Muscle without fat?

[Mmyamahar6]

Im 6 feet tall and weigh 160 my goal for now is to hit two hundred can I do this without putting on fat or do I have to bulk then strip I like my six pack alot so im
Hoping that you guys have some good news

 

[EasyEJL]

you face a choice. either you can gain that weight pretty slowly, 1-2lbs a month tops and not add noticeable fat. Or you can shoot for gaining more and add some significant amount of fat with it.

 

[rochabp]

its up to you, 1000 cals, of oatmeal or 1000 cals of pizza

 

[Teddy21]

What EasyEJL said is basically what it comes down to, it really depends how anti bad weight you are.

If you are very anti, start adding 200 to 400 calories per week to your maintenance. Try and make this from a protein source where possible. If you gain more than 1-2 pounds in a week you are over eating and will be gaining fat, if so knock the calories back by 200-400. When you stop gaining strength and size, add another 200-400, repeat. You have to be mighty patient to lean bulk tbh, its not for everyone, including myself.

Make sure your macros are balanced, between .4g - .6g of fat per pound of body weight, 1g - 1.5g of protein per pound of body weight, closer to the top end of the targets whilst bulking. You need fat, do not avoid it because you are aiming for lean gains. It balances hormones and provides a slow release energy source, just make sure they are good fats.

 

[OrganicShadow]

Yup. Cant have one without the other unless your using some of those special vitamins out there. There IS some potential for having gains with negligible wet weight accumulating but its a very very slow growth process. To some degree it doesnt matter what you eat - oatmeal or pizza - 1,000 extra calories is 1,000 extra calories and your gonna pack away somewhere.

Just be sure to keep your cardio in, get those carbs in on training days and cut em down on off days. Keep active, eat clean, train heavy, have a cheat meal 1-2 times a week and your good! And try to keep that cheat meal semi-clean: damage control.

 

[JudoJosh]

Bad advice in my opinion shadow. 1000 cals of sugar or fat on top of someone's maintenance or macro allowance will result in heavy amounts of bad weight, whereas protein or carbs can be used much more productively by the body. Calories are the primary concern in regards to weight loss or gain but what they consist of comes an important second.

You do realize that 1000 calories of sugar is essentially the same as 1000 calories of carbs right? (carbs=sugar) and why would 1000 excess calories from fat intake lead to more weight gain than 1000 calories of excess protein intake?

 

[mattrag]

You do realize that 1000 calories of sugar is essentially the same as 1000 calories of carbs right? (carbs=sugar) and why would 1000 excess calories from fat intake lead to more weight gain than 1000 calories of excess protein intake?

Well there is the effect of fructose metabolism in the liver producing more triglycerides. But that's all dependent on the activity level and overall caloric intake

 

[bashman]

its up to you, 1000 cals, of oatmeal or 1000 cals of pizza

[video=youtube;aqAHv90sjFQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqAHv90sjFQ[/video]

 

[OrganicShadow]

You do realize that 1000 calories of sugar is essentially the same as 1000 calories of carbs right? (carbs=sugar) and why would 1000 excess calories from fat intake lead to more weight gain than 1000 calories of excess protein intake?

Thank you for saving me time. lol

 

[EasyEJL]

You do realize that 1000 calories of sugar is essentially the same as 1000 calories of carbs right? (carbs=sugar) and why would 1000 excess calories from fat intake lead to more weight gain than 1000 calories of excess protein intake?

The sugar would cause more gain actually

 

[psychotron]

What EasyEJL said is basically what it comes down to, it really depends how anti bad weight you are.

If you are very anti, start adding 200 to 400 calories per week to your maintenance. Try and make this from a protein source where possible. If you gain more than 1-2 pounds in a week you are over eating and will be gaining fat, if so knock the calories back by 200-400. When you stop gaining strength and size, add another 200-400, repeat. You have to be mighty patient to lean bulk tbh, its not for everyone, including myself.

Make sure your macros are balanced, between .4g - .6g of fat per pound of body weight, 1g - 1.5g of protein per pound of body weight, closer to the top end of the targets whilst bulking. You need fat, do not avoid it because you are aiming for lean gains. It balances hormones and provides a slow release energy source, just make sure they are good fats.

Great post!!

 

[AustrianOakJr]

The sugar would cause more gain actually

Only if you really want to split hairs and count the TEF of the protein over the sugar. But in the real world it doesnt really make a difference. IMOP, when lean bulking you have to be a bit more conscious of the glycemic load of larger meals because you are walking that line between maintenance and a very slight caloric surplus.

If you want to add very lean weight, you really dont want to see the scale move much at all if you are natural. We put on muscle at such a slow rate of gain that even a solid 1 pound per month will come with some fat gain. Realistically, a trained athlete (someone who is over their "newb gains") will put on 5-7 or so pounds per year of solid muscle. That might come with a couple extra pounds of water/glycogen....but as you reach your genetic potential for muscle mass, the law of diminishing returns really sets in. But take a look at 5 lbs of lean beef next time you go to the grocery and tell me you wouldnt be glad to add that to your frame!

My advice would be to find a nice balance of protein/carbs/fats that gives you good energy in the gym and throughout the day while your weight remains steady. Then begin SLOWLY adding carbs week by week to stoke your metabolic furnace while increasing your loads in the gym. Watch the scale and keep that rate of gain very slow.

UNless....you are a total newb in the gym. Then just eat your face off and train like an animal.

 

[EasyEJL]

With sugar I was specifically think ing about insulin spiking adding more fat

 

[AustrianOakJr]

With sugar I was specifically think ing about insulin spiking adding more fat

Or you could think about insulin spiking add more muscle!

 

[EasyEJL]

Or you could think about insulin spiking add more muscle!

250g of sugar will mostly add fat

 

[AustrianOakJr]

250g of sugar will mostly add fat

250g of calorie surplus sugar? Yes. But if its 250g of sugar at or below maintenance then, by definition, you wont be adding any fat. I dont know too many bodybuilders eating 250g of their carbs in straight sugar so its kinda a moot point.

 

[EasyEJL]

250g of calorie surplus sugar? Yes. But if its 250g of sugar at or below maintenance then, by definition, you wont be adding any fat. I dont know too many bodybuilders eating 250g of their carbs in straight sugar so its kinda a moot point.

No sadly you would still add fat below maintenance, and lose muscle. With sugar, not so much with other carbohydrates

 

[AustrianOakJr]

Assuming your deficit is not ridiculous, sufficient protein is there for maintenance and repair, and fat for hormonal stability.....you would not lose muscle simply because of your carb source.

 

[JudoJosh]

The sugar would cause more gain actually

Please read the post I quoted..

The statement I was responding to was

1000 cals of sugar or fat on top of someone's maintenance or macro allowance will result in heavy amounts of bad weight, whereas protein or carbs can be used much more productively by the body

From this we assume the individual is already eating calories at maintenance and are already hitting their macro-nutrient minimums. (i.e 0.8-2g protein/lb, .5g fat/lb) With total calorie intake netting neither gains or loss, or at maintenance, and with the individual already getting adequately enough dietary fat and protein intake then how does 1000 extra calories from protein not yield fat gain? Protein isnt magic.. if it isnt being used it will be stored just like any other macro-nutrient. The idea that sugar alone will make you fat is a little far fetched and I am a little confused reading this from you as I know you have posted this yourself many times before. There really isnt any "fat gaining" foods. One can get "cut" eating a snickers or having cake. 1000 extra calories are still 1000 extra calories. I can see the argument that spiking insulin throughout the day with sugar will lead to fat gain over maintaining stable insulin levels with protein intake but at the end of the day the calories are still EXTRA.

No sadly you would still add fat below maintenance, and lose muscle. With sugar, not so much with other carbohydrates

Absolutely someone can gain fat below maintenance!!!

The dogmas surrounding dietary fats and the idea of protein damaging kidneys leads people to eat these extremely high carbohydrate diets while also attempting to loose weight by taking in calories below maintenance and what is the result? The ever so popular "skinny fat" body type you see just about everywhere you look.

What you are forgetting AustrianOakJr is not everyone will take in their minimums of fat and protein intake. Overall calorie consumption will determine scale weight but what those calories consist of is what will determine body composition. If you take a person who calorie maintenance is at 2000 calories and put them on a 2000 diet that is high in carbs, low in protein and with fat almost non existent.. while the person might loose scale weight the ratio of body fat to lean muscles has the opportunity to change and you end up with a skinny-fat person. Recomp works both ways

 

[AustrianOakJr]

What you are forgetting AustrianOakJr is not everyone will take in their minimums of fat and protein intake. Overall calorie consumption will determine scale weight but what those calories consist of is what will determine body composition. If you take a person who calorie maintenance is at 2000 calories and put them on a 2000 diet that is high in carbs, low in protein and with fat almost non existent.. while the person might loose scale weight the ratio of body fat to lean muscles has the opportunity to change and you end up with a skinny-fat person. Recomp works both ways

Oh, I agree. Its certainly possible to re-comp going the wrong way. But I think you would have to be a total idiot to do it.

Somehow its seems like I keep getting into these theoretical discussions which really don't exist amongst bodybuilders and even general fitness enthusiasts. I dont think anyone was considering eating solely carbohydrates as their diet. That is why I specified in my reply "assuming the person is eating adequate protein and fat......" a high GI carb will not magically allow for a net positive storage of bodyfat. My main point is that carb source is really not super critical in a calorie deficit. *disclaimer - this does not mean I endorse eating pop rocks and cotton candy as a primary carb source while dieting.

 

[JudoJosh]

Oh, I agree. Its certainly possible to re-comp going the wrong way. But I think you would have to be a total idiot to do it.

You would be surprised, it is actually quite often you will find someone trying to diet down to loose weight and end up loosing muscle & gaining fat while eating below maintenance. The majority people in society view their weight as a scale number and dont take into account body composition or even understand the very basic fundamentals of nutrition.

Somehow its seems like I keep getting into these theoretical discussions which really don't exist amongst bodybuilders and even general fitness enthusiasts. I dont think anyone was considering eating solely carbohydrates as their diet.

I think you are getting your threads mixed up. That was a separate discussion where I used that to illustrate a point. No one in this thread mentions a diet of soley one macro-nutrient

That is why I specified in my reply "assuming the person is eating adequate protein and fat......" a high GI carb will not magically allow for a net positive storage of bodyfat. My main point is that carb source is really not super critical in a calorie deficit. *disclaimer - this does not mean I endorse eating pop rocks and cotton candy as a primary carb source while dieting.

That may be true if your only concern is how you look but there is a lot more to life then getting "ripped" my friend. You need to realize not everyone hear has the goals or aspirations of getting on a stage and competing or wants "striations in their ass". Yes one can loose weight or get cut or get big eating all sorts of junk food but "cut & ripped" doesnt necessarily equal healthy and personally my health is far more important than my looks.

At the end of the day calories in vs calories out is what determines weight gain while your macro ratios will determine body composition and the selection of your food will determine your health. Why limit yourself when you can have it all? Why eat nutrient void food? just cuz it taste good?

But whatever enjoy your cakes and pies and striations in your ass.. more power to you bud! My dinner tonight was steak, potatoes and avocado and I am pretty satisfied myself. I think I am gonna make some banana custard for dessert (coconut milk, bananas & eggs) :food:

 

[AustrianOakJr]

You would be surprised, it is actually quite often you will find someone trying to diet down to loose weight and end up loosing muscle & gaining fat while eating below maintenance. The majority people in society view their weight as a scale number and dont take into account body composition or even understand the very basic fundamentals of nutrition.

Well, I am new to AM forums. I spend much of my time in the contest prep section on bodybuilding.com. In that forum everyone is a bodybuilder so certain things are almost assumed.

That may be true if your only concern is how you look but there is a lot more to life then getting "ripped" my friend. You need to realize not everyone hear has the goals or aspirations of getting on a stage and competing or wants "striations in their ass". Yes one can loose weight or get cut or get big eating all sorts of junk food but "cut & ripped" doesnt necessarily equal healthy and personally my health is far more important than my looks.

At the end of the day calories in vs calories out is what determines weight gain while your macro ratios will determine body composition and the selection of your food will determine your health. Why limit yourself when you can have it all? Why eat nutrient void food? just cuz it taste good?

But whatever enjoy your cakes and pies and striations in your ass.. more power to you bud! My dinner tonight was steak, potatoes and avocado and I am pretty satisfied myself. I think I am gonna make some banana custard for dessert (coconut milk, bananas & eggs) :food:

Actually, I completely agree with you. Despite my mission to "beat back the bro" and drive home the point that eating "clean" is not necessary, my diet is very healthy. I am not an over-the-top junk food nut. But I do regularly eat foods not deemed "clean" by the brethren. Breakfast was eggs, high fiber flat-out, and a bowl of oats. Lunch was grilled chicken, rice and corn. PWO I had a whey sludge cake. Dinner tonight was a lean cheesburger on a high-fiber flat bun and a bowl of organic vegetable barley soup. And then one more pumpkin whey sludge cake just before bed......just to get some dirty carbs in right before bed. Im in a slight caloric deficit right now as im trying to trim up a smidge. So, obviously I am not a health food freak, but im not a total junk nut either. I am pretty moderate in my diet and consider myself healthier than 99.9% of the general population. And quite honestly I think this is a great place to be. I think "health nuts" get way too obsessed. And obviously people who eat crap all the time have bigger issues. So, IMOP moderation is key.

My mistake in assuming everyone wants striations in their ass. Wait, wut??? Seriously? J/K

And to answer your question "why eat nutrient void foods"? YES....because it tastes good! There is nothing wrong with enjoying your food. And eating crap in moderation will not harm you in any significant way assuming most of your diet is based in solid, whole foods rich in micro-nutrients and phyto-nutrients. So eat yer cake, ok?

 

[JudoJosh]

Well, I am new to AM forums. I spend much of my time in the contest prep section on bodybuilding.com. In that forum everyone is a bodybuilder so certain things are almost assumed.

I am not a member of BB.com and never have been so I am sure if I went there I would encounter debates left in right..

AM is a great place with some very intelligent people. You might run into a couple "broscience" guys here and there but quite a few people here actually know what they are talking about.

Actually, I completely agree with you. Despite my mission to "beat back the bro" and drive home the point that eating "clean" is not necessary, my diet is very healthy. I am not an over-the-top junk food nut. But I do regularly eat foods not deemed "clean" by the brethren.

My biggest problem here is the term "clean" is extremely subjective.. a lot of different people have a their own definition as what "clean" is.. Hell the other day I had a bowl of oatmeal at a family event (because I haven't had one in such a long time) and felt guilty and was pissed cuz I ate a dirty food! LOL.. Then I come home and have jalapeño peppers filled with cream cheese and wrapped with bacon and I consider that "healthy eating" .. Point being healthy for you isn't the same for someone else. When I say healthy I am not talking about grilled skinless chicken breast and steamed broccoli. Most likely your "bad" foods that you are eating are foods I consider healthy and your healthy foods I consider a waste of calories. But this is just my opinion and my goal isn't to project my food selection onto anyone but open their mind to challenging the traditional neutrino dogmas that surround the fitness community.

Breakfast was eggs, high fiber flat-out, and a bowl of oats. Lunch was grilled chicken, rice and corn. PWO I had a whey sludge cake. Dinner tonight was a lean cheesburger on a high-fiber flat bun and a bowl of organic vegetable barley soup. And then one more pumpkin whey sludge cake just before bed......just to get some dirty carbs in right before bed. Im in a slight caloric deficit right now as im trying to trim up a smidge. So, obviously I am not a health food freak, but im not a total junk nut either. I am pretty moderate in my diet and consider myself healthier than 99.9% of the general population. And quite honestly I think this is a great place to be. I think "health nuts" get way too obsessed. And obviously people who eat crap all the time have bigger issues. So, IMOP moderation is key.

I wouldn't classify them as "health nuts" but I think a lot of people in the fitness circle tend to try and over complicate things more than they need to be. Stressing over such minor details..

BTW what is this "sludge cake" you speak of?

I used to make this whey & peanut butter cake about a year ago that was my go to favorite snack but since I cut peanut butter out of my diet I don't really eat it as much. I tried it once with almond butter but it wasn't the same. However I did see a jar of homemade cashew butter at the Amish market the other day and now that you mention sludge cake I think I might try and make mine with cashew butter and see how it comes out. But anyway what is your sludge cake?

And to answer your question "why eat nutrient void foods"? YES....because it tastes good! There is nothing wrong with enjoying your food. And eating crap in moderation will not harm you in any significant way assuming most of your diet is based in solid, whole foods rich in micro-nutrients and phyto-nutrients. So eat yer cake, ok?

Oh I do enjoy my food.. very much so

 

[mattrag]

I agree. Clean is very subjective. Some ppl consider whole wheat foods clean but if you read wheat belly or read up on auto inflammatory diseases and causes you will find that wheat is definitely no clean for a lot of ppl. While I eat loads of fats. None of it comes out of a box. I also don't cook with any oils other than meat fats or coconut oils. Ill use lard or cook my veggies with meat fats. I'll fry up sweet potatoes in coconut oils.
Now does this give best body comp? Not really but I just came off two auto immune diseases I got from eating "clean" on what most consider clean. Brown rice, whole wheat only, oats, and NO fats other than what was on my meats.
I know loads of bodybuilders who will diet till game day eating all of the said above. (not personally)
I also enjoy eating but I just can't eat certain things. But I've kept reasonably good bodycomp while not counting calories and eating pretty much whatever I want. Most ppl on this forum I feel aim for being strong, being as lean as possible, many use a few aesthetic enhancers but there are a lot who don't. Also, many of the members don't live the bodybuilding life. Just trying to incorporate all we can to be strong, look great and live forever lol.

I could be completely wrong. But like everything in the Internet take it with a grain of salt, and don't take it personally.

 

[OrganicShadow]

I hear you and agree. When I say clean my aim is to avoid anything processed. Dairy, wheat, lards, etc.

I do use oils, but only nut oils and sesame is my choice. Ever nut butters are kinda ehh.
I cant eat all organic meats, I just dont make that kind of money. But ground meats just dont fly with me. Most of my protein comes from fish maybe some chicken and lean red meats. From time to time pork.
Brown rice, yams, black beans, steel cut oats. Thats about it for carbs.
I stick to green, fibrous vegetables. I steer away from sugary ones like carrots and squash. cauliflower, onions, sharlottes are acceptable.
I usually have about 1 serving of fruits in my diet. Apples, bananas, grapefruit, blueberries. I love em though, usually thats what I crave.

 

[AustrianOakJr]

Good discussion guys. Yes, I recognize that there is more to diet than looking good in posing trunks. For me, thats where I am at though. I have read a bit on the benefits of eating organic/whole foods and the detriments of eating processed food and I think there is some merit to it. And I do very well at INCORPORATING it into my diet. However, I just dont believe its worth going out of my way to avoid certain foods all the time because I dont think the negatives outway the inconvenience. I am open to advice on it though....perhaps im wrong.

My diet consists of quite a few "processed" foods bc its pretty darn hard to avoid "processing" altogether. And in reality.....what is processing anyways? I think its important to qualify that statement because there is certain processing that might be considered harmful....preservatives, sugar alcohols,etc. But fast cooked oats vs. steel cut? Well, technically they are both processed.....one more than the other.....but why avoid either? Perhaps some might have a specific reaction but beyond that??? Almond butter is processed.....honey is processed....it doesnt mean anything specifically to "process" foods. And chances are if you are buying a whole food, you are bringing it home and 'processing' it anyways, right?

. But anyway what is your sludge cake?

Well, you would probably find it an abomination to "clean" eating because pancake mix is the main ingredient. But DANG its sooo good. IMOP, a great way to get your carbs and protein with little fat. I eat several of these per week. Check out the link.
Invalid Link Removed

 

[JudoJosh]

Good discussion guys. Yes, I recognize that there is more to diet than looking good in posing trunks. For me, thats where I am at though. I have read a bit on the benefits of eating organic/whole foods and the detriments of eating processed food and I think there is some merit to it. And I do very well at INCORPORATING it into my diet. However, I just dont believe its worth going out of my way to avoid certain foods all the time because I dont think the negatives outway the inconvenience. I am open to advice on it though....perhaps im wrong.

If you are truly open to learning and have the time buy the book "Paleo Diet" and give it a read. That and omnivore dilemma were life changing books for me. Organic food isnt the be all end all either. Recent law changes have blurred the term orgranic meaning just cuz it says organic it doesnt mean it really is. A majority of my food is purchased from local farms but not everything as not everything is able to grown or raised locally.

 

[mattrag]

If you are truly open to learning and have the time buy the book "Paleo Diet" and give it a read. That and omnivore dilemma were life changing books for me. Organic food isnt the be all end all either. Recent law changes have blurred the term orgranic meaning just cuz it says organic it doesnt mean it really is. A majority of my food is purchased from local farms but not everything as not everything is able to grown or raised locally.

Yea. That book is great. I recommend reading it for sure.

 

[AustrianOakJr]

If you are truly open to learning and have the time buy the book "Paleo Diet" and give it a read. That and omnivore dilemma were life changing books for me. Organic food isnt the be all end all either. Recent law changes have blurred the term orgranic meaning just cuz it says organic it doesnt mean it really is. A majority of my food is purchased from local farms but not everything as not everything is able to grown or raised locally.

I am actually reading the Omnivores Dilemma right now. Im only into it about 3 chapters and im enjoying it so far. Afterwards, ill check out the Paleo diet. Thanks for the "advices" (as Arnold would say).

 

[jblift]

I would just keep your normal diet, but add a little bit to each meal. Then, get a mass builder shake to add some cals. I personally had amazing results with ultimate nutrition isomass extreme.

 

[Smith1108]

I just eat 200 to 300 over maintenance and make small adjustments as I go adding or lowering cals it takes a long tome to lean bulk but in the long run it is a lot better than having to burn a lot of fat on a cut... I also stick to low GI foods except I may have like some starchy carbs for breakfast

 

[Iron Warrior]

vitamin Tren = muscle w/out fat

Build slowly if you don't want to go that route. Shoot for 2 pounds a month, this is 24 pound in 1 year so keep that number in mind as you go along. Eat clean for better results.

 

[OrganicShadow]

I am actually reading the Omnivores Dilemma right now. Im only into it about 3 chapters and im enjoying it so far. Afterwards, ill check out the Paleo diet. Thanks for the "advices" (as Arnold would say).

I The Omnivore's Dilemma too. Really changed my perspective on things. Especially the fallacies that are the USDA and FDA

 

[AustrianOakJr]

Especially the fallacies that are the USDA and FDA

Oh please....a total joke.

 

[MrL]

Im 6 feet tall and weigh 160 my goal for now is to hit two hundred can I do this without putting on fat or do I have to bulk then strip I like my six pack alot so im
Hoping that you guys have some good news

Personally i prefer to gain as much mass as possible when bulking as that way i know that im providing enough nutrients to grow to my full potential. Id be scared to lean bulk incase i was hindering gains by not having enough nutrients.

If you logically plan your year when to bulk and when to cut then your abs can be on show during the summer months and only covered up during the winter, this seems the best option to me. Living in Wales, summer doesnt exist for me so i dont have to worry about my abs too much lol

 

[AustrianOakJr]

Personally i prefer to gain as much mass as possible when bulking as that way i know that im providing enough nutrients to grow to my full potential. Id be scared to lean bulk incase i was hindering gains by not having enough nutrients.

If you logically plan your year when to bulk and when to cut then your abs can be on show during the summer months and only covered up during the winter, this seems the best option to me. Living in Wales, summer doesnt exist for me so i dont have to worry about my abs too much lol

For an ecto morph who has trouble putting on weight this is not a bad way to go. But for most people, bodyfat would be excessive if you went about bulking in a no-holds-barred type of way. Personally, I could be 10 lbs heavier by the end of the week if I chose to eat anything and everything I wanted. If you are putting on excessive bodyfat, then you are not maximizing your gains this way because the cut at the end of the bulk would have to be so drastic you would lose much of the muscle you gained on your bulk. For most natural bodybuilders, a very slow rate of gain is the optimal way to put on muscle.

 

[gnc_gymrat]

In high school I was 120 I'm 18 and just graduated last year. I've been working out seriously for 3 years ever since I was told that I was a skinny bitch. I took the occasional protein shake, nitric oxide pills, creatine etc. But when I took them I noticed significant gains in mass. Not rip. So I decided to just take the occasional shake and creatine, then keep working out everyday I could fit a serious workout... I haven't seen much gain bcuz I look at myself in the mirror everyday, but all my friends are like wow... U gained a **** ton! Your ripped or your in damn good shape. I just now started eating right. And I've been hovering At 150 to say the least I'm doing damn good bcuz I was a skinny bitch before.
So bottom line if u want to gain muscle without fat... You have to ea

 

[gnc_gymrat]

In high school I was 120 I'm 18 and just graduated last year. I've been working out seriously for 3 years ever since I was told that I was a skinny bitch. I took the occasional protein shake, nitric oxide pills, creatine etc. But when I took them I noticed significant gains in mass. Not rip. So I decided to just take the occasional shake and creatine, then keep working out everyday I could fit a serious workout... I haven't seen much gain bcuz I look at myself in the mirror everyday, but all my friends are like wow... U gained a **** ton! Your ripped or your in damn good shape. I just now started eating right. And I've been hovering At 150 to say the least I'm doing damn good bcuz I was a skinny bitch before.
So bottom line if u want to gain muscle without fat... You have to eat right. Add intensity through every workout and fin the regimen that fits you. Make sure u get alot of amino acids in your diet bcuz a specific amount u can only workout out fir so long. U want to be intense and fierce in the gym. Even though u might not be lifting as much as everyone else just work on your personal gain. I weigh 150 I'm 5'11 and I can bench 205. Squat 275. And deadlift 350. Before I could barely do 125 for bench. 175 for squat. And 225 for deadlift... I was weak but now I'm still not happy till my bench is over 250 at least. So one of the challenges as a person trying to build muscle mass naturally without fat is criticism. U have to be able to listen to the negative people and take that judgment from other people and throw that motivation into your workout. Hit it hard in the weightroom. And get the hell out of there so u have time to recover!!! Eat right and get rest!

 

[MrL]

For an ecto morph who has trouble putting on weight this is not a bad way to go. But for most people, bodyfat would be excessive if you went about bulking in a no-holds-barred type of way. Personally, I could be 10 lbs heavier by the end of the week if I chose to eat anything and everything I wanted. If you are putting on excessive bodyfat, then you are not maximizing your gains this way because the cut at the end of the bulk would have to be so drastic you would lose much of the muscle you gained on your bulk. For most natural bodybuilders, a very slow rate of gain is the optimal way to put on muscle.

Too be honest you make a fair point as i did gain an excessive amount of fat during my last bulk (ive got pics showing my progress on my profile page)

I consider myself an ectomorph and i didnt feel i could be too picky with food as i struggled to consume enough calories if i stuck to clean foods. However my new bulk plan is alot better structured this time and will be roughly 500-1000 surplus cals. I could cut this amount for leaner gains but for me this is what i feel comfortable consuming.

I understand what your saying about losing muscle whilst cutting naturally but i used tren during my last cycle whilst cutting and felt like i maintained alot of the muscle that i gained because of it.