nolva+trib=bad

[thebigt]

i just read that taking trib products will negate the effect of nolva. any input of anything else to be avoided while on nolva would be appreciated. this is a real shocker to me as i regularly use a trib product on pct.

 

[TripDog]

Huh, mind providing a link to this.

 

[MuscleBound1337]

Yeah I read youtr post in another thread that said this and I was searching google looking for any evidence on this claim and couldn't find anyone else saying that..

I just started my PCT with nolva and am taking trib.. So I'd like to get to the bottom of this as soon as possible.

 

[thebigt]

Yeah I read youtr post in another thread that said this and I was searching google looking for any evidence on this claim and couldn't find anyone else saying that..

I just started my PCT with nolva and am taking trib.. So I'd like to get to the bottom of this as soon as possible.

i got this from a post by dinoii. my aunt has cancer and is taking tamox, on the instructions it said notify doctor of any herbal supplements you are taking as they may negate the effects of the tamoxifen, then i read a post by dinoii saying same thing. believe me guys, i am shocked that this is true. i use trib on almost every pct. what i am pissed about is if this is true, why haven't people got the word out to us.

 

[BigKrabbe]

I do not see how it possibly could. There is no way trib negates nolvadex, if anything nolva is the more powerful compound and would negate tribulus, but even that is not very propable. Tribulus is supposed to act by raising lh thus increasing free testosterone. Tribulus could potentially raise estrogen levels as well, but if anything nolvadex would just negate that effect of the trib. Just my .02 cents and most of that is my opinion, but there is plenty of studies backing up trib. I have never seen a study testing trib negating nolvadex but am on the search now!

 

[MuscleBound1337]

Well that's pretty standard for any prescription drug ,they want to know what all your taking incase there is any known problem. Just because it says to notify your doc of herbs ur taking doesn't mean any herb is going to negate the effects.. If you search for trib and nolca pct all you find is good reviews.. What did dinoii say? Have a link?

 

[thebigt]

Well that's pretty standard for any prescription drug ,they want to know what all your taking incase there is any known problem. Just because it says to notify your doc of herbs ur taking doesn't mean any herb is going to negate the effects.. If you search for trib and nolca pct all you find is good reviews.. What did dinoii say? Have a link?

i checked with dinoii, he says he can't recall saying trib has that effect, but says that dhea + nolva does= bad. maybe i got it wrong...thanks guys for setting me straight, i also use trib on pct.

 

[TripDog]

i checked with dinoii, he says he can't recall saying trib has that effect, but says that dhea + nolva does= bad. maybe i got it wrong...thanks guys for setting me straight, i also use trib on pct.

Dhea and nolva bad???? I seriously think you need to question your source.

 

[ohiostate2827]

can i just take nolva by itself?

 

[RenegadeRows]

can i just take nolva by itself?

Yes.

 

[VINYL]

how about Divanol in pct (mass fx, activate etc etc) I heard that taking these in PCT is bad because it actually just increases your free test and not you actual test, and your body reacts by having some shutdown. Has anyone ever heard this before and how much truth to this is there?

 

[TripDog]

how about Divanol in pct (mass fx, activate etc etc) I heard that taking these in PCT is bad because it actually just increases your free test and not you actual test, and your body reacts by having some shutdown. Has anyone ever heard this before and how much truth to this is there?

I recall Dr.D saying around week 3 its ok to start activate, but im not sure how this stands today though.

 

[jasonschaffin]

Dhea and nolva bad???? I seriously think you need to question your source.

Dinoiii is a pretty smart dude. From what I can tell he deals w/all sorts of people coming off different AAS cycles and has lab reports on many different drugs used to bring the HPTA back. I believe that he says that the DHEA has some sort of estrogen activity that could negate/lower the effect of the SERM. I don't know at what dose he says this happens or to exactly what effect. If we can get him over here I'm sure he could explain 1,000,000x better. Or you could ask him in his own subforum, probably the easiest way to a good answer.

 

[jasonschaffin]

I posted this many moons ago and no one ever responded. I can't see how DHEA could be good for PCT though.

DHEA in PCT?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

: Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2003 May 30;203(1-2):13-23. Links
Evidence that dehydroepiandrosterone, DHEA, directly inhibits GnRH gene expression in GT1-7 hypothalamic neurons.Cui H, Lin SY, Belsham DD.
Department of Physiology, Toronto General Hospital Research Institute, University Health Network, University of Toronto, Medical Sciences Building 3247A, 1 King's College Circle, Toronto, ON, Canada M5S 1A8.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) has been reported to have diverse effects on overall physiology, although its mechanism of action and specific receptor are not yet known. We have used the immortalized, clonal GT1-7 hypothalamic neurons to study DHEA effects on gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) gene expression. DHEA (10(-4) M) downregulates GnRH transcription by 39, 70 and 83% at 24, 36, and 48 h, respectively, while DHEA-sulphate had no effect. Hydroxyflutamide a specific androgen receptor (AR) antagonist, and cyproterone acetate or trilostane, both inhibitors of 3 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase/delta 4,5 isomerase, the rate-limiting enzyme for the conversion of DHEA to sex steroids, did not affect the ability of DHEA to downregulate GnRH gene expression. We found that GT1-7 cells did not express aromatase, thereby precluding conversion to estrogen. Analysis of [(14)C] DHEA metabolism by thin layer chromatography indicates that the main metabolites produced are 7 alpha- and 7 beta-hydroxy DHEA, and 7-oxo DHEA, although these steroids were not able to repress GnRH gene expression alone. Cell viability studies indicated that the transcriptional repression observed is not due to GT1-7 cell death. Interestingly, SV40 T-antigen mRNA levels, under the control of 2.3 kb of the rat GnRH gene 5' regulatory region, are also repressed by DHEA. Our studies indicate that DHEA has direct effects on GnRH transcription that appear to be unique from those observed after conversion to other steroidogenic compounds.

PMID: 12782399 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Hank Vangut]

yes, Dinoii is against using nolva and dhea together.
stating that dhea will negate the effects of nolva.
which comming from him and his numerous clinical studies i would have to believe.

however, this doesn't necessarily mean dhea is bad to include in pct. many respected physicians and experts believe dhea is very helpful during this time. swale and dr d come to mind.

i will also add that dinoii is not a fan of either nolva or dhea in general.
this is one area that there seems to be dissagrement among the 'experts'

 

[TripDog]

Personally I don't listen to someone giving advice without ever having used an anabolic substance. First hand experience is worth 10x more than text book preachers. Anyone can read a book and say do this or don't do that, does that mean they're knowledgeable or that they can read out of a book?

Dr.D FTW

 

[VINYL]

Personally I don't listen to someone giving advice without ever having used an anabolic substance. First hand experience is worth 10x more than text book preachers. Anyone can read a book and say do this or don't do that, does that mean they're knowledgeable or that they can read out of a book?

Dr.D FTW

AMEN

 

[BigJoeski3]

I recall Dr.D saying around week 3 its ok to start activate, but im not sure how this stands today though.

Patrick Arnold (knows his ****) basically laid out a pct protocol for superdrol in an MD mag just a few issues ago,

Week 1,2,3 - a "good dose" of a serm (tamox)
Week 4 - serm, plus an AI
Week 5,6,7 - AI, plus a SHBG binding compound

I had used Activate before for pct and had so-so results until the end of the bottle. But i figure i had so-so results because I used it right away post cycle, and like I said it worked better near the end of the bottle, it makes sense

 

[TripDog]

Patrick Arnold (knows his ****) basically laid out a pct protocol for superdrol in an MD mag just a few issues ago,

Week 1,2,3 - a "good dose" of a serm (tamox)
Week 4 - serm, plus an AI
Week 5,6,7 - AI, plus a SHBG binding compound

I had used Activate before for pct and had so-so results until the end of the bottle. But i figure i had so-so results because I used it right away post cycle, and like I said it worked better near the end of the bottle, it makes sense

Pat is a smart guy, and I like reading his articles. That pct idea looks like a great method.

 

[TheNoid]

Personally I don't listen to someone giving advice without ever having used an anabolic substance. First hand experience is worth 10x more than text book preachers. Anyone can read a book and say do this or don't do that, does that mean they're knowledgeable or that they can read out of a book?

Dr.D FTW

You should probably actually know who your talking about without making generalizations.

Most if not all "cycle" planning is built off bits and pieces from studies completed by individuals who likely dont even weight train. So even though you "think" your not listening to someone who has never used an anabolic substance you are essentially following a cycle outlined by the same people.

Its okay though the corn people stilll love you. :hammer:

 

[TripDog]

You should probably actually know who your talking about without making generalizations.

Most if not all "cycle" planning is built off bits and pieces from studies completed by individuals who likely dont even weight train. So even though you "think" your not listening to someone who has never used an anabolic substance you are essentially following a cycle outlined by the same people.

Its okay though the corn people stilll love you. :hammer:

Sorry to diss your boyfriend bro, I didnt think you'd take it that hard....:toofunny:

 

[Trauma1]

Patrick Arnold (knows his ****) basically laid out a pct protocol for superdrol in an MD mag just a few issues ago,

Week 1,2,3 - a "good dose" of a serm (tamox)
Week 4 - serm, plus an AI
Week 5,6,7 - AI, plus a SHBG binding compound

I had used Activate before for pct and had so-so results until the end of the bottle. But i figure i had so-so results because I used it right away post cycle, and like I said it worked better near the end of the bottle, it makes sense

I saw it, pretty good read.

 

[TripDog]

The Truth about Steroid Expert Anthony Roberts

Here is another great example of douchbags in the steroid world. I just stumbled across this article and thought it was relevant.





****A Warning to All Bodybuilders !!! Read and Spread the Word!!!****


Meet Anthony Roberts. He writes books and articles on steroids. The accomplishments he lists have included being an elite competitive athlete, training elite competitive athletes and being a MENSA member. He charges $200 per hour for advice! Before you read another word from Anthony or spend another dime, you need to know the truth about Anthony Roberts. Find out who he really is and spread the word.

Lie # 1 His name is Anthony Roberts.

Truth: Though he swears to not hide his real identity and write under his real name, it is a lie. His real name is Anthony Connors. He is 27 years old and lives in Hasbrouck Heights NJ, with…his mommy.


Lie # 2 “Anthony Roberts is an elite level competitive athlete who claims that he can play any sport at an all-star level”

Truth: Anthony played rugby in college at Seton Hall University. Only problem is, not only is it NOT a Division 1 sport at Seton Hall like Anthony says, Seton Hall doesn’t even have a rugby team! It’s a CLUB SPORT that anybody can join just like the Chess Club or the Scuba Club! After college, Anthony did play a brief and crappy year as a minor level rugby player for two different teams in New Zealand before being tossed off back to America. He says a finger injury ended his career. He now plays for a pay-to-play adult club in Bayonne New Jersey the Bayonne Bombers. This is like the rugby club Anthony joined in college, but worse. It is for old guys that want to play on the weekends!

Lie #3 “Anthony Roberts is an elite level coach”

Truth: Anthony coaches the INTERMURAL rugby team at Kings Point College in NY. Wow! What kind of loser would brag that an intermural team is considered “Elite Level”? Can I have your autograph, Mr. Connors er…Roberts?

Roster

Look at all the old fat dudes on this “elite” team!

Lie #4 “Anthony Roberts is a genius and a MENSA member”

Truth: Anthony only makes this claim when he is “Anthony Roberts”. His real academic resume under the name Anthony Connors never mentions it EVER - ANYWHERE. Why? Because it’s a lie and he made it up. Talk to him for 5 minutes and you’ll see it yourself. But you gotta pay the ****ing scammer $200 to learn that lesson.

Lie # 5 “Anthony is an advocate for the steroid community”

Truth: Forget his lack of understanding on the subject of steroids and the shitty dangerous advice he gives, Connors is a snitch who published an entire list of dealers with their real names. These were not scammers but standup guys that never ripped anyone off. It happened when these guys realized what a fraud Roberts was and called him out for plagiarizing work and his idiotic theories. So Anthony defended himself by snitching and putting them and all their customers in legal danger.

Lie # 6“Anthony is using his expertise to discovering supplements now!”

Truth: Connors/Roberts hasn’t discovered ****. He took his first and only supplement idea from a guest on an online radio show. This moron wouldn’t have discovered his own ******* had **** not started coming out of it first. Plus, he tells people to use his new pile
of **** supplement instead of HCG or Nolvadex for PCT. This supplement was NEVER tested in a SINGLE human, yet Anthony promises it will work twice as good as a prescription drug. He never tested it on people nor did any blood work. Why? Simple. The supplement is garbage, and Anthony is all about the cash and wants yours!

Lie # 7 “Anthony is a highly respected steroid guru and professional”

Truth: You can put this scammer’s work into 2 categories:

1. Inaccurate and dangerous
2. Copied from other people

Other real experts think he is stupid and gives dangerous advice. Here is what Dr. John Crisler (a real hormone doctor) had to say about Anthony:

“There isn't anyone who knows anything about this stuff who respects him. His MO is always the same. He has NEVER engaged in an intelligent debate about any of the goofy ideas he comes up with… He was just thrown off M&M. Fired, humiliated…. Sooner or later, ALL the Boards will realize what an idiot he is.

IMPO, Anthony Roberts is absolutely clueless. I have no idea where he comes up with the totally idiotic ideas he publishes. The fact he refuses to even answer any questions once he is questioned about them--but instead merely tries to ignite his flamethrower--warrants no respect from anyone.”

This doctor is not alone. Nobody with any credibility supports this loser.

Lie # 8 “You can Trust Him”

Truth: Anthony Roberts lies about who he is and what he has done because he wants your money. That’s why he and his co-writer Brian Clapp also run the website roidstore.com. It is just another one of their many ways to scam you out of your money! Take a look for yourself. The site sells products that have names and bottles that look almost identical to real steroids. But that is the rub. It is setup to trick newbies into thinking it sells steroids, but it’s really just useless herbs and vitamins packaged to look like steroids. You think you are buying 25mg methandrostenolone tablets, but get a bottle of vitamins with the name “meTanDESenolone”. What the **** is metandesenolone? Nothing but a way to rip you off for $85, that’s what. And lets not forget you can’t trust this liar because he’s a phoney and doesn’t even understand steroids.

 

[VINYL]

:toofunny:

Ive heard some **** about this guy before on other forums. Haha

 

[jasonschaffin]

Damn Trip. I have read some pretty good post from you before but are you seriously gonna try to compare Dana Houser (dinoiii) to Anthony Roberts? Thats just rediculous.

Unsubscribed to try to save myself from losing anymore IQ points.

 

[TripDog]

Damn Trip. I have read some pretty good post from you before but are you seriously gonna try to compare Dana Houser (dinoiii) to Anthony Roberts? Thats just rediculous.

Unsubscribed to try to save myself from losing anymore IQ points.

I'm not comparing anyone to anything, the topic kinda branched to "modern guru's" and I ran into that article. Take it or leave it I don't really care either way.

 

[dinoiii]

Personally I don't listen to someone giving advice without ever having used an anabolic substance. First hand experience is worth 10x more than text book preachers. Anyone can read a book and say do this or don't do that, does that mean they're knowledgeable or that they can read out of a book?

Some of us have true credential that would preclude listing certain somethings on public forums, plus delving time into forums daily is no easy task when you receive 1200 emails per day and see well over 30 on-site clients/patients at the same time.

I would stack up all these interactions against how my sole actions are in use of a compound. Using a solo compound makes you no "expert." I am still appauled by being called that in any event because it is far too often self-professed.

You can take my advice or leave it personally.





So this forum is clear on a few things because I do NOT tend to post here often, but was directed here tonight:

[1] DHEA + Nolva is not a good combo; believe in controlled environments or confounding variables - that is not for me to decide, but when your health is concerned, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a CLINICAL study as "book research" per se. Slightly odd comment.

[2] Nolva in general is NOT good on many accounts, but used simply because it is said necessary.

[3] If resorting to SERM use and you were an avid reader of mine to make such critique you would not only have the answer to the above, but also realize my suggestions are very similar to Swale in their regard IF employed. You'd further understand that it is on the level of apparent oddity that an OVERT generalization CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be sought out NOR recommended for the one-size-fits-all PCT. IT DOES NOT EXIST!!!



D_

 

[Hank Vangut]

D -
thanks for showing up over here. i enjoy reading your stuff....even though i don't understand most of it. lol.

would you say dhea + any serm = bad?
wouldn 't a smaller dose of dhea spaced between serm dosing help minimize interference?

HPTA-suppression typically leads to low levels of dhea. it seems like a perfect time to supplement with it.
it's just hard to ignore the hundreds of studies with millions of improved patcients backing up dhea supplementation.
and serum DHEA levels correlate better with sexual function in adult men better than any other homrone we mesure.

i personally feel much better using dhea in pct.
but if it really is bad i will change my ways.

 

[dinoiii]

D -
thanks for showing up over here. i enjoy reading your stuff....even though i don't understand most of it. lol.

Well, I apologize for that - this is NOT as easy a topic set as is often attempted to suggest as well. I ALWAYS ask for people to ask questions when they don't get something suggested however. Funny many may not ask, but will later suggest they have no idea what the hell I am talking about.

Mind you, my humor is pretty "raw" as I have been told, so you may not be dropping dead in laughter - but somewhere someone is laughing - probably me?!?

would you say dhea + any serm = bad?

Possibly, but I don't recommend DHEA in any event for many reasons - and I wouldn't be doing my job if I was merely offering experimental protocol to clients/patients now would I? But, hold on a second, I will expand upon this momentarily.

wouldn 't a smaller dose of dhea spaced between serm dosing help minimize interference?

Again, possibly, but it is unnecessary.

HPTA-suppression typically leads to low levels of dhea. it seems like a perfect time to supplement with it.
it's just hard to ignore the hundreds of studies with millions of improved patcients backing up dhea supplementation.
and serum DHEA levels correlate better with sexual function in adult men better than any other homrone we mesure.

i personally feel much better using dhea in pct.
but if it really is bad i will change my ways.

Let's figure out what the hell is happening, shall we?

There is interaction between two axes: HPTA and HPAA.

Any influence on the HPTA comes indirectly from the HPAA.

Now, for those familiar with the PCT: ACV series, you know that you are in a relative state of hypOadrenalism into early post-cycle time frames via cross-over feedback pathways - namely the zona reticularis of the adrenal gland. Replacing these suggested hormones in the first 2-2.5 weeks (seemingly independent of the agent used) based on ACTUAL LAB WORK (not some suspect "feeling" that things are back in "order" oftentimes suggested) would certainly make you feel GREAT! (hell, we can even treat depression with it for the same rationale)

Of course, cortisol is also LOW (contrary to the abuse of anti-cortisol agents due to lack of understanding of these pathways in the immediate post-cycle timeframe), but alas I digress...this is supplement advertising at its finest.

Still, if you weigh out this adrenal compensation (ie. - supply of exogenous DHEA, et al) vs. estrogenic control (and the side effects that may result - ie. - gyno, et al), I would bet sacrificing the use of the SERM is NOT something many would be willing to become a test subject for.

Of course, supplemental DHEA does actually increase IGF-1 levels, but this is just again one of those things that makes SERMs a less-than-stellar offering in many cases as well (plus you adapt to them and they are PRO-estrogenic at the level of muscle tissue, but I could go on all day and won't here). So, even in sacrifice of the SERM, maybe you are actually seeing results you would otherwise see (unsure)...but the question was concurrent employment, no?

Now, you're thinking - shoot we got this thing down pat, I'll just use my DHEA and ditch the SERM maybe - that is what you're saying Dr. Houser, isn't it? NOT ExACTLY!

What's one of the sure-fire things we know about lipids during cycle? The quoted "deleterious" effects include: decreased HDL, increased LDL, increased Tot. Cholesterol, etc... However, knowing too that 99% of dyslipidemia is found at the level of the liver - meaning if we try and "treat" cholesterol issues, we are screwing up the fundamental endogenous correction factor put in place by the body to supply androgen substrate. IT IS THAT WAY FOR A REASON...high cholesterol is the origin of increased test - leave it alone, or you will have difficulty re-gaining control of endocrinologic balance - and I don't necessarily mean with a 3-4 week OTC C17-alkylated nonsense cycle oftentimes suggested either ... I speak of real-world shutdown cases of scheule III's. (Ok, so that's not as clear a picture as it may have been pre-1990/2004...I'll give you that).

How bout blood sugar regulation? Mixed results - dependent upon both the clinical scenario AND dose employed; of course with increasing doses - you get worsening of blood sugar regulation, but this is probably the ONLY way you'd have appreciable effects on testicular output (again, crossover feedback). Again - worthless in the post-cycle time frame, when metabolic derrangement is at an all-time high as well.

I could go on all day about this for sure. The only thing is - the reality is the reality. DHEA is NOT a good agent in many instances in the post-cycle timeframe, DHEA is COMPLETELY terrible when employed with NOLVA (and possibly other SERMs, but I don't experiment on my patients).

But most of all - for someone to suggest the interactions I have are somehow not "real world" (and solely text-book knowledge) - whatever the hell that means, I'd likely think that person is suffering from their own testicular atrophy secondary to maybe overuse of DHEA coupled with far too many SERMs to grasp what the heck they are saying in the first place.


D_

 

[slow-mun]

What about Trib and Nolvadex?

 

[dinoiii]

What about Trib and Nolvadex?

You know the only theoretic suggestion that I could contribute here is that trib does, to some degree, promote elevations in DHEA (which is thought to be an alternative mechanism of action of the herbal favorite).

No controlled campaigns have been designed to evaluate said effects to date that I am aware, so it remains theory at best. I may very well (and for the reasons stated above) not suggest patients to use them concurrently, but true rationale remains unsupported.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Protodioscin from herbal plant Tribulus terrestris L improves the male sexual functions, probably via DHEA

A. Adimoelja and P. Ganeshan Adaikan
Airlangga University, Indonesia and National University of Singapore
in 6th Biennial Asian-Pacific Meeting on Impotence in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (1997)
Int. J. Impotence Research v9, supp 1 (1997)
SUMMARY

An interesting correlation of dehydroepiandrosterone-sulphate (DHEA-S) level with the incident of low sex drive and higher occurrence of impotence was discovered in studies with patients diagnosed with diabetes mellitus. To test further the relationship between DHEA-S and erectile dysfunction (ED), we conducted a clinical trial of 30 non-diabetic men with ED, 30 non-diabetic men without ED and 15 diabetic men with ED. These men are given extract of Tribulus terrestris (Libilov) at 3 x 250 mg / day for 3 weeks. The DHEA-S levels, as well as other blood and liver parameters were evaluated.

We found a significant increase of DHEA-S levels in diabetic and non-diabetic subjects after treatment, and a significant increase in the frequency of successful intercourse by 60% in both the diabetic and non-diabetic groups with or without ED.

INTRODUCTION

Tribulus terrestris L (TTL) is a herbal plant native to Bulgaria and China that has a long history as a powerful aphrodisiac and as a traditional medicine for treating male infertility (1,6). Recently, a chemical compound isolated from TTL called protodioscin (2) has been identified, purified and standardized as a phytochemical agent. In a multi-center, placebo-controlled, randomized, double-blind clinical trial, protodioscin proved to be an effective form of treatment for male infertility (2,6,7).

It is known that sufficient dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in the epididymis is necessary for the maturation process of spermatozoa (5). Furthermore, it has been speculated that in some idiopathic oligoasthenoteratozoospermia, male infertility is due to the low concentration of DHEA in the epididymis. In another clinical trial protodioscin is proved to increase the serum DHEA level of infertile men, without any change in the level of testosterone and other androgens. It is also shown that liver and kidney functions do not change significantly by protodioscin (1,2,6,7). The study concludes that protodioscin in TTL could be the precursor of DHEA in patients with low serum level of this hormone. As TTL has been known for its aphrodisiac quality, speculations have been made that its mechanism of action involves the conversion of protodioscin to DHEA. In turn, DHEA may increase cell membrane integrity and functions (3,4), thereby resulting in better sexual performance and the general feeling of well-being.

MATERIALS AND METHODS

The incident of erectile dysfunction (ED) is five times greater in patients diagnosed with diabetes mellitus as compared to non-diabetic patients. The correlation of lowered DHEA-sulphate (DHEA-S) in the diabetic patients and the increased frequency of ED in these patients suggests that improvement in DHEA-S level may constitute a treatment for ED.

This trial evaluated the DHEA-S levels of 30 non-diabetic male patients diagnosed with ED, 30 non-diabetic patients without ED, and 15 diabetic patients without ED. The group of non-diabetics with ED as well as the group of diabetics with ED were treated with TTL 3 times daily for 3 weeks (Libilov, 250 mg). The serum DHEA-S, testosterone, FSH, LH, prolactin, cholesterol, triglyceride, creatinine, Hb, and glucose levels, as well as liver and kidney functions were evaluated before and after treatment. These parameters were statistically tested (t-test for paired samples) to determine their statistical significance.

Finally, questionnaires were distributed to all men with ED to determine whether there was any improvement in their sexual functions

RESULTS

There was a significant difference (p < 0.01) in the serum DHEA-S levels in the non-diabetic men (101.5 ± 14.3) as compared to the diabetic patients without ED (77.5 ± 28.7). There was also a significant difference (p < 0.01) in the DHEA levels of non-diabetic men without ED with those with ED (41.8 ± 22.6). Furthermore, there was a significant difference in the serum DHEA-S levels of the diabetic patients without ED as compared to those with ED (32.2 ± 22.6). These data were summarized in Table I below.

Parameter [DHEA-S] in µg/dl
without ED with ED
Non-diabetics 101.5 ± 14.3 41.8 ± 22.6
Diabetics 77.5 ± 28.7 32.2 ± 24.8

Table I. [DHEA-S] concentration in µg/dl of non-diabetics with and without ED, and diabetics with and without ED before treatment with TTL (Libilov).

After treatment with TTL (Libilov), there were significant increases in the serum DHEA-S levels in the diabetic patients with and without ED (Table II).

Parameter [DHEA-S] in µg/dl
Before Treatment After Treatment
Non-diabetics with ED 41.8 ± 22.6 77.6 ± 25.9
Diabetics with ED 32.2 ± 24.8 50.0 ± 32.0

Table II. [DHEA-S] concentration in µg/dl of non-diabetics and diabetics with ED before and after treatment with TTL (Libilov).

There were no significant differences observed in the hormone (testosterone, FSH, LH and prolactine), cholesterol, triglycerides, and Hb levels, as well as in the liver (SGPT, SGOT, Gamma GT) and kidney (creatinine and urea) functions before and after TTL treatment in all ED patients.

During treatment, there was a significant increase in the frequency of successful sexual intercourse in 60% of the ED patients. This effect was reported from day 10 of treatment and onwards by both the diabetic and non-diabetic ED patients.

CONCLUSION

TTL improved the sexual drive in 60% of the ED cases. As this improvement in sexual function is accompanied by a significant improvement in the DHEA levels of these patients, we surmised that the improvement in the sex drive of these patients were linked to the conversion of protodioscin, the active ingredient of the TTL extract, into DHEA-S.

The role of DHEA-S in general health and sense of well-being was suggested by its varying levels in patients diagnosed with diabetes as compared to normal men. Further correlation of DHEA with sexual functions was shown by its decreased level in those also diagnosed with ED.

Increasing the serum DHEA-S level, thus, should improve the sexual functions in patients diagnosed with ED. This hypothesis was directly supported by our clinical trial: treatment with TTL extract (Libilov) resulted in improvement in the frequency of successful sexual intercourse in men (diabetics and non-diabetics alike) diagnosed with ED. This improvement in sexual function was accompanied by an increased level of serum DHEA-S in these ED patients.

The mechanism of DHEA-S in improving the sexual functions of the treated patients is hypothesized to include improvement of cell membrane integrity and function at the cellular level, to improvement of circulation, health and sense of well-being that indirectly result in improved sex drive. Further research into the direct mechanism of the action of DHEA-S is warranted.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

The authors wished to thank PT Teguhsindo Lestaritama, Jakarta, Indonesia for its support by providing the TTL extract Libilov (250 mg) for this clinical trial; Prodia Clinical Laboratory, Surabaya for its continual support in evaluating the biochemical parameters in this study; and Dr. I. Haryono, M.D. for the statistical evaluation of the data.

REFERENCES

Adimoelja, A. (1996) Sex Therapy in Asia. 4th Asian Conference of Sexology in Taipei, Taiwan.

Adimoelja, A., Suryaatmadja, S., Setiawan, L., and Tanojo, T. (1997) Protodioscin, the main active component in Tribulus terrestris L. may improve sperm function in subfertile males and increase the frequency of successful intercourse in men with erectile dysfunctions. VII National congress of Andrology in Bandung,Indonesia.

Dyner, T.S., et al. (1993) An open label dose escalation trial of oral DHEA tolerance and pharmacokinetics in patients with HIV-disease. J. AIDS 6(5): 459-465

Gaby, A.R. (1993) DHEA: The hormone that "does it all". Holistic Medicine 19-24

Hafez, E.S.E., and Prasad, M.R.N. (1976) Functional aspects of the epididymis. In Human Semen and Fertility Regulation in Men. (The CV Mosby Company) 31-41

Moeloek, N., Adimoelja, A., Tanojo, T., and Pangkahila, W. (1994) Trial of Tribulus terrestris (Libilov) on oligozoospermia. National Congress of Indonesian Association of Andrologs. Scientific Meeting VI in Manado (1994)

Setiawan, L., Adimoelja, A, and Hinting, A. (1996) Tribulus terrestris L improves sperm morphology and enhances sperm acrosome reaction in oligoasthenoteratozoospermia. J. Panca Sarjana Univ. Airlangga 5(2-3): 35-40.

 

[Hank Vangut]

I ALWAYS ask for people to ask questions when they don't get something suggested however. Funny many may not ask, but will later suggest they have no idea what the hell I am talking about.

funny, i'm one of those who has not asked but later admitted i had no idea what you were saying.
i actually had to read this post three times to try and comprehend it.
but i think i understand most of what you are saying here.
and i'll ask more questions on the parts i don't quite get.

Possibly, but I don't recommend DHEA in any event for many reasons - and I wouldn't be doing my job if I was merely offering experimental protocol to clients/patients now would I?

experimental because it has not been published in a medical document?
or experimental because you have never seen any lab results to prove benefitial or negative?

Swale perscribes dhea to a lot of his hpta patcients.
he also seems to get favorable lab results showing significant improvement from his patcients. probably not a controlled setting, but i wouldn't think he wouldn't keep experimenting w/dhea if it didn't show some signs of benefit to his patcients.

Of course, cortisol is also LOW (contrary to the abuse of anti-cortisol agents due to lack of understanding of these pathways in the immediate post-cycle timeframe), but alas I digress...this is supplement advertising at its finest.

i think i understand you here.
you are saying dhea use for cortisol suppression in the early stages of pct is unnecessary since cort levels are initially low?
what about later on when cort levels begin to climb?

Still, if you weigh out this adrenal compensation (ie. - supply of exogenous DHEA, et al) vs. estrogenic control (and the side effects that may result - ie. - gyno, et al), I would bet sacrificing the use of the SERM is NOT something many would be willing to become a test subject for.

i thought only excess dhea in your system has the potential to convert to estrogen.
if you are hpta suppressed with low dhea levels, wouldn't supplementing w/dhea (using only engough to bring levels up to normal) not directly translate to elevated estrogen levels?



thanks D.

 

[dinoiii]

experimental because it has not been published in a medical document?

Nope, but experimental because a controlled setting has not established adequate rationale for me to consider changing what I too have found to work just find with said individuals.

or experimental because you have never seen any lab results to prove benefitial or negative?

Nothing is "proven" in science, merely "supported." But - sure there are no adequate labs comparatively supporting DHEA vs. placebo to merit people who didn't use DHEA would be any worse off.

Swale perscribes dhea to a lot of his hpta patcients.
he also seems to get favorable lab results showing significant improvement from his patcients. probably not a controlled setting, but i wouldn't think he wouldn't keep experimenting w/dhea if it didn't show some signs of benefit to his patcients.

I said that they DID have effects - just NOT on the HPTA directly - Indirectly at best through the HPAA. Now, we also acknowledged in the above that a hypOadrenal state would experience improved mood overall - hence even recovery in depressed patients, HOWEVER, the trade-off when comparing anti-E (provided you are going to resort to SERM use) isn't worth it.

i think i understand you here.
you are saying dhea use for cortisol suppression in the early stages of pct is unnecessary since cort levels are initially low?
what about later on when cort levels begin to climb?

Perhaps, because the protocol I'd employ is a reverse ramp with lowering the SERM while increasing the AI simultaneously. I know of no such studies suggesting interference between an AI and DHEA. Still, one could also suspect that the use of DHEA with adrenal recovery (about 2.5 weeks post-cycle in rather indiscriminate fashion verified by 24-hour urinary cortisol amongst a battery of challenge tests) would offer minimal in the realm of added benefit at that time also.

i thought only excess dhea in your system has the potential to convert to estrogen. if you are hpta suppressed with low dhea levels, wouldn't supplementing w/dhea (using only engough to bring levels up to normal) not directly translate to elevated estrogen levels?

Again, keep in mind this is an adrenal-predominate. The levels required and length of cycle for DHEA (especially for someone in an age less-than 65-70 years) has not nearly been scrutinized enough. In order to see significant effect, your oral dose has to be up there, but then consider blood sugar regulation, et al issues which would contribute to problems keeping gains into post-cycle as well.

This is so not as "easy" a science as coming up with the "one-size-fits-all" approach. The problem with this search is that it doesn't exist and a case-by-case basis is what we know best.

This is also, perhaps, one of the reasons these things will always be seen as problematic in any over-the-counter sense. And consumers/patients see the medical establishment as the "demon" rather than the industry because they're an easier conspiracy target. See, I agree that people should have the ability to take what they want, BUT I also am aware of an oath I signed to not watch people screw themselves up the process.



D_

 

[Xodus]

Again, keep in mind this is an adrenal-predominate. The levels required and length of cycle for DHEA (especially for someone in an age less-than 65-70 years) has not nearly been scrutinized enough. In order to see significant effect, your oral dose has to be up there, but then consider blood sugar regulation, et al issues which would contribute to problems keeping gains into post-cycle as well.


D_

What about transdermal DHEA where you get closer to 30-40% availability vs. oral (~3%)?

 

[TheNoid]

Mind you, my humor is pretty "raw" as I have been told, so you may not be dropping dead in laughter - but somewhere someone is laughing - probably me?!?

Usually just you and thesinner. And I guess me at your nerdly back and forth banter. lol jk

What's one of the sure-fire things we know about lipids during cycle? The quoted "deleterious" effects include: decreased HDL, increased LDL, increased Tot. Cholesterol, etc... However, knowing too that 99% of dyslipidemia is found at the level of the liver - meaning if we try and "treat" cholesterol issues, we are screwing up the fundamental endogenous correction factor put in place by the body to supply androgen substrate. IT IS THAT WAY FOR A REASON...high cholesterol is the origin of increased test - leave it alone, or you will have difficulty re-gaining control of endocrinologic balance -

Why then the recommendation of dyslipidemia modifying agents in your PCT series?

 

[dinoiii]

What about transdermal DHEA where you get closer to 30-40% availability vs. oral (~3%)?

No controlled setting under the same set of conditions unfortunately. Even the patent that exists for TD DHEA doesn't consider any condition that closely approximates post-cycle.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Usually just you and thesinner. And I guess me at your nerdly back and forth banter. lol jk

:fool2:

I get ole sinner over at my subforum too.

He brightens my day (I suppose the appropriate suggestion would be "no homo" inserted here, no?).

Why then the recommendation of dyslipidemia modifying agents in your PCT series?

Great question!

There are, for whatever reason, many people suffering from one of the inhereted five most clinically-significant dyslipidemia categorizations that opt to run cycles. For someone in this instance, keeping a close watch on said issues is and will forever be pertinent.

There are, also people that fall within the norm of the population that wind up clinically-affected in the aftermath of running a cycle. I am a fan of heavy niacin therapy through most cycles (keeping in mind the relatively distinct range of effective and lethal doses with C17-alkylated subset).

Few things this means: 1. an effective dose tends to fall over about an 800-1200mg mark for most people (I am aware this leaves wiggle room - most often in the case of volume of distribution adjustments), 2. hepatotoxic effects start cropping up at roughly 3 grams or so, 3. Concurrent run of suggestive hepatoprotective agents like SAMe and time differential dosing parameters. This too must be taken in stride as the primary derrangement is a HDL decrease. HDL's primary responsibility is to essentially remove LDL and Trigs from the system. If keeping HDL from dropping, LDL and Tot chol stay much closer to norm allowing for a more expedited course toward normal androgen precursor states. Directly lowering LDL is rarely my suggestion - hence my discussions on Red Yeast Rice and the lowly statin equivalents.



D_

 

[hardknock]

There are, for whatever reason, many people suffering from one of the inhereted five most clinically-significant dyslipidemia categorizations that opt to run cycles. For someone in this instance, keeping a close watch on said issues is and will forever be pertinent.

In saying that, are you saying that there are some people that have no apparent negative effects and are, basically, not affected by running cycles, no matter the toxicity of the "supp"?

 

[arizonanewbie]

Dinoiii, I think it is fantastic to have an actual medical professional dispensing careful analysis instead of the kind of anecdotes that are the usual stock in trade. But I have to add something here and pardon me if I offend. I understand that one of your paramount messages is that the science is often far more complicated and nuanced than people in the AAS culture assume. I also am not surprised to read in threads such as this that people have a hard time understanding your postings. I have to tell you, as a person with 5 years of post-BA education (including an MA in linguistics), your writing is often d@mn-near impenetrable. And I don't believe it is only because the science is complicated. Your sytax is sometimes hard to follow, like someone who learned German before English.

I feel frustrated because I know that buried in the text is the gem of biochemical knowledge that is going to save my testicles, but it is buried.

Nome sayn?

 

[dinoiii]

In saying that, are you saying that there are some people that have no apparent negative effects and are, basically, not affected by running cycles, no matter the toxicity of the "supp"?

I was actually referencing that someone with one of these disorders is actually further burdened by the addition of PH/PS/DeS/AAS.

In other words, they were already "screwed" and victims of their own pathology and the use of aides to keep these guys more in the normal range (whatever "normal" means) may be of benefit.

To the rest, probably no need for employment.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Dinoiii, I think it is fantastic to have an actual medical professional dispensing careful analysis instead of the kind of anecdotes that are the usual stock in trade. But I have to add something here and pardon me if I offend. I understand that one of your paramount messages is that the science is often far more complicated and nuanced than people in the AAS culture assume. I also am not surprised to read in threads such as this that people have a hard time understanding your postings. I have to tell you, as a person with 5 years of post-BA education (including an MA in linguistics), your writing is often d@mn-near impenetrable. And I don't believe it is only because the science is complicated. Your sytax is sometimes hard to follow, like someone who learned German before English.

I feel frustrated because I know that buried in the text is the gem of biochemical knowledge that is going to save my testicles, but it is buried.

Nome sayn?

I do see presence of the "feedback sandwhich" obviously suggesting you are a very educated individual with knowledge of how to critique.

-----------------------------------------------------------

[Aside to those reading along:

Feedback Sandwhich...
Positive Critique / Negative Critique / Positive Critique

In this case:
Medical Professional and analytic = Good
Syntax Sucks = Bad
Something will probably save my balls = Good]

-----------------------------------------------------------


In any event, I appreciate the critique and ask for people to question me as when I type 100s of things daily in this fashion, they must come out as relative stream-of-conscious posts fully entrenched with medical lingo. Still, if people don't ask, I presume all understood me loud and clear.


Now, I did address all of the above questions in turn. If there is something that still didn't make sense, please point it out.


D_

 

[arizonanewbie]

I totally understand how one gets caught up in the kind of talk that happens at work. I'm a law student and after a long day I can't stop lawyering my family and friends. But I do really appreciate all the work you do for everyone here and I can tell you have truly internalized the H. oath. Reps to you.

 

[whitedevil74]

Great seeing you post here doctor. This forum needs more posters like you.

 

[hardknock]

I was actually referencing that someone with one of these disorders is actually further burdened by the addition of PH/PS/DeS/AAS.

In other words, they were already "screwed" and victims of their own pathology and the use of aides to keep these guys more in the normal range (whatever "normal" means) may be of benefit.

To the rest, probably no need for employment.


D_

Yeah, I get what your saying now...matter of a fact, if I had actually took time to read it again, i would have seen what you were conveying the first time....go figure on me, haha.

Hey, im a network engineer, what else would you expect...everyone knows computer guys can not understand plain English...lol

 

[BlackClock]

Just tried p-boost after reading some reviews about it. Worked good but pretty pricey. The trial was free but you have to pay for the shipping which was quick. Anyone know any coupon codes for p-boost.com?