NWA kicking it old school + new school together with 1-t thp ether + Mega-TRN

[EasyEJL]

I did manage to minimally spank it or get laid once a day thru the whole cycle, isnt' that a sign of no suppression?

I don't necessarily think there would be no rebound of testosterone + estrogen, but I think the cases where it causes rebound gyno are the guys whose test is in the upper end of the range, and have had low bodyfat and low aromatase levels normally, and so low normal estrogen.

I think my testosterone levels + hence estrogen levels have stayed close to "normal" through this cycle.

 

[EasyEJL]

the not using nolva isn't stingyness its that for a change I really do have blood tests, and would like to see what the results are for just the sustain after a cycle like this. I guess best would have been to do a blood test today as well, so I could see how suppressed I am

 

[SupFatHead]

I did manage to minimally spank it or get laid once a day thru the whole cycle, isnt' that a sign of no suppression?

Not "no" suppression....but likely not that bad.

 

[EasyEJL]

I left out "I checked with my testicles a lot, and i'm sure they didn't shrink either"

 

[sfearl1]

i've heard some guys reporting they experienced no shrinkage on long supressive cycles but that doesn't mean they weren't

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, definitely no way to be sure without blood tests. 10mg tamoxifen citrate or 20 then you think? And for how long? I could do 20 for 2 weeks 10 for 2 I suppose

 

[matthew76]

Just go with 10mg for 3-4 weeks... Just my opinion, but without panels, I would err to the side of caution.

 

[poopypants]

ya I wish you could get blood done 2 more times for the sake of science, but that would start to get expensive (as if the one test isnt expensive)

but at the same time as long as you were back to your normal values after the post cycle therapy you could call it succesful.... dunno Id like to see you run it without, at the same time i dont want to see ya have problems, but you could always keep it on hand for apparent problems and if blood comes baack less then stellar do a low dose run with the Drive youll be runnin (that alone will continue to boost test then the low dose nolva will protect against delayed rebound...)

 

[pistonpump]

i vote for 20/10/10/and maybe 10. that should do its job when stacked with your other PCT products. Id rather do that than use no SERM at all....even Primordial recommends low dose SERM in his PCT thread.

 

[matthew76]

even Primordial recommends low dose SERM in his PCT thread.

But that's for an inject cycle, which clearly is a bit different from what E's been doing.

I will say, however, we all agree that E should run a low dose SERM - just in different fasions. I would hate to know something negative came from not running it E, come on man - be safe!

 

[bitterplacebo]

I did manage to minimally spank it or get laid once a day thru the whole cycle, isnt' that a sign of no suppression?

I don't think so. Libido and suppression aren't mutually exclusive. Both can increase on cycle.

I don't necessarily think there would be no rebound of testosterone + estrogen, but I think the cases where it causes rebound gyno are the guys whose test is in the upper end of the range, and have had low bodyfat and low aromatase levels normally, and so low normal estrogen.

I think my testosterone levels + hence estrogen levels have stayed close to "normal" through this cycle.

You're thinking hasn't convinced me.

It would be an interesting experiment to get the blood test on an otc pct, but what do you get out of that? You said you probably weren't going to be cycling many times a year, so it does it really matter for you to find out if otc is the most practical pct for you?

 

[pistonpump]

is there an underlying reason to why you are so hesitant to use a SERM? i mean i know you dont think you need it but its always better to be safe than sorry what happens if you are the one breast feeding the lil one? *knock on wood
Do you think its toxicity is an issue?

 

[TheAnimalG]

is there an underlying reason to why you are so hesitant to use a SERM? i mean i know you dont think you need it but its always better to be safe than sorry what happens if you are the one breast feeding the lil one? *knock on wood
Do you think its toxicity is an issue?

Isn't illegality enough reason?

 

[pistonpump]

Isn't illegality enough reason?

oh that too. although ive never liked that reason and i always do illegal things because i say fvck the law and people telling me how i should live.

 

[EasyEJL]

No particular serious reason, honestly. Just thought that for all the whooha of the OTC serms, it would be nice to see someone actually get blood tests with just using them, and no serm. If HTPA function was the only issue at hand then definitely I wouldn't use the nolva. But with gyno as a potential issue, you all are right, its not worth the risk.

 

[EasyEJL]

MEASUREMENT UPDATE

Starting stats
Weight 199
Chest 44.25
Shoulders 49
L Bicep 15
R Bicep 15
L forearm 11.25
R forearm 11.25
L calf 15
R calf 15.5
waist where I wear pants - 37
@ belly button 38.75

Ending stats
Starting stats
Weight 203 +4 (with a mid cycle low of 189 for +14)
Chest 42 -2.25
Shoulders 50 +1
L Bicep 15 -0
R Bicep 14.5 -.5
L forearm 11.5 +.25
R forearm 12 +.75
L calf 15 0
R calf 15.5 +.25
waist where I wear pants - 36 -1
@ belly button 37.75 -1

So i'm up 4 pounds while being significantly smaller Note too that these end measurements are after eating a pretty decent breakfast, where the starts are empty. The 203lbs was from before breakfast, but I forgot about measuring till after. So the waist could be 1/4-1/2 in smaller if I was empty. Lost a lot off my chest, which is a good thing, it was all fat. Pec muscles are noticeably larger by feel than when I started.

Calves I think I worked out 2x in the 8 weeks. thank god for that little piece of good genetics. no testosterone, but big calves.

My crappy 1 point home caliper shows me as 18ish%, I get calipered at the gym tuesday. I was at 23% at the start of the log, so i would hope for a wee bit more than that in change from what I think the total LBM gain is, but we'll see. Kinda hoping for 17%. With that much loss on the chest, I think the multipoint caliper should show a bigger difference than my 1 point on abdomen.

Theres a few veins now that are slightly raised on my biceps cold, but none pop out heavy even with a pump. When I get low enough that they do, it will look pretty good. I have a weird set of boxes pattern on my right bicep that will look cool if it does show heavy

 

[sfearl1]

looks like a success to me! now let's get through post cycle!

 

[poopypants]

great job done easy! just about accomplished your goal perfectly of recomping heavily at first and then good clean bulking to finish it up! Not a feat many guys can do in a short 8 weeks!

 

[EasyEJL]

I put some new pics in the gallery. I'm still fatter than I want to be, but improving.

my wife kept trying to make me laugh on this one

dont think you can see it, but there are a couple of veins that are slightly above skin level there in the double bi.

still a long way to go. but a good bit more lean mass to work with now.

 

[bitterplacebo]

So these were the pictures you exchanged with the hot, twenty year old nanny applicant?

Good progress, broski.

 

[EasyEJL]

no, I used the pictures of tripdog with my face photoshopped on, i'm no fool

 

[T-Bone]

Good work Easy!. Don't use Nolva or a harsh chemical SERM. Use something OTC and see how it works. I'd bet the farm that AI post cycle support and Primordial performance products will work just a well without the negative side effects of "Reseach Chemicals"...Besides PCT is a new concept and it only helps you come back faster. You will come back eventually even if you use NOTHING. You may not keep as many gains, or strength, but I believe that most of the reasons you lose your gains is because of inadequate diet, training, and rest/sleep. Taking a research chemical SERM post cycle is not going to guarentee that you keep your gains and is not "healthy" or "good for you", least of all..."SAFE".

 

[celc5]

IMO the test boosting and HPTA recovery theory with serms is blown out of proportion. Your hpta will recover just fine with a well-planned cycle that isn't overkill followed by a well-planned post cycle diet, routine, and supplementation.

However, gyno and delayed gyno pop up ALL THE TIME with superdrol. If you have a serm, I have not heard 1 intelligent arguement that should sway you to not use it. I'm a firm believer that all 4 of the popular serms do an excellent job in gyno prevention.

I'm not buying your low baseline test arguement either Easy. Maybe you won't have estrogen that rebounds due to aromitazation from test, but that doesn't mean there aren't other mechanisms that instigate estrogen rebound after superdrol.

Btw, excellent progress Easy! Well done cycle :clap2:

 

[poopypants]

if they werent "safe" why are they given to breast cancer patients? and they have been noted to improve lipid profiles dramatically.... so how is that not "healthy"???

you may have an individual concern due to liver stress they can cause since youve had liver problems but thats not everyone and for the most part this negative impact on the liver is minimal, especially with toremifene, and i have blood to back this up.

 

[poopypants]

Great progress Easy, love the smiley mean guy flex, lol. def impressive double bi too, gettin some guns on ya there brudda!

 

[T-Bone]

if they werent "safe" why are they given to breast cancer patients? and they have been noted to improve lipid profiles dramatically.... so how is that not "healthy"???

you may have an individual concern due to liver stress they can cause since youve had liver problems but thats not everyone and for the most part this negative impact on the liver is minimal, especially with toremifene, and i have blood to back this up.

Well maybe if they are prescribed by a doctor they can be safe. Its not safe to take a prescription that is not prescribed to you from a research chemical company website....That in and of itself is just not safe. There are tons of side effects for these research chemicals. In the situation in which the majority of people use these products on here(for pct) I believe the risks outweigh the benefits. Having a doctor prescribe it to a breast cancer patient is an entirely different situation!.

 

[matthew76]

if they werent "safe" why are they given to breast cancer patients? and they have been noted to improve lipid profiles dramatically.... so how is that not "healthy"???

OK Poop, if your DR scripts this to you and you get it from a pharmacy, it may be safe - Of course given that you have breast cancer. I do not trust Research Chemicals, and for the people that do, I've got some time share property on Mars that I would like to sell...

 

[TheAnimalG]

if they werent "safe" why are they given to breast cancer patients?

Well, when you have cancer, there are a lot of things that a doctor is willing to give you because the other option is less desirable.

It's like having the choice between crashing into a tree and crashing into a fence. One is much more likely to kill you.

That being said, if I would rather have one on hand than not. But until I can obtain them legally, that probably won't happen.

 

[pistonpump]

they used to and maybe still approve LSD use for terminal ill cancer patients. Far out!

 

[pistonpump]

hell, do it without a SERM and get the bloodwork results out, for Primordial's sake, if successful they should give you free product as im sure their sales will go up.

 

[bitterplacebo]

and if it's not successful, you might get some free product also...

 

[bitterplacebo]

I bet the ultimate warrior would know what to do:
[email protected]

 

[sfearl1]

hell, do it without a SERM and get the bloodwork results out, for Primordial's sake, if successful they should give you free product as im sure their sales will go up.

good post

 

[poopypants]

Well, when you have cancer, there are a lot of things that a doctor is willing to give you because the other option is less desirable.

It's like having the choice between crashing into a tree and crashing into a fence. One is much more likely to kill you.

That being said, if I would rather have one on hand than not. But until I can obtain them legally, that probably won't happen.

you guys are foolish if you think its illegal to obtain any research chemical. it IS illegal for you to consume them yourself and or feed to an animal(ie. dont say you r using them on your pet rat/monkey ect). they are only legal to be used in controlled expeirements on tissue samples. They are completely legal to obtain and be in possesion of as well.

there is no way to drug test for these compounds after their halflife has been expended.... maybe no way whatsoever even within its halflife, its not considered a scheduled drug so no reason for them to make a drug test for it.

 

[EasyEJL]

and if it's not successful, you might get some free product also...

like bras?

 

[bitterplacebo]

like bras?

got milk?

 

[celc5]

T-bone, you must have 100% faith in companies that market the current designers and your OTC post cycle products. If you are willing to gamble and take an oral designer steroid with as much quality control issues as many of these companies have had, then there's no more or less gamble taking the research chem.

Although this is substantially less than fact, I have never seen evidence of a research serm that didn't come up to be what it says when it comes from the more popular sites. I've heard rumblings of occasional potency issues, but again, never mislabeling. I'd be all ears if you know of specific examples that suggest otherwise bro.

Bitterplacebo, that is some funny stuff! Congratulations, you've won a spray bottle of sustain and a set of man boobs :lol:

Easy, I got one for ya. Start a poll. Say "I just took superdrol and I have a serm. Should I use my serm? Yes or no" That should put this debate to rest.

 

[EasyEJL]

nah, no need for a poll really. Had it been epistane, or halo or any of a number of other designers it probably would be different, but superdrol is superdrol. I'll go with the 10mg a day for 3 weeks. should be enough to avoid anything in the way of gyno, but not enough to cause issues on its own or even necessarily provide a huge boost in test. so that will need to still come from the sustain + toco-8

 

[thewilman]

Nice work E! :thumbsup:

 

[EasyEJL]

forgot these little tidbits of ending stats

Blood pressure 120/72 (lower than my 11 year old daughter)
Resting pulse 55
waking temp average 95.6


blood pressure got as high as 135/85 on cycle, this is actually slightly lower than my norm, used to sit around 125/80.

 

[matthew76]

E, did you use the original SD?

Your values look great considering your coming off of a cycle.

 

[EasyEJL]

it was a combination of the 2 originals, designer supplements 12.5s and AX 10s. I did use cycle support the whole time as well, plus high dose fish oil. Its comical that my daughters blood pressure is higher. just a little (I think hers was 123/73)

 

[EasyEJL]

Caliper results at the gym were 20%. So kinda sucks as I think its lower. Still that definitely puts me over 160lbs lean mass. I know that to get to and maintain where I want to be I need at least 165-170 in lean mass, as I'd like to be where abs are decently visible (don't have to be true 6 pack) and still be in the 190ish area. I've had such a hard time even temporarily going below 195 that I need to just live with that, and raise lean mass instead so maybe another 4-8lbs lean mass in the next 4 months? and loosing fat at the same time can get me there.

 

[poopypants]

sounds good Easy, just keep at it my man, you got all the tools and apply them so its just a matter of time. So whats up next after PCT??? and what are the exact pct supps your using?

 

[EasyEJL]

actually, i'm moving forwards into new log now

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/85833-x-factor-1250mg.html

theres some stuff i'm not exactly sure how or when I will work in yet, hence the twists.

 

[poopypants]

actually, i'm moving forwards into new log now

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/85833-x-factor-1250mg.html

theres some stuff i'm not exactly sure how or when I will work in yet, hence the twists.

saweet, I will hit it up!

 

[pistonpump]

Caliper results at the gym were 20%. So kinda sucks as I think its lower. Still that definitely puts me over 160lbs lean mass. I know that to get to and maintain where I want to be I need at least 165-170 in lean mass, as I'd like to be where abs are decently visible (don't have to be true 6 pack) and still be in the 190ish area. I've had such a hard time even temporarily going below 195 that I need to just live with that, and raise lean mass instead so maybe another 4-8lbs lean mass in the next 4 months? and loosing fat at the same time can get me there.

could you have a thyroid problem? ever get bloodwork on that sort of thing? I dont understand how people can workout, eat clean, and still have a good amount of fat on them.

 

[EasyEJL]

could you have a thyroid problem? ever get bloodwork on that sort of thing? I dont understand how people can workout, eat clean, and still have a good amount of fat on them.

I think I do have a thyroid issue. My waking body temp is 95.5, my completely resting pulse is around 55. So my maintenance cals are a good bit lower than you'd expect. I'll get it tested next round of blood tests with my regular doctor in the next few months.

But actually the bodyfat % has been on a steady downward path. Just I started with a lot more than I thought I did

 

[TheAnimalG]

I think I do have a thyroid issue. My waking body temp is 95.5, my completely resting pulse is around 55. So my maintenance cals are a good bit lower than you'd expect. I'll get it tested next round of blood tests with my regular doctor in the next few months.

But actually the bodyfat % has been on a steady downward path. Just I started with a lot more than I thought I did

Wow that seems low.

I did a search on Google and found this:

A reading between 97.6 and 98.2 degrees F is normal. Readings below 97.6 may indicate hypothyroidism.

I also read somewhere that every degree below that is 10% reduced metabolism.

 

[poopypants]

sounds like the 250% boost in thyroid activity with jacobs new Recreate thermo may be perfecct for you Easy my friend!