Nutrient Timing Article by John Berardi...

[kwyckemynd00]

Just wondering what you've got to say about Berardi's nutrient timing writeup

If you haven't read it, it's a worth while read.

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[meowmeow]

Those articles are based on John Ivy's book Nutrient Timing: The Future of Sports Nutrition.

Therein Ivy recommends the intake of glutamine powder as part of a post-workout shake. He states that this is necessary to immediatly restore the immune system after it is supressed from exercise-induced low glutamine levels.

Does anyone think that failure to follow this protocol is resulting in increased colds and flu caught at the gym?

Does anyone think that adding glutamine post-workout will significantly aid in keeping sickness away?

 

[excalibur]

good read it were almost identical to my nutrition rutine
even the pre/during post WO nutrition as well exept that I use fruit juice for carbs pre, during and carbs from ricemilk, oatmilk post wo. Protien I use is hydrolyzed whey/kasein molekyl weight less than 1500 daltons. I am about to start add some EAA asvell to the miks to see what happends..

I even use 1 glucophage xr 30min pre training to boost insulin sensity

works well fore me..

 

[Nullifidian]

Personally I think glutamine is bunk. Long ago it became scripture and its like no one wants to doubt it despite the fact that it is an absolutely positively 100% UNessential amino acid. Your body can and DOES produce glutamine from virtually any disgestable amino acid. The largest portion of your protein intake becomes glutamine. Why take glutamine when you could just down some whey instead??

 

[kwyckemynd00]

That was "that" particular authors position. Berardi was "counsel" to the production of the book, and he didn't go shooting off about super-glutamine anywhere.

Either way, what about the "article"?

 

[gixxman]

I dunno i don't take glutimine and i seriously never get sick...people said it relieved soreness but i don't really find it to do that either....i mean addition of more of it to a protein shake...i agree with null u can get enough through your whey

 

[Mach .78]

That was "that" particular authors position. Berardi was "counsel" to the production of the book, and he didn't go shooting off about super-glutamine anywhere.

Either way, what about the "article"?

Loved it. Book marked it. I think that is some sound nutritional advice. I'll modify what I'm doing now and follow it. Reps to you sir. Just what I was looking for tonight.

 

[jonny21]

Either way, what about the "article"?

It makes some valid points. I am still not a big fan of that many CHO's around the workout. But then again it depends on the workout. When I start cycling in the summer I cannot get enough CHO's. So you still have to adapt to your routine/style. If I have learned anything over the years it is that there are many ways to produce solid results. That calorie calculator is way off IMO

 

[kwyckemynd00]

It makes some valid points. I am still not a big fan of that many CHO's around the workout. But then again it depends on the workout. When I start cycling in the summer I cannot get enough CHO's. So you still have to adapt to your routine/style. If I have learned anything over the years it is that there are many ways to produce solid results. That calorie calculator is way off IMO

What do you have against CHOs around a workout?

I know berardi says he's big on taking in a diluted CHO/Protein drink during and immediately after a workout.

I believe it was 0.4g/kg of protein and 0.8g/kg of carbs (majority malto, some dextrose) all in 1 liter of water. You'd taking in two of them total, one during and one after your workout, before your PWO meal. I kind of liked the idea, so I think I'm going to give it a try when I get some extra cash.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

...That calorie calculator is way off IMO

That's what I initially thought, but then I realized it may not be 'that' far off. I'm getting about 4100kcal maintenance cals, including all daily activity, and when I was a little larger and on bobo's diet, I was actually leaning out around that many kcals.

 

[jonny21]

What do you have against CHOs around a workout?

I know berardi says he's big on taking in a diluted CHO/Protein drink during and immediately after a workout.

I believe it was 0.4g/kg of protein and 0.8g/kg of carbs (majority malto, some dextrose) all in 1 liter of water. You'd taking in two of them total, one during and one after your workout, before your PWO meal. I kind of liked the idea, so I think I'm going to give it a try when I get some extra cash.

I have nothing at all against CHO's. I Love 'Em. I just do not think it necessary to sip .8g/kg of them during workout, I will clarify that I am referring to my resistance training workouts. I do something very similar to what he rec'd during my 50-100 mile cycling days.

The calorie calculator has me up @ ~4300 calories on resistance training only days. That is a formula for fat IMO. At least it is for me regardless of how super clean the diet may be.

After 28yo things changed. Up until that point I could eat whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted with little worry that it would find it's way to my handles. I was just recently eating 3200 calories/day and noticed increased deposition of unwelcome adipose on my handles. Things work differently for different individuals.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Accidentally edited this post with an inteded reply... well, here is the reply :blink: I feel dumb.

But, people are all different, too...

<-- everybody seemed to miss this.

And, my point was, I never thought that I'd lean out at such a ridiculous kcal intake, a diet that someone else made me proved me otherwise. So, now when I hear "this many kcal is too much and you'll just get fat" I think twice.

And, obviously your metabolism will be slower than it was when you were in your 20s. I'm not trying to tell you your diet isn't what YOU need, and I wasn't arguing with anybody.

 

[jonny21]

I think that's a 'what you eat' issue. I can gain fat off of that many kcals, too eating what seems to be healthy. Somehow< i was leaning out at (depending on the day of the week) between 3900 and 4500kcals. I don't think I can eat that strict forever though :blink: But, people are all different, too...

What is your opinion on my 3200 kcal diet? Do you feel that it is not clean enough? I was not happy with the meal replacement of a Met-Rx bar but I needed a bar type MRP since I am running around a hospital without a break for the first 5 hours of my day. I have subsequently changed the bar to one with less CHO's and have removed the CHO's from my post workout shake. Altogether I removed ~500 kcals and I am still gaining just no extra fat around the handles.

Scroll down to bottom and click on diet.
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[Basso]

I think that's a 'what you eat' issue. I can gain fat off of that many kcals, too eating what seems to be healthy. Somehow< i was leaning out at (depending on the day of the week) between 3900 and 4500kcals. I don't think I can eat that strict forever though :blink: But, people are all different, too...

Your little discussion made me chuckle, a 22yr old and a 38yr old arguing cal intake? I always laughed at dem old guys saying wait to your my age, the weight doesn't come off so easy! When I got into my latter 30's a I found this to be less of an urban legend and more fact. Another fact is that my maintenance cal intake is lower now then when I was 25. I don't have the ability to burn fat like someone at 25, therefore even maintenance cal have to decrease. Yes it's what you eat and yes the calc needs to be adjusted for age. i.e. I can eat 2500 cal a day super clean for 4 weeks and only lose 2 pds (6meal/day 350-400p/day). So 240 to 238 in 4 weeks, when I was 25 I competed PL at 198lbs I could train at 210-215 and get to 198 in 1-2 weeks, just by cutting back on sugar and grease (my diet totally sucked back then).
The point of my post is JBs articles can be a great source of information, he's a smart guy. The bottom line though, we each need to experiment with our diet, timing, cal intake, etc and find what works for us. Some things I do go totally against JB and some are right in line with his thinking, but for you 2 to question each other on cal intake is not really an argument that makes much sense to me, 16yrs makes a huge diverence in how you approach a diet!

Just my O

 

[jonny21]

but for you 2 to question each other on cal intake is not really an argument that makes much sense to me, 16yrs makes a huge diverence in how you approach a diet!

Just my O

And that is an excellent opinion. The whole point of discussions like this is to weed out a lot of unecessary bull****. Those with different experiences get to voice them and hopefully we can see that there really is no cookie cutter approach and that things are highly individual depending on a multitude of factors.

Hopefully all differences in opinion are not considered an argument. I am not attempting to change anyones opinion or viewpoint about their caloric needs or propensity for fat gain. Just expressing mine. If my comments appeared in anyway inflammatory/argumentative that was not the intent. I have a good working knowledge of nutrition and was stating my observations/experience based on being a 38yo male.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for many on this board and kwyckemynd00 happens to be one of them otherwise I would not have even participated in this discussion.

 

[Basso]

And that is an excellent opinion. The whole point of discussions like this is to weed out a lot of unecessary bull****. Those with different experiences get to voice them and hopefully we can see that there really is no cookie cutter approach and that things are highly individual depending on a multitude of factors.

Hopefully all differences in opinion are not considered an argument. I am not attempting to change anyones opinion or viewpoint about their caloric needs or propensity for fat gain. Just expressing mine. If my comments appeared in anyway inflammatory/argumentative that was not the intent. I have a good working knowledge of nutrition and was stating my observations/experience based on being a 38yo male.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for many on this board and kwyckemynd00 happens to be one of them otherwise I would not have even participated in this discussion.

I was using the word "arguement", I could have used "discussion", I was not suggesting a fighting arguement, I was just throwing in my opinion and experience, wasn't trying to start something, my point was that age can make a big difference in diet requirements and that JB is worth reading!

 

[CROWLER]

Your little discussion made me chuckle, a 22yr old and a 38yr old arguing cal intake? I always laughed at dem old guys saying wait to your my age, the weight doesn't come off so easy! When I got into my latter 30's a I found this to be less of an urban legend and more fact. Another fact is that my maintenance cal intake is lower now then when I was 25. I don't have the ability to burn fat like someone at 25, therefore even maintenance cal have to decrease. Yes it's what you eat and yes the calc needs to be adjusted for age. i.e. I can eat 2500 cal a day super clean for 4 weeks and only lose 2 pds (6meal/day 350-400p/day). So 240 to 238 in 4 weeks, when I was 25 I competed PL at 198lbs I could train at 210-215 and get to 198 in 1-2 weeks, just by cutting back on sugar and grease (my diet totally sucked back then).
The point of my post is JBs articles can be a great source of information, he's a smart guy. The bottom line though, we each need to experiment with our diet, timing, cal intake, etc and find what works for us. Some things I do go totally against JB and some are right in line with his thinking, but for you 2 to question each other on cal intake is not really an argument that makes much sense to me, 16yrs makes a huge diverence in how you approach a diet!

Just my O

How different different bodies can be. I am older than you,infact I am a grampa

If I reduced my cals to 2500 a day in a month I would be skin and bones. I can cut on 3500 and lose a couple pounds a week with no cardio. Infact I was cutting with skip about 2 years ago on 4000 cals with just 1 hour of walking as my cardio. To bulk I go 5000 to 6000 cals including pizza and icecream and don't get much over 13%.


CROWLER

 

[kwyckemynd00]

But, people are all different, too...

<-- everybody seemed to miss this.

And, my point was, I never thought that I'd lean out at such a ridiculous kcal intake, a diet that someone else made me proved me otherwise. So, now when I hear "this many kcal is too much and you'll just get fat" I think twice.

And, obviously your metabolism will be slower than it was when you were in your 20s. I'm not trying to tell you your diet isn't what YOU need, and I wasn't arguing with anybody.

edit: Oh, and Johnny21, I don't know why you think his calculator was off in the first place, I calculated your "estimated" kcal intake off of his calc and it was 3400 kcal for maint. lol

That's only 200 above what you're taking.

Back to the original 'nutrient timing' article...lol. I don't think I got one response that actually discussed nutrient timing....oh well. Time to go back to posting in the adult section, I always get the responses I"m looking for there j/k

 

[jonny21]

I know I started out discussing it but somehow got off topic. when I use his calculator I come up with ~4300 calories

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I'll answer. His article is based on good information but slightly flawed as he was doing work for Biotest to push Surge!. His article has many valid points but if you look at some of the studies he references his conclusions are somewhat....stretched. If you want to have a clear interpretation then go to the authors which would predominantly be Tipton (which Ivy followed) and see what he says. Tipton has made is known (I don't have the transcipts) that even with his own studies that the timing would have to followed be an extremely long period of time (24 months I tihnk he said) to have any results that showed a significiant improvement. So if Tipton himself doens't put much relevance on precise timing and pricese carbohydrate amounts then we probably shouldn't either. Technically much of what Berardi says is right, althougb somewhat exaggerated, but the differences that you will see is probably non-existant.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I'll answer. His article is based on good information but slightly flawed as he was doing work for Biotest to push Surge!. His article has many valid points but if you look at some of the studies he references his conclusions are somewhat....stretched. If you want to have a clear interpretation then go to the authors which would predominantly be Tipton (which Ivy followed) and see what he says. Tipton has made is known (I don't have the transcipts) that even with his own studies that the timing would have to followed be an extremely long period of time (24 months I tihnk he said) to have any results that showed a significiant improvement. So if Tipton himself doens't put much relevance on precise timing and pricese carbohydrate amounts then we probably shouldn't either. Technically much of what Berardi says is right, althougb somewhat exaggerated, but the differences that you will see is probably non-existant.

Thanks

And about Surge!, well.... I blocked Surge! out of my brain... I forgot it was even in the article. :lol:

 

[Basso]

I like the basic concepts of what the articles say, I eat a carb meal prior to WO and liquid Carb/Protien immediately after. Within the next 3 hours I eat 3 meals, MRP, Carb/Protien, Fat/Protien. I've been doing this for the past year and have been getting good results. I have been able to raise my caloric intake on WO days by about 500cals. I'm fortunate to be working out midmorning which helps with the timing of meals. I take in 8-10 meals total on a WO day. At this time I'm bulking so I've found that 3500-4000cals keep the weight coming without giving me too much extra around the middle (currently 255lbs). When I start cutting the meal#s will stay the same but I'll cut the cals to 2500-3000 until I get stuck.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Awesome, thx for the input. I'm really interested in trying out the during and post workout drink idea. I actually have a hard time coming home and eating right away, so I think that could be benificial to me.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Thanks

And about Surge!, well.... I blocked Surge! out of my brain... I forgot it was even in the article. :lol:

It all had to do with Surge! having the precise ratio and it was scientifically backed...blah blah blah....

It was a nice marketing tool that had some basis to it but in reality the "precise ratios" won't do much more than a scoop of whey and some skim milk.

As long as you have adequate carbs/protein around your most active times then you are fine. If you are measuring precise ratios then you are just bored

Results are based on caloric and macro intake over 24-72 hour period rather than a 2 hour period IMO.


Since that article has been written there are even more studies showing that pre-workout is more important but even then your are splitting hairs.

 

[Basso]

It all had to do with Surge! having the precise ratio and it was scientifically backed...blah blah blah....

It was a nice marketing tool that had some basis to it but in reality the "precise ratios" won't do much more than a scoop of whey and some skim milk.

As long as you have adequate carbs/protein around your most active times then you are fine. If you are measuring precise ratios then you are just bored

Results are based on caloric and macro intake over 24-72 hour period rather than a 2 hour period IMO.


Since that article has been written there are even more studies showing that pre-workout is more important but even then your are splitting hairs.

Yeh I remember that article on T-Nation, I like some Whey/fruit or Carboplex, a bit cheaper then Surge.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

It all had to do with Surge! having the precise ratio and it was scientifically backed...blah blah blah....

It was a nice marketing tool that had some basis to it but in reality the "precise ratios" won't do much more than a scoop of whey and some skim milk.

As long as you have adequate carbs/protein around your most active times then you are fine. If you are measuring precise ratios then you are just bored

Results are based on caloric and macro intake over 24-72 hour period rather than a 2 hour period IMO.


Since that article has been written there are even more studies showing that pre-workout is more important but even then your are splitting hairs.

Ahh, gotcha...

Guess i just need to shut up and eat :lol: But, right now, financially I'm eating cow dung (avoiding curse filter, thx :rasp: j/k), so I'm not really eating or lifting, so I'm just trying to keep myself busy in the meantime I may be wrong, but I just can't bring myself to workuot like a madman when I'm not eating, just seems counterproductive.

Anyway, thx for the input!