Open Letter To Washington Post and Ms. Amy Shipley

You know I just don't get this reporter or our government at times. Some of you may not share my views on this and thats ok. Before continuing let me just say that I do love my country but as a citizen I have the FREEDOM (or at least I am supposed to) to express concerns.

Hundreds of thousands of lives are destroyed each year by tobacco products yet there is hardly a push beyond smoke and mirrors to control it. Then of course we have alcohol that again destroys and negatively impacts the same type of volume of lives. Lastly we allow a host of recreational drugs to spiral out of control. I think the government has clearly demonstrated their inability to manage any of this ..............and now they would like to take on another task that they can muddle through and handle half assed.

The governments so called "war on drugs" has been and continues to be nothing more than a charade. Now all of a sudden because a few professional athletes get caught using designer steroids the witchhunt begins. Like most corporate exectutives they are unable to define the actual issue(s) here.

The issue of using the substances in a sport that clearly defines it as being against the rules is one thing. In that particular case I AGREE that the athlete violating the rule should be held accountable BY HIS SPORT. Our government has no business in this.....if you can't figure out there are far more important things for you to manage then get out of government and allow someone else to help run a country!! Would the government have gotten involved if they found out Rafael had smoked a joint or snorted a line before the game?? Would Ms. Shipley have spent much time on writing an article on it? No as its not news worthy beyond a small mention in the sports page perhaps.

Of course after that one you (government and media) like to throw in a healthy dose of AAS use by minors. Of course you fail to document any of their pre use issues. You never put it in perspective by benchmarking it against rec drug or alcohol caused suicides and other problems. I am sure you know the statisitics.....you just dont report them as they would not support the witchhunt.

The issue you blur those with is the general use of steroids and pro hormones. I suggest you read some of the original testimony that made many steroids Class III. You would quickly find that most medical experts and even our own DEA recommended agaisnt classifying. There is a host of data that suggest and supporst that the RESPONSIBLE use of AAS can be a positive thing. Its a shame none of the government or new reporters can remains objective on this.

You probably don't realize that for every professional athlete using them there are hundreds more people like me using them to help IMPROVE thier appearance , attitude and life. I am a 43 year old professional I dont smoke, dont use drugs and don't even drink. Two years ago I was 265 lbs , roughly 30% fat and at an all time low for health and mental attitude. I lived on fast food daily (and lots of) high fats, sugars and anyting else unhealthy continually stuffed in my face while I sat on my ass and played video games and watched TV while not working. Now through a lot of strict diet, consistent exercise (cardio and resistance trainining) and yes some prohormones I am 190 lbs and 17% BF. Through boards like this I learned to monitor health correctly when using the prohormones. My health is better now than in my 20s even and yes that AFTER use of prohormones. My blood tests and doctors exams show a perfect cholesterol, heart and liver function and every other aspect of health. My family doctor is amazed at how good everything is considering my former self.

I find it frustrating as hell that you want to take the choice of responsibly using these substances away. You will allow me to smoke until my lungs blacken (and burden health costs astronomically). You will allow me to drink and potentially destory my liver , family or worse yet yours when I kill someone in a car wreck. You will allow me to buy food that is so horrendous for the body it actually makes me sick if I eat it much now. But NO dont let me use something that might help me gain a little muscle!! God forbid that!!

I suppose this seems like a rant and you know what? Some of it is. So whats my message? Well as a humble single voter my message is GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT!! Fix social security, social injustice, worldwide hunger, pollution, the economy, health care (and the lack therof). And reporters why dont you report on the need for refrom in all of those areas. Use your mighty pen and voice to drive change where its really needed. Use your gift of literacy to improve lives rather than just whoring the talent for a paycheck. Need I go on??? If and when you get all those things corrected maybe then you will have time for witchhunts.
 
Bravo! Here, here! Very well said, Author.

So...Ms. Shipley, please feel free to post your questions under your own name here and both Author and myself will do our very best to answer them in an insightful, honest and intelligent manner.


BK



Author L. Rea said:
Forgive me for my silence. I simply have had no reason to post. I do not watch day-time soap operas either.

It really does not matter who the source was, lads. And there was no intent to point at anyone. What matters is that it has simply become another example of drama for no good purpose that was taken into wrong directions in a few cases.

I pay for this area on this board to help support a forum for others who wish to discuss with their peers their own freedoms of choice in a format that allows us to agree or not. Most do so in an intelligent respectful manner. It has not effected our sales in any way, good or bad. But I have enjoyed speaking with many of you when I could steel the time to do so. Thank you.

The only intent of this post was and is to invite Ms. Shipley into a forum that would allow her an opportunity to hear from, and discuss this with, those she focused upon this time, as well as the many that these negative articles hurt. Want to do something for the public? Close a McDonald's and save a dozen heart attacks. Or, please, do something positive with all of the drunk kids I see constantly with a cigarette.

I had read her 2002 article and found that it is quite possible that she may be interested in publicly gaining the truth. It is all of those who steel threads to take to other boards, magazines and media maniacs that concern me. That is just drama for the sake of drama and suggest the dire need for estrogen control.

There certainly is no doubt that Pat dislikes me and most innovative lads in the industry. He bashes for page after page anything good other companies do for reasons known only to him in the wee hours of the night. He too, like us all, has his own ghosts to battle. But that does not make him all bad, nor do I have any desire to point any negative thoughts or feelings his, or anyone's way. I wish him and his endeavors the best and of course invite him to speak to me personally, face to face, anytime he feels the need to do so. Who knows, being in person rather than behind a key board, has made many far more respectful of those they speak of, and so much more interesting. LOL, Not likely ever friends, but certainly potential to resolve the lack of manners in a rather positive way.

In short, it is a sad state of the industry when we spend our time helping others destroy it and become blind to common sense. Lets stop.I have.
Click to expand...
 
likewise, AM members, please temper any responses and opinions with due respect. That works both ways. We are trying to move ahead with rational and intelligent dialogue; the kind of which is expected from members of this board. :thumbsup:
 
So I guess time will tell. I am not outright naming the person I *know* pointed the Post towards myself and ALRI - I'd probably get hit with papers from a constable within a week.

But...what Yagman writes (not me) below is very well put. Why doesn't PA just tell us what the chemical names of the PS and site injection enhancer he is "planning to launch"? I mean, Author and I had no reason to hold back, we came out here on this board and openly discussed the chemical names of things we were looking into that were/are legal?

It's not as if every company in the world won't clone the stuff PA is "planning" on making anyhow, right?

*edit*

But Author is correct - it's a moot point at this time.

BK





Yagman said:
This will only make sense if PA doesn't come out with the PH he's claiming will be available in September. Otherwise, it seems to me that someone who's been pushing AA hard since the ban and knows the reporter would make the most sense by far.
Click to expand...
 
jcam222 said:
You know I just don't get this reporter or our government at times. Some of you may not share my views on this and thats ok. Before continuing let me just say that I do love my country but as a citizen I have the FREEDOM (or at least I am supposed to) to express concerns.

Hundreds of thousands of lives are destroyed each year by tobacco products yet there is hardly a push beyond smoke and mirrors to control it. Then of course we have alcohol that again destroys and negatively impacts the same type of volume of lives. Lastly we allow a host of recreational drugs to spiral out of control. I think the government has clearly demonstrated their inability to manage any of this ..............and now they would like to take on another task that they can muddle through and handle half assed.

The governments so called "war on drugs" has been and continues to be nothing more than a charade. Now all of a sudden because a few professional athletes get caught using designer steroids the witchhunt begins. Like most corporate exectutives they are unable to define the actual issue(s) here.

The issue of using the substances in a sport that clearly defines it as being against the rules is one thing. In that particular case I AGREE that the athlete violating the rule should be held accountable BY HIS SPORT. Our government has no business in this.....if you can't figure out there are far more important things for you to manage then get out of government and allow someone else to help run a country!! Would the government have gotten involved if they found out Rafael had smoked a joint or snorted a line before the game?? Would Ms. Shipley have spent much time on writing an article on it? No as its not news worthy beyond a small mention in the sports page perhaps.

Of course after that one you (government and media) like to throw in a healthy dose of AAS use by minors. Of course you fail to document any of their pre use issues. You never put it in perspective by benchmarking it against rec drug or alcohol caused suicides and other problems. I am sure you know the statisitics.....you just dont report them as they would not support the witchhunt.

The issue you blur those with is the general use of steroids and pro hormones. I suggest you read some of the original testimony that made many steroids Class III. You would quickly find that most medical experts and even our own DEA recommended agaisnt classifying. There is a host of data that suggest and supporst that the RESPONSIBLE use of AAS can be a positive thing. Its a shame none of the government or new reporters can remains objective on this.

You probably don't realize that for every professional athlete using them there are hundreds more people like me using them to help IMPROVE thier appearance , attitude and life. I am a 43 year old professional I dont smoke, dont use drugs and don't even drink. Two years ago I was 265 lbs , roughly 30% fat and at an all time low for health and mental attitude. I lived on fast food daily (and lots of) high fats, sugars and anyting else unhealthy continually stuffed in my face while I sat on my ass and played video games and watched TV while not working. Now through a lot of strict diet, consistent exercise (cardio and resistance trainining) and yes some prohormones I am 190 lbs and 17% BF. Through boards like this I learned to monitor health correctly when using the prohormones. My health is better now than in my 20s even and yes that AFTER use of prohormones. My blood tests and doctors exams show a perfect cholesterol, heart and liver function and every other aspect of health. My family doctor is amazed at how good everything is considering my former self.

I find it frustrating as hell that you want to take the choice of responsibly using these substances away. You will allow me to smoke until my lungs blacken (and burden health costs astronomically). You will allow me to drink and potentially destory my liver , family or worse yet yours when I kill someone in a car wreck. You will allow me to buy food that is so horrendous for the body it actually makes me sick if I eat it much now. But NO dont let me use something that might help me gain a little muscle!! God forbid that!!

I suppose this seems like a rant and you know what? Some of it is. So whats my message? Well as a humble single voter my message is GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT!! Fix social security, social injustice, worldwide hunger, pollution, the economy, health care (and the lack therof). And reporters why dont you report on the need for refrom in all of those areas. Use your mighty pen and voice to drive change where its really needed. Use your gift of literacy to improve lives rather than just whoring the talent for a paycheck. Need I go on??? If and when you get all those things corrected maybe then you will have time for witchhunts.
Click to expand...
Good god man..I think you brought a tear to my eye. A man that understands :goodpost:
 
wow im lost. i go on a 3 week leave. come back and all the info is gone and you cant post.

what happened
 
wastedwhiteboy2 said:
I think we need to do something about the BS the media puts out. maybe concentrate on the reporters writing the BS.
Click to expand...
Very true....right now media credibility is low. Too bad the only way to get the word out is "through" the media :( lol... I don't think we can muster up enough money for ads and such.
 
jcam222 said:
You know I just don't get this reporter or our government at times. Some of you may not share my views on this and thats ok. Before continuing let me just say that I do love my country but as a citizen I have the FREEDOM (or at least I am supposed to) to express concerns.

Hundreds of thousands of lives are destroyed each year by tobacco products yet there is hardly a push beyond smoke and mirrors to control it. Then of course we have alcohol that again destroys and negatively impacts the same type of volume of lives. Lastly we allow a host of recreational drugs to spiral out of control. I think the government has clearly demonstrated their inability to manage any of this ..............and now they would like to take on another task that they can muddle through and handle half assed.

The governments so called "war on drugs" has been and continues to be nothing more than a charade. Now all of a sudden because a few professional athletes get caught using designer steroids the witchhunt begins. Like most corporate exectutives they are unable to define the actual issue(s) here.

The issue of using the substances in a sport that clearly defines it as being against the rules is one thing. In that particular case I AGREE that the athlete violating the rule should be held accountable BY HIS SPORT. Our government has no business in this.....if you can't figure out there are far more important things for you to manage then get out of government and allow someone else to help run a country!! Would the government have gotten involved if they found out Rafael had smoked a joint or snorted a line before the game?? Would Ms. Shipley have spent much time on writing an article on it? No as its not news worthy beyond a small mention in the sports page perhaps.

Of course after that one you (government and media) like to throw in a healthy dose of AAS use by minors. Of course you fail to document any of their pre use issues. You never put it in perspective by benchmarking it against rec drug or alcohol caused suicides and other problems. I am sure you know the statisitics.....you just dont report them as they would not support the witchhunt.

The issue you blur those with is the general use of steroids and pro hormones. I suggest you read some of the original testimony that made many steroids Class III. You would quickly find that most medical experts and even our own DEA recommended agaisnt classifying. There is a host of data that suggest and supporst that the RESPONSIBLE use of AAS can be a positive thing. Its a shame none of the government or new reporters can remains objective on this.

You probably don't realize that for every professional athlete using them there are hundreds more people like me using them to help IMPROVE thier appearance , attitude and life. I am a 43 year old professional I dont smoke, dont use drugs and don't even drink. Two years ago I was 265 lbs , roughly 30% fat and at an all time low for health and mental attitude. I lived on fast food daily (and lots of) high fats, sugars and anyting else unhealthy continually stuffed in my face while I sat on my ass and played video games and watched TV while not working. Now through a lot of strict diet, consistent exercise (cardio and resistance trainining) and yes some prohormones I am 190 lbs and 17% BF. Through boards like this I learned to monitor health correctly when using the prohormones. My health is better now than in my 20s even and yes that AFTER use of prohormones. My blood tests and doctors exams show a perfect cholesterol, heart and liver function and every other aspect of health. My family doctor is amazed at how good everything is considering my former self.

I find it frustrating as hell that you want to take the choice of responsibly using these substances away. You will allow me to smoke until my lungs blacken (and burden health costs astronomically). You will allow me to drink and potentially destory my liver , family or worse yet yours when I kill someone in a car wreck. You will allow me to buy food that is so horrendous for the body it actually makes me sick if I eat it much now. But NO dont let me use something that might help me gain a little muscle!! God forbid that!!

I suppose this seems like a rant and you know what? Some of it is. So whats my message? Well as a humble single voter my message is GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT!! Fix social security, social injustice, worldwide hunger, pollution, the economy, health care (and the lack therof). And reporters why dont you report on the need for refrom in all of those areas. Use your mighty pen and voice to drive change where its really needed. Use your gift of literacy to improve lives rather than just whoring the talent for a paycheck. Need I go on??? If and when you get all those things corrected maybe then you will have time for witchhunts.
Click to expand...


Very nice post. But it won't matter. You could say that AAS saves young lives and improves the living condition of the elderly but it won't matter a damn bit. Why? Because the government has to be seen as doing something. How did you think they were going to react when reports come out about 7th graders using gear and kids killing themselves while they where on gear. This is the land where the minority can hold the majority hostage, so everybody can feel good about not oppressing said minority's rights.
 
LCSULLA said:
Very nice post. But it won't matter. You could say that AAS saves young lives and improves the living condition of the elderly but it won't matter a damn bit. Why? Because the government has to be seen as doing something. How did you think they were going to react when reports come out about 7th graders using gear and kids killing themselves while they where on gear. This is the land where the minority can hold the majority hostage, so everybody can feel good about not oppressing said minority's rights.
Click to expand...
Exactly....its all about votes and power. The more power, the more corrupt, and they less they care about the truth.

"Power tends to corrupt, absolutely power corrupts absolutely" -- Lord Acton

Maybe she's not posting because she thought bodybuilders were idiots and was a bit surprised when she started to read the thread, eh? :p Hey....you want a headline Ms. Shipley? How about, "Big, strong people aren't stupid....really, they're not!" You can get page #1 with that one.

Oh, and LCSULLA, you couldn' be more correct about the dominant "minority" in the country. Its a pathetic state for our union to be in.
 
I’ll tell you the bottom line guys, Ms. Shiply, the guy who set this up with her, and everyone who intentionally misguides innocent masses of people, will one day be judged by the God of this universe. They had better start doing some soul searching, because no matter how drunk they get with the power of their corruption, they will answer for it one day and the equation will be balanced. Don’t get me wrong, I am no “Bible beater� and have made plenty of mistakes myself, but I do believe this with all my heart. You can't take money or power to the grave, that’s a fact we can all agree on, so you had better behave yourself and never abuse your influence. I pray for PA, Ms. Shiply and anyone else who still has not figured this out yet. It took me awhile to get it too, but I'm so glad I finally got it!
 
I think I will chime in........Most people who do not compete or are not into bodybuilding do not want to know the truth. They just want the juicy headlines that cause ruckus. I am 21 and I am a student who plans on becoming a elite bodybuilder one day and presonal trainer in the coming months. Bodybuilding and the supplements I take have changed my life for the better. It makes me feel better about myself and improved my health. My heart rate, BP, and everything else is perfect. I see way too many people getting the wrong information these days, and it is a shame. We should be working together to help our obesity crisis here in America, and these supplements can help sure it. I did several reports and term papers on the topic of obesity and how America media and goverment are doing everything to not solve the problem. You cannot expect everyone to understand all this info at once, but over time, lives will be changed for the better, one by one, with the right info.
 
Wow...that worked too well.


:lol:
 
a few thoughts

1. When are people in the supplements industry going to get it that 95 % of the time they are not going to have a fair story written about them in the press? Even if the reporter has good intentions often times the editor or producers of the story don't. The only way to protect yourself is to have a written transcript of the story or show and post the actual transcript of the interview vs. the story that they ran. They of course won't allow you to do this.
2. This thread is a perfect example of why the supplement industry is going to implode. Everyone is out to cut their competitors throat. To those of you involved in this business let me ask you a question. Why is it that products that harm people such as tobacco are not banned? The answer is because they spend quite a bit of money lobbying congress. You never see cigarette companies posting articles that another brand sucks or anything like that. Why do you think that is? The answer is because that smear campaigns and cooperate warfare might hurt their competitors but it ends up hurting the whole industry, thus hurting themselves. In other words, if the supplement companies don't get on the same page and realize that the enemy of their enemy is their friend, we are going to have to get a prescription to buy vitamin C.
3. Please stop using the words steroid, prohormone, or hormone in any advertising. The steroid hearings are not over yet and all it's going to take is Biden to open a newspaper and see a fair and balanced story about new steroid like compounds. Bureaucracy is extremely slow moving which is why you guys should have waited until after the hearings are over to come out with new products. That way even if Biden does see a story about it, it will take much longer for them to do anything about it. The politicians are going to see the new products as the supplement companies giving them the middle finger, which will probably mean an all out ban of anything hormonal.
4. There is another large contributor to congress and that is big pharmaceutical companies. Big pharmaceutical companies don't like supplement companies, especially ones that come out with products that work. So, in other words the supplement industry has allot going against it. The last thing it needs is the people involved in the community helping to destroy it. Your cutting your own throats but don't realize it.
5. Do something to hit them back. The industry has been bitch slapped by everyone and pretty much rolled over and took it. Send a message not to F with you. Organize against some of the politicians who have hurt the industry or support a candidate that is opposing one of those great senators or congressmen. If the supplement industry threw a monkey wrench in the reelection campaign of Biden or his presidential campaign they are going to think twice about screwing with you in the future. That is why guns weren't banned 20 years ago.
 
Uh oh...VG is getting political. Look out :)
 
milwood said:
yeah, the Gorililililililla is on fire! Watch out!!! Props, VG.
Click to expand...
Ditto.......

The 5% of me that is an optimist thinks that because this is a NEW industry (relatively), we may eventually get it right.

The 95% of me that is a realist knows that the industry is almost going to kill over before anybody takes VG's post seriously....When we hit that critical point, lets hope that little bit of optimist in me is right :)
 
The most important thing now is to use our heads collectively about the moves that we make as a whole. Let us not forget that the consumer is as much (or more) a part of the industry as the company that makes the products that we consume. I think a lot of people think that as consumers, we are powerless to have an influence in the industry. MONEY talks, everything else is just murmurring. If you don't buy a product, it will not continue to be made; if you do it will. Legal or illegal, the government can not stop the production and distribution of ANY scheduled substance (as they continually prove). Prohibition failed because people just would not stop drinking and the unregulated alcohol presented problems that were unforseen. I am NOT saying that regulation is a good thing, but that the CONSUMERS spoke and washington listened. As long as tobacco is BIG business, oncologists will have job security. Our government is not rational, it is POLITICAL, please don't confuse the two. I just wish that they would focus on their damn business as was stated above instead of interfering with the lifes of people who cause no trouble. Suicide linked to steroids? Suicide is linked to ANTI-DEPRESSANTS more concretely, where should we begin the witch-hunt? It is just so aggravating that this continues to be an issue. If this seems like a directionless rant:it is!
 
VanillaGorilla said:
a few thoughts

1. When are people in the supplements industry going to get it that 95 % of the time they are not going to have a fair story written about them in the press? Even if the reporter has good intentions often times the editor or producers of the story don't. The only way to protect yourself is to have a written transcript of the story or show and post the actual transcript of the interview vs. the story that they ran. They of course won't allow you to do this.
2. This thread is a perfect example of why the supplement industry is going to implode. Everyone is out to cut their competitors throat. To those of you involved in this business let me ask you a question. Why is it that products that harm people such as tobacco are not banned? The answer is because they spend quite a bit of money lobbying congress. You never see cigarette companies posting articles that another brand sucks or anything like that. Why do you think that is? The answer is because that smear campaigns and cooperate warfare might hurt their competitors but it ends up hurting the whole industry, thus hurting themselves. In other words, if the supplement companies don't get on the same page and realize that the enemy of their enemy is their friend, we are going to have to get a prescription to buy vitamin C.
3. Please stop using the words steroid, prohormone, or hormone in any advertising. The steroid hearings are not over yet and all it's going to take is Biden to open a newspaper and see a fair and balanced story about new steroid like compounds. Bureaucracy is extremely slow moving which is why you guys should have waited until after the hearings are over to come out with new products. That way even if Biden does see a story about it, it will take much longer for them to do anything about it. The politicians are going to see the new products as the supplement companies giving them the middle finger, which will probably mean an all out ban of anything hormonal.
4. There is another large contributor to congress and that is big pharmaceutical companies. Big pharmaceutical companies don't like supplement companies, especially ones that come out with products that work. So, in other words the supplement industry has allot going against it. The last thing it needs is the people involved in the community helping to destroy it. Your cutting your own throats but don't realize it.
5. Do something to hit them back. The industry has been bitch slapped by everyone and pretty much rolled over and took it. Send a message not to F with you. Organize against some of the politicians who have hurt the industry or support a candidate that is opposing one of those great senators or congressmen. If the supplement industry threw a monkey wrench in the reelection campaign of Biden or his presidential campaign they are going to think twice about screwing with you in the future. That is why guns weren't banned 20 years ago.
Click to expand...
Couldn't have said it better myself :goodpost:
 
Dungeon1 said:
The most important thing now is to use our heads collectively about the moves that we make as a whole. Let us not forget that the consumer is as much (or more) a part of the industry as the company that makes the products that we consume. I think a lot of people think that as consumers, we are powerless to have an influence in the industry. MONEY talks, everything else is just murmurring. If you don't buy a product, it will not continue to be made; if you do it will. Legal or illegal, the government can not stop the production and distribution of ANY scheduled substance (as they continually prove).
Click to expand...


I would agree with, but for the BB.com factor. Everyday you have kids coming on to the boards and buying every piece of crap (legit and not) to get big. And they are going to screw it up, for the most part. Kids taking M1T for 12 weeks and etc. Or buying...say E-Max and going ape **** becasue it did not put on 25+lbs in a week. And screaming fake because theres a diffrent label on the bottle or whatever.
 
TINYTOAD said:
Along the same lines...

Why is it okay to get botox injections to paralyze facial muscles, reducing wrinkles and extending the careers of people want to look younger?
Why is it a crime to take hormones to increase strength and stamina, to extend the careers of people who need to perform physically?

Remember these names:
Mr. Biden, Mr. Hatch, Mr. Grassley, Mr. Harkin, Mr. Stevens, Mr. McCain, Mr. Nelson of Florida, Mrs. Feinstein, Mr. Allen, and Ms. Murkowski?
Don't vote for them, and tell your friends.

-Tinytoad
Click to expand...
You forgot Dick Durbin of IL
 
One last thing.

You can't legislate morality and ethics because they are inherently
subjective.

Prohibition failed because of this. Do you think people did not
drink even though it was illegal?

People smoke marijuana, snort cocaine and drop ecstasy and all of
these are illegal.

The fact that a possible prison sentence is associated with their
use and possession does not seem to really a factor in someone's choice
to use. Because use is pandemic. I am not saying it is right. I am not passing
judgement either way. I am just saying, "it is what it is".

We (some of us in the supplement industry) wanted and still want
to offer consenting, intelligent make adults who are educated
on the topic, the chance to purchase and use products that are
legal and made in a controlled, GMP driven, facility instead of
some illegal schedule C-III black market underground lab "broth"
distilled in someone sink or bath tub.

As long as the public demands 330 pound offensive linemen, baseball
players who hit 50+ HR's and 160 RBI's per year...year after year...
pitchers who consistently throw 95+ MPH sliders and track stars who
can run the 100m in the low 9.9's, high 9.8's (or faster even!) there are
going to be performance enhancers used in sports. I mean, why not just ban
'cleats' for track and field or baseball. Aren't they a form of cheating?
Or aluminum and ceramic bats in college baseball? How about access to
safe and good food? I mean, if an athlete in a third world country doesn't
have access to unlimited, delicious, nutritious food then those who live in
the West have an "unfair advantage" correct? Slippery slope time, guys...

When the media sensationalizes stuff like this, not to report news
but to write "for the sake of the story itself" this does a huge
disservice to the liberty and freedoms of all of us.

The Washington Post hits the desks of every Congressman
every morning. There will be a backlash and for sure more of
these products will be banned.

But the legislation does nothing to address demand...only supply (legal supply
that is).

So what happens is these hatchet job articles serve as fodder for
self-centered Congressmen who are more concerned about looking good in
the media spotlight so they can get re-elected than what is truly "good"
for the American public as a whole.

What happens is you're creating something that is not needed - more criminals.
You're making the 33 year old guy who is married with two kids, making $60K per year
who wants a "little edge" or is 'feeling a little old' into a felon.

And for what good and what purpose?

The comments about the supplement industry eating itself are 100% dead on correct.
I have tried very hard to establish alliances with companies looking to make this
industry a better and more positive place. It is unfortunate that others view this
industry as "all or nothing" (meaning they have control over all of it or there will
be no industry to say of). It's sad that some are THAT selfish. We do eat are own
young. We are our worst enemy.

I'll leave it at that. I think ALR decided to hold his tongue until Ms. Shipley decides to post here
and I am going to follow suit from here after.


BK



carcinogen said:
You forgot Dick Durbin of IL
Click to expand...
 
BKneller said:
One last thing.

You can't legislate morality and ethics because they are inherently
subjective.

Prohibition failed because of this. Do you think people did not
drink even though it was illegal?

People smoke marijuana, snort cocaine and drop ecstasy and all of
these are illegal.

The fact that a possible prison sentence is associated with their
use and possession does not seem to really a factor in someone's choice
to use. Because use is pandemic. I am not saying it is right. I am not passing
judgement either way. I am just saying, "it is what it is".

We (some of us in the supplement industry) wanted and still want
to offer consenting, intelligent make adults who are educated
on the topic, the chance to purchase and use products that are
legal and made in a controlled, GMP driven, facility instead of
some illegal schedule C-III black market underground lab "broth"
distilled in someone sink or bath tub.

As long as the public demands 330 pound offensive linemen, baseball
players who hit 50+ HR's and 160 RBI's per year...year after year...
pitchers who consistently throw 95+ MPH sliders and track stars who
can run the 100m in the low 9.9's, high 9.8's (or faster even!) there are
going to be performance enhancers used in sports. I mean, why not just ban
'cleats' for track and field or baseball. Aren't they a form of cheating?
Or aluminum and ceramic bats in college baseball? How about access to
safe and good food? I mean, if an athlete in a third world country doesn't
have access to unlimited, delicious, nutritious food then those who live in
the West have an "unfair advantage" correct? Slippery slope time, guys...

When the media sensationalizes stuff like this, not to report news
but to write "for the sake of the story itself" this does a huge
disservice to the liberty and freedoms of all of us.

The Washington Post hits the desks of every Congressman
every morning. There will be a backlash and for sure more of
these products will be banned.

But the legislation does nothing to address demand...only supply (legal supply
that is).

So what happens is these hatchet job articles serve as fodder for
self-centered Congressmen who are more concerned about looking good in
the media spotlight so they can get re-elected than what is truly "good"
for the American public as a whole.

What happens is you're creating something that is not needed - more criminals.
You're making the 33 year old guy who is married with two kids, making $60K per year
who wants a "little edge" or is 'feeling a little old' into a felon.

And for what good and what purpose?

The comments about the supplement industry eating itself are 100% dead on correct.
I have tried very hard to establish alliances with companies looking to make this
industry a better and more positive place. It is unfortunate that others view this
industry as "all or nothing" (meaning they have control over all of it or there will
be no industry to say of). It's sad that some are THAT selfish. We do eat are own
young. We are our worst enemy.

I'll leave it at that. I think ALR decided to hold his tongue until Ms. Shipley decides to post here
and I am going to follow suit from here after.


BK
Click to expand...


GREAT post BK, great post!
 
So compromise and let them make it illegal for anyone under 18 or 21 to buy hormonal supplements instead of making them illegal for adults.

and we do need more of a voice in politics.
 
BK, great post!

WWB, isn't it funny how it would really be that simple to "protect the children"? Make a law where you have to be 21 to use steroids. Simple! Nope...instead, we need drama. Drama makes heros and heroes get votes, raises and promotions....*sigh* Sheeple, sheeple, sheeple.....

And, I REALLY dont' believe Ms. Shipley will bother to respond in here. She knows she wont get what she wants.
 
wastedwhiteboy2 said:
So compromise and let them make it illegal for anyone under 18 or 21 to buy hormonal supplements instead of making them illegal for adults.

and we do need more of a voice in politics.
Click to expand...
This would definitely be the responsible thing to do. But it makes too much sense so politicians will throw it out the window
 
Iron Warrior said:
This would definitely be the responsible thing to do. But it makes too much sense so politicians will throw it out the window
Click to expand...

Well, they can tax the **** out of booze and cig's so they "play the green" on those, but they don't get a cut on the PH's. It's all about the green in the end on every choice they make. We need to form a strong dietary/supp lobby and make more donations!!!
 
Mr. Biden, Mr. Hatch, Mr. Grassley, Mr. Harkin, Mr. Stevens, Mr. McCain, Mr. Nelson of Florida, Mrs. Feinstein, Mr. Allen, and Ms. Murkowski...

You forgot Dick Durbin of IL
Click to expand...
Let's pick the most offensive of these clowns and put some money behind an effort to knock him out of office next election. If they insist on pursuing irrational aims then they need to be removed from office and used as a warning to others promoting causes that get media hype but are not based in good public policy or reality.
 
Remember this BS from USASwimming.org?

"As most of you are aware, Kicker Vencill tested positive for 19-Norandrolone. He was able to show that his multivitamin was tainted but the rules state that you alone are responsible for what you choose to consume, and Kicker was suspended for two years. He was removed from the Pan American Games team last summer and will not be able to compete at Olympic Trials. He is asking you to join him in making a change to the supplement industry that cost him everything he had worked so hard for.

Congress wants to make a difference and so should we as athletes. If changes never occur, our health, our reputation, and our careers could be at a potential risk. My career was ended all because of a contaminated multi vitamin containing steroid precursors. I'm not asking for your sympathy, but I am asking for your support in the fight to get steroid precursors pulled off of the supplement market. Whether or not you choose to take supplements, it is important that we work together to help prevent false positives. Nothing will ever change if we choose not to take a stand. Read below and see how you can make a difference in the legislation against steroid precursors. Kicker Vencill


USA Swimming is a member of CASPER (the Coalition for Anabolic Steroid Precursor and Ephedra Regulation). We are asking you to write a message to your congressmen and women encouraging them to support the following bill: <snip>

It’s very easy to cut and paste the sample letter below and send an email. Be sure you include a statement about why this is important to you. Your health, your sport, and your reputation are at risk due to a loosely regulated supplement industry. We want these representatives to know you feel strongly about this and that athletes (including you, your teammates and friends) are being affected by this daily. Send this on to family and friends and teammates and encourage them to send an email. We can make a change!

(USADA indicates the following: “The easiest and most cost-effective method to get the letter to the respective Congressional or Senate representative is via email. Go to Invalid Link Removed (Congress) or Invalid Link Removed (Senate). It is recommended that you email the representative from your state. The web site provides ability to search by zip code for Congress representatives. Please change the letter somewhat. This will increase the impact of the letters as opposed to the same letter being received numerous times. Also include a message about your USA Swimming membership and CASPER�. )

Letter for S.2195 (Support for Legislation in U.S. Senate)

The Honorable «Name»
«Title»
United States Senate
«Street_Address»
«City», «State» «Zip»

Dear Senator «Last_Name»:

I am writing concerning, S. 2195, the "Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004," which is co-sponsored by Senators Mr. Biden (For Himself, Mr. Hatch, Mr. Grassley, Mr. Harkin, Mr. Stevens, Mr. McCain, Mr. Nelson, Mrs. Feinstein, Mr. Allen, and Ms. Murkowski).

I urge you to support this legislation, because I am extremely concerned about the availability and increasing use of anabolic steroid precursors in the United States. Thousands of over-the-counter products containing steroid precursors that metabolize in the body into anabolic steroids are being sold as "safe" steroid equivalents. Currently, there is no requirement for manufacturers to conduct safety studies prior to, or after, releasing these steroid precursor products. However, because these products are metabolized by the body into anabolic steroids, the side-effects are thought to be the same as the side-effects resulting from steroid use, including the masculinization of women, potential for growth termination in adolescents, cardiovascular damage, liver damage and damage to reproductive organs.

I support S. 2195, which would amend the Controlled Substances Act to clarify the definition of anabolic steroids and to provide for research and education activities relating to steroids and steroid precursors.

Sincerely,

Fred Nerk
 
DR.D said:
Well, they can tax the **** out of booze and cig's so they "play the green" on those, but they don't get a cut on the PH's. It's all about the green in the end on every choice they make. We need to form a strong dietary/supp lobby and make more donations!!!
Click to expand...
Hit the Nail on head
 
DR.D said:
Well, they can tax the **** out of booze and cig's so they "play the green" on those, but they don't get a cut on the PH's. It's all about the green in the end on every choice they make. We need to form a strong dietary/supp lobby and make more donations!!!
Click to expand...
Sad but true Doc :sad:
 
TINYTOAD said:
Remember this BS from USASwimming.org?

"As most of you are aware, Kicker Vencill tested positive for 19-Norandrolone. He was able to show that his multivitamin was tainted but the rules state that you alone are responsible for what you choose to consume, and Kicker was suspended for two years. He was removed from the Pan American Games team last summer and will not be able to compete at Olympic Trials. He is asking you to join him in making a change to the supplement industry that cost him everything he had worked so hard for.

Congress wants to make a difference and so should we as athletes. If changes never occur, our health, our reputation, and our careers could be at a potential risk. My career was ended all because of a contaminated multi vitamin containing steroid precursors. I'm not asking for your sympathy, but I am asking for your support in the fight to get steroid precursors pulled off of the supplement market. Whether or not you choose to take supplements, it is important that we work together to help prevent false positives. Nothing will ever change if we choose not to take a stand. Read below and see how you can make a difference in the legislation against steroid precursors. Kicker Vencill
[/QUOTE]

Ohhh...I remember that lying prick.

Claiming that orally ingesting nandrolone undec. in a small enough amount to be nothing mor than a 'contamination' caused him to have levels 200% above normal....what BS. Absolutely impossible...another example of how 'ignorance' is being used in the war against sports supplements.

Not only that, but the jury gave the suit to him, regardless of the fact that the company in questiosn multis and PHs are / were made at two different facilities and lab results showed the multi was clean.
Click to expand...
 
DR.D said:
Well, they can tax the **** out of booze and cig's so they "play the green" on those, but they don't get a cut on the PH's. It's all about the green in the end on every choice they make. We need to form a strong dietary/supp lobby and make more donations!!!
Click to expand...
Another donation button??? :)

Adams
 
I think it's a different topic for a different forum...then again I'm the idiot who took this off-topic...

BP
 
Talking to the media is never a good thing in such a case...unless you are live. Every time I have tried I have seen the intereview later and knew that I never really said those things - never let them have your words to play with. And most often they do not want to know facts (there may be exceptions). Most often they want to sell product to people who have already made up their mind. For insance, 'roid rage and 'roid-related suicide...I have read enough and written enough about it to now that there is plenty enough data out there to raise questions about the media's (and even some scientist's) portrayals of these things as foregone conclusions. But the people and the congress know the truth already...it is all about belief...they do not want to be confused by facts or data. The media will most often feed the people's need to hear what they already think they know.

For instance, I saw a headline this weekend about Lyle Alzado and how his death highlighted the dangers of AAS years ago - have they not been paying attention?

It would be interesting to have someone from the media actually want to come and learn....but I will not hold my breath.
 
Jack of Shadows said:
For instance, I saw a headline this weekend about Lyle Alzado and how his death highlighted the dangers of AAS years ago - have they not been paying attention?

It would be interesting to have someone from the media actually want to come and learn....but I will not hold my breath.
Click to expand...
I feel the same way. Its so sad that they have a total disregard for the truth and just so they can make a story and a few bucks?

What ever happened to the media? Its a disgrace unto itself.
 
Oh well, time to go smoke my cigar, wash down a Big Mac with some Jack Daniels, take a 20 minute cigarette break, take a deep breath and inhale some Carbon minoxide from all the SUV's, eat some fruit laced with pesticide, drink water that's contaminated with lead, drink a fresh glass of milk filled with hormones given to cows, overuse antibiotics and ponder all the dangers of supplements.
 
Priorities

Yagman, don't you ever think before you post?

What if Ms. Shipley or her editor or the FDA sees that?

They'll have to put aside the very real dangers that supplements pose to every man, woman and child in America and go bring the tobacco, alcohol, fast food, etc industries to their knees,

and you just know they'll do it, too.



On a somewhat related note, I took one of my infrequent looks at a Wall Street Journal somewhere in the last week or two. There on the front page was a story about mercury in tuna, how one little boy was suffering serious effects from his rather obsessive consumption of tuna, how his well-educated parents were wondering why the FDA hadn't done a better job of warning folks of a danger they had known about for some time, and some details of just how poor the FDA's service to the public was on this issue.

In this one example, at least, there is a glaring difference in which things the Washington Post covers vs. which the WSJ covers, and some resemblance to the supermarket tabloids by one of them.

I guess there aren't that many people in America who eat tuna fish, and that would explain why the Post, the FDA and certain politicians prioritize the way they do.
 
Last edited:
Yagman said:
Oh well, time to go smoke my cigar, wash down a Big Mac with some Jack Daniels, take a 20 minute cigarette break, take a deep breath and inhale some Carbon minoxide from all the SUV's, eat some fruit laced with pesticide, drink water that's contaminated with lead, drink a fresh glass of milk filled with hormones given to cows, overuse antibiotics and ponder all the dangers of supplements.
Click to expand...
What's sad about this is that it is true
 
Yagman said:
Oh well, time to go smoke my cigar, wash down a Big Mac with some Jack Daniels, take a 20 minute cigarette break, take a deep breath and inhale some Carbon minoxide from all the SUV's, eat some fruit laced with pesticide, drink water that's contaminated with lead, drink a fresh glass of milk filled with hormones given to cows, overuse antibiotics and ponder all the dangers of supplements.
Click to expand...


In a single post you managed to target those represented by the big tobacco lobby, the fast food lobby, the alcohol lobby, the automobile lobby, the farmers/ag lobby and finally the pharmaceutical lobby.

Gee, and anyone wonder why they are picking on the supplement industry. Go after the low hanging fruit right? Its chickensh*t.
 
Yagman said:
Oh well, time to go smoke my cigar, wash down a Big Mac with some Jack Daniels, take a 20 minute cigarette break, take a deep breath and inhale some Carbon minoxide from all the SUV's, eat some fruit laced with pesticide, drink water that's contaminated with lead, drink a fresh glass of milk filled with hormones given to cows, overuse antibiotics and ponder all the dangers of supplements.
Click to expand...
Sounds about right. Well like I always say, if you can't beat them, join them. Gotta go, time to go pick up smoking, drive drunk and beat my wife.
 
BKneller said:
I have tried very hard to establish alliances with companies looking to make this
industry a better and more positive place.

BK
Click to expand...
so work with me then Bruce. Why don't we figure something out for say....ATD?
 
Yagman said:
Oh well, time to go smoke my cigar, wash down a Big Mac with some Jack Daniels, take a 20 minute cigarette break, take a deep breath and inhale some Carbon minoxide from all the SUV's, eat some fruit laced with pesticide, drink water that's contaminated with lead, drink a fresh glass of milk filled with hormones given to cows, overuse antibiotics and ponder all the dangers of supplements.
Click to expand...
:goodpost:
 
firecross said:
Let's pick the most offensive of these clowns and put some money behind an effort to knock him out of office next election. If they insist on pursuing irrational aims then they need to be removed from office and used as a warning to others promoting causes that get media hype but are not based in good public policy or reality.
Click to expand...
These guys are basing their position on information that comes to them from what they consider to be informed, educated, reliable sources; remember that most doctors, even if wrong, honestly believe that steroids are dangerous to your health. The politicians mentioned above are not acting with malice. Everybody acts like these guys know the truth and choose to have these positions anyway.

Since the overwhelming majority of the medical community (again, even if wrong) will tell anyone who listens that steroids are horrible for you, how can you blame the congressmen and senators for believing them? If a large number of experts kept telling you something, would you take their word for it or would you go searching for someone to tell you different and then believe that person? Set your personal beliefs about the subject aside and think about it from their perspective.

The problem is the misinformation itself, not the people who rely on it in good faith and with no malice.

/karp
 
jrkarp said:
The problem is the misinformation itself, not the people who rely on it in good faith and with no malice.

/karp
Click to expand...

Very good point, Karp. I have known smart docs and truly clueless docs, so I see what you mean. However, money is still the bottom line. Senators might think the expert's advise is good, but if the money is right, a politician will take the bad advise anyway for the bottom line in most cases. Alcohol is a great example. It does damage in many ways according to most experts, but the average Senator probably needs a drink every night to relax, plus it's a big money maker due to heavy gov taxation, so it's not going away. If we started paying a 20% PH tax to the gov, I bet they'd find an excuse or a few 'experts' that may agree that they aren't so bad after all!

(It is the sad but true result of modern corruption and the lack of personal morality to keep it in control. Our Founding Fathers were strong Christians and the moral standards of the Bible kept this kind of stuff in check. You want separation of church and state? OK, then say hello to the current state of politics, and good-bye to the freedom of personal choice that can only be afforded when trust and morality are high.)
 
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