N'Gorge
- Thread starter hrtguy
- Start date
Zero Tolerance
Registered User
I'm saving my N'Gorge for after my SD cycle... I'll report on what I experience then...
hrtguy
Board Sponsor
cpa5oh,
You will likely experience immediate strength gains similar to using CR2 which is definitely better than regular creatine. One thing to note however, is on excersises like biceps curls, after the first heavy set the pump (for me) becomes so intense that sometimes my second actually gets a little harder than usual. But note, I'm not complaining.
Significant others should also appreciate your performance while on N'Gorge.
Hmmm, I wonder if there's a reason ALR made these magic pills blue?:think:
You will likely experience immediate strength gains similar to using CR2 which is definitely better than regular creatine. One thing to note however, is on excersises like biceps curls, after the first heavy set the pump (for me) becomes so intense that sometimes my second actually gets a little harder than usual. But note, I'm not complaining.
Significant others should also appreciate your performance while on N'Gorge.
Hmmm, I wonder if there's a reason ALR made these magic pills blue?:think:
CDB
Registered User
CR2 is just creatine ethyl ester, and there's still no evidence to back up it's effectiveness/safety compared to regular monohydrate. I do use CEE, and it seems at least as effective as regular creatine, more so when I first started using it. However, whatever ester is added doesn't change the fact that there's only so much creatine that a cell can take up, and the more it already has the harder it is to get more in because of the down regulation of the transporter.hrtguy said:cpa5oh,
You will likely experience immediate strength gains similar to using CR2 which is definitely better than regular creatine. One thing to note however, is on excersises like biceps curls, after the first heavy set the pump (for me) becomes so intense that sometimes my second actually gets a little harder than usual. But note, I'm not complaining.
Significant others should also appreciate your performance while on N'Gorge.
Hmmm, I wonder if there's a reason ALR made these magic pills blue?:think:
I'll not say CEE is less effective than monohydrate just from personal experience, but until I seem studies about this compound, specifically showing higher oral availability, more effective transporting into the cell, and especially equal or better to monohydrate in terms of safety, I won't think the extra cost is justified.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Other than the people who have used both and concluded that CEE works better, me being one of them.CDB said:
french_muscle
Member
CEE's theory is only pure science
Author L. Rea
Board Sponsor
I have to agree Bobo. As a whole athletes should only use items they are comfortable and confident with. Personally, even if I was not quite confident in the fact that changing the hydrophylic (disolves in water) to a lipophylic analog (disolves in fats and oils...and increases half-life like any other esterfication) was more bioavailable, the simple reduction in extracellular water retention from esters alone is worth the change to me. I never really did well with monohyudrate or even the far cleaner citrates. Some water and that was about it unless I used insulin with it. Not so with the various esters.
Speaking of which...
Bobo: I believe you are not an advocate of glutamine due to the poor GI capacity. We have been working on a clean glutamine ethyl ester that results in increased plasma glutamine content rather well. Care to test it for me? Tastes okay in Drink mixes.
Speaking of which...
Bobo: I believe you are not an advocate of glutamine due to the poor GI capacity. We have been working on a clean glutamine ethyl ester that results in increased plasma glutamine content rather well. Care to test it for me? Tastes okay in Drink mixes.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Sure. Send me an email.
milwood
Registered User
I am a true non-responder to monohydrate. Not that all is lost, but the gains/pump/feel is so minimal, it barely makes a difference. CEE, on the other hand, is clearly more effective to me, and my current mix of CEE and di-creatine malate gives me significant pumps and feel.
I am looking forward to trying glutamine ethyl ester as well. Happy to test for you if you need it, Author!
I am looking forward to trying glutamine ethyl ester as well. Happy to test for you if you need it, Author!
CDB
Registered User
If you find it works better for you, go for it. My only point is the product is 100% theoretical, there's no proof whatsoever that it works better than monohydrate, no studies exist to show that the effects people feel while on it are anything but placebo. Also, while I don't think there's anything to indicate CEE could be dangerous, the safety of monohydrate is essentially proven in the short and long term, which to me makes it a better buy. That said, one of my favorite products is Cre Ethyl Thunder.Bobo said:
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
CDB said:
Yes but are you showing this same vigor with 99% of the other supplements out there that fit the same criteria?
You keep stating things that are obvious but what are you trying to prove in this thread? Do I see you in other threads criticizing these same points about other products? What makes this special? Questioning the effectiveness of CEE seems rather funny when its one of your favorite products. I seriously don't understand why you would do this.
If you want proof, keep digging because there isn't proof in 99% of the supplements on the market. THere isn't "proof" that creatine monhydrates works for everyone. THere are studies showing it has no effect at all and there are studies that show it does and yet you have many people out there that are non responders.
I'm sorry that there isn't sufficient study in this area and that someone can supply you a double blind placebo study stating its more effective than mono and has no negative health concerns.
I just find it funny you question all those aspects in this thread yet use the product. What are you trying to prove? THat there isn't enough research on a fairly new substance? Everyone knew that already.
There are so many other products that are discussed on this board that could be picked apart much more than CEE ever could. This one I just don't understand. Seems strange.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
CDB said:
By your statements you are doing the exact opposite. There are no studies showing you that CEE is better than Mono yet you spent the money on CEE and in fact its one of your fav's now. A that time CEE was much more expensive than Mono and if you are concerned about the health aspects of CEE then why use CEE at all?
If you read the description of the product it is comparing the effects of other CEE/NO2 products and shows how arginine can inhibit the uptake of creatine.
“Mitochondrial creatine transport was to a significant part dependent on the energetic state of mitochondria and was inhibited by arginine, and to some extent also by lysine, but not by other creatine analogues and related compounds.�
Novel mitochondrial creatine transport activity: Implications for intracellular creatine compartments and bioenergetics
Institute of Cell Biology, ETH-Zurich, Zurich CH-8093 Bernd Walzel, Olliver Speer, Else Zanolla, Ove Eriksson, Paolo Bernardi, and Theo Wallimann
So to explain WHY this product will results in more CEE uptake than other CEE/NO2 combos Author explained this in another thread:
"The level of Citrulline in any creatine product, or one that is used with one, needs to not exceed 1g. Why? Simply that the conversion of citrulline to arginine increases with dosage...and arginine decreases creatine absorption significantly. A lower dosage of citrulline was added and escorted by the ethyl ester analog of glutamine as a means of disallowing the levels in available arginine to pit to a point of ornithine conversion to arginine and subsequent loss of CCE cellualr availability.
With synergy in mind, the NO production is dependent upon arginase enzyme inhibition...not upon increased arginine in the body. The result is an increase in BOTH cellular creatine and localized NO to aid in both anabolic signaling and the ever loved pump."
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
"alternate forms with better absorbability should lessen the GI upset potential. Furthermore, faster absorbability should lead to a markedly different pharmacokinetic profile (higher peak levels, faster clearance). Whether this changes the physiological response is really not known for sure. For instance, CEE is known to absorb very fast and lead to much higher peak blood levels than cmono. Whether this means better results we don't know. But incledon did start a study (that he never completed) and he reported much greater responses from CEE than from C mono"
Little tidbit on CEE. I know you want your "proof" but its not like CEE is a major stretch of any scientific principle. Questioning CEE at this point seems rather pointless.
Little tidbit on CEE. I know you want your "proof" but its not like CEE is a major stretch of any scientific principle. Questioning CEE at this point seems rather pointless.
CDB
Registered User
You seem to be taking this a lot more seriously than me, Bobo. As far as demanding evidence for other supplements I use, the only supplements I use regularly are creatine, either monohydrate or CEE, a multivitamin, caffeine in low doses and fish oil recently, most of which I'm sure it's safe to say have solid science backing their effectiveness for their specific purposes. The only reason I'm using CEE is because I figured I'd give it a try when it came out and someone, I forget who, was offering a decent deal on the kilo size. Took the same view when CET came out, as I needed a stimulant and had run out of caffeine pills. As for nonresponders to creatine monohydrate, yes they exist. The bulk of the evidence suggests that it's a reasonably effective and safe supplement for most people. Why so defensive on this issue?
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Its just some of the attitudes that I've seen recently tend to bug me. I am ALL for scientific studies but I also try to look at things with an open mind. Lately I've seen posts that just disregard anything new and imply that all companies are out there trying to decieve the public without even looking at what the product is. They tend to nitpick at anything they can just trying to create some sort of drama. It gets old especially those who claim to be research oriented but have never seen the inside of a lab.
In this case it seemed rather odd to me that you would criticize CEE. It seemed very picky and unwarranted especially since the product in question is attacking CEE/NO2 products (because of arginine inhibition) rather than claiming to be some superior form of creatine. So when people start criticizing the product and stating they don't understand the increase in price without ever reading the product description and/or explanation, it starts to get old.
Questioning CEE seems kind of pointeless when there are countless other products on this board with MUCH less scientific backing and much more theoretical stretching occuring than N'Gorge.
I actually find the study showing the inhibition of creatine by arginine rather interesting. Its something I was not familiar with at all and if true tends to put a damper on a lot of the CEE/NO2 combo's out there. People were dismissing the product just because it had GEE but never even took the time to read some of the other interesting aspects of the product (as mentioned above). That is the epitome of being close minded and tends to irk me.
Then again I am operating with about 2 hours of sleep so if the wind blows I get upset
In this case it seemed rather odd to me that you would criticize CEE. It seemed very picky and unwarranted especially since the product in question is attacking CEE/NO2 products (because of arginine inhibition) rather than claiming to be some superior form of creatine. So when people start criticizing the product and stating they don't understand the increase in price without ever reading the product description and/or explanation, it starts to get old.
Questioning CEE seems kind of pointeless when there are countless other products on this board with MUCH less scientific backing and much more theoretical stretching occuring than N'Gorge.
I actually find the study showing the inhibition of creatine by arginine rather interesting. Its something I was not familiar with at all and if true tends to put a damper on a lot of the CEE/NO2 combo's out there. People were dismissing the product just because it had GEE but never even took the time to read some of the other interesting aspects of the product (as mentioned above). That is the epitome of being close minded and tends to irk me.
Then again I am operating with about 2 hours of sleep so if the wind blows I get upset
CDB
Registered User
I can understand that. I'm all for trying new things, I just like to keep them in context is all, at least for myself. N'Gorge is something I do want to try because I love the pumps I get from arginine products. In fact, I'm ordering a bottle the first of next month from Nutraplanet. I like pumps.Bobo said:
I think we may have misunderstood each other. I wasn't commenting on N'Gorge. I haven't read much at all on the interactions between arginine and creatine. I was responding to a post commenting that CR2 by ALRI, which is just capped CEE, was "much better than monohydrate," or something along those lines. For all I know, and certainly from what I've heard so far, N'Gorge is actually a good product. Like you I'd never heard arginine could inhibit creatine absorption. I would have thought the opposite in fact with the increased blood flow arginine causes.
Custom's Hyper Drive Stack. Gets me going in a nice, easy way even when I've had no sleep, which is unfortunately frequent these days.Questioning CEE seems kind of pointeless when there are countless other products on this board with MUCH less scientific backing and much more theoretical stretching occuring than N'Gorge.
I actually find the study showing the inhibition of creatine by arginine rather interesting. Its something I was not familiar with at all and if true tends to put a damper on a lot of the CEE/NO2 combo's out there. People were dismissing the product just because it had GEE but never even took the time to read some of the other interesting aspects of the product (as mentioned above). That is the epitome of being close minded and tends to irk me.
Then again I am operating with about 2 hours of sleep so if the wind blows I get upset
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
CDB said:I can understand that. I'm all for trying new things, I just like to keep them in context is all, at least for myself. N'Gorge is something I do want to try because I love the pumps I get from arginine products. In fact, I'm ordering a bottle the first of next month from Nutraplanet. I like pumps.
I think we may have misunderstood each other. I wasn't commenting on N'Gorge. I haven't read much at all on the interactions between arginine and creatine. I was responding to a post commenting that CR2 by ALRI, which is just capped CEE, was "much better than monohydrate," or something along those lines. For all I know, and certainly from what I've heard so far, N'Gorge is actually a good product. Like you I'd never heard arginine could inhibit creatine absorption. I would have thought the opposite in fact with the increased blood flow arginine causes.
Custom's Hyper Drive Stack. Gets me going in a nice, easy way even when I've had no sleep, which is unfortunately frequent these days.
Well one of the main reasons I tihnk CEE is better is because I don't get the bloat I get with mono and I tihnk Author hinted to that as well. I bloat like a fish on mono.
I'm on BSL's GO! right now.
CDB
Registered User
That is a plus a lot of people report on CEE. I just never got bloated from monohydrate. No side effects whatsoever, just the benefits.Bobo said:Well one of the main reasons I tihnk CEE is better is because I don't get the bloat I get with mono and I tihnk Author hinted to that as well. I bloat like a fish on mono.
I'm on BSL's GO! right now.
prld2gr8ns
Idiot Savant
I think he was referring to his stimulate drink he's using while going on 2hrs sleep, no relation to the CEE topic.houseman said:
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
prld2gr8ns said:
Smart man.
Author L. Rea
Board Sponsor
Have you tried a creatine ethyl ester product before?natedogg said:
ItriedtoripoffBobosonowIamgonehaveaniceday
Guest
Stick with CM....if it ain't broke why fix it and PAY MORE for the same results!
custom
Well-known member
Are you really paying more?
A kilo of monohydrate cost $20. A kilo of CEE sost around $50.
If you take 10 grams of monohydrate a day, that is $0.20 per day.
If you take 4 grams of CEE, which by 99% of user accounts is more effective than the 10 grams of monohydrate, you're at the same $0.20 per day.
So it works out to be identical, really, and when CEE works better, as it does for most (not all) it is clearly the better deal.
A kilo of monohydrate cost $20. A kilo of CEE sost around $50.
If you take 10 grams of monohydrate a day, that is $0.20 per day.
If you take 4 grams of CEE, which by 99% of user accounts is more effective than the 10 grams of monohydrate, you're at the same $0.20 per day.
So it works out to be identical, really, and when CEE works better, as it does for most (not all) it is clearly the better deal.
89coupe
Board Supporter
how are you guys dosing N'Gorge? the bottle said take 4caps 30min. before workout and 4 more later in the day. do ya take it on an empty stomach, and how long do ya wait for the next dose. I eat an hour before I work out so I hope it doesn't have to be on an empty stumach.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
jmh80 said:
I'm looking into this now. I have no doubt those products work but if it could be better, I'm all for it. I don't think it negates creatine uptake but it certaily could hinder it form what I am seeing.
I havne't used that stack in about 2 months as I am trying other things right now.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
:twisted:
Author L. Rea
Board Sponsor
If you are taking 4 caps 2xd you should note something by day 7. If not then your sodium intake is too low. Sodium modulates the cellualr membrane transport system called the sodium pump.solarize said: