Muliculturism has Failed

[samiisbe]

Multiculturalism is quite obviously a failure anywhere you go. You can't have multiple groups who think and act differently and expect them to live peacefully among each other. The very definition of multiculturalism can be summed up as "cluster-fck of beliefs."

Read the US Constitution. If you agree with it, stay in the States. If you don't, you shouldn't be here. - The United States Culture is the United States Constitution; the Supreme Law of the Land. It is NOT a living document. It is NOT flexible.

So many ignorant citizens believe the Constitution to be this massive rule book for their lives when in fact it's a small, almost pamphlet size article that says what the government cannot do.

Case Law has completely fcked up our constitution and has made it completely unrecognizable. It's almost as if they've copied a cassette tape, and made a copy of the copy, and then a copy of that copy, and so on to where the instruments and lyrics can't even be made out anymore.

Speaking of the constituion i'm confused where "the right to bear arms" became the right to keep one only in your house in a gun safe and never actually 'bear'(carry) it?

 

[omni]

I will now never support anything from Utah. Irish Cannon has it right, case law is screwing up the constitution. Utah Grants Amnesty to Illegals. Check out this link...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/30/obama-punts-as-utah-grants-amnesty-to-illegals/

 

[vinnythestick]

There was still the established american conservative culture, which has slowly been dismantled by the progressives. Also the huge influx of hispanic illegal aliens who have piles of children once they manage to cross the border has been continuing to push a change in the established US culture.

Hi, everyone. This is my first post and I'd like to say I feel glad to be joining the ranks. I find this forum very interesting for several reasons:

A) Most people on here wouldn't be considered fat, and or lazy which has pretty much become some sort of standard in America... it's nice to connect with people that share my values in basic health consciousness.

B) This forum makes me think of steroids which is ummm.... not PC, but is structured in such a fashion as to promote intelligence, health, and sensibility (and from what I've seen so far doesn't even promote steroid usage but to be honest I haven't had the chance to examine the forum well enough). Awesome, now if only we can all get marijuana legalized too .

C) This politics section of the forum seems to be filled with intellectual people capable of analyzing information and delivering opinion without getting stereotypical, or "current-fashioned" in the defense of their views and stances.

To put it quite simply, I think this is the best forum I have ever witnessed.


Now moving on to your quote ImJ2x, sorry I raped the thread haha.

Obviously, you aren't the type of person that needs to be corrected, I've already seen this in plenty of your well written responses, but I cant help but notice your remark on latin people. Without calling you names you don't deserve to be called, I have to poke a little fun at you. I'm one of three children my mother had when she legally entered the United States from the Dominican Republic. I'm 24, an entrepreneur, a veteran, I live in NYC, and I'm finishing up my bachelors. When you discuss The Great Experiment, I want you to imagine a case study such as mine. A Chicago born native that's seen race relations between blacks and whites evolve over my lifetime.

From my experience you have 2 different types of whites, those that still feel bad about racism, and inequality, and those that are defensive about it. The ones that feel bad tend to overcompensate i.e. "whites can never say nigga" considering how popular the word is in mainstream media, considering how many white people buy albums from black celebrities, and considering just how much black culture has benefitted from white support, I think its safe to use a word that's now considered a term of endearment. I know plenty of whites that wish they can say something like "you my nigga" without fear of persecution. the ones that feel defensive are usually harder to define. they can be racist, they can have disdain for black activists, they can claim reverse racism, they feel cheated by affirmative action, etc. These arent always bad people, they're just tired of looking like the bad guys, and some embrace the role or had bad parenting and backwards communities which encourage racist behavior. The third and unmentioned type of whites are the ones that dont care, they prefer phrases like "to each their own".

Blacks fall into categories as well. Some feel as if the world hates them, and act accordingly. They suffer from low self-esteem, come from all the bad areas, and literally become products of their environments. As we all know, it's a slippery slope, and many can't recover. This perpetuates the "ghetto" mentality, that whites hate blacks and blacks will never get anywhere. On the other hand, you have the MILLIONS of blacks that have thrived, and are now very successful people, and birth successful children. Our freaking president is black for crying out loud. I believe they are the single biggest reason race relations are progressing exponentially. Not only are they living proof that blacks can make it, but also proof that whites arent 'evil'. They strengthen race relations all across the board. The third type of black is the conspiracy theorist. To them all whites are the devil, white news spins black people to be gangsters, and black people are victims. These people strain race relations, and they strain black self-esteem. I think these Al Sharptons of the world are like the racist tea-partyers. Just there to mess it up for everyone.

Everything else is other. hispanics, european-americans (wait are they white?), asians, orientals. We're still on the sidelines.

The comment you made about illegal hispanics can be misconstrued on so many levels. I could go Al Sharpton on you and say all sorts of things about your racist rant and blah, blah, blah. but as an american that has sat on the sidelines of this white/black racism 'thing', I know the only respectful way to put an end to discriminatory behavior is: don't be a douche bro, its not cool. the last thing anyone needs is a disparaging comment made towards hispanics. the last thing anyone needs is a disparaging comment made towards ANY race.

Though its annoying for me to write this, and probably even more annoying for anyone to read it, we have to acknowledge ****ed up **** when we see it. Now I better make sure I dont say anything bad about chinks lmao.

Vin.

 

[vinnythestick]

Just don't make the assumption that all these freeloaders are the "step children." The vast majority of them are biological children (to use your analogy).
Not to mention the fact that we all came into this "family" from other places. And for the same reason they come today: economic opportunity.
[Yes, I realize I'm that rare Conservative who is pro-immigration. (Although George W. was the same.) I just wish we could bring more order to the situation by securing the border, and streamling the Naturalization process. And granting Amnesty/Citizenship to the vast majority of "illegals" who are gainfully employed (and willing to learn English) and deporting the relatively few who aren't.]
--The World, According To J2x

case in point exactly. i almost feel bad for criticizing your first post, you definitely believe in equality.

 

[EasyEJL]

case in point exactly. i almost feel bad for criticizing your first post, you definitely believe in equality.

Believing in equality isn't incompatible with believing people who entered the country illegally should be sent back to their homes

 

[vinnythestick]

Wait. WOW, I just realized something.... Ok my complaint was with EasyEJL, Imj2x has nothing to do with this.

Your last comment Easy is true. That wasnt my argument, my argument was in the context of your words. You offhandedly classified every hispanic as an illegal and a baby factory. You singlehandedly transformed a thread which could have been about french multiculturalism into an illegal immigrant discussion. Yes, we all know conservative americans still claim rights to this country, but summarizing the entire shift of american culture with "illegal immigrant baby factories?"

Not to say anything bad about you, but you stereotyped an entire race.

Maybe the face of the country is changing because of the amount of gays that have slipped into mainstream media, or the amount of black americans that have and are finding success, or the insane amount of cultural transformation occuring because of the internet.

I highly doubt border jumpers that pick lettuce and cotton are doing any damage.

 

[EasyEJL]

I highly doubt border jumpers that pick lettuce and cotton are doing any damage.

I never categorized a race as such, I used federal government statistics on birth rates. And I have no prejudices against any person of any race that has a right to be in this country. I'm married to a Hispanic woman, and have a rainbow of friends.

But the border jumpers that pick lettuce do cause damage, huge damage. Right now estimates are something over 12 million illegals here. With no access to social security, food stamps, etc, its reasonable to assume the majority are working. Unemployment is around 14 million people. Still they are no harm?

Their children born here are citizens (and recall, the constitutional amendment for that was designed so that when slaves were given rights their children became citizens) which is fine, other than the occurrence of pregnant women border hopping then getting on welfare, food stamps, etc in the child's name after they are born. What's worst about these kids though is that they aren't raised as or to be Americans, the are raised as Mexicans living in America. And that's wrong.

 

[seccsi]

The problem isn't with the illegals themselves, people get mad at the wrong people. If I told you that you could jump this fence and have a lot better life would you do it? I'd say the vast majority of us would. So basically people get mad at those who come here because the opportunity is better. Not to mention I don't think illegals are taking a lot of high quality work. Why are we getting angry at these people and not the business men who hire them?

They are being hired for two reasons...either they will do the work no one else wants (which I think a LOT of people ignore this fact), or they will do the work cheaper. It blows my mind that people get mad directly at these usually uneducated people who are working the crappiest of the crap jobs and not getting mad at the very wealthy people who hire them to save some money. It's a simple fact, if jobs weren't available they wouldn't come over here. You're blaming the wrong people.

I guess that just surprises me. People's beef is with the uneducated guy who's working some of the ****tiest jobs in existence for **** wages and they AREN'T mad at the rich guys sitting on a yacht paying these people less than what they'd pay someone who's legal?

That's when I think race does play a big part in this. I hear people say racist crap about illegal immigrants all the time. And it blows my mind that people would get mad at them and ignore the other guys. Then again I suppose when you're white and racist it doesn't make sense to get mad at a white guy.

Let Maddox talk some sense into these morons: http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

 

[EasyEJL]

You again are totally off. They don't work for big corporations, they work for small businesses. And as far as them doing jobs nobody else would do, that's the biggest liberal joke line ever. Those jobs would still need to be done if the illegals weren't here, and people would do them.

The other liberal joke line is the wealthy paying less in taxes. It's just flat out untrue. You can say it all you want, and it makes an emotional line, but the irs data disagrees.

 

[RawStrength]

You again are totally off. They don't work for big corporations, they work for small businesses. And as far as them doing jobs nobody else would do, that's the biggest liberal joke line ever. Those jobs would still need to be done if the illegals weren't here, and people would do them.

The other liberal joke line is the wealthy paying less in taxes. It's just flat out untrue. You can say it all you want, and it makes an emotional line, but the irs data disagrees.

Dont really want be involved in the pointless debate here but Just a quick correction, a vast majority of illegal immigrants are in fact employed by corporations. Many meat packaging plants employ almost entirely illegals, hell some advertise in Mexico and then bus them into the states illegally. And no it's not that Americans WONT do the job it's Americans won't do the job under those ****ty conditions.

 

[RawStrength]

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/llr/vol9/tanger.php

 

[omni]

Hey Rawstrength, I enjoyed the article. I imagine that The prosecution would have been considered as "pro-Republican" and the defense "pro-Democrat." So to me this quote...

"C. Counts Dismissed

Twenty-four counts were dismissed. Nine counts alleging violations relating to Social Security cards were dismissed on the defendants’ motion due to the court’s refusal to interpret “identification document” as listed in 18 U.S.C. § 1546(b) to include Social Security cards.[161] Fifteen other counts were dismissed, including all of the seven related to bringing illegal aliens to the United States for the purpose of commercial advantage and private financial gain,[162] seven of the ten counts related to transporting illegal aliens for the purpose of commercial advantage and private finan-cial gain,[163] and one of the eight counts of causing, inducing, aiding and abetting illegal aliens to possess counterfeit immigration and work authorization documents.[164]
D. The Jury Acquittal

Only twelve of the original thirty-six counts remained when it was time for the jury to deliberate. After seven weeks of trial, the jury deliberated for less than one day and brought back a verdict of “not guilty” on all counts.[165] The company and other defendants were acquitted of all remaining charges, which had alleged that they conspired to recruit and smuggle unauthorized workers to work in poultry processing plants.[166] No fines were imposed and no one went to jail.

After the verdict, jurors said prosecutors were unconvincing.[167] “We felt like the government didn’t properly present its case. There were a lot of loopholes,” said one forty-three-year-old female juror.[168] "

...means that many laws were broken and thanks to the defense, our "American" laws were not upheld.

Where is OSHA? shouldn't they make sure that a business like Tyson is safe for American or Legal immigrants to work in? No human should have to work in unsafe working conditions. Maybe companies like Tyson should follow all laws and regulations.
I really do feel bad for the poor in Mexico. I've been there and seen it. I especially feel bad for the ones who WANT to work. If I were one of them I would do everything I could to get out of poverty too.
For people who want to come here and work there is a Green Card designed for just that. If they decide to stay and live here there's the process of becoming a citizen. If the youth and lazy Americans don't want to certain jobs, then those jobs should be available to immigrants willing to obey OUR laws and get a Green Card. How much money in taxes are being lost to illegal immigration? The solution isn't to simply tax the rich but, to go after the employers helping people get out of paying taxes. Who pays zero taxes? Go after those people for additional revenue.

As far as multiculturalism, if your goal is to reject 235 years of U.S. history and culture by changing it into your vision of Latin hood, then Spanish-only barrios make sense. There is also the option of going back where you came from if this country’s customs, language, religion, and culture offend you.
Most legal immigrants came here for something better and to become an American, not to change America into what they just moved away from.

I think its funny to see how many Black and Hispanic people vote for Democrats and not Republicans. Most illegal immigrants aren't bad people and have good "moral" values and seem, by there values, that they ARE Republicans. My best friend voted for Obama because he's Black. I talked to a mexican guy And he said that the Democrats are the "brown Government" and the Republicans are the "white Government." Thats the furthest thing from the truth.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican. Back then, almost all black Americans were Republicans because since 1854 until today they've been the anti-slavery party , the Republican Party has been for freedom and civil rights for blacks. The Democrat Party has always been, the party of the four S's: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.
It was the Democrats who fought to keep blacks in slavery and passed the Jim Crow laws. The Democrats started the Ku Klux Klan to lynch and terrorize blacks. The Democrats fought to prevent the passage of every civil rights law beginning with the civil rights laws of the 1860s, and continuing with the civil rights laws of the 1950s and 1960s.

Dr. King was fighting the Democrats who stood in the school house doors, turned skin-burning fire hoses on blacks and let loose dogs on them. It was a "Republican President" (Eisenhower) who pushed to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1957. It was was Eisenhower who actually took action to end segregation in the military.

John F. Kennedy is lauded as a proponent of civil rights, but, Kennedy voted against the 1957 Civil Rights Act while he was still a senator. It was Democrat Atty. Gen. Robert Kennedy, had Dr. King wiretapped and investigated by the FBI on suspicion of being a Communist in order to undermine Dr. King.

In March of 1968, while referring to Dr. King's leaving Memphis, Tennessee, Democrat Sen. Robert Byrd (W.Va.), a former member of the Ku Klux Klan, called Dr. King a "trouble-maker" who starts trouble. A few weeks later, Dr. King returned to Memphis and was assassinated on April 4, 1968.
It was the Republicans who fought to free blacks from slavery and amended the Constitution to grant blacks freedom (13th Amendment), citizenship (14th Amendment) and the right to vote (15th Amendment). Republicans passed the civil rights laws of the 1860s, including the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Reconstruction Act of 1867 that was designed to establish a new government system in the Democrat-controlled South, one that was fair to blacks. Republicans also started the NAACP and affirmative action with Republican President Richard Nixon.
Few black Americans know that it was Republicans who founded the Historically Black Colleges and Universities.

Republican Sen. Barry Goldwater, in 1964, wanted to force the Democrats in the South to stop passing discriminatory laws and end the need to continuously enact federal civil rights legislation.

Democrat President Lyndon Johnson, in 1967, because Dr. King's was protesting against the Vietnam War, the Democrat President referred to Dr. King as "that Nigger preacher."

Democrats, the racist "Dixiecrats" did not all migrate to the Republican Party. "Dixiecrats" declared that they would rather vote for a "yellow dog" than vote for a Republican because the Republican Party was know as the party for blacks. Today, some of those "Dixiecrats" continue their political careers as Democrats, including Robert Byrd, who is well known for having been a "Keagle" in the Ku Klux Klan.

I can go on and on but maybe later.

 

[seccsi]

You again are totally off. They don't work for big corporations, they work for small businesses. And as far as them doing jobs nobody else would do, that's the biggest liberal joke line ever. Those jobs would still need to be done if the illegals weren't here, and people would do them.

The other liberal joke line is the wealthy paying less in taxes. It's just flat out untrue. You can say it all you want, and it makes an emotional line, but the irs data disagrees.

I don't know what you mean by totally off. You were wrong on Reagan and you're wrong on this. The idea that illegals don't work for corporations is laughable. Hell when I was younger I WORKED for big businesses that hired illegals. The point doesn't change, if people didn't hire them they wouldn't be here.

We had a lot of illegals when unemployment was lower so your laughable stance that we have a high unemployment is just because of illegals is factually wrong. Illegals ARE doing ****ty jobs no one else will do for less. You can try and call that a joke line, but it's true. Are illegals taking great jobs and doing them in great conditions? You're insane to think that. And I don't know what you were going with on the tax thing because I didn't mention anything about that.

I don't have time to prove you wrong on everything because you don't want to believe anything other than what you've said. Very similar to Reagan where I proved that he was big government, you have a stance and you won't bend on it. I don't have time for arguments with close minded people, it doesn't matter what you show them they will continue to keep their head in the sand. By all means be mad at the wrong people, a lot of Americans are.

 

[seccsi]

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/llr/vol9/tanger.php

Let's not let facts get in the way of strong appeals to emotion. Strong appeals to emotion are the broscience of political thought. It's ignoring everything that could be counter to your argument which is what most of our politicians do anyways.

 

[RawStrength]

Let's not let facts get in the way of strong appeals to emotion. Strong appeals to emotion are the broscience of political thought. It's ignoring everything that could be counter to your argument which is what most of our politicians do anyways.

Excuse me?

I don't understand your response, are you suggesting what I posted was "broscience" (made up/only based on popular beliefs and not facts) or somehow invalid?

 

[shocknyou]

In the US educational system we have "NO Grades NO Play" we simply need to to adopt this to the "NO contribute i.e. pay taxes NO benefits" the top 1% of American earners pay over half the taxes collected. Everyone needs to pay to get things in return i.e. social security and medicare; and we need to stop bailing out companies that are in debt let them fail and the customers will find another company to work with also we need to stop giving billions away in foreign aid and solving the other countries problems. We have our own problems to solve and no country will pick a fight with us if we have the biggest and most weapons. Revive the Cold War

 

[seccsi]

Excuse me?

I don't understand your response, are you suggesting what I posted was "broscience" (made up/only based on popular beliefs and not facts) or somehow invalid?

Actually just the opposite, I said you are bringing facts into debates where people just like to say things. Sure anyone can say small businesses are the only ones hiring illegals, it doesn't make it true in the least bit.

 

[RawStrength]

Actually just the opposite, I said you are bringing facts into debates where people just like to say things. Sure anyone can say small businesses are the only ones hiring illegals, it doesn't make it true in the least bit.

lol... Ohh I was confused for a sec there. Anyway I dont like to get involved in these Internet debates over politics. Just about 10 times out of 10 the other person isn't gonna cate what you say or what you bring to the table. It is extremely difficult to change someones mindset and beliefs and for something so trivial it just isn't worth the time and effort IMO

 

[seccsi]

lol... Ohh I was confused for a sec there. Anyway I dont like to get involved in these Internet debates over politics. Just about 10 times out of 10 the other person isn't gonna cate what you say or what you bring to the table. It is extremely difficult to change someones mindset and beliefs and for something so trivial it just isn't worth the time and effort IMO

Completely agreed. I don't know why I get into it. I guess you see things sometimes that you think are so false and wrong you just have to say something. It is very trivial and most people aren't going to change beliefs no matter what you put in front of them.

 

[EasyEJL]

Completely agreed. I don't know why I get into it. I guess you see things sometimes that you think are so false and wrong you just have to say something. It is very trivial and most people aren't going to change beliefs no matter what you put in front of them.

So tyson employs 11 million illegals? The majority are hires by small businesses - hotels, farms, all sorts of low skilled menial labor positions. Large corporations don't have that many of those sort of positions to go around. And you can use bad logic and words I never stated "illegals caused unenployment" to avoid the reality of the fact that regardless of when unemployment was lower it now when its higher that it would be lower without the illegals.

Illegal aliens are no different than squatters. Find an abandoned home in foreclosure. Move into it and live there. Do you somehow have a right to that home then ? No, regardless of whether you now the lawn, reprint it, etc (like the % of aliens who pay taxes or otherwise are helpful in the community). The act of breaking in to the house is the same as breaking in to this country.

 

[seccsi]

So tyson employs 11 million illegals? The majority are hires by small businesses - hotels, farms, all sorts of low skilled menial labor positions. Large corporations don't have that many of those sort of positions to go around. And you can use bad logic and words I never stated "illegals caused unenployment" to avoid the reality of the fact that regardless of when unemployment was lower it now when its higher that it would be lower without the illegals.

Illegal aliens are no different than squatters. Find an abandoned home in foreclosure. Move into it and live there. Do you somehow have a right to that home then ? No, regardless of whether you now the lawn, reprint it, etc (like the % of aliens who pay taxes or otherwise are helpful in the community). The act of breaking in to the house is the same as breaking in to this country.

No Tyson doesn't employ 11 million illegals and I never said that. You claimed illegals don't work for big corporations. That statement is demonstrably false. Large corporations hire illegals when it benefits them. Obviously if they don't have menial labor jobs they aren't hiring illegals. I don't know where you get this idea that big businesses don't hire them. As I said I've WORKED in big businesses that hire them.

This entire country since it's existence has consisted of people coming into it to try and better themselves. America, land of opportunity. This is WHY these people are coming in to the country. Its to make life better for themselves. They are coming in and working the crappiest jobs for the crappiest wages with next to no benefits. Why are you mad at them? They are only coming here to better themselves and because they can find better paying jobs in this country than where they come from.

IF PEOPLE DIDN'T HIRE ILLEGALS THEY WOULDN'T COME. It really is as simple as that. I hear racist people in my neck of the woods say every possible racist thing about these hispanic people and it disgusts me. Everyone is getting mad at the wrong person. They are getting mad at the person who has it the crappiest (the illegal worker) and ignoring the people who have it the best and benefit from it the most (the person exploiting them).

And make no mistake about it these business owners ARE exploiting them. That's why they are hired, because they will do it for less pay and no benefits. Look I'm not happy we have a lot of illegals in this country and I certainly think it is a problem. But I'm not even remotely mad at them for coming into the country to try and better their lot in life. I think a ton of us if we were in their situation would do the same. I was just pointing out the problem and solution is obvious to this problem.

 

[EasyEJL]

This country was built by people coming here legally, not jumping the border. There is a path to coming here legally available to people of most nations. The fact that some people want to jump the line because their country sucks doesn't give them the right to.

Our federal is constitutionally empowered to do 2 things - protect our borders and regulate interstate commerce. Protecting our borders includes stopping and deporting illegal aliens. The abject failure of our government to accomplish one of its 2 tasks should be what upsets you, not the people hiring them.

As even with your Harvard study, apparently there isn't a concerted purposeful effort by companies to hire illegal aliens or skirt identity verification processes or there would have been real convictions and fines. You want to know who the largest single employer of illegals is? The federal government. They exempt themselves from the same identity verification process that private businesses have to follow.

Your sympathy for the illegals based on the crappy home countries they come from is understandable, however having sympathy for then doesn't mean that because an unskilled non English speaking person manages to cross the Rio Grande that they have more right to be here than an English speaking doctor from that same country who has followed all the legal immigration procedures and is awaiting a visa.

 

[EasyEJL]

And I'll agree, the solution is obvious - stop the federal government from shirking its responsibility, and have them deal with illegals. Doing anything with employers is fruitless without that. All that it would accomplish if suddenly no illegals were employed would be creating huge ghettos of illegals, with a jump in crime and fraud. They need to be sent home.

 

[RawStrength]

The results of that specific case is irrelevant. I merely posted it just to showed your impossible did exist. As to why they won, I mean come on.. Do you have any idea the kind of budget a company like Tyson has? Does no one remember back when that cattle farm sued Oprah and dragged the case out for years and she eventually settled. And this is Oprah who many would consider a very wealthy, influential and powerful individual. The notion that "well they got not guilty so they must not have done it" is ridiculous. If that's the case the I guess OJ really didn't do it

Oh and they know exactly who they are hiring. How else do you explain them advertising seeking employers in Mexico?

The problem is Americans are cheap! They want to pay $1 for there cheeseburgers and the illegal immigrants allow that to happen.

 

[seccsi]

This country was built by people coming here legally, not jumping the border. There is a path to coming here legally available to people of most nations. The fact that some people want to jump the line because their country sucks doesn't give them the right to.

Our federal is constitutionally empowered to do 2 things - protect our borders and regulate interstate commerce. Protecting our borders includes stopping and deporting illegal aliens. The abject failure of our government to accomplish one of its 2 tasks should be what upsets you, not the people hiring them.

As even with your Harvard study, apparently there isn't a concerted purposeful effort by companies to hire illegal aliens or skirt identity verification processes or there would have been real convictions and fines. You want to know who the largest single employer of illegals is? The federal government. They exempt themselves from the same identity verification process that private businesses have to follow.

Your sympathy for the illegals based on the crappy home countries they come from is understandable, however having sympathy for then doesn't mean that because an unskilled non English speaking person manages to cross the Rio Grande that they have more right to be here than an English speaking doctor from that same country who has followed all the legal immigration procedures and is awaiting a visa.

You're shifting the goalposts, I never stated the federal government wasn't a problem or a major player. The fact of the matter is you wouldn't have an illegal alien problem if illegal aliens couldn't find work. Whether it's in the government, big business or small business the situation doesn't change. I don't get mad at the person doing crappy jobs for crappy wages in a crappy work environment. I also fully disagree that a lot of Americans are jumping at the chance to do things like pick lettuce. This idea that a lot of Americans are wanting to do some of these jobs is pretty laughable. I'm not mad at the workers, they are taking advantage of the better opportunities provided.

And I would like to see a study on the illegal aliens in the federal government. That may very well be true (it wouldn't surprise me), but it sounds like the kind of right wing talking point like baby factory, corporations don't hire illegals, etc.

You don't imagine you may act like them in a similar situation? You have a crap home or a family to provide for and I say you can make twice as much by going here? It's DIFFICULT to become an American citizen and the process is long. It's not as if you wouldn't have a lot of these people be legal if the process wasn't so complicated.

You're off on the employers thing, if they couldn't find work they wouldn't be here. It really is that simple. You should be as pissed at your average boss man citizen exploiting them as you are at the federal government. About the only person I don't really see getting pissed at is the exploited illegal, but that's what most people do. Illegal immigration costs us money and it is a problem. Which is exactly why I'm mad at the people that make it happen, employers looking to exploit workers. Whether that employer is the government, a corporation, or a mom and pop business is completely irrelevant.

 

[EasyEJL]

The results of that specific case is irrelevant. I merely posted it just to showed your impossible did exist. As to why they won, I mean come on.. Do you have any idea the kind of budget a company like Tyson has?

Oh, some corporations do have them, but the majority are in small businesses (some of which are corporations as well, I mean I owned a corporation myself, a whopping 2 of us working for it, I think total gross income over 6 years was under 40k).

But the budget that tyson has looks like my budget compared to the federal governments... So the dollars spent isn't all that meaningful when its a case vs the feds.

 

[EasyEJL]

You're shifting the goalposts, I never stated the federal government wasn't a problem or a major player. The fact of the matter is you wouldn't have an illegal alien problem if illegal aliens couldn't find work. Whether it's in the government, big business or small business the situation doesn't change. I don't get mad at the person doing crappy jobs for crappy wages in a crappy work environment. I also fully disagree that a lot of Americans are jumping at the chance to do things like pick lettuce. I'm not mad at the workers, they are taking advantage of the better opportunities provided.

You don't imagine you may act like them in a similar situation. You have a crap home or a family to provide for and I say you can make twice as much by going here? It's DIFFICULT to become an American citizen and the process is long. It's not as if you wouldn't have a lot of these people be legal if the process wasn't so long.

You're off on the employers thing, if they couldn't find work they wouldn't be here. It really is that simple. You should be as pissed at your average boss man citizen exploiting them as you are at the federal government. About the only person I don't really see getting pissed at is the illegal, but that's what most people do. Excuse me, non English speaking baby factory. :no:

Do you honestly believe the 12+ million illegals would pack up and go home if nobody hired them? Thats pretty naive. And regardless of your feeling on who is responsible for stopping illegal aliens, its a clearly delineated portion of the Constitution that the federal government is responsible to "protect each of them against invasion" (the states is what it refers to). It is an invasion, although a relatively slow one

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ois_ill_pe_2008.pdf

 

[vinnythestick]

I never categorized a race as such, I used federal government statistics on birth rates. And I have no prejudices against any person of any race that has a right to be in this country. I'm married to a Hispanic woman, and have a rainbow of friends.

But the border jumpers that pick lettuce do cause damage, huge damage. Right now estimates are something over 12 million illegals here. With no access to social security, food stamps, etc, its reasonable to assume the majority are working. Unemployment is around 14 million people. Still they are no harm?

Their children born here are citizens (and recall, the constitutional amendment for that was designed so that when slaves were given rights their children became citizens) which is fine, other than the occurrence of pregnant women border hopping then getting on welfare, food stamps, etc in the child's name after they are born. What's worst about these kids though is that they aren't raised as or to be Americans, the are raised as Mexicans living in America. And that's wrong.

Great point.

 

[seccsi]

Do you honestly believe the 12+ million illegals would pack up and go home if nobody hired them? Thats pretty naive. And regardless of your feeling on who is responsible for stopping illegal aliens, its a clearly delineated portion of the Constitution that the federal government is responsible to "protect each of them against invasion" (the states is what it refers to). It is an invasion, although a relatively slow one

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ois_ill_pe_2008.pdf

If they couldn't find work then yes. Either way you know it would end if they couldn't find jobs. The ONLY reason they come into the country is because life is better for them here or they think it will be. The exact same reason anyone ever immigrated to a country. And plenty of people are willing to hire (exploit) them here. I don't really see how you can call it an invasion when so many people are welcoming them with open arms. You don't think corporations and businesses like hiring illegals? Of course they do. You can blame it on the government all you want (and they are a huge problem), but the fact of the matter is many businesses are willingly breaking the law to hire them. It STILL blows my mind that you thought big businesses aren't hiring them. That's just factually incorrect.

My point all along is people are always mad at the illegal aliens directly which I think is pretty stupid and wasted anger. Personally I'm going to get mad at the businessmen who exploit them and the root of the problem. They are coming here and working miserable jobs in miserable conditions for miserable wages. I have a lot harder time being mad at them than the people who are exploiting them and are the reason they are here.

 

[southpaw23]

If they couldn't find work then yes. Either way you know it would end if they couldn't find jobs. The ONLY reason they come into the country is because life is better for them here or they think it will be. The exact same reason anyone ever immigrated to a country. And plenty of people are willing to hire (exploit) them here. I don't really see how you can call it an invasion when so many people are welcoming them with open arms. You don't think corporations and businesses like hiring illegals? Of course they do. You can blame it on the government all you want (and they are a huge problem), but the fact of the matter is many businesses are willingly breaking the law to hire them. It STILL blows my mind that you thought big businesses aren't hiring them. That's just factually incorrect.

My point all along is people are always mad at the illegal aliens directly which I think is pretty stupid and wasted anger. Personally I'm going to get mad at the businessmen who exploit them and the root of the problem. They are coming here and working miserable jobs in miserable conditions for miserable wages. I have a lot harder time being mad at them than the people who are exploiting them and are the reason they are here.

Well stated.

 

[EasyEJL]

If they couldn't find work then yes. Either way you know it would end if they couldn't find jobs. The ONLY reason they come into the country is because life is better for them here or they think it will be. The exact same reason anyone ever immigrated to a country.

And they've already proven that through protests etc that they now believe they fully have as much right to be here as a citizen does. You seriously are missing something if you think that just above poverty level line people will jump to heading back to their home country as soon as jobs were to disappear. Most of them wouldn't even have the financial resources to do so, and wouldn't be willing to give up "their home".

It likely would significantly slow or stop new illegals from coming in, I'll give you that.

It STILL blows my mind that you thought big businesses aren't hiring them. That's just factually incorrect.

If its a fact, show some proof. I'm doubting you can, as if you could, the Feds would have that same proof, and prosecute. The feds didn't manage to successfully litigate Tyson most likely because they couldn't prove that Tyson purposefully and willfully hired them as illegals. And sure Walmart had illegals doing floor service but they weren't Walmart employees, they had a contracted cleaning service (small businesses again) who hired the illegals.

My point all along is people are always mad at the illegal aliens directly which I think is pretty stupid and wasted anger. Personally I'm going to get mad at the businessmen who exploit them and the root of the problem. They are coming here and working miserable jobs in miserable conditions for miserable wages. I have a lot harder time being mad at them than the people who are exploiting them and are the reason they are here.

I'm not mad at the illegals, just they should go home, and if they want to live here follow the legal immigration procedure. I'm all for anyone who immigrates here legally, that is what made America great. Nobody deserves a free pass for cutting in line.

 

[seccsi]

And they've already proven that through protests etc that they now believe they fully have as much right to be here as a citizen does. You seriously are missing something if you think that just above poverty level line people will jump to heading back to their home country as soon as jobs were to disappear. Most of them wouldn't even have the financial resources to do so, and wouldn't be willing to give up "their home".

It likely would significantly slow or stop new illegals from coming in, I'll give you that.




If its a fact, show some proof. I'm doubting you can, as if you could, the Feds would have that same proof, and prosecute. The feds didn't manage to successfully litigate Tyson most likely because they couldn't prove that Tyson purposefully and willfully hired them as illegals. And sure Walmart had illegals doing floor service but they weren't Walmart employees, they had a contracted cleaning service (small businesses again) who hired the illegals.

I'm not mad at the illegals, just they should go home, and if they want to live here follow the legal immigration procedure. I'm all for anyone who immigrates here legally, that is what made America great. Nobody deserves a free pass for cutting in line.

Well the argument is what to do about the problem. You might not get everyone going home, but you've essentially stopped the problem just by making sure they don't have jobs.

As for the source well we know about Tyson, apparently you're buying Wal-Mart's "claims" that they didn't know (which worked out nicely for them), and just from google searching add ifco, chipolte, wendy's, abercrombie, gebber's farms to the list. And that was on the first site I looked. I'm sure if I dug the laundry list of big companies getting in trouble would continue.

The thing is businesses have a big incentive to hire illegals. It saves them large amounts of money. As for them going home, well again the process for becoming a citizen is pretty muddled at best. If I told you you needed to wait 7 years to provide for your family a much better income you'd wait? Especially if you knew getting here you could get a much better paying job and your kids would have access to better schools? I'm doubting it. Just like the businesses they have a large incentive to come here.

I just don't know why the first thing I hear people around here say is "damn beaners no speaking english bastards coming over here!" They are mad at the workers. It seems crazy to me to get mad at the exploited worker working crap jobs for crap pay and not at the people exploiting them. I'm not glad people come into the country illegally. But I know and understand why they do and I know it's not a golden ticket for most of them. It isn't as if illegals are coming over here and taking high quality jobs. I just place my anger at the employers exploiting them who are the ones creating the problem. Without them you wouldn't have a problem as you admitted.

 

[omni]

If employers want to hire immigrants for cheap labor, they can. There's a legal way to do it. There's an employer sponsored green card. The whole process involves three steps, Labor Certification Application, Immigrant Petition and Adjustment of Status. The average time it takes to get one of these is just under 2 years. Many people are jumping through hoops to get one and get here legally.

Again, they can go home and not be disrespectful to us or their own countrymen and get in line. I don't care if the ones going home are hard workers, the legal ones work just as hard and deserve to be here.

I think it should be black and white for employers of every size. Did you illegally hire someone? Yes- well, you just lost your contractors/business license! ---

 

[vinnythestick]

Funny how we do this illegal thing so much.

Think about the illegal workers here in New York. I work as a cater waiter, I get paid about $25 an hour and i'm a w-9 employee. So a lot of the guys I work with are illegal. Russians, Europeans, they can only find work as waiters. They are exploited, they don't pay taxes, and they don't complain cause at least it's money.

Closing the Mexican border wont stop them from coming in from Cuba, Europe, Canada or any other way illegals will get in. Do we have a serious Mexican illegal problem, yes, but why bicker about it? The question is how to solve it, instead of arguing about it.

I cant say blame the illegals, it is in man's nature to find better situations.
I can't say blame the employers, why would I pay legal citizens more when none of my competitors do? Then I'd have to raise prices, and maybe I'd lose business.

I say blame the government that doesn't regulate the system. This 'close the border' thing is a superstition. If they really want to get in, they will.

I say regulate the jobs, if we could collect taxes as well as we do, we can make employers show their employees are legal, I think we've already implemented something like this.

I say keep watch over the border, but don't try to build a wall or something dumb. They've been experimenting with video game technology to help secure the border through lasers, and infra-red optics. That'll work.

I say find a better solution for people that get caught, jail isnt really doing anything for anybody. Find out what they were doing here, who they were working for, etc. Educate them on how to legally cross the border and continue working at the same company.

I say make immigration more difficult unless the family coming can immediately make a positive contribution to the economy.

And I say close loopholes that allow businesses to do evil **** and get away with it. We have congressional committees, agencies, and offices up the ass, why can't we have one to ensure corporate and government fiscal, legal, and moral responsibility or something?

 

[vinnythestick]

I think multiculturalism is very much strengthening our country. I really believe America has always been multicultural. We are a very young country, and I think we're developing our own culture of hospitality, understanding, and strength.

To echo the words of Warren Buffet, "we're the country that got it right."

I don't think you can acknowledge American culture without also acknowledging the differences in black and white culture. Blacks and whites have been two entirely different people for a long time. The race relations have been moving pretty slowly, but I think as a people, our nation is just now getting over skin color. We still hear about the nonsense that goes on i.e. Californian principal slash white supremacist book writer. Racists at the Tea Party protests. Honestly I'll say the black image has improved as recently as Obama taking office. He generated a lot of self-respect among black people...they finally made it!

I live in Manhattan, and I always notice the Jewish community out here. I can't help but admire how connected they all seem for some reason. Its Jewish love, I guess. And I think about the positive effects it has on our communities out here, seeing them keep it in the family, keep it together.

Mexicans have always been family oriented. I also believe they very much advocate hard work, and have generally republican views. I think thats cool.

Whites have so much friggin culture as it is. Name anything and we can all agree a white guy from America has done it. And thats pretty awesome.

And were not even taking into account Asians, European-Americans, Muslims, South America, etc. We all give something to this country to make it unique. Here it doesn't matter if you are straight, gay, black, white, christian, buddhist, man, woman, ANYTHING! We all have the same freedoms here, and I think that is why we are USA.

Yes we are multicultural, but we are also competitive and live in the best free trade market there is. So here I think it works.

 

[diablosho]

You really think our nation is "getting over skin color" because Obama is in office?!? First of all, America is NOT getting over race relations! I'm only 25, and I have seen racial relations VERY QUICKLY deteriorating throughout society, ESPECIALLY since Obama took office. Hell, I'm becoming very racist, and I'm okay with it. I don't wish ANYBODY harm, but I would much prefer if everybody who wasn't white just left me alone to be with my culture in OUR OWN neighborhoods (keeping in mind I've almost died twice at the hands of blacks, ending up in the hospital each time). I'm all for segregation, because as we all see now (whether we want to admit it or not) our cultures just don't mix. Now my scars serve as a reminder of what it's like to be abandoned by your black "friends" to die when you needed them the most. I still remember watching my "friends" walk away from me as I was being choked out with barbed wire by 5 black guys (after they beat the **** out of me and told my "friends" to leave). Remember when Obama said those cops (white) acted "stupidly"? Hmmm, I have yet to hear a peep from him over racial "flash mobs", the over 1,000,000 white hate-crime victims last year (only 100,000 blacks were victims of hate-crimes last year), no hate crime in Carter Strange's case, no hate crime in the Christopher Newsom tragedy, no hate crimes in the savage beatings in Milwaukee on the 4th of July by white fireworks-watchers by dozens of blacks, you've got Eric "my people" Holder that refuses to press Hate-Crime charges when they are CLEARLY deserved, or even investigate the Black Panthers for voter intimidation in Philadelphia and elsewhere, and now we're really debating giving ILLEGALS legality for the simple reason that they succeeded in breaking the law?!? This is just ****ing crazy!

First of all, by saying that illegals work for a wage we won't work for is advocating for a form of slavery. Once they're here, working for a pittance, how can they leave if they can't afford to? They are then trapped into doing that job in the same location, all because you were unwilling to send them home where they could succeed and come here legally, allowing them to get BETTER jobs. And it used to be that our children did these jobs to give them a work ethic, and introduce them to the way life in America is. You work to provide for the things you want. Our children WILL do these jobs!

Second, they get ALL of the welfare services provided to our LEGAL citizens as safety nets, without actually contributing ANYTHING. How would you feel if you went to the Emergency Room with seizures and had to wait behind an illegal with an ear ache? It happened to me! And the worst part is, I just know I had to pay for his visit as well, because we all know he couldn't pay (once again, taxpayers picking up the tab)

Third, how many of these illegals are criminals? WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THEY ARE! Many of them end up stealing someone's identity (boy wouldn't it be great if you were one of their victims), not to mention the Al-Qaeda training manuals we've found on the border. Pretty obvious THEY shouldn't be here!

Fourth, as a Conservative, I am MORE THAN WILLING to work for FREE if my salary went to building that ****ing fence and sending them home.

Fifth, we'd win the War on Drugs if the Cartels couldn't send their foot-soldiers here to sell their drugs to our kids. Not to mention the illegal alien slave-trade operated by the cartels in our neighborhoods, where dozens of illegals are held against their will in a "stash house" until they can be farmed off to the highest bidder/ransom. Yep, sure sounds compassionate to advocate for that!

Sixth, have you ever driven behind an illegal who thinks our speed limits are in km/h? Pretty frustrating out here in SoCal!

Seventh, can we be sure an illegal bears allegiance to this country? If we had to go to war with Mexico, could we be sure that an illegal would fight for this country, when they weren't even willing to follow it's most basic laws of citizenship in the first place? That's like expecting an illegal German to fight for America against Germany in WWII! I wouldn't count on it, although I'm sure there are many that would.

EasyEJL, once again, we are of one mind man! I say kill 'em all. That'll get the message across. And one more thing to leave you all with before I part ways.

If we give millions of illegals amnesty, they can then vote. Considering 69.5 million people voted for the Democrat in 2008, I believe it would be fair to say that the majority of these illegals would also vote for the people that fought to give them amnesty and all this free stuff (the Democrats). THAT is a large voter base, which really explains why all the liberals are in such a rush to legitimize these CRIMINALS!!! Keep in mind that if amnesty ever happens, they will then be legally able to sponsor their ENTIRE families back home to come here legally, thus increasing the voter base for the Democrats. Whites/Blacks/Asians/Indians/Smurfs/etc. would INSTANTLY, OVERNIGHT lose their representation due to being massively outnumbered by Mexicans. And the Republicans would sell us out as well just to get in on the action! Anywho, just some thoughts!
--Brian

 

[Fastone]

You really think our nation is "getting over skin color" because Obama is in office?!? First of all, America is NOT getting over race relations! I'm only 25, and I have seen racial relations VERY QUICKLY deteriorating throughout society, ESPECIALLY since Obama took office. Hell, I'm becoming very racist, and I'm okay with it. I don't wish ANYBODY harm, but I would much prefer if everybody who wasn't white just left me alone to be with my culture in OUR OWN neighborhoods (keeping in mind I've almost died twice at the hands of blacks, ending up in the hospital each time). I'm all for segregation, because as we all see now (whether we want to admit it or not) our cultures just don't mix. Now my scars serve as a reminder of what it's like to be abandoned by your black "friends" to die when you needed them the most. I still remember watching my "friends" walk away from me as I was being choked out with barbed wire by 5 black guys (after they beat the **** out of me and told my "friends" to leave). Remember when Obama said those cops (white) acted "stupidly"? Hmmm, I have yet to hear a peep from him over racial "flash mobs", the over 1,000,000 white hate-crime victims last year (only 100,000 blacks were victims of hate-crimes last year), no hate crime in Carter Strange's case, no hate crime in the Christopher Newsom tragedy, no hate crimes in the savage beatings in Milwaukee on the 4th of July by white fireworks-watchers by dozens of blacks, you've got Eric "my people" Holder that refuses to press Hate-Crime charges when they are CLEARLY deserved, or even investigate the Black Panthers for voter intimidation in Philadelphia and elsewhere, and now we're really debating giving ILLEGALS legality for the simple reason that they succeeded in breaking the law?!? This is just ****ing crazy!

First of all, by saying that illegals work for a wage we won't work for is advocating for a form of slavery. Once they're here, working for a pittance, how can they leave if they can't afford to? They are then trapped into doing that job in the same location, all because you were unwilling to send them home where they could succeed and come here legally, allowing them to get BETTER jobs. And it used to be that our children did these jobs to give them a work ethic, and introduce them to the way life in America is. You work to provide for the things you want. Our children WILL do these jobs!

Second, they get ALL of the welfare services provided to our LEGAL citizens as safety nets, without actually contributing ANYTHING. How would you feel if you went to the Emergency Room with seizures and had to wait behind an illegal with an ear ache? It happened to me! And the worst part is, I just know I had to pay for his visit as well, because we all know he couldn't pay (once again, taxpayers picking up the tab)

Third, how many of these illegals are criminals? WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THEY ARE! Many of them end up stealing someone's identity (boy wouldn't it be great if you were one of their victims), not to mention the Al-Qaeda training manuals we've found on the border. Pretty obvious THEY shouldn't be here!

Fourth, as a Conservative, I am MORE THAN WILLING to work for FREE if my salary went to building that ****ing fence and sending them home.

Fifth, we'd win the War on Drugs if the Cartels couldn't send their foot-soldiers here to sell their drugs to our kids. Not to mention the illegal alien slave-trade operated by the cartels in our neighborhoods, where dozens of illegals are held against their will in a "stash house" until they can be farmed off to the highest bidder/ransom. Yep, sure sounds compassionate to advocate for that!

Sixth, have you ever driven behind an illegal who thinks our speed limits are in km/h? Pretty frustrating out here in SoCal!

Seventh, can we be sure an illegal bears allegiance to this country? If we had to go to war with Mexico, could we be sure that an illegal would fight for this country, when they weren't even willing to follow it's most basic laws of citizenship in the first place? That's like expecting an illegal German to fight for America against Germany in WWII! I wouldn't count on it, although I'm sure there are many that would.

EasyEJL, once again, we are of one mind man! I say kill 'em all. That'll get the message across. And one more thing to leave you all with before I part ways.

If we give millions of illegals amnesty, they can then vote. Considering 69.5 million people voted for the Democrat in 2008, I believe it would be fair to say that the majority of these illegals would also vote for the people that fought to give them amnesty and all this free stuff (the Democrats). THAT is a large voter base, which really explains why all the liberals are in such a rush to legitimize these CRIMINALS!!! Keep in mind that if amnesty ever happens, they will then be legally able to sponsor their ENTIRE families back home to come here legally, thus increasing the voter base for the Democrats. Whites/Blacks/Asians/Indians/Smurfs/etc. would INSTANTLY, OVERNIGHT lose their representation due to being massively outnumbered by Mexicans. And the Republicans would sell us out as well just to get in on the action! Anywho, just some thoughts!
--Brian

I'm sorry for your problems and you probably didn't deserve the beating you got but the way you run your mouth you probably asked for it.

 

[diablosho]

So out of all that I wrote, the only thing you have to say is a personal attack on me! You know it's funny, every time I've told that story, it was always the blacks that came out with a response like that (almost as if they didn't care about a 15-year old White boy almost getting beaten to death in a Hate Crime...weird huh). Are you black? I really don't recall attacking you personally, and yet you continue to do so to me, simply for having debates with you. If you can find where I attacked YOU (not your ideas), I'll apologize if that's what you're going for here (I have been battling an Oxycontin addiction due to my disability, so my memory is usually pretty fuzzy, even the day after something happens). Otherwise, once again, you've proven the type of man you are. 'Til next time!
--Brian

 

[Fastone]

So out of all that I wrote, the only thing you have to say is a personal attack on me! You know it's funny, every time I've told that story, it was always the blacks that came out with a response like that (almost as if they didn't care about a 15-year old White boy almost getting beaten to death in a Hate Crime...weird huh). Are you black? I really don't recall attacking you personally, and yet you continue to do so to me, simply for having debates with you. If you can find where I attacked YOU (not your ideas), I'll apologize if that's what you're going for here (I have been battling an Oxycontin addiction due to my disability, so my memory is usually pretty fuzzy, even the day after something happens). Otherwise, once again, you've proven the type of man you are. 'Til next time!
--Brian

I'm not sure where I ever made a personal attack on you and I don't condone violence, however, it appears you wish to be felt sorry for because the "black heathens" attacked you and you were just minding your own business, right?. I have lost relatives to hate crimes where just because they were black, they were killed. I have also seen situations where if you look for trouble, it finds you. I don't know the particulars of your situation but, I can tell you if you were a friend of mine, I wouldn't have left.

I can understand why you feel the way you do as a result of what happened to you but for you to paint everyone with a broad brush as a result of it is BS. If you wish to stay segregated then do so, I on the other hand choose to live in the real world where people find a way to move past these things and find like minded people of all races and creeds that are willing to try to find solutions. Simple fact, we're not going anywhere.

 

[diablosho]

I'm not sure where I ever made a personal attack on you and I don't condone violence, however, it appears you wish to be felt sorry for because the "black heathens" attacked you and you were just minding your own business, right?. I have lost relatives to hate crimes where just because they were black, they were killed. I have also seen situations where if you look for trouble, it finds you. I don't know the particulars of your situation but, I can tell you if you were a friend of mine, I wouldn't have left.

I can understand why you feel the way you do as a result of what happened to you but for you to paint everyone with a broad brush as a result of it is BS. If you wish to stay segregated then do so, I on the other hand choose to live in the real world where people find a way to move past these things and find like minded people of all races and creeds that are willing to try to find solutions. Simple fact, we're not going anywhere.

Whatever the differences are between us (which I'm really not even sure why we always have to go this route), I need to make a few things clear that were a little misty in my last posts. I am not looking for sympathy, but rather, trying to shed some insight into the factors that formed my personal opinions today. Hell, these events happened 10 years ago when I was just a child. If I wanted sympathy, I would have gone into MUCH more detail about the things they did to me (which I will NEVER do). And I am truly sorry for your losses as well, for as I have said, I wish NOBODY any kind of harm. These senseless acts of violence are extremely disappointing and never fail to bring me to tears. So again, really, I am truly sorry for your loss.

As far as painting everyone with a broad brush being BS, let me explain. Racial profiling is simply an expression of our instincts based on statistical analysis (everyone does it). I've had some very bad experiences with black people, as such, I don't trust black people. Not to say I don't have black friends (because I do), but I always make sure to have an exit strategy in case things go bad, and keep up with my situational awareness. It's just the way things have become for me. That's why I've been bulking up, learning boxing, and Shorinji-Kempo Karate, in addition to my military experience. It's all instinctual. When I said that I want to be able to live in a white neighborhood, I was not referring to "kicking the black people out" (so-to speak). I was simply referring to the fact that it is illegal to segregate a neighborhood from its inception, but yet black people always seem to have their own neighborhoods (as do asians and mexicans). Why can't whites? If I wanted to start an all-white school or an all-white neighborhood, I legally could not. If you look here: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/are-feds-fanning-racial-flames-in-an-affluent-white-calif-county/, you will see what I'm talking about. To quote that article:
"Marin County, the affluent Bay Area community outside of San Francisco, is too white, says the Feds. According to data culled from the recent census, Marin County contains seven of the 10 whitest cities in the Bay Area. And to the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), that’s a problem."
Seems Whites are not allowed to live with their own people, raising their children in White culture in today's society. Being White is frowned upon. Hell, when you go to college as a White guy, YOU are the only one required to "diversify". There is all kinds of black-this, or asian-that, or lesbian-underwater-basket-weaving, etc. But NEVER is there anything about European culture for the other races to learn about MY culture. I am the ONLY race that is required to "diversify".

I never stated that I think any LEGAL American citizen should leave, or be forced to live in certain areas, etc. Only that EVERYBODY should be given the same opportunity to live in One-Race neighborhoods, and send their children to One-Race schools, if they so choose! Why is that frowned upon? Why should we be FORCED to mingle with other cultures if we don't want to?

Me and you need to get on better terms as far as interacting on this website goes. Whatever happened in the past, is now in the past as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of these retarded back-and-forths between the two of us, all because we had some sort of scuffle in the past.
--Brian

 

[Fastone]

Whatever the differences are between us (which I'm really not even sure why we always have to go this route), I need to make a few things clear that were a little misty in my last posts. I am not looking for sympathy, but rather, trying to shed some insight into the factors that formed my personal opinions today. Hell, these events happened 10 years ago when I was just a child. If I wanted sympathy, I would have gone into MUCH more detail about the things they did to me (which I will NEVER do). And I am truly sorry for your losses as well, for as I have said, I wish NOBODY any kind of harm. These senseless acts of violence are extremely disappointing and never fail to bring me to tears. So again, really, I am truly sorry for your loss.

As far as painting everyone with a broad brush being BS, let me explain. Racial profiling is simply an expression of our instincts based on statistical analysis (everyone does it). I've had some very bad experiences with black people, as such, I don't trust black people. Not to say I don't have black friends (because I do), but I always make sure to have an exit strategy in case things go bad, and keep up with my situational awareness. It's just the way things have become for me. That's why I've been bulking up, learning boxing, and Shorinji-Kempo Karate, in addition to my military experience. It's all instinctual. When I said that I want to be able to live in a white neighborhood, I was not referring to "kicking the black people out" (so-to speak). I was simply referring to the fact that it is illegal to segregate a neighborhood from its inception, but yet black people always seem to have their own neighborhoods (as do asians and mexicans). Why can't whites? If I wanted to start an all-white school or an all-white neighborhood, I legally could not. If you look here: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/are-feds-fanning-racial-flames-in-an-affluent-white-calif-county/, you will see what I'm talking about. To quote that article:
"Marin County, the affluent Bay Area community outside of San Francisco, is too white, says the Feds. According to data culled from the recent census, Marin County contains seven of the 10 whitest cities in the Bay Area. And to the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), that’s a problem."
Seems Whites are not allowed to live with their own people, raising their children in White culture in today's society. Being White is frowned upon. Hell, when you go to college as a White guy, YOU are the only one required to "diversify". There is all kinds of black-this, or asian-that, or lesbian-underwater-basket-weaving, etc. But NEVER is there anything about European culture for the other races to learn about MY culture. I am the ONLY race that is required to "diversify".

I never stated that I think any LEGAL American citizen should leave, or be forced to live in certain areas, etc. Only that EVERYBODY should be given the same opportunity to live in One-Race neighborhoods, and send their children to One-Race schools, if they so choose! Why is that frowned upon? Why should we be FORCED to mingle with other cultures if we don't want to?

Me and you need to get on better terms as far as interacting on this website goes. Whatever happened in the past, is now in the past as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of these retarded back-and-forths between the two of us, all because we had some sort of scuffle in the past.
--Brian

That's cool with me but one thing I would point out is the fact all black neighborhoods as well as others is a direct result of people not being able to live where they might have chosen. I've heard the statement when will there be a white history month which is a interesting question because the fact is there are 11 of them from March through January. Another fact is somehow average folks have to get past the Fox News|MSNBC dichotomy and realize that in a lot of ways were in the same boat and the true enemy is the fringes of our society and the folks who have everything who by creating and continuing the separation are duh! winning., just my .02

 

[seccsi]

I never stated that I think any LEGAL American citizen should leave, or be forced to live in certain areas, etc. Only that EVERYBODY should be given the same opportunity to live in One-Race neighborhoods, and send their children to One-Race schools, if they so choose! Why is that frowned upon? Why should we be FORCED to mingle with other cultures if we don't want to?

 

[diablosho]

Are you really referring to me as Hitler? I'm not even really sure how to reply to that, to be honest! Just a few differences between me and Hitler:
1. My thoughts and actions do not affect ANYBODY else (I am saying that I want to be able to MOVE to an all-white neighborhood, not "purify" my current neighborhood)
2. I don't want to hurt anybody (no explanation needed)
3. I believe everybody has an equal right to exist, but we also have a right to exist SEPARATELY if we so choose (I don't care much for other cultures, so why am I forced to accept them?)

Case in point. I don't believe in abortion, yet I am forced to fund it! Is that fair? Nope, but that's multi-culturalism at its finest. Multiculturalism has only served to diminish European culture and traditional family values in America, and I don't much care for it. Yet, I am shunned at the mere mention that I shouldn't be forced to be exposed to it. Why in America is it wrong to cling to your own culture? Oh wait, it's not...unless you're white. Let's see, here's some rap lyrics that should drive my point home:

"Now I'm black but black people trip 'cause white people
like me; white people like me I but don't like them. . . . I don't
hate whites, I just gotta death wish for mother****ers that ain't
right"; --"Race War"; Ice-T, Home Invasion, 1993, Priority Records,
Thorn EMI; now called The EMI Group, United Kingdom

"To all my Universal Soldier's: stay at attention while
I strategize an invasion; the mission be assassination, snipers
hitting Caucasians with semi-automatic shots heard around the world;
my plot is to control the globe and hold the world hostage. . . .
see, I got a war plan more deadlier than Hitler. . . . lyrical
specialist, underworld terrorist. . . . keep the unity thick like
mud. . . . I pulling out gats , launching deadly attacks"; --"Blood
for Blood"; Killarmy, Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars, 1997, Wu-Tang
Records, Priority Records, The EMI Group, United Kingdom


"Like my niggas from South Central Los Angeles they
found that they couldn't handle us; Bloods, CRIPS, on the same squad,
with the Essays up, and nigga, it's time to rob and mob and break the
white man off something lovely"; --"The Day the Niggaz Took Over"; Dr
Dre, The Chronic, 1993, Interscope Records, under Time Warner in
1993

Multiculturalism at its finest right! There are many, many more examples out there, but that's all I care to find right now. You all know the extent of what I'm talking about. And this news story sums it all up: http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/newsom.asp. Quick summary:

Christopher Newsom (23 years old) and his girlfriend Channon Christian (21 years old) were carjacked, and then tortured heinously. Christopher was sodomized repeatedly, they cut off his penis, set him on fire, and repeatedly shot him while his girlfriend was forced to watch. They then raped/sodomized her for 4 days, then cut off her breasts, poured bleach down her throat/vagina (all while alive), and suffocated her to death with a plastic bag (after putting her in the trash can to die, of course). Apparently, this story (along with MANY others) weren't sensational enough for ANY of the major news outlets to talk about, nor did any of the perpetrators receive hate-crime charges. Here's a quote as to how bad Channon sufferred:

"Channon's death came only after hours of sexual torture, medical examiner Mileusnic-Polchan testified. Channon suffered horrific injuries to her vagina, anus and mouth. She was not only raped but savaged with "an object," possibly a broken chair leg, the doctor testified. She was beaten in the head. Some type of chemical was poured down her throat, and her body, including her bleeding and battered genital area, likely scrubbed with the same solution - all while Channon was alive, the forensic expert said. She was then "hog-tied," with curtains and strips of bedding, her face covered tightly with a small trash bag and her body stashed inside five large trash bags before being placed inside a large trash can and covered with sheets. Channon died slowly, suffocating, the medical examiner said": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

How is that not a hate crime. Apparently, it wasn't sensational enough of a story for any of the national news agencies to cover the story. Could it be because they were White victims? In what world is a double rape/sodomy/torture/murder story not "news worthy"? We all know had it been White-on-Black, it would have been WORLD WIDE NEWS! It's "open-season" on White folks these days, and until minorities lend a voice to put an end to this ****, and start voicing some ****ing concern when WHITE people get violated like this (EVERY white on black crime is televised nationwide though, and decried by Whites), it becomes my duty to remove myself and my family from the situation all together (as much as possible). And if that makes me Hitler, than that makes you an idiot.
--Brian

 

[seccsi]

I don't literally think you're Hitler as apparently you live in California. I have no desire to argue your "points" because I'm so far away from you in that thinking. You clearly don't like people who are different from you and I don't know what it's like to go through life with that viewpoint. I imagine it's horrible. It's going to be a bitch if you have a daughter who falls for a black guy or a son who turns out gay.

And FWIW, your "examples" of rap lyrics and an awful crime lend no fire to your argument at all as it's just as easy to find whites saying terrible things and doing terrible things. Do I really need to list a bunch of white serial killers, OKC bombers, Columbine killers, etc. times a million? Nah because I don't view white people as inherently evil nor do I view blacks, hispanics, or anyone else as inherently evil. Being able to "point" at bad stuff people have done doesn't help at all unless you had proof that no white people ever did anything wrong.

Have fun at your clan meetings, go move to a state where you can live far away from other people in a rural area where all these races that are out to "get you" will leave you alone.

 

[Fastone]

Wow man you beat me to it. It would be very easy to go on Aryan sites and quote some of the things on there that are more hateful than anything you've posted here. The other thing is criminal torture has no color, it's inhuman in any shape, form or creed that it comes in.

As I said before Brian, the experiences you have had obviously have really negatively affected you which is understandable however, if you continue to live with those things, you may end up with the terrible surprise of one of your own doing you horribly wrong. There are plenty of places you can go to live where people think just like you but hate is all consuming, I hope you find what you're looking for or better yet find some peace in your life.

 

[iron fists]

has anyone noticed that the news doesnt give much attention to the "flash robs" and flash mobs" that are going on?? from all footage i have been able to find it seems that these are all crimes done by blacks...if they were white they would be all over the news...espcially if the videos showed shown a black man get pulled out of his car while driving to get beaten down by white kids...but since it isnt...they dont show it...its just crazy to me...i guess the media has to filter the nation and world from the massive ignorance rising...plus how can blacks be made out to always be the victims if they are in fact the complete opposite.

 

[diablosho]

Actually, the rap lyrics and the crime do lend fire to my argument, due to the fact that society doesn't even see them as important enough to discuss them. Rodney king (horrible incident) was broadcast worldwide, yet this tragedy (which happened in 2007) never made it out of the local news! Why do you think that is? THAT is the point I'm getting at. If you listed off a bunch of white serial killers (most of which do not kill minorities), the OKC bomber (attacked the Government), Columbine killers (attacked bullies), etc., they were not TARGETING blacks/mexicans/whatever. MY examples are clearly illustrating minorities TARGETING Whites!!! That's my point! It has become POPULAR in society to HATE White people aggressively! I don't hate everybody! When I go out in public, I have every intention of mingling with other cultures. But for an example: if I want Mexican food, I go to a Mexican restaurant. I do NOT, however, have a Mexican come to my house, and FORCE me to eat WHATEVER it is they decide to make. THAT is the brand of multiculturalism that is going around in America today, and I don't like it. THAT is my point. I'm not in the Clan, nor do I much care for the clan/NS due to the fact that they (many of them anyways) are VIOLENT and SOCIALIST. TWO things that I am NOT. I LOVE our country, and I wish EVERYBODY the best that life has to offer. My point throughout this entire debacle has been to illustrate that society cares more about taking from me and FORCING me to give up my ideals in order to accomodate OTHER cultures, effectively making Whites look like bitches, and today's media enforces that viewpoint.

To further illustrate this point, did you hear about Carter Strange in Columbia, SC. What about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfXZBhEBeV4 (White boy beat to hell by Blacks over slavery)? Probably not. But you probably heard about those 3 White boys that drove over that black guy in the South recently, didn't ya! I ABSOLUTELY HATE those White boys for doing that. They will forever burn in Hell. But what pisses me off is the fact that when it happens to White people, the Justice system and the Media completely FAIL to deliver. Our society only believes that White people are able to be racists. It is UNSAFE to be out in public as a White boy. Walk around your local community college and tell me you see White people actually having fun...doesn't happen often. What you will find is tons of rap music, gang signs, weed smoke, and "hey cracka, you stepped on my shoes" comments. ONCE that is fixed, I'll be more than happy to mingle. Until then, job #1 is to protect myself and my family.

 

[Fastone]

has anyone noticed that the news doesnt give much attention to the "flash robs" and flash mobs" that are going on?? from all footage i have been able to find it seems that these are all crimes done by blacks...if they were white they would be all over the news...espcially if the videos showed shown a black man get pulled out of his car while driving to get beaten down by white kids...but since it isnt...they dont show it...its just crazy to me...i guess the media has to filter the nation and world from the massive ignorance rising...plus how can blacks be made out to always be the victims if they are in fact the complete opposite.

Maybe you watch the wrong news stations because where I live (which is within 50 miles of where this happened) it was covered fairly extensively and action was quickly taken to put a end to that situation.

 

[seccsi]

Actually, the rap lyrics and the crime do lend fire to my argument, due to the fact that society doesn't even see them as important enough to discuss them. Rodney king (horrible incident) was broadcast worldwide, yet this tragedy (which happened in 2007) never made it out of the local news! Why do you think that is? THAT is the point I'm getting at. If you listed off a bunch of white serial killers (most of which do not kill minorities), the OKC bomber (attacked the Government), Columbine killers (attacked bullies), etc., they were not TARGETING blacks/mexicans/whatever. MY examples are clearly illustrating minorities TARGETING Whites!!! That's my point! It has become POPULAR in society to HATE White people aggressively! I don't hate everybody! When I go out in public, I have every intention of mingling with other cultures. But for an example: if I want Mexican food, I go to a Mexican restaurant. I do NOT, however, have a Mexican come to my house, and FORCE me to eat WHATEVER it is they decide to make. THAT is the brand of multiculturalism that is going around in America today, and I don't like it. THAT is my point. I'm not in the Clan, nor do I much care for the clan/NS due to the fact that they (many of them anyways) are VIOLENT and SOCIALIST. TWO things that I am NOT. I LOVE our country, and I wish EVERYBODY the best that life has to offer. My point throughout this entire debacle has been to illustrate that society cares more about taking from me and FORCING me to give up my ideals in order to accomodate OTHER cultures, effectively making Whites look like bitches, and today's media enforces that viewpoint.

To further illustrate this point, did you hear about Carter Strange in Columbia, SC. What about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfXZBhEBeV4 (White boy beat to hell by Blacks over slavery)? Probably not. But you probably heard about those 3 White boys that drove over that black guy in the South recently, didn't ya! I ABSOLUTELY HATE those White boys for doing that. They will forever burn in Hell. But what pisses me off is the fact that when it happens to White people, the Justice system and the Media completely FAIL to deliver. Our society only believes that White people are able to be racists. It is UNSAFE to be out in public as a White boy. Walk around your local community college and tell me you see White people actually having fun...doesn't happen often. What you will find is tons of rap music, gang signs, weed smoke, and "hey cracka, you stepped on my shoes" comments. ONCE that is fixed, I'll be more than happy to mingle. Until then, job #1 is to protect myself and my family.

You don't hate everybody just those that aren't white. We get it. As for the targeting whites what are you even talking about? Blacks kill FAR MORE blacks than they do whites. Crime is bad no matter who does it. Murder is bad whether it's a white killing a black, a black killing a white, same race, anything. It should ALL piss you off. Why do you single out black people? Unsafe to be a white boy? What the **** are you talking about?

Where exactly is it unsafe to be a white boy? It isn't for me. Is it dangerous for people in certain neighborhoods? Of course. Most of the places where it isn't safe to be white it isn't safe to be black, Hispanic, or Asian either! Whites not having fun? You literally sound insane when you say stuff like this. You don't see any whites having fun? What kind of a statement is that even? They are all hiding in basement cellars afraid that the big bad black man is going to get them? What world are you seeing? I was with my girlfriend today and saw a white kid skateboarding with a black kid. Insanity I know. "Pa, they are interacting together...we're too late!!!!"

WHITES ARE SMOKING WEED, WHITES ARE LISTENING TO RAP MUSIC! Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why do you want to make everything about race?

You seriously sound like you miss whites drinking from different water fountains than blacks and being in separate schools. You're entitled to your opinion, but we aren't going back that way. No matter how many news stories and links you find that try and show how bad it is to be white today.

Must have been similar to late 1800's white people. "Oh god, we don't have someone to do our work for us, it's AWFUL TO BE WHITE RIGHT NOW!!!!"

I'm white, having fun, loving life. I'm sorry that people who are different from you are making it so difficult for you to be happy.

 

[diablosho]

Are you being intentionally dense? I didn't say that I hate everybody that isn't White. I just said that I don't like their CULTURE.

You really have a difficult time understanding what I'm saying huh. Alright. The fact that blacks kill more blacks than whites IS horrible, but on a personal, physical level it doesn't affect me as much as blacks TARGETING WHITES (which is, in effect, increasing MY odds of becoming a victim). Of course all crime is bad! I'm singling out black people? Not really. I'm simply citing factual evidence that points to a societal bias against Whites. And again, if you go on a community college campus, it truly is not safe to be hanging around outside class (at least where I go to school, I suppose). When Whites gather together, they are quickly put in a "fight or get the hell out of here" kind of situation by blacks, who come over and start ****. TRUE FACT. And true, Whites are smoking weed and listening to rap music. Hell, I used to. Which is truly sad given the fact that the rap music they listen to is usually very similar to the rap music lyrics I cited. How's that for embarassing! And I already stated I would prefer going to separate schools, so I'll agree with you on that one! At least then, White people won't be bothered with incessant beating on desks and "flowing" by blacks in the back of the classroom who have absolutely ZERO intention of learning a damn thing, nor the constant exposure to "gang banging" mentality and having their race put down. Children are smart, and when they realize that society does not accept them the way they are, they will change to become accepted. WE ALL KNOW THIS! Hence why Whites are listening to Rap and smoking weed. They grew up being forced to believe that was the societal norm. Again, multiculturalism failure.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But as long as we debate the issues and not make things (too) personal, I'm fine with whatever is said. But so far, you have yet to present any sort of evidence to negate what I've said besides "you're crazy". I'm going to take that to mean that you can't, until you show otherwise.

Here's some MORE statistics to leave you with:

As of 1999, the FBI released the following statistics (I know it's old, but we can damn well assume things haven't gotten much, if any, better):
-Of the 1.9 million interracial violent crimes, 90% were committed by blacks on whites than vice-versa
-"Blacks are 100 to 250 times more likely to be involved in gang attacks on whites than the reverse"
-Fewer than 20% of these attacks on Whites were robberies...the other 80% were Rapes and Assaults (meaning 1.36 million Rapes and Assaults)
-Hispanics commit violent crimes at approximately three times the White rate
-Asians commit violent crimes at approximately 1/2 to 3/4 the White rate
-Hispanics are included in the White category for Hate Crimes, inflating the number of "White-perpetrated Hate Crimes"
http://iontheworld.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/the-color-of-crime-race-crime-and-justice-in-america/

Just for some reading, you should check it out. Feel free to provide any factual, statistical evidence at your leisure!