make it worse, when mega-dosing. However, it's actually a pretty easy fix. Nothing someone smart like you wouldn't figure with time.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Well I actually find caffeine to make it worse, when mega-dosing. However, it's actually a pretty easy fix. Nothing someone smart like you wouldn't figure with time.

Props to you for experimenting with mega dosing and unorthodox uses. I’ll just stick to my plain-Jane caffeine+theanine+ornithine for daily use lol. But it sounds like you’re aiming for something different than just daily energy here, where the theanine is more of a major player with other things to balance it out as opposed to its normal role as the support to stimulants.

 

[rtmilburn]

Props to you for experimenting with mega dosing and unorthodox uses. I’ll just stick to my plain-Jane caffeine+theanine+ornithine for daily use lol. But it sounds like you’re aiming for something different than just daily energy here, where the theanine is more of a major player with other things to balance it out as opposed to its normal role as the support to stimulants.

Haha kind of. I'm aiming for something the can reliably mediate depression in MOST people.

This is a hard goal and takes tackling the issue from many different angles.

Balancing neurotransmitters is a delicate game, and usually takes counter balancing. Like the case with theanine, it's does exactly what I want it to do. However, it comes with is another set of things to address with other supplements. Doing over and over, until I get an end product I'm satisfied with, that also drastically increase BDNF! As you may get temporary benefits out of something, but without creating new neural pathways the whole point is mute. As you will eventually route back into old ways of thinking

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Haha kind of. I'm aiming for something the can reliably mediate depression in MOST people.

This is a hard goal and takes tackling the issue from many different angles.

Balancing neurotransmitters is a delicate game, and usually takes counter balancing. Like the case with theanine, it's does exactly what I want it to do. However, it comes with is another set of things to address with other supplements. Doing over and over, until I get an end product I'm satisfied with, that also drastically increase BDNF! As you may get temporary benefits out of something, but without creating new neural pathways the whole point is mute. As you will eventually route back into old ways of thinking

Just make sure you never claim it is intended to or can help/treat depression on the label or anything of course. And I’m sure your increasing BDNF will be more than just throwing in some lion’s mane and calling it a day haha, although lion’s mane has been shown to help with depression, so I wouldn’t say it’d be a bad inclusion by any means. I’ll be following along.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Haha true! Like one the ingredients has shown to increase D2 receptor density in the pre-frontal cortex, as well as striatum. The rest of them are to accentuate this ingredient!

I hope you have a lot of human data on this because I'll warn you right now that this could lead to psychosis in users, both creating psychosis and exacerbating people with existing or borderline psychotic disorders. This is a dangerous area to not be 100% sure in.

 

[rtmilburn]

I hope you have a lot of human data on this because I'll warn you right now that this could lead to psychosis in users, both creating psychosis and exacerbating people with existing or borderline psychotic disorders. This is a dangerous area to not be 100% sure in.

Some human data, not a ton though. However, there are shít tons of anecdotal reports ranging from 1 time use to 10 years of use. I think it pretty safe to say that pyschosis is highly unlikely here. However, there are other risk factor with this, but they are speculative at best.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I hope you have a lot of human data on this because I'll warn you right now that this could lead to psychosis in users, both creating psychosis and exacerbating people with existing or borderline psychotic disorders. This is a dangerous area to not be 100% sure in.

Is it this?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3137606/
Because I don’t think this is the best thing to use long term, and also not the a good thing for people to try to self-medicate with, or even just use OTC. So I hope it’s not this. It’s just the first thing that came to mind for the specified claims lol.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Some human data, not a ton though. However, there are shít tons of anecdotal reports ranging from 1 time use to 10 years of use. I think it pretty safe to say that pyschosis is highly unlikely here. However, there are other risk factor with this, but they are speculative at best.

What are you basing your statement about safety and "highly unlikely" psychosis on? There is nothing speculative about the role of D2 receptors in psychosis, specifically in regard to PFC and striatum.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Is it this?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3137606/
Because I don’t think this is the best thing to use long term, and also not the a good thing for people to try to self-medicate with, or even just use OTC. So I hope it’s not this. It’s just the first thing that came to mind for the specified claims lol.

Lol, haloperidol? No, I don't think anybody would be selling that as a supplement, yet I guess nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Lol, haloperidol? No, I don't think anybody would be selling that as a supplement, yet I guess nothing surprises me anymore.

It does/did word for word what he claimed his mystery ingredient does, no?

 

[Aleksandar37]

It does/did word for word what he claimed his mystery ingredient does, no?

Correct, but so do most antipsychotics with chronic use.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Correct, but so do most antipsychotics with chronic use.

Yeah, which is why I’m saying that something that is apparently going to be used in an OTC “supplement,” even if it’s not compliant or “for human use” that does these things is throwing up a red flag for me. I don’t know if OTC antipsychotics is the best idea lol.

 

[rtmilburn]

What are you basing your statement about safety and "highly unlikely" psychosis on? There is nothing speculative about the role of D2 receptors in psychosis, specifically in regard to PFC and striatum.

I'm saying with this one particular supplement, it highly unlikely to cause to psychosis. Also the it's ability to actually increase D2 in pfc and stratium is anything from proven with this supplement. I'm not saying the messing with D2 receptor density won't cause psychosis.

 

[rtmilburn]

It does/did word for word what he claimed his mystery ingredient does, no?

Definitely not what I was talking about. Haha

 

[rtmilburn]

Just make sure you never claim it is intended to or can help/treat depression on the label or anything of course. And I’m sure your increasing BDNF will be more than just throwing in some lion’s mane and calling it a day haha, although lion’s mane has been shown to help with depression, so I wouldn’t say it’d be a bad inclusion by any means. I’ll be following along.

Yep it would be marketed as a mood supplement and that's it haha

 

[Aleksandar37]

I'm saying with this one particular supplement, it highly unlikely to cause to psychosis. Also the it's ability to actually increase D2 in pfc and stratium is anything from proven with this supplement. I'm not saying the messing with D2 receptor density won't cause psychosis.

Ok, well curious to read up on it if/when it gets released.

 

[rtmilburn]

Ok, well curious to read up on it if/when it gets released.

I'll pm you what I'm talking about, you'll totally understand what I mean once you know.

 

[De__eB]

You keep using the word supplement.

The FDA has can and will use that against you later whe you try and say it wasnt for human consumption the first time someone has a psychotic episode whether they were dosing correctly or using the product despite a warning label telling them not to for drug interaction purposes.

If you want to experiment yourself...do it...if you want your own private buyers club/group buy...do it...

But the ingredients you're talking about selling will not end well for anyone but the lawyers

 

[rtmilburn]

You keep using the word supplement.

The FDA has can and will use that against you later whe you try and say it wasnt for human consumption the first time someone has a psychotic episode whether they were dosing correctly or using the product despite a warning label telling them not to for drug interaction purposes.

If you want to experiment yourself...do it...if you want your own private buyers club/group buy...do it...

But the ingredients you're talking about selling will not end well for anyone but the lawyers

Ugh. Stop being a tool, I know all of this. Also with the supplement I am developing myself will more than likely be 100% DSHEA compliant. Now go preach your bullsh!t to someone else.

 

[De__eB]

Posting that in a thread where exactly what I predicted would happen ended up happening and people were hurt is pretty ironic.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Posting that in a thread where exactly what I predicted would happen ended up happening and people were hurt is pretty ironic.

I’m not actually commenting on the topic, just making some humor, but...

Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Research Chem the Wise?

I think of that “ironic” meme every time someone says ironic.

 

[rtmilburn]

Posting that in a thread where exactly what I predicted would happen ended up happening and people were hurt is pretty ironic.

Look I'm not selling anything any time soon, i will be selling a DSHEA compliant supp, and even then won't be marketing it for anything. Hell I even plan on funding an efficiency study on it too, this may actually be the cheap part. Reasoning for it being cheap to fund this study, as I'll run it through the university. It would be a study that's a part of my degree.

 

[De__eB]

Look I'm not selling anything any time soon, i will be selling a DSHEA compliant supp, and even then won't be marketing it for anything. Hell I even plan on funding an efficiency study on it too, this may actually be the cheap part. Reasoning for it being cheap to fund this study, as I run it through the university. It would be a study that's a part of my degree.

I genuinely hope that's all true and wish you good luck with your endeavours and it's really nothing personal.

I'm just a grumpy old cynic whose seen some ****.

 

[rtmilburn]

I’m not actually commenting on the topic, just making some humor, but...

Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Research Chem the Wise?

I think of that “ironic” meme every time someone says ironic.

God I love starwars. Glad I found a fellow nerd

 

[muscleupcrohn]

God I love starwars. Glad I found a fellow nerd

I have KOTOR on my phone lol. I'm a huge nerd.

 

[rtmilburn]

I have KOTOR on my phone lol. I'm a huge nerd.

Haha yes. Do you ever respond to "Hello there" with "General Kenobi"? I definitely do haha

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Haha yes. Do you ever respond to "Hello there" with "General Kenobi"? I definitely do haha

That GIF has been my go-to opener on Tinder when someone has no actual info for me to go on lol.

 

[rtmilburn]

That GIF has been my go-to opener on Tinder when someone has no actual info for me to go on lol.

Hahaha same!!! It actually work quite well too.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Hahaha same!!! It actually work quite well too.

And if they don’t know what it’s from they’re too young and/or not very cultured, so it’s a good filter haha.

 

[rtmilburn]

And if they don’t know what it’s from they’re too young and/or not very cultured, so it’s a good filter haha.

Yep or they just find it funny and are down for a quick hookup. So it's a win win.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I remember when I warned mike arnold privately about this product days after it was released.

I wonder if the people who submitted the adverse event reports from this product to the FDA know that people advised you your product was dangerous and you sold it anyway.

...except for the fact it wasn't dangerous. Np one was ever harmed, so stop slandering me and my company or I will seek assistance from the adminstrator. I don't think he would take too kindly to lies being posted about sponsors, especially lies of such a serious nature.

Half the pre-workout supps you probably chug on a dialy basis are technically more "dangerous" tham Vicaine ever was, as many of them are loaded to the hilt with powerful stims that increase both BP and heart rate. They can easily exacerbate a cardiovascular health condition leading to heart attack and/or stroke.

Perhaps you should go tell those 1,000+ companies how dangerous their proucts are. It would have been better advice.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike Arnold it may be time to bring out a non-tianeptine based euphorigenic product. Kinda like the one I PMed you about? Probably need to change names on the Supplement, and be more vague about "human" usage.

Oh, I'm going to. Already working on two of them.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Sounds nice! You know I would be a customer!

On another note, I hope we see a Vicaine successor by Mike as well that hits at least some of the same pathways as Vicaine did. A long lasting euphoric nootropic type supplement is all I’m really looking for. I don’t particularly need the opioid effects that Vicaine offered. There are so many pathways that can be tapped into through different means. I know Mike can do it with a more compliant formula, and I look forward to you hopefully achieving the same!

I think you will be quite happy when it is released. I am workimng on two...actually three...novelty, feel-good products; all with drastically differnet effects.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Bromantane would also be illegal to market in a dietary supplement for human consumption.

Also, given that it plausibly increases your risk of Alzheimer's. Taking it seems foolish.

Keep going...and soon, no one will like you. If you care that much about DSHEA complaince, go work for the FDA. I can tell you this, the FDA employees I've spoken with are a LOT more lax than you...and don't generally care about involving themselves in the business of others unless they are told to. Basically, they are decent people...and they sure don't spend time pulling FDA reports from cases that are already over. You seem to be awully interested in a product that isn't even sold anymore.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Ugh. Stop being a tool, I know all of this. Also with the supplement I am developing myself will more than likely be 100% DSHEA compliant. Now go preach your bullsh!t to someone else.

Ditto on that!

 

[Mike Arnold]

Posting that in a thread where exactly what I predicted would happen ended up happening and people were hurt is pretty ironic.

What you predicted would happen? EVERYONE knew it would eventually happen, myself included.

People were harmed? Who? No one was hurt.

You are acting like you predicted the winning lottery number. "Predicting" something that is guaranteed to eventually happen (sooner rather than later) doesn't take too much smarts....and as for your "people were hurt" comment, I don't have a clue where that came from.

 

[VaughnTrue]

just seeing this now.


LOL is all I can say.


I was on here stating how Vicaine was CLEARLY an illegal dietary supplement and tons of people and the company themselves were telling me I was wrong.


hahahahaha

 

[muscleupcrohn]

just seeing this now.


LOL is all I can say.


I was on here stating how Vicaine was CLEARLY an illegal dietary supplement and tons of people and the company themselves were telling me I was wrong.


hahahahaha

How could anyone have said it was compliant? People could have argued about how long it’d be before/if it was caught/removed from the market, or claim it wasn’t dangerous, but saying it was compliant?

 

[VaughnTrue]

How could anyone have said it was compliant? People could have argued about how long it’d be before/if it was caught/removed from the market, or claim it wasn’t dangerous, but saying it was compliant?

I'm trying to find the thread but having a hard time. I fought back and forth for quite a while, and even went in DEEP with screen shots from the label and direct law quotes etc.


What amazes me is what else MA labs is still selling despite getting this letter:

https://masupps.com/product/gw/ - non compliant, illegal dietary supplement.

https://masupps.com/product/somatozine/ - non compliant, illegal dietary supplement