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Neoborn's Formestane / EForm FAQ...

thebigt said:
bandwagon supps, i think we will be seeing more and more td's in the near future. whats your take on adding resveratrol to e-form?:box:
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Well...this is a climactic switch. Let me talk a bit in stream-of-conscious fashion (I will summarize the basic offering at the end)...

While resveratrol is potentially good candidate for TD delivery systems (i.e. – highly soluble in DMSO; small enough molecular weight – 228.25 DA, etc…), and in vitro offerings when set up against carcinogens of the human oral tissue and/or mouse epidermis may actually support this – it still is a suggestion that doesn’t apply to whole systems.

I have questioned rationale of employment of this agent (by mechanism of action alone) in the past even if it were suitable. While the sirtuin offering to life extension looks promising to insect and other hard exoskeleton phyla, application to humans is hugely off-base and strangely suggested (PGC-1 alpha probably best translation when applying to rodent literature) – yet still remains nothing more than a whim by the great supplement industry “gods.” Perhaps even additionally confounding, DMSO is actually a free-radical scavenger and presents issue with any of these in vitro or epidermal models.

But the fundamental flaw would appear that polyphenolic resveratrol is at the same time an enzymatic inhibitor of oxidative activity if the models are in fact correct to attribute said response to the res molecule in the first place. A transient derivative of resveratrol, resveratrol triphosphate, has been designed to provide a means for the delayed delivery of the active compound in skin tissue where endogenous enzymes capable of dephosphorylation reside. This is something that would need to be inherently overcome for successful administration – something unsolved as far as I have considered the literature to date. There is huge question whether or not bioavailability would be enhanced with TD administration of the pro-molecule rather than resveratrol itself – something no company I am aware of uses to date.

The suggestion of pro-test actions are even further off base though I think bodybuilders would literally “rub anything on themselves” with the promise of test elevation. Yawn! The only thing we have realized with this thought process is that one – we need a boatload of the product (perhaps the pro-molecule would eliminate this need…unsure), and two – estrogen, rather than test elevations are seen to a greater proportion. I believe I have explained the ER-alpha vs. beta distribution (secondary to aryl-hydrocarbon mRNA expression models, which don’t translate cleanly upon critical evaluation) elsewhere on this board which is yet an additional issue and flaw of the compound.


Summary of my stream-of-conscious post: Right now, I don't know that there would be superiority to adding it to Form and it may be irresponsible (or minimally premature) of me to suggest concurrent employment at this time, SO NO. In fact, not only may it cancel out the response to the Form if the estrogenic models are correct (again, it is in-vitro data)...it may also worsen what you are attempting to fend off with the form in the first place (merely direct vs. indirect pathway differential is all).


D_
 
dinoiii said:
Well...this is a climactic switch. Let me talk a bit in stream-of-conscious fashion (I will summarize the basic offering at the end)...

While resveratrol is potentially good candidate for TD delivery systems (i.e. – highly soluble in DMSO; small enough molecular weight – 228.25 DA, etc…), and in vitro offerings when set up against carcinogens of the human oral tissue and/or mouse epidermis may actually support this – it still is a suggestion that doesn’t apply to whole systems.

I have questioned rationale of employment of this agent (by mechanism of action alone) in the past even if it were suitable. While the sirtuin offering to life extension looks promising to insect and other hard exoskeleton phyla, application to humans is hugely off-base and strangely suggested (PGC-1 alpha probably best translation when applying to rodent literature) – yet still remains nothing more than a whim by the great supplement industry “gods.” Perhaps even additionally confounding, DMSO is actually a free-radical scavenger and presents issue with any of these in vitro or epidermal models.

But the fundamental flaw would appear that polyphenolic resveratrol is at the same time an enzymatic inhibitor of oxidative activity if the models are in fact correct to attribute said response to the res molecule in the first place. A transient derivative of resveratrol, resveratrol triphosphate, has been designed to provide a means for the delayed delivery of the active compound in skin tissue where endogenous enzymes capable of dephosphorylation reside. This is something that would need to be inherently overcome for successful administration – something unsolved as far as I have considered the literature to date. There is huge question whether or not bioavailability would be enhanced with TD administration of the pro-molecule rather than resveratrol itself – something no company I am aware of uses to date.

The suggestion of pro-test actions are even further off base though I think bodybuilders would literally “rub anything on themselves” with the promise of test elevation. Yawn! The only thing we have realized with this thought process is that one – we need a boatload of the product (perhaps the pro-molecule would eliminate this need…unsure), and two – estrogen, rather than test elevations are seen to a greater proportion. I believe I have explained the ER-alpha vs. beta distribution (secondary to aryl-hydrocarbon mRNA expression models, which don’t translate cleanly upon critical evaluation) elsewhere on this board which is yet an additional issue and flaw of the compound.


Summary of my stream-of-conscious post: Right now, I don't know that there would be superiority to adding it to Form and it may be irresponsible (or minimally premature) of me to suggest concurrent employment at this time, SO NO. In fact, not only may it cancel out the response to the Form if the estrogenic models are correct (again, it is in-vitro data)...it may also worsen what you are attempting to fend off with the form in the first place (merely direct vs. indirect pathway differential is all).


D_
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this is interesting stuff. you are not the first one to talk about the estrogenic nature of resveratrol. the reasoning behind adding bulk res to e-form was to get the benefits of the res while countering the possible estrogenic reaction. btw to my knowledge the e-form carrier does not contain dmso. oh yeah, what do you say to people who are substituting traditional pct's ie.serms and otc ai's with resveratrol? it would appear resveratrol in pct would be counter-productive according to your research. good stuff dana, give us some more info on this topic.:frustrate
 
neoborn said:
*New* Transdermal Whey Protein!!! Absorb that shock o lat!

How can I make the powder finer, pestle and mortar? How fine with I get it with one of those? Any input you science nerds?

Amor Est Vitae Essentia,

Neoborn
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ive heard applying to your johnson will add 2-3 inches in first week.:twisted:
 
thebigt said:
this is interesting stuff. you are not the first one to talk about the estrogenic nature of resveratrol. the reasoning behind adding bulk res to e-form was to get the benefits of the res while countering the possible estrogenic reaction. btw to my knowledge the e-form carrier does not contain dmso. oh yeah, what do you say to people who are substituting traditional post cycle therapy's ie.serms and otc ai's with resveratrol? it would appear resveratrol in post cycle therapy would be counter-productive according to your research. good stuff dana, give us some more info on this topic.:frustrate
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I'll post more later...really prepping for a LOT of interaction this week with New Year's Resolutioners ---> I have to see 72 people between Wednesday and Friday, so perhaps that frustrate icon is better put there.

As for the DMSO; just using the carrier model used in various TD models that people are picking the research from. Interesting that they have opted for alternate carriers though.

I'll be back later in the day.


D_
 
Some reads in the mean time:


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D_
 
dinoiii said:
Some reads in the mean time:


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D_
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i think those people who are using resveratrol as the foundation of their pct really need to look at those threads. activate original was thought to raise estrogen levels as well as free-test, ds even recommended rebound xt to stack with it. i cant seem to get past thinking that res reminds me of activate, and that stacking res/formestane would yield great results.
 
dinoiii said:
... In fact, not only may it cancel out the response to the Form if the estrogenic models are correct (again, it is in-vitro data)...it may also worsen what you are attempting to fend off with the form in the first place (merely direct vs. indirect pathway differential is all).


D_
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I don't even think pure DMSO would stabilize it's phenolic constitution. It degrades so rapidly in solution, that a test sample easily loses 5% potency per day at ambient temperature, prepared in USP EtOH, even using low-actinic glass. The molecule is just not stable for long in solution and any water in the solvent system would greatly exaggerate this too. The cis isomer forms readily upon heating, exposure to UV, etc. and that's a big reason why it can act more like estro IMO. Can anybody say DES analog? Yikes!
:lol:
 
thebigt said:
i think those people who are using resveratrol as the foundation of their post cycle therapy really need to look at those threads. activate original was thought to raise estrogen levels as well as free-test, ds even recommended rebound xt to stack with it. i cant seem to get past thinking that res reminds me of activate, and that stacking res/formestane would yield great results.
Click to expand...

See,

Divanil + Inhibition of Aromatase makes sense

Res (trans or otherwise) + Inhibition of Aromatase is completely moot




Res does NOT elevate testosterone - at least to no appreciable degree and the mix up in estrogen control lies in direct (i.e. - pro-estrogenic base) vs. indirect (aromatse conversion).


D_
 
DR.D said:
I don't even think pure DMSO would stabilize it's phenolic constitution.
Click to expand...

You may be correct here.


It degrades so rapidly in solution, that a test sample easily loses 5% potency per day at ambient temperature, prepared in USP EtOH, even using low-actinic glass. The molecule is just not stable for long in solution and any water in the solvent system would greatly exaggerate this too. The cis isomer forms readily upon heating, exposure to UV, etc. and that's a big reason why it can act more like estro IMO. Can anybody say DES analog? Yikes!
:lol:
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Well - we are in COMPLETE agreement here. People who ingest (trans) res products or those that ... GASP ... produce said products will attempt to protest the point (whether it be an attempt at rationalizing their continued use and/or protection of their plight -$$$), BUT the reality is that early misinterpretation of what study data may suggest in the first place is the bigger problem here. Even without the suggestion Dr.D points out above, there are so many fundamental flaws with this concept.




Aside: Dr.D, I still have to check on the Fulvic Acid trial and see if I have it present on my computer any longer - if not, if you have a fax #, I can fax the data to you.



D_
 
dinoiii said:
See,

Divanil + Inhibition of Aromatase makes sense

Res (trans or otherwise) + Inhibition of Aromatase is completely moot




Res does NOT elevate testosterone - at least to no appreciable degree and the mix up in estrogen control lies in direct (i.e. - pro-estrogenic base) vs. indirect (aromatse conversion).


D_
Click to expand...

thanks dana, resveratrol is being put on hold for awhile.
 
DR.D said:
I don't even think pure DMSO would stabilize it's phenolic constitution. It degrades so rapidly in solution, that a test sample easily loses 5% potency per day at ambient temperature, prepared in USP EtOH, even using low-actinic glass. The molecule is just not stable for long in solution and any water in the solvent system would greatly exaggerate this too. The cis isomer forms readily upon heating, exposure to UV, etc. and that's a big reason why it can act more like estro IMO. Can anybody say DES analog? Yikes!
:lol:
Click to expand...

thanks dr.d, always good to get your input.
 
Just read thru the entire thread and have a question. I noticed various dosages recommended but for experienced aas users, no real dose is given, just "higher" than 200mg's. How many mg's/day are recommended for a guy with plenty of cycles under his belt?
 
It's individual at best. You just have to play around with the dosing to find what works best for you. If your an experienced user then I'd say you could start out with 150mg or so and adjust accordingly.
 
Heat, shake, heat, shake, over and over and FINALLY the stuff stayed in solution.

After it cooled in like 20 minutes, my form looks like it actually flaked a little bit. Is this problem? I've had form fall out of solution before but it just settled on the bottom. I'm wondering if I overheated it broke some bonds that weren't meant to be broken?

I still felt the "BigT Formestane Rush" on my first dose but I'm wondering if I should still make another batch.
 
e-form works pretty well, but i noticed more joint pain while on it.

could be cuz im either drying out or reduced igf-1 levels. or both.
 
neoborn said:
FAQ on page 1 updated to include better mixing method and picture.
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thanks for the feedback neo. It's actually staying in solution pretty well. I'm certainly happy about that because I always seem to get my form to fall out of solution after about 6 or 8 hours of sitting. It seems like it's just something that you have to try a few times to get it right. Thanks bro! :cheers:
 
Distilled Water said:
Guys what about tanning and TD form. I've started and was wondering how much time between tanning and application should there be, or if it really matters?
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Never really been a problem for me. I applied and tanned with 2 hours inbetween and never had a problem
 
Distilled Water said:
Guys what about tanning and TD form. I've started and was wondering how much time between tanning and application should there be, or if it really matters?
Click to expand...
\

I've heard slathering a mix of cocoa butter and Form on, then 20 minutes on high each side should toast you up nice n brown and keep your estrogen at bay :P:toofunny:
 
neoborn said:
\

I've heard slathering a mix of cocoa butter and Form on, then 20 minutes on high each side should toast you up nice n brown and keep your estrogen at bay :P:toofunny:
Click to expand...

Not to mention, it would make you smell niiiiiiice.:cool:
 
celc5 said:
Heat, shake, heat, shake, over and over and FINALLY the stuff stayed in solution.

After it cooled in like 20 minutes, my form looks like it actually flaked a little bit. Is this problem? I've had form fall out of solution before but it just settled on the bottom. I'm wondering if I overheated it broke some bonds that weren't meant to be broken?

I still felt the "BigT Formestane Rush" on my first dose but I'm wondering if I should still make another batch.
Click to expand...

Apply your carrier in a warm location. Keep the carrier in a warm spot as well. Provided it is merely formestane, it should remain pretty stable in solution.

Higher temperatures ensure a greater solubility of formestane (so it doesn't crash or clog dispenser), increases peripheral blood flow, and opens up your pores.
 
Does anyone know what the shelf life of Dermabolics' E-form is? I still have three bottles that I bought last spring and was wondering if it loses its effectiveness/potency at all? They don't seem to have an expiry date on them.

Sorry if this has been asked somewhere else in this thread.
 
OpKang101 said:
e-form works pretty well, but i noticed more joint pain while on it.

could be cuz im either drying out or reduced igf-1 levels. or both.
Click to expand...

research has shown that formestane increases igf-1 levels. its probably just drying you out, reduce dose for awhile.
 
Ninjo said:
Does anyone know what the shelf life of Dermabolics' E-form is? I still have three bottles that I bought last spring and was wondering if it loses its effectiveness/potency at all? They don't seem to have an expiry date on them.

Sorry if this has been asked somewhere else in this thread.
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Shelf life for dermals seem to be around a couple of years or so from what I remember with similiar products. I'd say your still good.
 
Okay, I'm thinking about doing a standalone E-Form cycle for 5 weeks (to recomp somewhat before going south on vacation) using the following protocol:

Week 1: 3 sprays twice a day (120 mg per day)
Week 2: 3 sprays twice a day (120 mg per day)
Week 3: 3 sprays twice a day (120 mg per day)
Week 4: 2 sprays twice a day (80 mg per day)
Week 5: 1 spray twice a day (40 mg per day)

Questions for the Form Gurus:

- is the dosing protocol outlined above effective?
- will I need to do a PCT (important as I will be out of the country immediately following the cycle)
- what support supps, if any, are needed during/after the cycle?
- is the taper I've outlined in weeks 4 and 5 sufficient to minimize risk of estrogen rebound?

Thanks guys!
 
I would say it looks good to me, you could even prolong it one week further and just do a squirt in the morning once a day or even every other day.

Lovely!

Much Love,

Neoborn
 
Ninjo, neo is spot on. You could go 6 or 8 weeks without problems.

-Start around 2 or 3 sprays twice per day and give yourself the option to increase the dosage to around 5 or 6 sprays twice per day. I find that I like to start my dosage low and ramp (although a ramp is not necessary) until I find my "sweet spot" around 200mg.

-No need for post cycle therapy. I'm going to be using form as part of my post cycle therapy starting next week.

-I like to run Hawthorne Berry at 1-1.5g/day alongside form to keep BP at bay.

-I've also changed my views on whether or not form needs to be tapered. If it were me, I'd run it at my optimal dosage up until the last day with no taper. I've learned that it stays active with estrogen control for a long time after you stop. I've felt just fine without the taper in December with an nha stack. You might want to taper this first time though just to get the feel for things.
 
celc5 said:
-I've also changed my views on whether or not form needs to be tapered. If it were me, I'd run it at my optimal dosage up until the last day with no taper. I've learned that it stays active with estrogen control for a long time after you stop. I've felt just fine without the taper in December with an nha stack. You might want to taper this first time though just to get the feel for things.
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:goodpost:

This is true, though I still taper :) just a quirk, follow Celc ;)
 
celc5 said:
Ninjo, neo is spot on. You could go 6 or 8 weeks without problems.

-Start around 2 or 3 sprays twice per day and give yourself the option to increase the dosage to around 5 or 6 sprays twice per day. I find that I like to start my dosage low and ramp (although a ramp is not necessary) until I find my "sweet spot" around 200mg.

-No need for post cycle therapy. I'm going to be using form as part of my post cycle therapy starting next week.

-I like to run Hawthorne Berry at 1-1.5g/day alongside form to keep BP at bay.

-I've also changed my views on whether or not form needs to be tapered. If it were me, I'd run it at my optimal dosage up until the last day with no taper. I've learned that it stays active with estrogen control for a long time after you stop. I've felt just fine without the taper in December with an nha stack. You might want to taper this first time though just to get the feel for things.
Click to expand...

Thanks bro. Unfortunately, I only have five weeks before we head to Mexico and I don't want to be bringing the E-Form across any international borders (i.e. I'm in Canada). So five weeks will be the longest I can run it. Will it be worth it?
 
celc5 said:
Ninjo, neo is spot on. You could go 6 or 8 weeks without problems.

-Start around 2 or 3 sprays twice per day and give yourself the option to increase the dosage to around 5 or 6 sprays twice per day. I find that I like to start my dosage low and ramp (although a ramp is not necessary) until I find my "sweet spot" around 200mg.

-No need for post cycle therapy. I'm going to be using form as part of my post cycle therapy starting next week.

-I like to run Hawthorne Berry at 1-1.5g/day alongside form to keep BP at bay.

-I've also changed my views on whether or not form needs to be tapered. If it were me, I'd run it at my optimal dosage up until the last day with no taper. I've learned that it stays active with estrogen control for a long time after you stop. I've felt just fine without the taper in December with an nha stack. You might want to taper this first time though just to get the feel for things.
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Which NHA stack did you use ?
 
Neo, the form stays active when you taper. You just don't get the aggression kick from the 4oht ph. Either way is just fine. Btw neo, your suggestions REALLY helped me to keep my form from crashing this time around. Awesome stuff bro!

Ninjo, a firm YES!!! 5 weeks will definately be worth it! You'll start "feeling" it within just a few days :head:

Wheels, i used it with activate extreme and lean extreme. Formestane overpowers everything else and you'd be just as well off running it solo. The majority tends to disagree with my view on Activate Extreme so ask around and try it yourself to develop your own opinion.
 
celc5 said:
The majority tends to disagree with my view on Activate Extreme so ask around and try it yourself to develop your own opinion.
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Actually, I can see how this makes perfect sense. Form inhibits SHBG, which is a primary way Acitvate works. You can only lower SHBG so far before you get diminishing returns, so why stack two products that does such.
 
prld2gr8ns said:
Actually, I can see how this makes perfect sense. Form inhibits SHBG, which is a primary way Acitvate works. You can only lower SHBG so far before you get diminishing returns, so why stack two products that does such.
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So bam would work the same way as activate petty much ?
 
wheels said:
So bam would work the same way as activate petty much ?
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Not sure. I was referring to celc's response between Activate and Formestane. BAM is a combination of 25R-diol and Basella Rubra, of which the mechanism of action isn't really clear(at least to my knowledge).
 
celc5 said:
Neo, the form stays active when you taper. You just don't get the aggression kick from the 4oht ph. Either way is just fine. Btw neo, your suggestions REALLY helped me to keep my form from crashing this time around. Awesome stuff bro!

Ninjo, a firm YES!!! 5 weeks will definately be worth it! You'll start "feeling" it within just a few days :head:

Wheels, i used it with activate extreme and lean extreme. Formestane overpowers everything else and you'd be just as well off running it solo. The majority tends to disagree with my view on Activate Extreme so ask around and try it yourself to develop your own opinion.
Click to expand...
Do you know which pathway bam works by ?
 
wheels said:
Do you know which pathway bam works by ?
Click to expand...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolic-xtreme/56397-official-mass-fx.html

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These should help you understand the mechanisms better. Seems basella is pretty good at increasing androgenicty with all the subsequent sides you would commonly see with increase T levels. 25Diol seems to act primarily on the AR in a fashion similiar to androgens, either direct or indirect I don't know(it's a saponin of fenugreek if you want to search some more).

The pathways still aren't all that clear as to how each functions, but studies do show that they work.
 
prld2gr8ns said:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolic-xtreme/56397-official-mass-fx.html

Invalid Link Removed

These should help you understand the mechanisms better. Seems basella is pretty good at increasing androgenicty with all the subsequent sides you would commonly see with increase T levels. 25Diol seems to act primarily on the AR in a fashion similiar to androgens, either direct or indirect I don't know(it's a saponin of fenugreek if you want to search some more).

The pathways still aren't all that clear as to how each functions, but studies do show that they work.
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thanks for your help bro
 
celc5 said:
Ninjo, a firm YES!!! 5 weeks will definately be worth it! You'll start "feeling" it within just a few days :head:
Click to expand...

I'm on Day 2. I thought I'd start conservatively so I've only been doing 2 squirts 2x/day (total of 80 mg per day). I don't feel anything yet so maybe I'll increase to 6 squirts per day starting tomorrow. ;)
 
Ninjo said:
I'm on Day 2. I thought I'd start conservatively so I've only been doing 2 squirts 2x/day (total of 80 mg per day). I don't feel anything yet so maybe I'll increase to 6 squirts per day starting tomorrow. ;)
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don't jump from 2 to 6, try 4-5 first. i been using form a long time and 5 is good for me. if i were you i would ramp up gradually. 3 for a day or 2 then try 4, then 5.
 
thebigt said:
don't jump from 2 to 6, try 4-5 first. i been using form a long time and 5 is good for me. if i were you i would ramp up gradually. 3 for a day or 2 then try 4, then 5.
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Thanks for the info bigT...just to clarify, I started with 4 sprays per day (i.e. 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening) and was considering moving up to 6 per day.
 
I got a question about formestane.
I did a H drol cycle in Nov for 5weeks and then pct for 5weeks.
Started TD formestane straight after pct and I'm almost finished.This will be week 5 on the form.

So due to the hormonal nature of the formestane would it be correct to include it in the rule , time on + time off before even considering another PH cycle?
That would mean a 15 week break from anything hormonal.
 
TSB4me said:
I got a question about formestane.
I did a H drol cycle in Nov for 5weeks and then post cycle therapy for 5weeks.
Started TD formestane straight after post cycle therapy and I'm almost finished.This will be week 5 on the form.

So due to the hormonal nature of the formestane would it be correct to include it in the rule , time on + time off before even considering another PH cycle?
That would mean a 15 week break from anything hormonal.
Click to expand...

remember, it takes longer for us older guys to recover. give the hpta a chance to balance. i like to use reset ad on pct, find it helps a lot. btw i like dthc as a bridge between cycles.
 
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