low dose of clomid

[sportf190]

hey guys im currently on day 16 of my pct with just nolva and my balls still do not seem like they have returned to normal off of my pp/sd bridge.. would it be benefical if i waited another week and still don't see any progress to take a low dose of clomid, maybe 50 or 100 grams.. Also would that help for sex drive.. i was thinking about cialis but i dont want my body to become dependent on that, as it will only work when i take it but not permently thanks

 

[sportf190]

bump

 

[mooch2321]

use clomid, 50 mg a day and run an ai. no need for nolva in a pct does nothing to stimulate lh function. next time use hcg and then clomid. also run an ai. for some reason this board loves nolva only pct. this is not an effective pct as u are now finding out.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Nolva is superior over Clomid for the simple reason that it’s a pure anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus. It will stimulate LH at a lower dose than Clomid everytime, and provide a higher testosterone boost than Clomid, everytime.

Clomid can get the job done, but it’s not as efficient as nolva. Clomid has a 50% mixture of zuclomiphene and enclomiphene. Enclomiphene is the primary anti-estrogen responsible for the effects you want [eg, boosting testosterone] However, the estrogenic zuclomiphene is the estrogenic isomer that causes the emotional side-effects, suppressed sex drive, and desensitization of the pituitary, which is why it can partly inhibit Testosterone production – sorta like taking 2 steps forward, and 1 step back. [also why you have to take twice as much for the same effect as Nolva]

My point is, you’re not going to get any better results from the Clomid, and it may even inhibit your results.

How long was the cycle anyway?

-Pp

 

[tnick7]

use clomid, 50 mg a day and run an ai. no need for nolva in a pct does nothing to stimulate lh function. next time use hcg and then clomid. also run an ai. for some reason this board loves nolva only pct. this is not an effective pct as u are now finding out.

Wrong. Horribly so as well (IMO).

Invalid Link Removed

Read this thread, it doesnt start on this topic but goes into it [take specific notice of posts by Ziqour]

 

[tnick7]

Nolva is superior over Clomid for the simple reason that it’s a pure anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus. It will stimulate LH at a lower dose than Clomid everytime, and provide a higher testosterone boost than Clomid, everytime.

Clomid can get the job done, but it’s not as efficient as nolva. Clomid has a 50% mixture of zuclomiphene and enclomiphene. Enclomiphene is the primary anti-estrogen responsible for the effects you want [eg, boosting testosterone] However, the estrogenic zuclomiphene is the estrogenic isomer that causes the emotional side-effects, suppressed sex drive, and desensitization of the pituitary, which is why it can partly inhibit Testosterone production – sorta like taking 2 steps forward, and 1 step back. [also why you have to take twice as much for the same effect as Nolva]

My point is, you’re not going to get any better results from the Clomid, and it may even inhibit your results.

How long was the cycle anyway?

-Pp

Good to see a respected member here have something good to say about Nolva. It seems many are swaying towards Clomid these days due to hearsay that Clomid will bring you balls back faster [which is not something I, or many studies, agree with]

 

[sportf190]

im going to give sustain alpha a try from PP it has great reviews of people having an increased libido from the natural test boost.. well see how this goes..

 

[crazyfool405]

Invalid Link Removed

little excerpt....
Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

 

[lennoxchi]

would there be anything wrong with running both together? besides toxicity? a low dose of both?

 

[Eric Potratz]

Invalid Link Removed

little excerpt....
Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

Michael Scally is incorrect in his assertion that estrogen increases pituitary response to GnRH.

Estrogen only sensitizes the pituitary in females. It has the opposite effect in males. Consider the below abstracts.

Again, clomid is less effective than nolvadex, and will only inhibit nolvadex’s effectiveness.

-Pp

Aromatase Inhibition in the Human Male Reveals a Hypothalamic Site of Estrogen Feedback
F. J. Hayes, et al.
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., September 1, 2000; 85(9): 3027 - 3035.

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.
Winters SJ, Troen P.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 61:842–845 (1985)

LH and FSH response to synthetic LHRH after consecutive administration of clomiphene citrate in normal males. Hashimoto T, et al.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 41:1110–1112. (1975)

Modulation of pituitary responsiveness to exogenous LHRH by an estrogenic and an anti-oestrogenic compound in the normal male.
Dhont M, et al.
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 5:175–180 (1976)

 

[Eric Potratz]

would there be anything wrong with running both together? besides toxicity? a low dose of both?

You’re going to be best off with a pure estrogen antagonist, such as nolva or toremifene. Clomid will only hinder the effectivness of these SERM's.

-Pp

 

[Pemmican]

You’re going to be best off with a pure estrogen antagonist, such as nolva or toremifene. Clomid will only hinder the effectivness of these SERM's.

-Pp

I just purchased liquid Toremifene...60 mg/ml. what would be a good dosage for this? How soon into the PCT should i start it, and is it ok to take along with a natural test booster/etrogen blocker/libido enhancer (Arom-X by AMS)?

Thanks for the help

 

[Eric Potratz]

I just purchased liquid Toremifene...60 mg/ml. what would be a good dosage for this? How soon into the PCT should i start it, and is it ok to take along with a natural test booster/etrogen blocker/libido enhancer (Arom-X by AMS)?

Thanks for the help

60mg/day would be a good dose. You would want to start it right after the hormones clear the system. [1-2 days for orals].

-Pp

 

[crazyfool405]

You’re going to be best off with a pure estrogen antagonist, such as nolva or toremifene. Clomid will only hinder the effectivness of these SERM's.

-Pp

you do know that clomid has mixed antagonist and agonist effects,....

 

[Eric Potratz]

you do know that clomid has mixed antagonist and agonist effects,....

Yep, its 50% estrogen [euclomiphene], 50% anti-estrogen [zuclomiphene]... and each of these isomers have mixed estrogenic effects, and so do their metabolites.

-Pp

 

[crazyfool405]

Yep, its 50% estrogen [euclomiphene], 50% anti-estrogen [zuclomiphene]... and each of these isomers have mixed estrogenic effects, and so do their metabolites.

-Pp

straight from dave palumbo....

CLOMID mimics the effects of GnRH.........that is, it stimulates the pituitary to produce LH/FSH........that's how it "kick starts" the pituitary gland.


ESTROGEN shuts down the HYPOTHALAMUS (shuts off the GnRH that stimulates the Pituitary to release LH/FSH).................when you stop estrogen production via 6-oxo (or any aromatase inhibitor), you release that negative feedback and GNRH increase, LH/FSH increase, and Testosterone production from the testicles increases.



NOLVADEX doesn't have a profound effect on the HYPOTHALAMUS. All it does is block estrogen receptors......

 

[Eric Potratz]

straight from dave palumbo....

CLOMID mimics the effects of GnRH.........that is, it stimulates the pituitary to produce LH/FSH........that's how it "kick starts" the pituitary gland.


ESTROGEN shuts down the HYPOTHALAMUS (shuts off the GnRH that stimulates the Pituitary to release LH/FSH).................when you stop estrogen production via 6-oxo (or any aromatase inhibitor), you release that negative feedback and GNRH increase, LH/FSH increase, and Testosterone production from the testicles increases.



NOLVADEX doesn't have a profound effect on the HYPOTHALAMUS. All it does is block estrogen receptors......

I think your missing the point here...

Your right about Clomid being an anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus and stimulating LH & FSH.

However, Clomid has an estogenic action at the pituitary, thus it reduces the pituitary’s ability to respond to GnRH – which down-regulates the pituitary’s ability to produce LH & FSH. [part of the reason why it takes 2x a much clomid to be as effective as nolva]

Nolva is an anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus AND pituitary, thus it stimulates LH & FSH more efficiently than clomid.

-Pp

 

[Trauma1]

I think your missing the point here...

Your right about Clomid being an anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus and stimulating LH & FSH.

However, Clomid has an estogenic action at the pituitary, thus it reduces the pituitary’s ability to respond to GnRH – which down-regulates the pituitary’s ability to produce LH & FSH. [part of the reason why it takes 2x a much clomid to be as effective as nolva]

Nolva is an anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus AND pituitary, thus it stimulates LH & FSH more efficiently than clomid.

-Pp

Well said for certain. Bravo sir, bravo! :clap2:

 

[Pemmican]

60mg/day would be a good dose. You would want to start it right after the hormones clear the system. [1-2 days for orals].

-Pp

what do you think of tapering off...i found a source that says:

120mg/day - week 1
120 mg/day -week 2
60mg/day week 3
30mg/day week 4

wouldnt that make more sense than a flat dosage all the way through the PCT so the body can learn to work for itself slowly as opposed to going 'cold turkey' after 4 weeks of PCT?

Again, thanks for the help

 

[Eric Potratz]

what do you think of tapering off...i found a source that says:

120mg/day - week 1
120 mg/day -week 2
60mg/day week 3
30mg/day week 4

wouldnt that make more sense than a flat dosage all the way through the PCT so the body can learn to work for itself slowly as opposed to going 'cold turkey' after 4 weeks of PCT?

Again, thanks for the help

Naturally, SERM’s tend to linger in the body for 8-12 days because they are fat soluble… so you already get a slow decline.

If you want to taper, that’s fine. I wouldn’t frontload though. No need to spike an already semi-toxic compound.

-Pp

 

[abuleh]

Could anybody comment this study (attached) with regards to the above discussion?

~abuleh

 

[Eric Potratz]

Could anybody comment this study (attached) with regards to the above discussion?

~abuleh

Results like this are typical. He likely would have had even better results with Nolvadex at a much lower dose.

-Pp

 

[Kristofer68SS]

use clomid, 50 mg a day and run an ai. no need for nolva in a pct does nothing to stimulate lh function. next time use hcg and then clomid. also run an ai. for some reason this board loves nolva only pct. this is not an effective pct as u are now finding out.

watch the public lashings unfold............lol

 

[Kristofer68SS]

straight from dave palumbo....

CLOMID mimics the effects of GnRH.........that is, it stimulates the pituitary to produce LH/FSH........that's how it "kick starts" the pituitary gland.


ESTROGEN shuts down the HYPOTHALAMUS (shuts off the GnRH that stimulates the Pituitary to release LH/FSH).................when you stop estrogen production via 6-oxo (or any aromatase inhibitor), you release that negative feedback and GNRH increase, LH/FSH increase, and Testosterone production from the testicles increases.



NOLVADEX doesn't have a profound effect on the HYPOTHALAMUS. All it does is block estrogen receptors......

Props for tearing the nolva wolves off his back...........lol..........reps......

 

[crazyfool405]

once again ....

this is what i asked palumbo, his answer in bold...
The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

dave how do you feel about this written by william Llewellyn

Since CLOMID is essentially mimics the hypothalamic hormone, GnRH, it makes sense that taking CLOMID would decrease pituitary sensitivity to naturally released GnRH because there's TOO MUCH "SIGNAL" around. However, the CLOMID is still doing the job of turning ON the pituitary and causing the release of LH/FSH (as is evident by the fact that testosterone levels increase in response to Clomid).

These simple facts are the exact reason that suggest taking an AROMATASE INHIBITOR and CLOMID in the PCT period.

The reason that NOLVADEX makes the pituitary more sensitive to naturally produced hypothalamic GnRH is that it blocks estrogen receptors on the hypothalamus and thus removes the NEGATIVE FEEDBACK HORMONE (Estrogen) from inhibiting the hypothalamus from producing GnRH.

If the experimenters had introduced an AROMATASE INHIBITOR like ARIMIDEX, they would have noticed lower serum estrogen AND higher pituitary sensitivity to GnRH as well since the estrogen was removed from the equation. (
___
i hardly see raloxofen used, but of the other 3, can you give a breakdown of what they do and where their estrogenic/anti estrogenic activities are observed, which are better during and post cycle, and why you chose it? which on stimulates what area (pituitary, hypothalmus or both) which one is favored for increease in testosterone?

maybe if you dont do it on here, maybe a write up in MD, because it seems soo controversial, and people use a combo of 2 and really cant seem to choose or find better evidence with one is better then the other.

Nolva, Clomid, and Torem

Going back to my original PCT recommendations:
(1) Aromatase inhibitors are taken throughout the PCT (whether you use ARIMIDEX or my TESTOSTOLYZE) to block estrogen formation.
(2) HCG (an LH/FSH mimicking agent) is taken to turn the testicles back ON and cause they to produce testosterone
(3) Clomid is started once the HCG is stopped. Clomid mimics the Hypothalamic hormone GnRH; therefore, it will turn the Pituitary back ON.

*** Once the testicles and pituitary is re-stimulated, we're good to go! The hypothalamus merely responds to levels of estrogen. When they're high, it stops producing GnRH.........when estrogen is low, it cranks out more GnRH.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Im with you on Clomid and HCG.........thats what the Doctors are/were prescribing before going to HRT or TRT.......(not sure anymore with the Ralox)

Nolva is for biatch tits........

 

[Pemmican]

Naturally, SERM’s tend to linger in the body for 8-12 days because they are fat soluble… so you already get a slow decline.

If you want to taper, that’s fine. I wouldn’t frontload though. No need to spike an already semi-toxic compound.

-Pp

alright, that sounds reasonable. I didnt realize that SERMs remained in the body for that long. So essentially, they do the tapering for you over the 2 weeks after you come off the actual dosages?

 

[Eric Potratz]

once again ....

this is what i asked palumbo, his answer in bold...
The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

dave how do you feel about this written by william Llewellyn

Since CLOMID is essentially mimics the hypothalamic hormone, GnRH, it makes sense that taking CLOMID would decrease pituitary sensitivity to naturally released GnRH because there's TOO MUCH "SIGNAL" around. However, the CLOMID is still doing the job of turning ON the pituitary and causing the release of LH/FSH (as is evident by the fact that testosterone levels increase in response to Clomid).

These simple facts are the exact reason that suggest taking an AROMATASE INHIBITOR and CLOMID in the PCT period.

The reason that NOLVADEX makes the pituitary more sensitive to naturally produced hypothalamic GnRH is that it blocks estrogen receptors on the hypothalamus and thus removes the NEGATIVE FEEDBACK HORMONE (Estrogen) from inhibiting the hypothalamus from producing GnRH.

If the experimenters had introduced an AROMATASE INHIBITOR like ARIMIDEX, they would have noticed lower serum estrogen AND higher pituitary sensitivity to GnRH as well since the estrogen was removed from the equation. (
___
i hardly see raloxofen used, but of the other 3, can you give a breakdown of what they do and where their estrogenic/anti estrogenic activities are observed, which are better during and post cycle, and why you chose it? which on stimulates what area (pituitary, hypothalmus or both) which one is favored for increease in testosterone?

maybe if you dont do it on here, maybe a write up in MD, because it seems soo controversial, and people use a combo of 2 and really cant seem to choose or find better evidence with one is better then the other.

Nolva, Clomid, and Torem

Going back to my original PCT recommendations:
(1) Aromatase inhibitors are taken throughout the PCT (whether you use ARIMIDEX or my TESTOSTOLYZE) to block estrogen formation.
(2) HCG (an LH/FSH mimicking agent) is taken to turn the testicles back ON and cause they to produce testosterone
(3) Clomid is started once the HCG is stopped. Clomid mimics the Hypothalamic hormone GnRH; therefore, it will turn the Pituitary back ON.

*** Once the testicles and pituitary is re-stimulated, we're good to go! The hypothalamus merely responds to levels of estrogen. When they're high, it stops producing GnRH.........when estrogen is low, it cranks out more GnRH.

Dave is ignoring the fact that clomiphene is desensitizing the pituitary. Clomid is doing this because it is 50% estrogen, not because it’s over-working the pituitary. [remember, estrogen down-regulates the pituitary in males]

BTW, clomid does not “mimic” GnRH. It blocks part of the negative feedback by blocking estrogen at the hypothalamus just like nolvadex -- thus stimulating GnRH -- except clomid is less effective than nolvadex because its 50% estrogenic and 50% anti-estrogenic with its mixed zuclomiphene and enclomiphene constitution.

There really is no augment here. Nolva is more effective for stimulating LH, FSH and testosterone production.

BTW, raloxifene is going to be just as effective as nolvadex and safer.

-Pp

 

[Eyayo]

from dinoiii

"If you were to actually look at the studies (and NO, NOT the abstracts alone...we've been over this time and time again)...every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifen, the duration of the administration is 3-12months. Ummmm, if you are suggesting someone use tamoxifen for that duration, you sir are VERY misguided in your understanding here.

In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamoxifen, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. Remember the usual citation is that tamoxifen selectively works at the mammary gland level (as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur. Still, this doesn't take into account the pro-estrogenic accord at the level of muscle tissue leading to the suggested and well-known post-cycle bonk.

With clomid, benefit to gonadotropin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Mind you, Clomid in this sense is the ONLY PRACTICAL CHOICE for PCT."

 

[Eric Potratz]

I don’t know who dinoiii is and I dont know what studies he is referring to, but that is some gross misinformation.

Ask any HRT patient who has tested his LH, FSH or T levels after starting tamoxifen treatment. Levels can double in less than a week.

-Pp

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I don’t know who dinoiii is and I dont know what studies he is referring to, but that is some gross misinformation.

Ask any HRT patient who has tested his LH, FSH or T levels after starting tamoxifen treatment. Levels can double in less than a week.

-Pp

I suppose you will show us this somehow?

Gross misinformation, I think thats a bit of a stretch.

Clomid and HCG is common practice for returning test levels in males.

 

[crazyfool405]

I suppose you will show us this somehow?

Gross information, I think thats a bit of a stretch.

Clomid and HCG is common practice for returning test levels in males.

and if you use an AI while taking clomid, itll minimize the desensitizing dont ya think

 

[Eric Potratz]

I suppose you will show us this somehow?

Gross misinformation, I think thats a bit of a stretch.

Clomid and HCG is common practice for returning test levels in males.

Nolvadex doesn’t stimulate LH or FSH? -- That is misinformation.

Studies with Nolvadex have mostly been long-term, thus it has no use for short-term therapy? – That is misinformation.

You won’t find short-term studies on hormonal effects with tamoxifen because that’s not what it’s clinically intended for. It’s intended for long-term use in breast cancer patients. It never picked up a reputation for fertility treatment because Clomid has been the fertility drug of choice since the 1960’s.

Clomid was historically used as a fertility drug for women, to be used for short 2-3 week periods. It was assumed that because Clomid worked in as a fertility inducer in women, it would work in men – and it did.

Fertility treatment is Clomid’s lineage and this is the reason Clomid is still chosen by Endocrinologists today. [even though Nolva works just as well, at half the dose]

Keep in mind, there are enlighted endocrinologists that will prescribe Nolvadex for fertility/HRT treatment too, for the same reasons I mentioned previously.

Its funny that I’m even supporting Nolvadex, because I personally dont touch the stuff. Both Clomid and Nolvadex are inherently Invalid Link Removed. Im just trying to clear up a long-time misunderstanding.

-Pp

 

[Eric Potratz]

and if you use an AI while taking clomid, itll minimize the desensitizing dont ya think

Nope, an aromatase inhibitor won’t help. Clomid is an estrogen all by its little self… which is why most men feel like an emotional wreck when using it.

-Pp

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Nolvadex doesn’t stimulate LH or FSH? -- That is misinformation.

Studies with Nolvadex have mostly been long-term, thus it has no use for short-term therapy? – That is misinformation.

You won’t find short-term studies on hormonal effects with tamoxifen because that’s not what it’s clinically intended for. It’s intended for long-term use in breast cancer patients. It never picked up a reputation for fertility treatment because Clomid has been the fertility drug of choice since the 1960’s.

Clomid was historically used as a fertility drug for women, to be used for short 2-3 week periods. It was assumed that because Clomid worked in as a fertility inducer in women, it would work in men – and it did.

Fertility treatment is Clomid’s lineage and this is the reason Clomid is still chosen by Endocrinologists today. [even though Nolva works just as well, at half the dose]

Keep in mind, there are enlighted endocrinologists that will prescribe Nolvadex for fertility/HRT treatment too, for the same reasons I mentioned previously.

Its funny that I’m even supporting Nolvadex, because I personally dont touch the stuff. Both Clomid and Nolvadex are inherently Invalid Link Removed. Im just trying to clear up a long-time misunderstanding.

-Pp

Thanks. I am from the old school. I just believe Nolva is an Anti-E and Clomid is to return Test levels. Ideally with HCG. Not going to deviate from that thinking. Right or wrong.

I know Nolva is listed as a carcinagen, but I am not sure about clomid.

what do you use for pct? if you dont mind.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Thanks. I am from the old school. I just believe Nolva is an Anti-E and Clomid is to return Test levels. Ideally with HCG.

I know Nolva is listed as a carcinagen, but I am not sure about clomid.

what do you use for pct? if you dont mind.

Yes, they are both carcinogens. [more info in the article I linked to in the above post]

I would use hCG during the cycle [for cycles longer than 4 weeks], and use our Invalid Link Removed for PCT.

I don’t use SERM’s anymore, but if I had to choose a SERM I would choose toremifene at 40mg/day for 30 days with the Recovery Stack.

-Eric

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Yes, they are both carcinogens. [more info in the article I linked to in the above post]

I would use hCG during the cycle [for cycles longer than 4 weeks], and use our Invalid Link Removed for PCT.

I don’t use SERM’s anymore, but if I had to choose a SERM I would choose toremifene at 40mg/day for 30 days with the Recovery Stack.

-Eric

I got some L-tor right now.....Though I cant seem to find anymore of it. That makes me wonder. At least arr didnt have it last time i checked.

Is the Test recovery stack , 1 TD and 2 Orals?

I hear your stuff is legit. Havent got a chance to try it though.

 

[Eyayo]

I don’t know who dinoiii is and I dont know what studies he is referring to, but that is some gross misinformation.

Ask any HRT patient who has tested his LH, FSH or T levels after starting tamoxifen treatment. Levels can double in less than a week.

-Pp

i dont think he posts here but hes Dana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
Industry Author & Product Development Consultant ( from his sig)

 

[crazyfool405]

Yes, they are both carcinogens. [more info in the article I linked to in the above post]

I would use hCG during the cycle [for cycles longer than 4 weeks], and use our Invalid Link Removed for PCT.

I don’t use SERM’s anymore, but if I had to choose a SERM I would choose toremifene at 40mg/day for 30 days with the Recovery Stack.

-Eric

so u would use hCG with no AI although it has a high rate for converstion?

and if you already take a vitamin E supplement DAILY wouldnt toco 8 have a lesser effect? especially if your not deficient in it to begin with?

and werent these studies only done in vitamin E DEFICIENT rats? granted i dont have the full studies,

and beta sitosterol lowers testosterone levels?

 

[Eric Potratz]

I got some L-tor right now.....Though I cant seem to find anymore of it. That makes me wonder. At least arr didnt have it last time i checked.

Is the Test recovery stack , 1 TD and 2 Orals?

I hear your stuff is legit. Havent got a chance to try it though.

Yes, its the Sustain Alpha [topical], EndoAmp [powder], and Toco-8 [powder].

-Pp

 

[Eric Potratz]

i dont think he posts here but hes Dana Houser, MD, MHSA, CISSN
Industry Author & Product Development Consultant ( from his sig)

I’m sure the guy knows his shi* but he would have to explain his reasoning on those points.

-Pp

 

[bioman]

All I can say from personal experience is that nolva does bring the boys back but libido takes several weeks after cessation to return. Clomid also brings them back, notably faster, and the increase in libido is almost immediate. Without getting into the nuts and bolts of the endocrinology, each of them has very practical utility.

While it's true that AM tends to support the use of Nolva for pct, this is done for the practical aspect that it helps to prevent gyno while Clomid typically does not.

Toremifene is hands down, 10X better than Nolva at about 1/4 of it's toxicity. It brings back teste size and libido in 7-10 days.

 

[Eric Potratz]

so u would use hCG with no AI although it has a high rate for converstion?

and if you already take a vitamin E supplement DAILY wouldnt toco 8 have a lesser effect? especially if your not deficient in it to begin with?

and werent these studies only done in vitamin E DEFICIENT rats? granted i dont have the full studies,

and beta sitosterol lowers testosterone levels?

Low doses of hCG have a low conversion rate to estrogen. It’s not until you go over 250iu that you have to worry about excess estrogen from hCG.

If you wait till the end of the cycle to use hCG you will have to use higher doses, and an AI.

Yes, if you already take vitamin E, Toco-8 may have a lesser effect on testosterone production. But if you switched to Toco-8 you could benefit from the effects on LDL, atherosclerosis, blood pressure, ect. [benefits not seen with generic vitamin e]

Here is a study on normal humans, showing benefit with vitamin e –

Effect of Vitamin E on Function of Pituitary-Gonadal Axis in Male Rats and Human Subject
Fumio et al
Endocrinology, Japan. 29(3) 287-292 (1982)

Beta-sitosterol has been known to lower DHT, but not the amount found in Toco-8.

-Pp

 

[crazyfool405]

Low doses of hCG have a low conversion rate to estrogen. It’s not until you go over 250iu that you have to worry about excess estrogen from hCG.

If you wait till the end of the cycle to use hCG you will have to use higher doses, and an AI.

Yes, if you already take vitamin E, Toco-8 may have a lesser effect on testosterone production. But if you switched to Toco-8 you could benefit from the effects on LDL, atherosclerosis, blood pressure, ect. [benefits not seen with generic vitamin e]

Here is a study on normal humans, showing benefit with vitamin e –

Effect of Vitamin E on Function of Pituitary-Gonadal Axis in Male Rats and Human Subject
Fumio et al
Endocrinology, Japan. 29(3) 287-292 (1982)

Beta-sitosterol has been known to lower DHT, but not the amount found in Toco-8.

-Pp

yea i read that study....

and i also know that B-sitosterol can lower testosterone, but it dose inhibit the 5a reductase..

 

[dinoiii]

I don’t know who dinoiii is and I dont know what studies he is referring to, but that is some gross misinformation.

Ask any HRT patient who has tested his LH, FSH or T levels after starting tamoxifen treatment. Levels can double in less than a week.

-Pp

Yeah, that dinoiii doesn't know anything. What a joke.

And who carries the patient load here? You're kidding, right?

WOW! One of the reasons I steer clear from here - you'd like to talk misinformation?


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Low doses of hCG have a low conversion rate to estrogen. It’s not until you go over 250iu that you have to worry about excess estrogen from hCG.

If you wait till the end of the cycle to use hCG you will have to use higher doses, and an AI.

Yes, if you already take vitamin E, Toco-8 may have a lesser effect on testosterone production. But if you switched to Toco-8 you could benefit from the effects on LDL, atherosclerosis, blood pressure, ect. [benefits not seen with generic vitamin e]

Here is a study on normal humans, showing benefit with vitamin e –

Effect of Vitamin E on Function of Pituitary-Gonadal Axis in Male Rats and Human Subject
Fumio et al
Endocrinology, Japan. 29(3) 287-292 (1982)

Beta-sitosterol has been known to lower DHT, but not the amount found in Toco-8.

-Pp

Completely shocking this turns into an ad campaign.


D_

 

[Eric Potratz]

Yeah, that dinoiii doesn't know anything. What a joke.

And who carries the patient load here? You're kidding, right?

WOW! One of the reasons I steer clear from here - you'd like to talk misinformation?


D_

Dinoiii,

I don’t think this had anything to do with patient load.

You’re welcome to explain your comments on Clomid and Nolvadex. I’ve explained mine.

-Pp

 

[crazyfool405]

this is gunna be good,.....

both yall are knowledgeable, im excited to see where this goes...

 

[dinoiii]

Dinoiii,

I don’t think this had anything to do with patient load.

You’re welcome to explain your comments on Clomid and Nolvadex. I’ve explained mine.

-Pp

It can be whatever you suggest I suppose. You were very quick to cite the imminent quote I offered to be "misinformation" which is not true even in the least.

You continued on about patients of HRT - something I have a much more intimate familiarity with than I think you give credit as well.

But we'll take a look at that particular quote in context if you want:

(ok, so it actually bleeps out the citation - unsure what to do then...but if you are really interested you can find it before calling anything "misinformation" which is highly inappropriate)


Also, you are citing post-cycle timeframes which has many confounding offerings. In particular, the fact that a good percentage will have spontaneous recovery of HPTA function WITHOUT ANY pharmaceutic agent. Just putting Tamox on board "because it is said to be done" is not appropriate campaign.

Now - post-cyclers versus chronic HRT patients secondary to sheer aging share as many dissimilarities as they do the contrary. So, this is a bit inconsisitent an association to begin with comparing the two.



D_

 

[Kristofer68SS]

All I can say from personal experience is that nolva does bring the boys back but libido takes several weeks after cessation to return. Clomid also brings them back, notably faster, and the increase in libido is almost immediate. Without getting into the nuts and bolts of the endocrinology, each of them has very practical utility.

While it's true that AM tends to support the use of Nolva for pct, this is done for the practical aspect that it helps to prevent gyno while Clomid typically does not.

Toremifene is hands down, 10X better than Nolva at about 1/4 of it's toxicity. It brings back teste size and libido in 7-10 days.

Wow, someone else noted the subtle methods used with the Nolva wolves.