Maral Root and Kre Anabolyn

[JD284]

I've searched this topic but couldn't find anything definitive. I've used epistane, DMZ, and Kre anabolyn all on different occassions. I had better results from KA than epi, and almost as good as DMZ but without any of the sides. I have a couple of bottles of KA left but wanted to run the "Maral root" idea by those who may have tried it.

I'm looking at http://supermanherbs.com/maral-root/

has anyone tried this before? or heard of this company?

100/41 servings = 2.4g per serving (teaspoon) - for a 20:1 extract this seems a little high to me - what about 1/2 a teaspoon twice a day with a meal? I took KA with breakfast and dinner 1 pill each and had awesome results.

I know for what it costs, it is close to KA, but i'd like to check it out. They also have pine pollen - worth looking into?

 

[AdelV]

I've never heard of it, def looks interesting.

 

[scoooter]

calling Mixelfick !

 

[JD284]

bump!

 

[mtinsideout]

Bump for more info

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22164439 (maral root)

 

[amarula]

calling Mixelfick !

He is the authority when comes to raponticum

 

[JD284]

This is from an old PM from him:

Cyanotis Vaga is an inferior source genus for Ecdy, and UV testing is a poor way to test it (you want HPLC). Preferred source genus is either Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract or a 25:1 Suma. We use full spectrum RCE in Synthagen, which I formulated for MASS.

Nutricargo.com has both maral and suma extract . I emailed them asking about the maral to see if it is maral "root" - here is what they said:

"Our Maral 4:1 Powdered extract is Maral root also known as Rhaponticum carthamoides. "

A 4:1 extract of suma should be fine, but i'd have to take about 6 times the amount you would take for a 25:1 extract. They have higher extracts but the price is insane.

According to superorganicfoods.com they recommend this:

"For bodybuilding or weightlifting, researchers recommend taking 500 mg for every 40 lbs. of body weight. For optimal gain in muscle strength and size, doses should be spread out in two equal amounts." which is for their raw suma powder (not extract). They also claim : "approximately 2.5 g of beta-ecdysterone can be extracted from 400 g of powdered Suma root-or .63%" - so in theory the higher the extract the more beta content there is, reducing the overall dose required.

I'm not sure what to dose either of these 4:1 extracts, but 1lb minimum order is quite a bit! Mixelflick

 

[Mixelflick]

Maral is simply another name for RCE. Loosely speaking, it's the Russian name for deer. It was observed long ago by the local inhabitants that the deer who ate RCE prior to the harsh winters had the highest survival rates That's when they started looking further into it...Having said that, I'd be wary of cheap RCE/Maral root There are a LOT of fakes that upon analysis have their 20 Hydroxyecdysterone content artificially inflated due to spiking it with Cyanotis Vaga. With respect to the Suma, I'd insist on a 25:1 extract because the 5:1's etc that I've seen have done jack. UN had a product called Sumax that was a 5:1, and it really gave Suma a bad name.Hope that helps..

 

[Grayson]

Badmonkeybotanical has a 50:1 RCE. What would the dosage for this kind of extract be?

 

[JD284]

wow, nice find. i had experienced a noticeable effect with 4:1 maral at 1 tablespoon 3 times a day. I would start small - 500mg 2-3 times a day and assess. slowly up it until you notice it. give it 3-5 days before upping it. That is the highest potency i have seen, and that price is kind of too good to be true. but give it a shot

 

[Grayson]

wow, nice find. i had experienced a noticeable effect with 4:1 maral at 1 tablespoon 3 times a day. I would start small - 500mg 2-3 times a day and assess. slowly up it until you notice it. give it 3-5 days before upping it. That is the highest potency i have seen, and that price is kind of too good to be true. but give it a shot

What did you notice it with it? Increased endurance, muscle mass?

 

[JD284]

What did you notice it with it? Increased endurance, muscle mass?

Mostly muscle fullness and strength. Ability to blow out sets easier. But the stuff tasted nasty, and 1 tablespoon is quite a bit. It would make all my shakes taste terrible. I took it just like Kre Anabolyn - with meals.

 

[Grayson]

Mostly muscle fullness and strength. Ability to blow out sets easier. But the stuff tasted nasty, and 1 tablespoon is quite a bit. It would make all my shakes taste terrible. I took it just like Kre Anabolyn - with meals.

With meals makes sense.

I just can't get a grasp on dosing per extract.

Obviously more wouldn't hurt, but I'd like to optimize it (if it does work since I'm still skeptical)

 

[thescience]

when i see "ecdysterones" listed as the active constituent, I IMMEDIATELY put my credit card back into my wallet

 

[megadeth]

when i see "ecdysterones" listed as the active constituent, I IMMEDIATELY put my credit card back into my wallet

Open your mind brother, you are missing out!

 

[thescience]

Open your mind brother, you are missing out!

i suppose i could alternately miss out on it by taking it orally, as you recommend, since it doesnt reach the bloodstream. the russions of decades ago, whose story has been rehashed over and over, injected the stuff. very different. i am aware that like one in 50 people swear by this orally though. maybe they have leaky gut or something. anyway, my mind was open enough to try it, and the science of trying it confirmed the bad things i read

 

[megadeth]

More than likely, you got low quality extract. Do a search on RCE(Rhaponticum carthamoides Extract). Mixelfick is probably more about ecdy than just about anyone on earth and is a. good dude. He has some good posts here on it.

 

[Mixelflick]

i suppose i could alternately miss out on it by taking it orally, as you recommend, since it doesnt reach the bloodstream. the russions of decades ago, whose story has been rehashed over and over, injected the stuff. very different. i am aware that like one in 50 people swear by this orally though. maybe they have leaky gut or something. anyway, my mind was open enough to try it, and the science of trying it confirmed the bad things i read

I respect your position on Ecdy, but need to point out orally administered Ecdysterone does in fact reach the bloodstream (1). In the paper cited, you can read further about its uptake, utilization and metabolism. I've been using it for 20 years man. Orals, transdermals, HBPCD sublinguals. And yes, I've injected it too. Had a chemist prepare a sterile RCE solution using the raws from ICPS (The Institute of Chemistry and Plant Sciences), in Uzbekistan.

"Tsitsimpikou et al. (2001) analysed the urine of a volunteer having ingested 20 mg of “Ecdysten™” (a commercial preparation containing 20E – see section 6); they collected urine over 5 days and analysed ecdysteroids by GC-MS after derivatization. They found, together with 20E, two less hydroxylated metabolites, which they tentatively identified as 2d20E and 2dE by comparison with available reference molecules..."


Further, a study done just this year found anabolic effects, and called for it being banned in sport(2)

(1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC524647/
(2) Mol Nutr Food Res. 2014 Jun 27. doi: 10.1002/mnfr.201300806. [Epub ahead of print].

FURTHER READING: http://www.ergo-log.com/anabolic-effect-ecdysterone-doping-list.html via

 

[thescience]

I respect your position on Ecdy, but need to point out orally administered Ecdysterone does in fact reach the bloodstream (1). In the paper cited, you can read further about its uptake, utilization and metabolism. I've been using it for 20 years man. Orals, transdermals, HBPCD sublinguals. And yes, I've injected it too. Had a chemist prepare a sterile RCE solution using the raws from ICPS (The Institute of Chemistry and Plant Sciences), in Uzbekistan.

"Tsitsimpikou et al. (2001) analysed the urine of a volunteer having ingested 20 mg of "Ecdysten(TM)" (a commercial preparation containing 20E - see section 6); they collected urine over 5 days and analysed ecdysteroids by GC-MS after derivatization. They found, together with 20E, two less hydroxylated metabolites, which they tentatively identified as 2d20E and 2dE by comparison with available reference molecules..."

Further, a study done just this year found anabolic effects, and called for it being banned in sport(2)

(1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC524647/
(2) Mol Nutr Food Res. 2014 Jun 27. doi: 10.1002/mnfr.201300806. [Epub ahead of print].

FURTHER READING: http://www.ergo-log.com/anabolic-effect-ecdysterone-doping-list.html via

Interesting. Did you get the same results downing it as u got injecting it?

 

[thescience]

Ecdysten has some interesting info on their product page. Their arguement is that tests for potency have been all wrong, the result being that amounts people thought werent absorbed were actually never present, , and that the source of the active matters. Theyre comparing the stuff to d-bol withouy sides. Anyone here want to cofirm that? Im game. I'll try ectdysten, even though it has been discontinued by some respectable megasites, where is was sold dirt cheap. Looks like they added bioperine so maybe that helps with any absorption issues. Im also hearing people recommending far beyond the recommended dose at 100mg a day for the benefits. Most ive heard from people benefit wise is 5lb weightgain after four weeks and 15lbs added to their bench. Dosnt sound like d-bol, but worth a run

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Ecdysten has some interesting info on their product page. Their arguement is that tests for potency have been all wrong, the result being that amounts peopke thought werent absorbed were actually never present, , and that the source of the active matters. Theyre comparing the stuff to d-bol withouy sides. Anyone here want to cofirm that? Im game. I'll try ectdysten.Wont be biying the bulk. Maral powder though

I just read their page. They talked about HPLC vs UV testing. I priced bulk maral root powder; from one retailer, 95% HPLC was nearly 3x the price of 95% UV. Most places I've seen require a minimum order of at least 1kg, and 1kg isn't cheap. It seems impractical for one person to buy it by the kilo; wouldn't it go bad before one person can finish it alone? I suppose it could be worthwhile if a bunch of people chip in and split it.

 

[thescience]

A supplement calles omnibolic looks intereesting. Perhaps ecdysten was d/c'd because ecdypure is in higher dosages in other products

 

[muscleupcrohn]

A supplement calles omnibolic looks intereesting. Perhaps ecdysten was d/c'd because ecdypure is in higher dosages in other products

I don't know, but the price almost seems to be too good to be true for RCE. The prices I've seen when looking to order by the kilogram were around $1500 per kilogram for 95% RCE, and that's Chinese stuff. Based on the price of Omnibolic, it comes out to $2000 per kilogram of RCE, and there's also a ton of capsules and packaging, and you'r buying it in much smaller quantities. I could be wrong, but is a dose of 500mg/day (the instructions for Omnibolic) needed? That's around 5mg/kg for a 200lb person, which is what was used in rat studies. Shouldn't the human dose be around 0.8mg/kg (5x0.16), or around 73mg for a 200lb person? I recall mixelflick mentioning 73mg before. It's very possible that I'm missing something/getting some information wrong though.

 

[thescience]

I don't know, but the price almost seems to be too good to be true for RCE. The prices I've seen when looking to order by the kilogram were around $1500 per kilogram for 95% RCE, and that's Chinese stuff. Based on the price of Omnibolic, it comes out to $2000 per kilogram of RCE, and there's also a ton of capsules and packaging, and you'r buying it in much smaller quantities. I could be wrong, but is a dose of 500mg/day (the instructions for Omnibolic) needed? That's around 5mg/kg for a 200lb person, which is what was used in rat studies. Shouldn't the human dose be around 0.8mg/kg (5x0.16), or around 73mg for a 200lb person? I recall mixelflick mentioning 73mg before. It's very possible that I'm missing something/getting some information wrong though.

Where did you get the quote for the bulk extract in omnibolic? The stuff is sourced from ectybolan from a company called herbal innovations. As far as rats to human comparisons go, i think omnibolic arbitrarily detemined the dose without feeling the need to conform to results found in a study. This could be because benefits werent noticed at lower doses or because more benefits were noticed at higher ones. Product reviewd for omnibolic are either it helps or does absolutely nothing even at 12 caps a day

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Where did you get the quote for the bulk extract in omnibolic? The stuff is sourced from ectybolan from a company called herbal innovations. As far as rats to human comparisons go, i think omnibolic arbitrarily detemined the dose without feeling the need to conform to results found in a study. This could be because benefits werent noticed at lower doses or because more benefits were noticed at higher ones. Product reviewd for omnibolic are either it helps or does absolutely nothing even at 12 caps a day

I didn't get a quote for the specific extract in Omnibolic. I got quotes from various Chinese bulk suppliers of Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract with 95% HPLC Ecdysterone and the price tended to be around $1500/kg. I'm still not 100% sure that they're completely legit even at that price, but that tended to be the average price. The $2000/kg for what's in Omnibolic is just a calculation I did based on the price I see it for online and the total amount of RCE in a bottle at that price. The description for Omnibolic says "Ecdybolan™ is 100% PURE Ecdysterone extract." Like I said, I could very well be missing some key information or getting something wrong here.

 

[thescience]

I didn't get a quote for the specific extract in Omnibolic. I got quotes from various Chinese bulk suppliers of Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract with 95% HPLC Ecdysterone and the price tended to be around $1500/kg. I'm still not 100% sure that they're completely legit even at that price, but that tended to be the average price. The $2000/kg for what's in Omnibolic is just a calculation I did based on the price I see it for online and the total amount of RCE in a bottle at that price. The description for Omnibolic says "Ecdybolan™ is 100% PURE Ecdysterone extract." Like I said, I could very well be missing some key information or getting something wrong here.

Well" 100% PURE" just means there isnt any cowdung etc in the product because it is only an extract from that herb, but how high the yield is of that extract and what the ratios are isnt listed on the label

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Well" 100% PURE" just means there isnt any cowdung etc in the product because it is only an extract from that herb, but how high the yield is of that extract and what the ratios are isnt listed on the label

I interpreted it differently:
"Ecdybolan™ is 100% PURE Ecdysterone extract, standardized to contain the scientific ratios of Ecdysteroids, 60% 20-Hydroxyecdysone, 40% Ecdysones."

 

[thescience]

I interpreted it differently:
"Ecdybolan™ is 100% PURE Ecdysterone extract, standardized to contain the scientific ratios of Ecdysteroids, 60% 20-Hydroxyecdysone, 40% Ecdysones."

the part about what it is standardized to contain does indicate its ecdysteroids and nothing else, unless "ratios" herein described are limited to what is extracted; i think it is 100% though, based on two reasons: 1) new technology has come about to make extraction much more cheaper. perhaps the source you found in china does not possess that technology. 2) the previous version of omnibolic listed the actual milligram content of 20-Hydroxyecdyson, and it was quite high; the new version did away with the citrulline and supposedly was refashioned to be more effective

 

[thescience]

stuff i used back in the day was Sci Fit Ecdy Sterone 300. supposedly had 300mg 20-Hydroxyecdysone. Mixelflick has previously indicated, however, that it is a full spectrum extract, not 20-Hydroxyecdysone, which works. im not sure how complete an extract omnibolic is, or what would constitute this ideal extract as i havent seen all of the essential properties disclosed anywhere.

 

[Mixelflick]

Interesting. Did you get the same results downing it as u got injecting it?

Slightly better, at a lower dose (70mg/day vs 100mg/day oral). The RCE was a water based solution,so necessitated daily injections. Then you've got to ensure the right EAA's are in circulation for the workout, the other things that help Ecdy along. Was interesting experiment, but don't know that I'd do it again.

 

[thescience]

Slightly better, at a lower dose (70mg/day vs 100mg/day oral). The RCE was a water based solution,so necessitated daily injections. Then you've got to ensure the right EAA's are in circulation for the workout, the other things that help Ecdy along. Was interesting experiment, but don't know that I'd do it again.

haha alright Mixel, youve given ecdy alot of thought. it sounds like there are alot of pitfalls companies face when they decide to put together an effective ecdy supplement. any you recommend? whats youre take on omnibolic? (profile below)
120 Capsules
Serving Size 2 Capsules
Servings Per Container60
Amount Per Serving % DV *
Ecdybolan™ Ecdysteroids Derived from Full-Spectrum Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract (Containing High Levels of 20-Hydroxyecdysone, Turkesterone, Ponasterone, and Cyasterone)

does this have all the other unspoken goodies (resins etc)? also, what was the most benefit you ever got from your best run of an oral ecdy (lbs of weights added to sets, bodyweight gained or lost, time to achieve results, where results reached plateau) with the specialized ecdy training program etc all taken into account?

finally, did you reach a quantity past which higher dosing became useless?

 

[Mixelflick]

I will PM you...

 

[alvin1]

I would also like to get the pm about omnibolic

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I would also like to get the pm about omnibolic

Same here.

 

[pjrc1974]

Me too BP army...

 

[Mixelflick]

Me too BP army...

Please PM me guys, I'm having difficulty PM'ing you for some reason..

 

[alvin1]

Pm are or not working for the moment

 

[Mixelflick]

I see, many thanks..

 

[cubs1987]

bumping this as I saw Primeval released a new sup with this as the main. In for more info and reading.

 

[cubs1987]

VaughnTrue I noticed this is included in Equibolin as well. Do you have any additional info/thoughts to share?

 

[VaughnTrue]

VaughnTrue I noticed this is included in Equibolin as well. Do you have any additional info/thoughts to share?

Rhaponticum Carthamoides in specific? or something else? want to make sure I am responding to the right question...


if RC, then its an ingredient many like, however the real world results dont mimic the "potential" listed in studies. I like it as a natural anabolic that increases protein synthesis.

 

[cubs1987]

Rhaponticum Carthamoides in specific? or something else? want to make sure I am responding to the right question...


if RC, then its an ingredient many like, however the real world results dont mimic the "potential" listed in studies. I like it as a natural anabolic that increases protein synthesis.

sorry if that was ambiguous.. ya was just looking for more info in general, extract % etc

 

[VaughnTrue]

sorry if that was ambiguous.. ya was just looking for more info in general, extract % etc

lot of really impressive science out there on the compound as a whole. the extract can vary so much from company to company, I have found it's best to find one that works well for you and stick with it

 

[mbonheur]

How would you dose plain maral root powder (just 1:1)? You can get it pretty easily in Eastern Europe and it is not too expensive.

I've had good results with Turkesterone (however I need minimum 50mg, so it becomes pricey), MP 90% CV ecdysterone (often 50% off, so like 10€ for 60 caps at 300mg) at 1,5 to 2 grams and Rhaponticum carthamoides 10:1 extract at like 4 grams a day. Each compound taken on its own

I would like to test plain maral root powder, but 40g seems overkill. Any suggestions? Btw I respond pretty well to Ecdysterone

 

[mbonheur]

Up

Btw, what is the deal with 100:1 RCE? Is this technically even possible?