Mind Steriods or Noots

[RipdnTxs]

I went and saw my Doc. and he really spent some time with me going over my less than optimal brain function. He said I have a
low Dopamine output. Instead of taking a more natural approach at this time, he took me off Prozac and put me on Wellbutrin which is more suited for my situation. He wants to try this for a while and get me moving and doing the things I used to enjoy. I have become skeptical about SSRIs, but am going to give this a try. I have read some pretty bad reactions from mixing this one with alcohol, I drink very rarely. This next week my family and I are going to our lakehouse for 6 days and I like to have some beers while sitting on the dock and chilln. If anyone has taken this med. and drank I would like to here your experiences. If I decide to say to hell with SSRIs, what would be some supps. to help with Dopamine output ?????

 

[tuberman]

I went and saw my Doc. and he really spent some time with me going over my less than optimal brain function. He said I have a
low Dopamine output. Instead of taking a more natural approach at this time, he took me off Prozac and put me on Wellbutrin which is more suited for my situation. He wants to try this for a while and get me moving and doing the things I used to enjoy. I have become skeptical about SSRIs, but am going to give this a try. I have read some pretty bad reactions from mixing this one with alcohol, I drink very rarely. This next week my family and I are going to our lakehouse for 6 days and I like to have some beers while sitting on the dock and chilln. If anyone has taken this med. and drank I would like to here your experiences. If I decide to say to hell with SSRIs, what would be some supps. to help with Dopamine output ?????

Ripped,

N-Acetyl-Tyrosine is a precursor to dopamine and could help.

 

[xsiv1]

I went and saw my Doc. and he really spent some time with me going over my less than optimal brain function. He said I have a
low Dopamine output. Instead of taking a more natural approach at this time, he took me off Prozac and put me on Wellbutrin which is more suited for my situation. He wants to try this for a while and get me moving and doing the things I used to enjoy. I have become skeptical about SSRIs, but am going to give this a try. I have read some pretty bad reactions from mixing this one with alcohol, I drink very rarely. This next week my family and I are going to our lakehouse for 6 days and I like to have some beers while sitting on the dock and chilln. If anyone has taken this med. and drank I would like to here your experiences. If I decide to say to hell with SSRIs, what would be some supps. to help with Dopamine output ?????

Yes, in fact, Acetyl L-Tyrosine/DLPA/L-Phenylalanine may all work for you. If you give Wellbutrin a try, you could probably still drink. I know I have with Paxil with no adverse effects. I'd take it slow. Have a couple and assess how you're feeling. You're not going to fly off the rails with a few beers.

 

[tuberman]

I finished Panksepp's book "The Archeology of the Mind." It does answer some questions, but opens many more. The study of the brain from an affective (feelings) viewpoint is relatively new.

In chap.6 he says, " LTP.....formation has been revealed....in vitro....with slabs of hippocampal tissue. ....Still....there remains a chasm of ignorance between ....LTP and the nature of real life memories."

Basically he is saying there is always strong involvement in the deeper earlier developed brain parts in the limbic system and even the midbrain for how quickly we learn, and how easy it is for us to retain memories and learning. If you want to learn fast and retain stuff with an iron grip, then fear for your life or fall in love with your interests.

He is saying much more though, and he does get into the problem with stims, especially for children with a diagnosis of ADHD. Stims make us more able to focus on daily (read boring) subjects, yet they reduce playfulness and seeking mode behavior that reveals totally new info. The seeking mode type behavior is what brings novel things actively into our lives and we tend to get stale and flat if this mode is stressed or turned down.

 

[kisaj]

Basically he is saying there is always strong involvement in the deeper earlier developed brain parts in the limbic system and even the midbrain for how quickly we learn, and how easy it is for us to retain memories and learning. If you want to learn fast and retain stuff with an iron grip, then fear for your life or fall in love with your interests.

He is saying much more though, and he does get into the problem with stims, especially for children with a diagnosis of ADHD. Stims make us more able to focus on daily (read boring) subjects, yet they reduce playfulness and seeking mode behavior that reveals totally new info. The seeking mode type behavior is what brings novel things actively into our lives and we tend to get stale and flat if this mode is stressed or turned down.

Not to be snide, but this is pretty well known, IMO. Talk to a lot of parents that have kids on these drugs and they'll tell you that their kids may do better in studying, but they are zombies. I'd say this is true for older people as well, but the variable of life is always in play with it's everyday stresses, so it would be harder to say if that isn't involved.

As far as retaining things, I think it goes without say that you are going to remember things you love or that almost killed you, more than things you don't care about.

 

[EasyEJL]

As far as retaining things, I think it goes without say that you are going to remember things you love or that almost killed you, more than things you don't care about.

as well as anything with strong sensory impact even if it doesn't include you having strong feelings about it. Smells in particular are strongly linked to memory.

 

[kisaj]

Absolutely. I can get immediately nostalgic by going out to grab the paper in the morning and smelling the morning air. It will even take me back to being an elementary kid and walking to the bus.

For me, smell is the strongest link to memories.

 

[machorox123]

I've been taking 600mg of pramiracetam the past week havnt noticed any worth mentioning.. I spend probably about 10-12 hours a week for school and dont feel i have retained any more info than usual. Going to start taking 900 soon

 

[kisaj]

That is a ridiculous amount of prami to need to take. You likely aren't a responder and that is going to get very expensive.

Typically you will see the people on Longecity taking 1g+ doses to experiment with, but it isn't anything long term. Except for some of the nut jobs over there.

 

[tuberman]

Not to be snide, but this is pretty well known, IMO. Talk to a lot of parents that have kids on these drugs and they'll tell you that their kids may do better in studying, but they are zombies. I'd say this is true for older people as well, but the variable of life is always in play with it's everyday stresses, so it would be harder to say if that isn't involved.

As far as retaining things, I think it goes without say that you are going to remember things you love or that almost killed you, more than things you don't care about.

kisaj,

I totally agree with you that all this is "common knowledge." Yet what Panksepp is saying, is that most brain scientists even today do not include this common knowledge in there experimental concepts. They are still working with behaviorist models of "reward/punishment" when it comes to experimentation with learning, and that does not allow looking into things in these ways.

Is Pankseep correct about stims? He certainly is with kids on psychostimulants , but with adults it is more iffy. I can think of a couple of comedians on coke who were very playful.

The problem comes with creating new science that finds better ways of finding new info on deeper neuropaths and networks that actually include them in science in a way of being definite about their influence. Show how these networks interact with the neocortex in the learning process in humans. Most brain science is currently stating that affective or feeling input has very little ability to alter learning or that most emotional content is modulated in the neocortex anyway. There is a theory called the James-Lange concept, and it states that emotions are "fed back" to the neocortex, or the thinking part of the brain, and only then are emotions "experienced." So humans or animals don't have feelings until they "think about" them (and since animals can't think, they don't have real feelings or emotions). There are several versions today of this fed back cognition of emotions. Panksepp just says this is only somewhat true and mostly false, and if brain scientists want to make further progress on understanding things like LTP, and other learning concepts, they need to change their paradigm.

There are obviously completely other approaches such as "binding with oscillations" which are again new territory in brain research. I have a couple of books ordered that will deal with strengths and weaknesses of various scanning devices, such as fMRI, EEG, MEG, PET scans and more. BTW, the "binding with oscillations" scientists are also looking into the influences of deeper areas of the brain that create wakefulness and strongly influence the executive neocortex areas. The midbrain seems to be the central interest to them and particularly the motor areas, which are very close to the PAG area that Panksepp states is the center of the emotional area.

Unfortunately, these are both unexplored territories for the most part.

 

[tuberman]

as well as anything with strong sensory impact even if it doesn't include you having strong feelings about it. Smells in particular are strongly linked to memory.

Smell is one step closer to primitive affective emotions. "The olfactory bulb has intimate access to the amygdala, which processes emotion, and the hippocampus, which is responsible for associative learning." This from "How Stuff Works," by Sarah Dowdy. Most of our senses go from the sense organ to the thalamus, which then distributes the sensory info in several directions. Most brain scientist today would acknowledge the amygdala's role in affective learning and processing, but the truth is there are two deeper layers of the brain that are even more important to affective or emotional processing, with the PAG area being the center according to Panksepp. The amygdala is a switching station between the emotional cognition and the neocortex, but feelings still exist even with a severely damaged amygdala.

Still it's interesting that smell bypasses the thalamus distributing area and goes directly to the amygdala. Also, interesting is that many, many tribal peoples looked down on a member with a great sense of smell, and that in some tribes you could actually be accused of witchcraft if your abilities were too much like animals.

BTW, Sarah is wrong about the hippocampus being responsible for associative learning, but it is responsible for the ability to hold onto associative learning long-term, but those are two separate things.

 

[tuberman]

Going back to "On Intelligence" by Jeff Hawkins. I still think his book is quite brilliant. He started thinking early in his career on how fluid the movement of living beings are typically, and how awkward the movements of the best A.I. developed robots are when they have to move around in environments. I believe this was a great insight by him. He is not interested in creating a computer good at playing chess or TV word games, his A.I. is interested in creating an appliance that moves predicatively, and fluidly through complex environments. This is a vast step forward in A.I.

 

[tuberman]

Where is this all going for me. In another 6 months or so, I'd like to be able to follow any neuroscience paper with insight into not only what they are doing, but the prejudices they may hold, and the strengths and or limitations of their experiment design. Before then I want to look at several diverse viewpoints of where the science is going and structure my own questions and speculations loosely, so that I can reform them as I get more knowledge.

I currently have two books on the evolution of the brain from a motor centered and rhythm (oscillations) centered view of the brain. The first of these seems like it makes many great insight connections, and the second looks a bit too staid, boring and stiffly scientific, yet has some valuable insight into brain scan strengths and weaknesses. I will get Eric Kandels 1760 page book that is an upper level course on brain science. He is one fantastic teacher, and makes the difficult, easy every time. And I probably won't talk much about any of these things on here.

Yet I just ordered a bunch of quercetin, and will probably get some PEA, and may experiment with a LTP stack with PEA or even some oxytocin spray in the future (I don't expect much from the oxytocin, but the PEA should work at the right levels.). I may do the experiment with the PEA and the forskolin, quercetin, tyrocine combo while going through Kandel's text book. it will be another 5-6 weeks before I get back to test this LTP stack.

 

[tuberman]

Absolutely. I can get immediately nostalgic by going out to grab the paper in the morning and smelling the morning air. It will even take me back to being an elementary kid and walking to the bus.

For me, smell is the strongest link to memories.

kiasi,

One last thing for now. You and Easy made a point for Panksepp, as the sense of smell is directly connected to the amygdala, it is always, always associated with affective memories or memories of feelings. They may seem too subtle to be called emotions in the typical sense, but they are feelings. Smells give you a feel for the past.

Brain scientists almost never study the sense of smell as it has too much affective associations for their "reward/punishment" system thinking.They prefer giving shocks to the animals that are so sharp they probably feel like predators bites or giving or withholding food, and the little white rats learn quick.

 

[kisaj]

Must be my feminine side, because I love all that feelings stuff when it comes to memory. Lol.

 

[tuberman]

Must be my feminine side, because I love all that feelings stuff when it comes to memory. Lol.

Naw, You're just a PUA pretending to have a fem side so you can get some. I'm not telling.

------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, let's talk about affective learning in a real world setting. You've got this kid who is 17 and he's thinking about girls all the time, and gets hard at all sorts of inappropriate times. His LUST system is in overdrive. That's Panksepp's term "the LUST system." Pete would like to kick in his SEEKING system, but he don't know where to start. He is 3-4 months off from graduating high school, and he's not a total failure, but considers his high school girl-getting career "sub-optimal."

Luckily, he has an older brother, who is quite a bit older and far more experienced. His brother is not just out of high school, he is out of college, in a good job, and he has a girl he is engaged to be married with that seems great. Let's call the kid, Peter just for the fun of it. And, Peter goes to his brother for advice.

His brother laughs and says, "First, you've got to learn how to Play the Whole Game."

Peter asks, "What do you mean by that?"

"It means two things, that you need confidence and experience."

Pete says, "Yeh, right, that's what I'm askin' how to get confidence and experience when I don't have any?"

If you were his older brother, what would you say to get his SEEKING system kicking in, and would you include his PLAY system and how? Panksepp insists that the SEEKING, LUST, and PLAY systems are all affective human systems and they can interact.

BTW, the SEEKING system can get the dopamine neurons flowing even without stims if someone is motivated strongly, and Pete's motivations seem powerful to me. Hopefully, these "feelings" don't come off as too feminine here?

 

[kisaj]

Confidence comes through experience, so he needs to get out there and learn from trial and error. Positive experiences build that confidence at an accelerated rate, but I think that the exposure to situations and the comfort level even when failure is encountered still does this. There is some level of confidence that people are born with, but that is probably more just a minimal level needed for life.

The older brother bull and younger brother bull are sitting on a hillside watching a field full of cows. The younger bull says, "let's run down there and **** one of them". The older bull says, "no, lets walk down there and **** them all".

 

[tuberman]

Confidence comes through experience, so he needs to get out there and learn from trial and error. Positive experiences build that confidence at an accelerated rate, but I think that the exposure to situations and the comfort level even when failure is encountered still does this. There is some level of confidence that people are born with, but that is probably more just a minimal level needed for life.

The older brother bull and younger brother bull are sitting on a hillside watching a field full of cows. The younger bull says, "let's run down there and **** one of them". The older bull says, "no, lets walk down there and **** them all".

That's good and I like that, but what if the older brother is far more specific, as he been through it all himself.

---------------------------------------------------------

The older brother could tell Pete. Guess what Pete? Girls and women like sex, and they have a greater capacity for pleasure than guys do by far. It may not seem like this from high school, but college is a whole new game.

Girls live at home in high school, and have their parents to worry about, and they run around in tight little in-groups that bully each other by forcing strong conformity. They are all afraid of getting shut out or shunned by their in-groups if they don't hang out with the right people.

For most girls that all breaks up in college as the groupings they form are not as tight, and they are usually a member of more than one grouping, and they are away from home. More important is that many are as horny as you and want to "sow some wild oats." Just go to the kegger parties this coming fall and you will see. Don't pick one so drunk that she throws up on you.

You are entering that stage of life that I call the forty to fifty friends stage that goes from about age 18 through 23 or 24, where even half-way social people quickly gain a huge social network to hang with for a while. Learn to be be PLAYFUL around girls, as they like to laugh just like guys do. Yet it's not usually jokes, it's a playful attitude. Get them involved in games that will excite their imagination and listen to their responses. Use their responses creatively to get them more invested in you.

Once you get some decent looking to beautiful girls hanging with you, it will attract others as it has a competitive "snow ball effect."

A conversation like this should build confidence in Pete from the beginning, and he may even start being more PLAYFUL with and talking to more girls while still in high school.

 

[tuberman]

I've gotten off track here with this stuff, and it is only distantly related to the topic. It's time for me to quit this direction unless I can see direct connections with noots. Sorry about this, but if I find any new info on noots or stuff that is more directly related, I will return. I do believe brain science as a complete area does have shared insight to noots and similar, but at this point only to myself.

 

[MANotaur]

....Im lost as to how we went from SSRIs and Noots to a 101 on how to get laid and what to look foward to at college...


the perks of manhood lol

 

[kisaj]

Tuberman is just trying to show us that life is a journey..

 

[MANotaur]

YES IT IS! Thats how I ended up in South America for 4 years of my life lol

 

[tuberman]

Tuberman is just trying to show us that life is a journey..

Kisaj,

There was one small point to all of this. Panksepp's SEEKING system is almost the same as the dopamine system in the brain, and if someone is deeply invested in finding his desires, as in LUST here, the strong dopamine effect will kick in and the guy becomes almost as motivated as if he is using drugs. I was just taking too long to get to this point. Also, that's why looking for sex can be so addictive.

SEEKING is always charged up by looking for the new or novel with any desire, and the looking for and immediate success is more important than long-term having which transfers to other less stimulated systems. And the guy learns fast with a great memory of all of these experiences. We have noots and drugs of stimulation ready made in the brain, and one just has to know how to get them going. What's interesting is that LUST is only the lever to help switch on the SEEKING system which is what produces the natural brain stimulant dopamine, but you need the two systems to interact to get the high intensity effects.

Remember, I just finished reading Panksepp's book a few days ago, and it is taking a while to relax and fully understand what I"d read. I've just now gotten around to figure out how this relates to external drugs and stims, as I'm doing this understanding on the fly. Turns out it does relate in the sense mentioned above.

The SEEKING system and it's activation of dopamine neurons is the central focus of Panksepp's book and I'm beginning to get a feel for why that is.

 

[Sprinterguy4]

Aniracetam is amazing. Last night I had a dream and my childhood ex girlfriend, whom i havent spoken to in years was with me for the duration of my dream. I havent even thought of her in years and completely forgot she existed. I looked at the calender and realized that today is her birthday. Coincidence, maybe, but whenever i take ani my dreams are alot more like premonitions and messages and this is the second consecutive day i have taken ani after a 3 week break.

 

[tuberman]

Aniracetam is amazing. Last night I had a dream and my childhood ex girlfriend, whom i havent spoken to in years was with me for the duration of my dream. I havent even thought of her in years and completely forgot she existed. I looked at the calender and realized that today is her birthday. Coincidence, maybe, but whenever i take ani my dreams are alot more like premonitions and messages and this is the second consecutive day i have taken ani after a 3 week break.

I sometimes wonder how Aniracetam works, but otherwise than direct experience I don't have a clue. It seems to calm, so that would suggest interaction with GABA and inteneurons. The brain scientists would not know that's for sure. Ani is still my main go-to noot, and beyond the social positive and anti-anxiety effects, it makes me smarter, and does improve memory, and not just explicit memory. It seems to improve implicit (read unconscious) memories. That's not an oxymoron BTW, as most memories are unconscious in the autobiographic sense. Thinking about typing would make it a slow activity, but your fingers seem to have a memory all on their own, and that's just one of several forms of implicit memory.

Ani is a terrific noot in many ways. I played chess against Chess Titans tonight starting with level 7, then level 8, than one level 9, and a final game at level 10. I won all 6 games. level 7 was too easy, level 8 was harder and I had to think, level 9 I had to put a lot of time into and effort, yet I won, and with a very intense effort on level 10 I won again. Chess Titans is just a pretty good chess program as there are all sorts of chess engines that can easily play solid international master level or even low grand master level, and I would have to spend hours and hours on one game to stand a chance to pick up even a draw against one of those, yet Chess Titans at the two highest levels would make a good level player, and perhaps could reach the chess expert level in tourneys. I know as I was once a ranked chess expert in tournaments. Ancient Times!! Ani and Acetyl-L-Carnatine Arginate are my only current noots.

 

[RipdnTxs]

Ive been on the Welbutrin now for 3 weeks and have gotta say, most of the changes so far have been positive until the past week or so. I have been back to the gym 3 times in the last 8 days, starting out really slow at this point. I know its gonna take a while to get back to where I was, but I am optimistic about sticking with it. I have been having brain zaps the last week or so BAD, sometimes like 10 in a row. I have researched and figure its the Prozac working its way out or the WB is causing them. Ive had them in the past when coming off SSRIs, but never while on them. Ive read the first 4-8 weeks on WB is up and down emotionally and physically so I,m gonna ride this out another 5 weeks or so and then if the zaps are still there and the emotional rollercoaster has not improved, I think I will try noots all the way for a while and see it things improved. Anyone know how to lessen or stop the zaps, having them right now ......

 

[kisaj]

By brain zaps, are you referring to really bad headaches that come and go?

 

[RipdnTxs]

No not at all, its like a little eletrical shock through ur brain. Google Brains zaps on SSRIs and there is tons of other people with the same thing happening. I asked my old Psych, Doc. once what the zaps were and he said it my brains neurons learning to refire from being depressed while on SSRIs. Not sure of the validity of his statement, but that is what he said. This has hapened to me in the past when coming off, but never while on one.

 

[EasyEJL]

has anyone tried pregnenelone transdermal on the temples? I've seen it written about somewhere or another over time, and recently found the powder at a good price.

 

[Sprinterguy4]

has anyone tried pregnenelone transdermal on the temples? I've seen it written about somewhere or another over time, and recently found the powder at a good price.

Nah bro. I need my hair lol

 

[RipdnTxs]

Never heard of that helping with the zaps, but will look in to it. I troubleshoot 480 volt equipment and having these zaps is very unsettling to say the least.....

has anyone tried pregnenelone transdermal on the temples? I've seen it written about somewhere or another over time, and recently found the powder at a good price.

 

[kisaj]

Sounds ****ing miserable- not that I need to tell you that. lol

 

[RipdnTxs]

True Dat !!!! I called and talked to one of the Nurses and will go see Doc. again on Mon. and from the waist down I am covered in either poison ivy or oak..... Good times

Sounds ****ing miserable- not that I need to tell you that. lol

 

[tuberman]

Ive been on the Welbutrin now for 3 weeks and have gotta say, most of the changes so far have been positive until the past week or so. I have been back to the gym 3 times in the last 8 days, starting out really slow at this point. I know its gonna take a while to get back to where I was, but I am optimistic about sticking with it. I have been having brain zaps the last week or so BAD, sometimes like 10 in a row. I have researched and figure its the Prozac working its way out or the WB is causing them. Ive had them in the past when coming off SSRIs, but never while on them. Ive read the first 4-8 weeks on WB is up and down emotionally and physically so I,m gonna ride this out another 5 weeks or so and then if the zaps are still there and the emotional rollercoaster has not improved, I think I will try noots all the way for a while and see it things improved. Anyone know how to lessen or stop the zaps, having them right now ......

You could have tried cutting your Prozac down first to say a 25% dose if what you were using before, or taking 100mg of 5htp before bed time. These may give you a chance to "ween off" without brain zaps.

 

[RipdnTxs]

I have some 5htp at home I may give this a shot, Ive taken half the recommended dose (100mg) the past two days and this morning the zaps are not quite as severe. Thanks for the suggestion.....

 

[RipdnTxs]

Went back to Doc. today. I told him the zaps were so severe yesterday that it was making me literally have whole body jerks. We are done with any Anti. Depressants, I have had alot more energy and motivation on it so the Doc. said we have discovered what Im missing, Dopamine.... He said we will now move in a more noots, ractams, and other minerals direction. I am glad and optimistic to be getting away from these drugs, hopefully for good this time.....

 

[kisaj]

Wow, that's cool that you have an open minded doc like that.

 

[RipdnTxs]

Yea, he is unlike any other Doctor Ive ever gone too. I,m feeling pretty good this morning, had my FXT on the way to work and am on day two with no Willbutrin. The zaps are not near as severe and a little less frequent. He wants to talk with me tomorrow on how I,m doing and go from there....

 

[RipdnTxs]

Ive been off the WB for a week and feeling btr. than when I was taking it. The zaps are still there, just not as bad. The other day a friend of mine and I were talkiing and I was telling him I had a headache and he happened to have some Hydrocodone. I took two and the zaps COMPLETELY went away for two days, now they are back just less severe. I would love to hear opinions on why this occurred...... Doc. said to continue the FXT and I go see him again in a week or two, but definitely felling btr all around. We have a bowflex at work and I used it yesterday and am sore as hell, feels great will hit gym tomorrow.....

 

[jpknberkeley]

Questions about Centrophenoxine

This is getting off topic but the this thread has very informed posters. I've used lots of nootropics but I'm also looking at anti-aging sups like Centrophenoxine but I'm having difficulty finding many people who have even used it. The claim ( according to many web sites ) is that it works a lot better than DMAE in garbage collecting in the body and the brain. It is supposed to remove something called "lipofuscin" which accumulates over the decades in the cells and is the reason older people get liver spots. DMAE has more research supporting the claim that lipofuscin is removed.

The idea that removing lipofuscin from brain cells, heart, kidney and other cells and improving cellular metabolism, especially when used over time is intriguing but may or may not be too good to be true.

 

[tuberman]

This is getting off topic but the this thread has very informed posters. I've used lots of nootropics but I'm also looking at anti-aging sups like Centrophenoxine but I'm having difficulty finding many people who have even used it. The claim ( according to many web sites ) is that it works a lot better than DMAE in garbage collecting in the body and the brain. It is supposed to remove something called "lipofuscin" which accumulates over the decades in the cells and is the reason older people get liver spots. DMAE has more research supporting the claim that lipofuscin is removed.

The idea that removing lipofuscin from brain cells, heart, kidney and other cells and improving cellular metabolism, especially when used over time is intriguing but may or may not be too good to be true.

Jp,

Check out on Longecity for info on Centrophenoxine, as there will be people there with knowledge and experience. I've not had any looking into this stuff or experience and I have not heard of anyone here talking about it, but I believe I've seen a thread or two on Longecity about it, but I haven't read them yet.