Msten plans, rough draft...input welcome!

[jason267]

Planning an Msten cycle around Fall time
Going over my check list to make sure i have everything in order, please speak your minds about anything i am missing or may need! Thanks!!!

-1 bottle IML 'Msten Rx'
(i have 5 10mg caps leftover from a previous run from Celtic Labs that i might start off with...)
maybe adding 5 days to the run, starting at 10mg per day, then going straight into 20mgs per day for 4 weeks.
-CEL CYCLE ASSIST
-Tudca
-Fish Oil/Multi
-Aethis Tendon Support

PCT
-Clomid (50/50/25/25)
-DAA (3g per day)
-Erase (only have enough to run it at 2 caps a day for a week, then continue at 1 cap per day until finish)

*Question, i posted a thread about possibly using a SERM while ON cycle, and found mixed reviews. But it seems clear that it will def help estrogen from binding to the areas that we all dread! Which is what its known for during PCT of course. But i have a extra bottle of Torem, which ive heard is not as good as preventing gyno, but pretty damn close (i have never messed with Torem in previous cycles). So, im thinking, why tha hell not? And im going to run it at a medium dosage throughout my cycle. Most likely just at 30mgs. Now, this may prove as a good idea, or might just be a good 'peace of mind' for me...we shall see! But i have never had any high estrogen problems in the past, never a need to run a RC AI, and thinking this might help keep what I, and all of us, fear most at bay. I don't want to crush estro, but as always with any run, i fear gyno...because you just never know.

 

[jason267]

**Also have 2 bottles of 4-Andro i could stack with Msten, but am hesitant as it might make estro sides worse..

 

[Jebrook]

I would stack the 4 andro. It will help a lot with lethargy. Msten gave me bad lethargy @ 20 mg/day for 4 weeks. I found Msten to be very dry and had no estrogenic sides. I think a SERM on cycle would be overkill and potentially tank estro levels too much. I would suggest an Otc AI starting two weeks in and running two weeks into PCT. a bottle of El1minate would be cheap effective. Dose @ 50 mg. some people would run both the torem and Clomid during pct.

 

[jason267]

I would stack the 4 andro. It will help a lot with lethargy. Msten gave me bad lethargy @ 20 mg/day for 4 weeks. I found Msten to be very dry and had no estrogenic sides. I think a SERM on cycle would be overkill and potentially tank estro levels too much. I would suggest an Otc AI starting two weeks in and running two weeks into PCT. a bottle of El1minate would be cheap effective. Dose @ 50 mg. some people would run both the torem and Clomid during pct.

Thanks man....thing is, SERM's dont lower estrogen levels...they just keep estro from binding to unwanted areas!
I have thought about running the Erase that i have DURING the cycle instead of during PCT...we will see. In the past, i just run some Clomid and DAA and its all good...

 

[jason267]

SERM= selective estrogen receptor modulator

***blocking some estrogen actions while at the same time permitting others. This means their action is different in various tissues, hence the "selective' descriptor. They selectively inhibit some while stimulating other estrogen-like actions. Compare this to aromatase inhibitors (AI), which block the conversion of androgens into estrogen. In other words, AIs prevent estrogen from being produced while SERMs prevent certain receptors from receiving and responding to estrogen.

 

[Volvo140G]

Consider this....

There's my input.

 

[Volvo140G]

Also, ditch the erase.

Get yourself some exemestane - like a real man.

 

[Joedoubledose]

Your cycle looks good , don't run the serm on cycle , I understand you want to be safe then sorry , if your that concerned get the exemestane or a good AI from an RC site . You'll be okay haha .

 

[Joedoubledose]

And also stack the 4 andro

 

[Joedoubledose]

And I'd be more concerned about my liver then Gyno so I'd get two bottles of cycle assist and preload them two weeks before cycle and run them all the way through pct aside from that it's gucci

 

[Volvo140G]

I'll never cycle w/o exem on hand, nor should anyone. If you're nips start lighting up that wait for your legit AI will be an eternity.

 

[jason267]

And I'd be more concerned about my liver then Gyno so I'd get two bottles of cycle assist and preload them two weeks before cycle and run them all the way through pct aside from that it's gucci

theres no need to waste Cycle Assist, the only thing you need to pre load (if at all) is the Hawthorn Berry, as it supposedly will make blood pressure spike at first and then start helping keeping it under control....though im pretty sure its bull****! Never have pre loaded anything, and 6 cycles later, blood work shows always recover perfectly!

 

[jason267]

Your cycle looks good , don't run the serm on cycle , I understand you want to be safe then sorry , if your that concerned get the exemestane or a good AI from an RC site . You'll be okay haha .

Why not run the Torem on cycle? What harm would it do?

*Found a post from a freind from a couple years ago:

toremifene-I will never run another cycle without it

For years I have always gotten sensitive puffy nipples on decent doses of AAS or any amount of tren. I use letro and prami to keep this at bay but it never seems to keep my nips looking like they do off cycle.

I started tren about a week ago and sure enough my nipples started acting up. I increased my dose of letro and prami but it did not help.

I started toremifene on Friday. I did 100mgs Friday and Saturday, and 50 on Sunday. No more sensitive puffy nips. This is even more amazing because I went out drinking Saturday night which while on tren is a recipe for nipple disaster for me! I am going to settle in a 25mgs per day and stay on it until my next cruise. I can also now cut my dose of letro from .75 per day to .25 per day.

Considering it can virtually guarantee that you won't get gyno,does not inhibit IGF,actually helps lipid profile, and shows much higher recovery for PCT I don't know why anyone would not use it or at least have it on hand!

Seriously the best thing I have tried in a long time!

 

[Joedoubledose]

I've read that post and if your using cycle assist by cel you see it has milk thistle which also needs time to build up to help with liver protection

 

[jason267]

I'll be another lab rat, and try it.
If you google around...it sounds promising.

I should add, never have had any trouble with gyno or any estro related sides, besides some puffy nips that i get every cycle (even got em during my first run years ago from a simple Hdrol run at 50mgs for a month!), but bloodwork always shows estro and test are recovered by the end.
So no need for a RC AI, i do plan on running Erase, since i will be stacking with 4-Andro most likely.
I also have 2 bottles of Stano200, could run it at 1200mg per day during the cycle...really dont want lethargy...i dont remember how it was from my previous Msten cycle. But would both Stano and 4 Andro be overkill? (just adding em for lethargy)

 

[jason267]

I've read that post and if your using cycle assist by cel you see it has milk thistle which also needs time to build up to help with liver protection

Not true..for the simple reason that Milk Thistle...is crap!!!

 

[Jebrook]

Sounds like he wants to do it regardless. I don't see how it would be harmful just kinda pointless. If your bound and determined by all means go ahead. Get bloods before, during, and after if you want to lend any credibility to this method. You would be the guinea pig. I would follow to see what happens.

 

[Joedoubledose]

Hey I'm saying it for the reason it's in the cycle assist you chose which contain two ingredients that if you preload will be more effective, if it's crap then why not just run plain Hawthorne berry , NAC, and TUDCA? Lol

 

[jason267]

Because of all the other good ingredients in Cycle assist!

Im planning on running a bottle of TUDCA as well...

Do some real research, and you will see, that Milk Thistle, is not what its cracked up to be.
But by all means, pre load for 2 weeks if you think it will help.

 

[jason267]

Pantothenic Acid Vitamin B-6 Saw Palmetto Extract Celery Seed Extract Grape Seed Extract, etc, etc.

Gotta watch yo prostate!

 

[irishpride33]

Consider this....

View attachment 118287

There's my input.

Damn i like that input best advise ive read all mourning

 

[Volvo140G]

Damn i like that input best advise ive read all mourning

Haha isn't that thing ridiculous?
Hhhnnnggggggg!

 

[mixedup]

Not true..for the simple reason that Milk Thistle...is crap!!!

What?????

 

[jason267]

What?????

There is no fully sound scientific evidence that Milk Thistle will play a part in the liver.
You can of course find "studies" that claim that it does do what we all HOPE it does, but there are far to many others that prove otherwise.

A good rule of thumb, is you cant fight strong chemicals with twigs and berry's

 

[mixedup]

There is no fully sound scientific evidence that Milk Thistle will play a part in the liver.
You can of course find "studies" that claim that it does do what we all HOPE it does, but there are far to many others that prove otherwise.

A good rule of thumb, is you cant fight strong chemicals with twigs and berry's

I just go by experience you know how long I've been doing this and I'm on year round now a days I get full bloods done quarterly at least and either I have a super human liver milk thistle works or toxicity is way over rated I did bloods a week after an 8 week oral cycle that included msten at 40mg for 5 weeks and dymethazine at 60mg for 30 days and not only were there no flags my values were on the low end of the spectrum. All I used was 1350mg of milk thistle a day. Same protocol I've used for more than decade. It's probably the same way that alot of studies say arimistane is week or more of a Cort blocker but for you it works

 

[jason267]

I just go by experience you know how long I've been doing this and I'm on year round now a days I get full bloods done quarterly at least and either I have a super human liver milk thistle works or toxicity is way over rated I did bloods a week after an 8 week oral cycle that included msten at 40mg for 5 weeks and dymethazine at 60mg for 30 days and not only were there no flags my values were on the low end of the spectrum. All I used was 1350mg of milk thistle a day. Same protocol I've used for more than decade. It's probably the same way that alot of studies say arimistane is week or more of a Cort blocker but for you it works

Not calling you old, dont take offense to that....but milk thistle is the go-to for the OG bodybuilders.
NAC and TUDCA are what is proven to work....google around a bit about the university studies on NAC and TUDCA...it make Milk Thistle seem like weak sauce!
Also, i would have to agree that the whole "liver toxicity/failure" is GREATLY overrated....think about what people used to run with out any support supps at all, and here they are, in their 60's and doing pretty damn fine!
Same with when the Andro's and Halodrol hit the market, no one bothered to take any sort of support supps...many of my older buddies didnt, and they all have little kids runnin around their house, and are in perfect health.
Supports are just a "piece of mind" type of thing, is my belief.
But dont get me wrong, i still take 1g NAC and TUDCA with all my new cycles...a peice of mind, and also, better to be safe than sorry.

If milk thistle works for you, and you have done deep research into it, than by all means, boast it as much as you like!

 

[mixedup]

No worries I am old an an og juicer we all gotta use what works for us personally everyone is different. Same way I think it's fine you want to use 60mg torem on cycle. Some may say it's overkill or a waste but hey till you try it who knows. You may feel great it may just be piece of mind but it's your body and even if it did nothing but made you feel better mentally I would say it was worth it

 

[jason267]

No worries I am old an an og juicer we all gotta use what works for us personally everyone is different. Same way I think it's fine you want to use 60mg torem on cycle. Some may say it's overkill or a waste but hey till you try it who knows. You may feel great it may just be piece of mind but it's your body and even if it did nothing but made you feel better mentally I would say it was worth it

What are your true thoughts about adding in Torem during the cycle? My only reasoning is that it will do what a SERM does and help keep estro from binding to receptors such as the chest/nips...to me, that sounds like it could be VERY beneficial!
Also, i have been going thru the net, and found that many others have had great success with running Torem (especially Torem) while on cycle, even cycles stronger than what i plan, and swear it has decreased nipple sensitivity...which makes sense. Since the main reason whey we take a serm during PCT is to prevent gyno, and jump start the HPTA....
"For years I have always gotten sensitive puffy nipples on decent doses of AAS or any amount of tren. I use letro and prami to keep this at bay but it never seems to keep my nips looking like they do off cycle.

I started tren about a week ago and sure enough my nipples started acting up. I increased my dose of letro and prami but it did not help.

I started toremifene on Friday. I did 100mgs Friday and Saturday, and 50 on Sunday. No more sensitive puffy nips. This is even more amazing because I went out drinking Saturday night which while on tren is a recipe for nipple disaster for me! I am going to settle in a 25mgs per day and stay on it until my next cruise. I can also now cut my dose of letro from .75 per day to .25 per day.

Considering it can virtually guarantee that you won't get gyno,does not inhibit IGF,actually helps lipid profile, and shows much higher recovery for PCT I don't know why anyone would not use it or at least have it on hand!

Seriously the best thing I have tried in a long time!"

 

[mixedup]

My true thoughts are it could be beneficial I ran it once during cycle with letro during a gyno flare up. I was pleased with results. Does it need to be run throughout cycle personally I wouldn't unless I just have an abundance lying around. I like goal specific compounds and running the fewer the better to achieve that goal. But I also believe in switching compounds or extending. Every cycle is different and deca may be working better for me at this particular moment in time and I want to up the dose or extend it. If I am running multiple compounds it's a little harder to tell. if I were to do it I would run torem at a lower dose full cycle no other ai or serm to gauge easier I see a serm ir ai as no different than say dbol or msten. Will 200mg of dbol put on more muscle and weight faster sure but if 50 is what I need to reach my goal than go with 50. If 30mg helps you achieve what your looking for than no need for 60 low slow minimum amounts to get desired results you can always go up

 

[jason267]

Greatly agree!
Still wondering if very low dosed atd would be needed or just a waste and crushing my estro completely. (but since both Torem and atd do completely different things...i dont think it would crush my estro...correct?)
I def plan on running Torem for the cycle, not sure about adding in atd (1 cap), and not sure if i should dose it at night or not (for both Torem and atd)???

Also, for PCT, i have some quality Clomid. But in a past heavier cycle, i ran both Nolva and Clomid together. I think i did
Clomid *50/50/25/25
Nolva *20/10

^Have no solid evidence if the two together made the difference, but my PCT was a breeze compared to the ones in the past! My gains stayed easily and even my lifts felt the same as when i was on cycle...
SO, not sure if i should run that same sort of "double dose" PCT, again?
thoughts???

 

[Volvo140G]

Like you, when I chose to pct using two serms it was a breeze and I won't go back. I ran clomid like usual and threw in nolva at 20/10/10/5

 

[jason267]

Thanks, ill keep that in mind.

Trouble is, i have only 1/4 bottle of Nolva leftover.

I have plenty of Clomid though....what do you think about running Clomid at the norm and also adding in Torem as well?
Clomid 50/50/25/25
Torem 90/60/30
....Torem can help prevent gyno around the same percentage as Nolva (supposedly) from all the things ive read. Torem 85%, Nolva 90%.

 

[Joedoubledose]

n

 

[jason267]

F*CK YO MILK TISSSSLLLLE!