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Low Dose Deca for joint relief

Whacked

Whacked

Well-known member
Older bastard w a beat up body from 25 years of bb'ing.

Never used Deca due to my propensity for bloat.

How much could I use to get positive joint relief and avoid nasty moon face sides?

I'm very prone to bloat.

How much do people use for only this objective. Not looking for anabolic attribute.
 
hairygrandpa is using it now for joint relief.He can probably give you a solid answer
 
mostly an old wives tale from all I could tell. if it helps at all its due to the bloating part, or just due to anabolic effects. I was never able to find any concrete evidence (or experience anecdotal myself) on it
 
Whacked said:
Older bastard w a beat up body from 25 years of bb'ing.

Never used Deca due to my propensity for bloat.

How much could I use to get positive joint relief and avoid nasty moon face sides?

I'm very prone to bloat.

How much do people use for only this objective. Not looking for anabolic attribute.
Click to expand...

I'm a noob regarding AAS, but read on, it may help.
What I have read is, Deca at 100mg/week can relief joint issues. Problem is, a Deca only cycle may lower your libido to zero.
Another problem is, the long ester has a very late onset, you wont find relief until week 8-12 I guess.
To my knowledge (noob here,beware) too much test hinders the healing effect of Deca. Ideal would be a TRT (or slightly above) dosage of test with 100-300mg deca, kickstarted with NPP.

Deca is helping me tremendously with my knee joints, it still has no effect on my elbow tendons, here I use the "Armaid" with great results.
I kick started with NPP 100mg, the fast acting nandrolone, pinning it 2-3 times a week for a month, used 50mg TD trest too, to avoid Deca-D*ck, together with test-e 250mg/week and Deca at 200mg/week. By week 3 my knee pain was almost gone.
Now I'm on the long esters only, Knees acting up again, upped dosage of deca to 300mg/week.
I experienced recently a sort of E-rebound after cessation of trest and crashed my estrogen levels with too much adex, now my knees are in pain again.
I should have used NPP for at least 8 weeks instead of 4.

Summary: It could help, no idea if joints stay better after cessation of Deca, you'll need a test base, NPP would be faster, but lots of pinning
If I could start the cycle again, it would be:

NPP 300mg/week pinning every 2 days for 8 weeks
Test prop 150mg/week EOD for 8 weeks
Test-e 150mg/week for 18 weeks
Deca 200mg/week 16 weeks (If PCT, 18 weeks with TRT)
adex as needed
PCT (not in my case, I'm on TRT)
 
Ah, I'm prone to bloat too. No bloat at above mentioned dosage as by now.
 
I think for Deca to help you have to accept some of its sides. If you take something and the sides dissappear you will not have the joint help.

It's not really an answer to your question but I think you are better off trying Ostarine for joint help.
 
a couple of questions that need answering before answering.

are you on trt?
do you blast and cruise, or blast/pct?
are you wanting to add this to a blast?
 
HGP: Thanks for the elaborate reply. ;)
 
Bunshichi said:
I think for Deca to help you have to accept some of its sides. If you take something and the sides dissappear you will not have the joint help.

It's not really an answer to your question but I think you are better off trying Ostarine for joint help.
Click to expand...

Thanks and I can appreciate your sentiment regarding Ostarine due to all the posts but I have yet to see one shred of evidence that it will help with collagen rebuilding.
 
whiteboystomp said:
a couple of questions that need answering before answering.

are you on trt?
do you blast and cruise, or blast/pct?
are you wanting to add this to a blast?
Click to expand...

TRT
small blasts / mild cycles
No anabolic interest - only joint relief
 
Whacked said:
TRT
small blasts / mild cycles
No anabolic interest - only joint relief
Click to expand...

cool ... that said, stick with the trt dose and run the deca at 200mg/week.

not too start controversy - but I ALMOST totally disagree HGP. what he laid out was basically a blast (albeit a decent one because he is running the test lower and allowing the nandrolone to shine.) the real problems come into play when estro gets out of hand with test and 19nors. deca dick and prolactin issues are more a by product of estro.

for you, like I stated should greatly help you out. and it doesn't take deca 8-12 weeks to kick in. keep an eye out for estro issues since you are "bloat" prone. matter fact - if bloating is really an issue, just run npp from the get go. its the exact same compound as deca, just a different ester, thus in and out of your system faster. same dosage/week - but it will require more frequent pins to keep levels even. I'd try the deca first - fewer pins-less to mess with. if bloat up a little, increase your AI a tad, should be fine

and yes ... you can cruise on this setup. you're already on trt ... lol.

matter fact - carry this cruise setup into your mild blasts. I'm a huge fan of "building on a base". i.e run this setup continuously - then when you want to blast - that's when you throw in some prop and npp ON TOP of the long esters. shorter esters help keep the bloat in check, and when ready to come off - dump the short esters, they clear quickly, and there you are right back at your cruise.
 
whiteboystomp said:
cool ... that said, stick with the trt dose and run the deca at 200mg/week.

not too start controversy - but I ALMOST totally disagree HGP. what he laid out was basically a blast (albeit a decent one because he is running the test lower and allowing the nandrolone to shine.) the real problems come into play when estro gets out of hand with test and 19nors. deca dick and prolactin issues are more a by product of estro.

for you, like I stated should greatly help you out. and it doesn't take deca 8-12 weeks to kick in. keep an eye out for estro issues since you are "bloat" prone. matter fact - if bloating is really an issue, just run npp from the get go. its the exact same compound as deca, just a different ester, thus in and out of your system faster. same dosage/week - but it will require more frequent pins to keep levels even. I'd try the deca first - fewer pins-less to mess with. if bloat up a little, increase your AI a tad, should be fine

and yes ... you can cruise on this setup. you're already on trt ... lol.

matter fact - carry this cruise setup into your mild blasts. I'm a huge fan of "building on a base". i.e run this setup continuously - then when you want to blast - that's when you throw in some prop and npp ON TOP of the long esters. shorter esters help keep the bloat in check, and when ready to come off - dump the short esters, they clear quickly, and there you are right back at your cruise.
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I agree with your setup.
I wanted to do exactly that, but my test came in 250ml amps and I was not willing to mess around with open amps.
Your setup is about 100mg less Test-e and 100mg less Deca, if he is on 150mg test/week.
It's the beginning of the 6th week and the Deca still hasn't the relieving effect NPP had.
Would you incorporate NPP again -or wait it out?
 
hairygrandpa said:
I agree with your setup.
I wanted to do exactly that, but my test came in 250ml amps and I was not willing to mess around with open amps.
Your setup is about 100mg less Test-e and 100mg less Deca, if he is on 150mg test/week.
It's the beginning of the 6th week and the Deca still hasn't the relieving effect NPP had.
Would you incorporate NPP again -or wait it out?
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well ... I'm a year older than you, so trust me, I get what you're saying HGP... I do.

according to your post, with the npp in there, it looks like you were running 500/wk between the two. at that rate - yeah - should be feeling pretty damn good. now that its at 200/week deca only and feeling like not getting "any" relief --- is a problem. odds are -- you are getting benefits from the 200/wk - its just that you came down from 500 where you felt great, lol ....

unfortunately, sounds to be like you got some underlying physical issues that the drugs are only masking. the fact you have to run the deca/npp so high in order to get relief is a pretty good indicator something is NOT RIGHT. sorry to say that, brother - but it is what it is.

I wouldn't bump back up in dosages - "masking it" only allows you to push harder, maybe causing more damage. get it checked out, bro...
 
whiteboystomp said:
well ... I'm a year older than you, so trust me, I get what you're saying HGP... I do.

according to your post, with the npp in there, it looks like you were running 500/wk between the two. at that rate - yeah - should be feeling pretty damn good. now that its at 200/week deca only and feeling like not getting "any" relief --- is a problem. odds are -- you are getting benefits from the 200/wk - its just that you came down from 500 where you felt great, lol ....

unfortunately, sounds to be like you got some underlying physical issues that the drugs are only masking. the fact you have to run the deca/npp so high in order to get relief is a pretty good indicator something is NOT RIGHT. sorry to say that, brother - but it is what it is.

I wouldn't bump back up in dosages - "masking it" only allows you to push harder, maybe causing more damage. get it checked out, bro...
Click to expand...

Thank you for your input, I really appreciate it. I have "good" relief at 300mg now, but the NPP was like a miracle drug in comparison, hands down.
Will follow your advise on checking my old bones out, even though with our age, Instead of a cure I might only see the pity in the eyes of the doc.
LOL
 
hairygrandpa said:
Thank you for your input, I really appreciate it. I have "good" relief at 300mg now, but the NPP was like a miracle drug in comparison, hands down.
Will follow your advise on checking my old bones out, even though with our age, Instead of a cure I might only see the pity in the eyes of the doc.
LOL
Click to expand...


funny how compounds work ... even though its the same drug, just different ester - maybe the way its affecting plasma levels because of its short ester and more frequent injections helps you moreso than the deca.

you know its weird like that ... I just "feel" better on a prop/npp only run, than I do on a test e/c and deca run.

I'd try the switch - if you don't mind more pins.
 
As low as 100mgs/week will give you the desired effect. Oh and to address some misinformation posted in this thread. Deca DOES help joints and it isnt from the bloat or water retention at all, it actually possesses anti-inflammatory properties. The cool thing about deca for that purpose if your on trt is this. It has very little impact on your blood work (general health markers) and can be run long term without adverse effects. Also, even at a dose as low as that you will def in time see some anabolic effects from it as well.
 
StanleyG said:
As low as 100mgs/week will give you the desired effect. Oh and to address some misinformation posted in this thread. Deca DOES help joints and it isnt from the bloat or water retention at all, it actually possesses anti-inflammatory properties. The cool thing about deca for that purpose if your on trt is this. It has very little impact on your blood work (general health markers) and can be run long term without adverse effects. Also, even at a dose as low as that you will def in time see some anabolic effects from it as well.
Click to expand...

Please point to any scientific work showing it having anti inflammatory properties. You are correct, it is one of the mildest on other blood markers besides total test :)
 
Great input so far.

Thanks for all the great posts fellas.

1) Wouldn't it be naive to assume that sexual sides would not appear even at low doses of Deca? IMO; the addition of Deca (or any AAS for that matter) even at low doses will affect things.....

200mg Test vs 200mg Test + 100mg Deca seems like it would lead to two entirely different endocrinological effects upstream and downstream (with sexual effects being just one of these).

2) I've read some things about the Nandrolone family one time pertaining to kidney toxicities. Since my objective is to craft a long term plan, is there anything to this? It worries me b/c the kidneys are fragile/not resilient like the liver for example.

Thanks.
 
Whacked said:
Wouldn't it be naive to assume that sexual sides would not appear even at low doses of Deca? IMO; the addition of Deca (or any AAS for that matter) even at low doses will affect things......
Click to expand...

that is super individual so hard to tell. a little rise in prolactin may turn you into a flaccid flopper or it may raise your libido. One of the things I really hate about the hormonal systems, there isn't anything like an absolute, it's all pretty individual. Even worse, the downstream effects really may not show for 2-3 months of metabolites reaching levels. And by that point you've probably changed other things whether it be diet, workout, etc so it's so hard to pinpoint exact causes.
 
EasyEJL said:
that is super individual so hard to tell. a little rise in prolactin may turn you into a flaccid flopper or it may raise your libido. One of the things I really hate about the hormonal systems, there isn't anything like an absolute, it's all pretty individual. Even worse, the downstream effects really may not show for 2-3 months of metabolites reaching levels. And by that point you've probably changed other things whether it be diet, workout, etc so it's so hard to pinpoint exact causes.
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^^^^^^^ totally agree .... everyone is different. that said - there are some "fairly" general guidelines that can be used where the end result can be (and again I use the word loosely) "fairly" assumed. "Deca dick" is NOT a guaranteed by-product from using nandrolones. it is a by product from not keeping estrogen and/or prolactin in check. from my experience, and countless input from others - more people experience problems when they run higher (400+) test with 19nors. especially longer esters. when encountered with deca dick, most people RAISE their test thinking it will increase libido - whereas in fact, it usually has the opposite effect. more hormonal fluctuation - especially estro and prolactin.

personally - when running long esters I keep test low, no higher than 250/wk. and I can run the deca as high as I want without issues.
that said --- when running short esters (prop/npp) - I can go balls out on it. with no issues.

but, like Easy said -- everyone is different. there is no hard guideline to follow. you just have to try things and figure out what works for you.
 
EasyEJL said:
Please point to any scientific work showing it having anti inflammatory properties. You are correct, it is one of the mildest on other blood markers besides total test :)
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Courtesy of the late Nandi:

Androgens, Estrogens, and The Immune Response
I posted this reply recently on another board to the question "Do androgens suppress or stimulate the immune system"

It's really not quite correct to say androgens suppress or stimulate the immune system. It is a bit more complicated than that, not surprisingly.

Here is Immunology 101 in a nutshell. The immune system has two "arms of attack": the cell mediated arm and the humoral arm. The cell mediated arm, or cellular immunity, responds to general assaults on the body by sending out immune cells to do things like attack invading organisms, or degrade necrotic tissue, in a non specific manner. By non specific it is meant that the immune cells do not recognize the invader as a specific target with which they are familiar. Inflammation is an example of a cell mediated response. When you get a sliver or strain a muscle the body sends immune cells there to wall off the site, increase blood flow, remove damaged tissue, etc.

Humoral immunity involves B lymphocytes that secrete antibodies that bind to the target and allow immune cells to recognize the target immediately as an invader and launch an attack. When you are vaccinated for something, like smallpox, you are injected with a small inactive piece of the virus. This primes your body to make large numbers of B cell clones that, if ever challenged with smallpox for real, pump out antibodies that mark the virus for destruction by other cells. The big advantage of this system is that it is fast and efficient. The disadvantage is that it is very specific. The cellular response is not as efficient but it works against any invader, not just one for which there already exist primed clonal B cells.

There is an emerging model of how the sex steroids regulate the two arms of the immune system. It is thought that testosterone stimulates the humoral arm and suppresses the cellular arm. This paradigm arose from the study of autoimmune diseases which overwhelmingly plague women more than men. The majority of autoimmune diseases involve a cellular immune system gone wild. Since in men testosterone suppresses cellular immunity, men are much less likely to suffer from these diseases, like rheumatoid arthritis.

So when NFG123 mentioned that androgens are antiinflammatory, this is kind of what it means technically. Some steroids seem to have stronger effects than others. So when people say deca improves joints because it makes you hold water, that is nonsense. It is an antiinflmmatory because it suppresses cell mediated immunity, which controls inflammation. it has nothing to do with water.

Why is deca's reputation as an antiinflammatory better than testosterone's for example? My guess is the minimal aromatization and its progestogenic activity. If you link to the article below and open the graphic, you will see a couple of interesting things.

First, progesterone, like testosterone, stimulates humoral immunity (the TH2 mediated response in the graphic) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). So progesterone has antiinflammatory action.

Second, estrogen exerts a biphasic effect. At low doses it is proinflammatory, stimulating the TH1 arm of the immune system (cellular immunity) and inflammation.

Deca then works both as an androgen and a progestin to quell inflammation. Testosterone, by virtue of its aromatization to estrogen is an inferior antiinflammatory.
 
Most of the evidence that nandrolone products increase collagen production are actually related to all anabolic steroid compounds. Recovery and increased collagen production happen with most all anabolic steroids. I think I bigger part of how this helps is that it is highly anabolic and not overly androgenic. Typically higher androgenic properties also means a lot of strength increase. That means more overall damage done to the connective tissue so more recovery is required. As to where you are training more moderate weights and higher volume like what is typical for hypertrophy when on nandrolone you are not going to tear the joints up as much. So you might actually experience the heightened recovery of connective tissue due to different training intensity levels often employed. Just a thought process there since knowing all anabolic steroids increase collagen production.
 
StanleyG said:
Courtesy of the late Nandi:

Androgens, Estrogens, and The Immune Response
I posted this reply recently on another board to the question "Do androgens suppress or stimulate the immune system"

It's really not quite correct to say androgens suppress or stimulate the immune system. It is a bit more complicated than that, not surprisingly.

Here is Immunology 101 in a nutshell. The immune system has two "arms of attack": the cell mediated arm and the humoral arm. The cell mediated arm, or cellular immunity, responds to general assaults on the body by sending out immune cells to do things like attack invading organisms, or degrade necrotic tissue, in a non specific manner. By non specific it is meant that the immune cells do not recognize the invader as a specific target with which they are familiar. Inflammation is an example of a cell mediated response. When you get a sliver or strain a muscle the body sends immune cells there to wall off the site, increase blood flow, remove damaged tissue, etc.

Humoral immunity involves B lymphocytes that secrete antibodies that bind to the target and allow immune cells to recognize the target immediately as an invader and launch an attack. When you are vaccinated for something, like smallpox, you are injected with a small inactive piece of the virus. This primes your body to make large numbers of B cell clones that, if ever challenged with smallpox for real, pump out antibodies that mark the virus for destruction by other cells. The big advantage of this system is that it is fast and efficient. The disadvantage is that it is very specific. The cellular response is not as efficient but it works against any invader, not just one for which there already exist primed clonal B cells.

There is an emerging model of how the sex steroids regulate the two arms of the immune system. It is thought that testosterone stimulates the humoral arm and suppresses the cellular arm. This paradigm arose from the study of autoimmune diseases which overwhelmingly plague women more than men. The majority of autoimmune diseases involve a cellular immune system gone wild. Since in men testosterone suppresses cellular immunity, men are much less likely to suffer from these diseases, like rheumatoid arthritis.

So when NFG123 mentioned that androgens are antiinflammatory, this is kind of what it means technically. Some steroids seem to have stronger effects than others. So when people say deca improves joints because it makes you hold water, that is nonsense. It is an antiinflmmatory because it suppresses cell mediated immunity, which controls inflammation. it has nothing to do with water.

Why is deca's reputation as an antiinflammatory better than testosterone's for example? My guess is the minimal aromatization and its progestogenic activity. If you link to the article below and open the graphic, you will see a couple of interesting things.

First, progesterone, like testosterone, stimulates humoral immunity (the TH2 mediated response in the graphic) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). So progesterone has antiinflammatory action.

Second, estrogen exerts a biphasic effect. At low doses it is proinflammatory, stimulating the TH1 arm of the immune system (cellular immunity) and inflammation.

Deca then works both as an androgen and a progestin to quell inflammation. Testosterone, by virtue of its aromatization to estrogen is an inferior antiinflammatory.
Click to expand...

The bolded part explains a good bit. Cool thanks!
 
MrKleen73 said:
Most of the evidence that nandrolone products increase collagen production are actually related to all anabolic steroid compounds. Recovery and increased collagen production happen with most all anabolic steroids. I think I bigger part of how this helps is that it is highly anabolic and not overly androgenic. Typically higher androgenic properties also means a lot of strength increase. That means more overall damage done to the connective tissue so more recovery is required. As to where you are training more moderate weights and higher volume like what is typical for hypertrophy when on nandrolone you are not going to tear the joints up as much. So you might actually experience the heightened recovery of connective tissue due to different training intensity levels often employed. Just a thought process there since knowing all anabolic steroids increase collagen production.
Click to expand...

The connective tissue shouldn't need "recovery" time from training. Aches and pains from heavy lifting are common, but not to the level you're alluding. If you're experiencing that level of inflammation or damage, then there's an underlying issue and nandrolone would be, at best, akin to plugging the dam.

Collagen synthesis is also not the coverall that some think it is; winny has data showing increased collagen and anyone that has run it will tell you that it feels like the opposite.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Most of the evidence that nandrolone products increase collagen production are actually related to all anabolic steroid compounds. Recovery and increased collagen production happen with most all anabolic steroids. I think I bigger part of how this helps is that it is highly anabolic and not overly androgenic. Typically higher androgenic properties also means a lot of strength increase. That means more overall damage done to the connective tissue so more recovery is required. As to where you are training more moderate weights and higher volume like what is typical for hypertrophy when on nandrolone you are not going to tear the joints up as much. So you might actually experience the heightened recovery of connective tissue due to different training intensity levels often employed. Just a thought process there since knowing all anabolic steroids increase collagen production.
Click to expand...



agree and disagree ....

yes, aas across the board increase the recovery rate.

and I am with you on the high androgenic effect ... let's use anadrol for example.

the damage doesn't come because the drugs make you stronger - the "potential" damage comes from the fact that the muscles get stronger faster than the connectives. the connectives cannot keep up with such rapid muscle strength gains. you don't have a "heightened recovery" because of a change in work load - you are just enabling the connectives to strengthen at a closer rate to the muscle.

that said ... run a test/deca/drol cycle ... especially with the drol on the backend (which is a great ****in cycle, btw) ... and tell me your joints don't feel better than just running a test/drol cycle.
 
Rodja said:
The connective tissue shouldn't need "recovery" time from training. Aches and pains from heavy lifting are common, but not to the level you're alluding. If you're experiencing that level of inflammation or damage, then there's an underlying issue and nandrolone would be, at best, akin to plugging the dam.

Collagen synthesis is also not the coverall that some think it is; winny has data showing increased collagen and anyone that has run it will tell you that it feels like the opposite.
Click to expand...



in regards to the winny --- agree. my experience winny makes my joints creak and achy. that's why I do run npp with winny. it helps me tremendously. not to mention that winny and nandrolones work very synergistically.
 
Rodja said:
The connective tissue shouldn't need "recovery" time from training. Aches and pains from heavy lifting are common, but not to the level you're alluding. If you're experiencing that level of inflammation or damage, then there's an underlying issue and nandrolone would be, at best, akin to plugging the dam.

Collagen synthesis is also not the coverall that some think it is; winny has data showing increased collagen and anyone that has run it will tell you that it feels like the opposite.
Click to expand...

The winny thing is also explained in another write up i have from Nandi. Essentially an increase in collagen synthesis without a corresponding increase in cross link connectivity does nothing. In fact it can or at least may increase the likelihood of injury and / or discomfort..
 
StanleyG said:
The winny thing is also explained in another write up i have from Nandi. Essentially an increase in collagen synthesis without a corresponding increase in cross link connectivity does nothing. In fact it can or at least may increase the likelihood of injury and / or discomfort..
Click to expand...

You nailed it with the connectivity part.
 
Rodja said:
The connective tissue shouldn't need "recovery" time from training. Aches and pains from heavy lifting are common, but not to the level you're alluding. If you're experiencing that level of inflammation or damage, then there's an underlying issue and nandrolone would be, at best, akin to plugging the dam.

Collagen synthesis is also not the coverall that some think it is; winny has data showing increased collagen and anyone that has run it will tell you that it feels like the opposite.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your response. The connective tissue doesn't need recovery time? So there are no such things as overuse injuries? Overuse injuries develop because the connective tissue doesn't have time to recover in between bouts of repeated stress. Just like muscle tissue, connective tissue has to adapt, repair and become stronger after each bout when pressed into new territory. Then there is the fact that aging decreases the recovery rate of connective tissue due to lower levels of collagen production and Growth Hormone. Yes I know there are multiple types of collagen and only certain types are beneficial to connective tissue repair / adaptation. However none of this changes the fact that the connective tissues have to recover / adapt to the stresses applied to them. If they can not then wear and tear will begin and a degradation of the connective tissue will be the end result.

As far as there being an underlying reason, guy is over 40, and has been training hard for 25 years that is just one obvious underlying reason why his connective tissue may not able to keep up with the training intensity and or frequency at his current intensity. There are tons of possible factors as to why the recovery might not be optimal, that is very individual however the fact is the they still have to recover or degrade from being damaged more than they can repair. It is quite common to limit the frequency and volume of heavy lifting as people get older to adjust for the slower connective tissue recovery.

By the way I was not alluding to any high level of anything. I was simply making an observation as to why the anecdotal evidence seems to go either way with the nandrolone / connective tissue. Not sure where you thought I was going with that.

whiteboystomp said:
agree and disagree ....

yes, aas across the board increase the recovery rate.

and I am with you on the high androgenic effect ... let's use anadrol for example.

the damage doesn't come because the drugs make you stronger - the "potential" damage comes from the fact that the muscles get stronger faster than the connectives. the connectives cannot keep up with such rapid muscle strength gains. you don't have a "heightened recovery" because of a change in work load - you are just enabling the connectives to strengthen at a closer rate to the muscle.

that said ... run a test/deca/drol cycle ... especially with the drol on the backend (which is a great ****in cycle, btw) ... and tell me your joints don't feel better than just running a test/drol cycle.
Click to expand...
Seems like we agreed on everything there you just worded it a little different.
StanleyG said:
The winny thing is also explained in another write up i have from Nandi. Essentially an increase in collagen synthesis without a corresponding increase in cross link connectivity does nothing. In fact it can or at least may increase the likelihood of injury and / or discomfort..
Click to expand...
Yeah it lays the new fibers in a cross hatch or something like that. I remember reading that it makes the tissue more brittle even though it becomes thicker.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your response. The connective tissue doesn't need recovery time? So there are no such things as overuse injuries? Overuse injuries develop because the connective tissue doesn't have time to recover in between bouts of repeated stress. Just like muscle tissue, connective tissue has to adapt, repair and become stronger after each bout when pressed into new territory. Then there is the fact that aging decreases the recovery rate of connective tissue due to lower levels of collagen production and Growth Hormone. Yes I know there are multiple types of collagen and only certain types are beneficial to connective tissue repair / adaptation. However none of this changes the fact that the connective tissues have to recover / adapt to the stresses applied to them. If they can not then wear and tear will begin and a degradation of the connective tissue will be the end result.

As far as there being an underlying reason, guy is over 40, and has been training hard for 25 years that is just one obvious underlying reason why his connective tissue may not able to keep up with the training intensity and or frequency at his current intensity. There are tons of possible factors as to why the recovery might not be optimal, that is very individual however the fact is the they still have to recover or degrade from being damaged more than they can repair. It is quite common to limit the frequency and volume of heavy lifting as people get older to adjust for the slower connective tissue recovery.

By the way I was not alluding to any high level of anything. I was simply making an observation as to why the anecdotal evidence seems to go either way with the nandrolone / connective tissue. Not sure where you thought I was going with that.


Seems like we agreed on everything there you just worded it a little different.

Yeah it lays the new fibers in a cross hatch or something like that. I remember reading that it makes the tissue more brittle even though it becomes thicker.
Click to expand...

You're mixing up a few concepts and trying to piece them together. There is adaptation at the connective tissue level known as Davis Law that happens from resistance training. However, a muscular injury can happen simply because this adaptation doesn't occur at the same rate as strength gains. It's not that they need to recover; it's just the rates are not equal. This of course removes the assumption that the lift is being done optimally, but that's a different discussion.

Programming, especially competition level, changes with age, which is true, but it's more from the loss of work capacity due to the CNS not being able to recover than connective tissue issues. It's not uncommon for strength athletes to peak much later in life than the "normal" athletes out there. The exception being preexisting injuries. I don't mean some tendinitis; I mean joint reconstruction on some level.
 
Rodja said:
You're mixing up a few concepts and trying to piece them together. There is adaptation at the connective tissue level known as Davis Law that happens from resistance training. However, a muscular injury can happen simply because this adaptation doesn't occur at the same rate as strength gains. It's not that they need to recover; it's just the rates are not equal. This of course removes the assumption that the lift is being done optimally, but that's a different discussion.

Programming, especially competition level, changes with age, which is true, but it's more from the loss of work capacity due to the CNS not being able to recover than connective tissue issues. It's not uncommon for strength athletes to peak much later in life than the "normal" athletes out there. The exception being preexisting injuries. I don't mean some tendinitis; I mean joint reconstruction on some level.
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My tone may sound argumentative but this is in text and not much of a way to stop that from happening. I am not arguing so much as I am trying to see where you are coming from and will go read up on the Davis Law. Yet from looking at the end effect are we not really talking about the same thing? It seems if we replace the word recovery with the rate of adaptation, then wouldn't my big picture still be accurate? If the strength increases at a rate that the Davis law can not match with the rate of connective tissue adaptation then would this not result in additional stress, inflammation and possible degradation of the connective tissue over time if continuously applying more force than the connective tissue have adapted to be able to handle?

I may not have all of the mechanism right, but is the gist of it now the same in the end? An over-stressed connective tissue from repeatedly handling loads it has not been able to adapt to, due to connective tissues slower rate of adaptation.

I see the last part details some of the departure in thought process. I was also including tendinitis and tendinosis in this since he was talking about the pains involved. That makes a difference for sure if only talking about structural injuries or pain coming from them.

I myself have chronic tendinitis in my elbows, it returns easily and I have to get some myofascial release work on them a few times a year. So I work out more frequently but with less crushing volume per workout more successfully than I can a one body part a day thing where i do 25 sets. That tears me up!
 
I have often thought about trying Deca just to relieve joint pain. But I cheap and don't want to go to jail !!
 
What do you all make of this info that has been disseminated across the boards for years:

------------------------------

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.
 
MrKleen73 said:
My tone may sound argumentative but this is in text and not much of a way to stop that from happening. I am not arguing so much as I am trying to see where you are coming from and will go read up on the Davis Law. Yet from looking at the end effect are we not really talking about the same thing? It seems if we replace the word recovery with the rate of adaptation, then wouldn't my big picture still be accurate? If the strength increases at a rate that the Davis law can not match with the rate of connective tissue adaptation then would this not result in additional stress, inflammation and possible degradation of the connective tissue over time if continuously applying more force than the connective tissue have adapted to be able to handle?

I may not have all of the mechanism right, but is the gist of it now the same in the end? An over-stressed connective tissue from repeatedly handling loads it has not been able to adapt to, due to connective tissues slower rate of adaptation.

I see the last part details some of the departure in thought process. I was also including tendinitis and tendinosis in this since he was talking about the pains involved. That makes a difference for sure if only talking about structural injuries or pain coming from them.

I myself have chronic tendinitis in my elbows, it returns easily and I have to get some myofascial release work on them a few times a year. So I work out more frequently but with less crushing volume per workout more successfully than I can a one body part a day thing where i do 25 sets. That tears me up!
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. There simply could be CNS adaptations from certain AAS that happen virtually instantly (e.g. TNE, halo) that allow for greater force development. Greater CNS recruitment could result in tears without any warning. Sidenote: known a lot of dudes that lift some heavy weight and on gear yet I know only a couple of people that have really torn anything. The whole tendon rupture because of strength thing appears to be at least slightly overstated.

One thing that also needs to be said is that the tissues being stressed are virtual opposites. Tendons have horrible bloodflow to them and, unlike muscles, don't really have a rate of replenishment. This is why I say adapt and not recover because there's not really a recovery period possible. Davis Law does differ from Wolfe's Law (the bone equivalent) in that bones have active recovery and adaptations via osteoblasts and osteoclasts. The tendons don't have these types of cells and never really "repair" like a bone can.

You also alluded to something else with the elbow tendinitis: adhesions. These can alter the path of the muscle and cause tendinitis, but that's a very different story. When anything is done suboptimally from a biomechanical perspective, this is possible.
 
EasyEJL said:
mostly an old wives tale from all I could tell. if it helps at all its due to the bloating part, or just due to anabolic effects. I was never able to find any concrete evidence (or experience anecdotal myself) on it
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It does help with joints + tendons.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2233278
 
whiteboystomp said:
whaaaaa???

that added a lot to this thread .....
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It did. It's a scientific paper stating deca helps collagen synthesis that means tendon repair and joint repair. Anecdotal experience wise it's just kicking in and I can feel the benefits in my tendons and joints.
 
Rodja said:
Not necessarily. There simply could be CNS adaptations from certain AAS that happen virtually instantly (e.g. TNE, halo) that allow for greater force development. Greater CNS recruitment could result in tears without any warning. Sidenote: known a lot of dudes that lift some heavy weight and on gear yet I know only a couple of people that have really torn anything. The whole tendon rupture because of strength thing appears to be at least slightly overstated.

One thing that also needs to be said is that the tissues being stressed are virtual opposites. Tendons have horrible bloodflow to them and, unlike muscles, don't really have a rate of replenishment. This is why I say adapt and not recover because there's not really a recovery period possible. Davis Law does differ from Wolfe's Law (the bone equivalent) in that bones have active recovery and adaptations via osteoblasts and osteoclasts. The tendons don't have these types of cells and never really "repair" like a bone can.

You also alluded to something else with the elbow tendinitis: adhesions. These can alter the path of the muscle and cause tendinitis, but that's a very different story. When anything is done suboptimally from a biomechanical perspective, this is possible.
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Thanks, that makes sense now that you explained the different adaptive mechanisms. I was aware of the blood flow and much slower healing process in connective tissues due to it. However, I did not realize there was not a similar mechanism for recovery in the tendons as other tissues.
 
maybe0123 said:
It did. It's a scientific paper stating deca helps collagen synthesis that means tendon repair and joint repair. Anecdotal experience wise it's just kicking in and I can feel the benefits in my tendons and joints.
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I was talking about the quote I included in my post. the one where he says he's cheap and not going to jail...lol.
 
maybe0123 said:
It did. It's a scientific paper stating deca helps collagen synthesis that means tendon repair and joint repair. Anecdotal experience wise it's just kicking in and I can feel the benefits in my tendons and joints.
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No where in this thread did I disagree with the benefits of the deca - if anything, I have fully supported it based on my own experience. didn't feel the need to post up the scientific data as several of you already were/are.

I do like what "whacked" posted up regarding running test low and these others higher. I have been doing that for a long time and has worked well for me. test no higher than 250/wk - and let the others do their work and shine. albeit the compounds he mentioned run relatively low sides on their own - but it has also helped minimize a lot of sides I used to get when running every cycle with a ****load of test back in my early days.

don't get me wrong - every now and then I might run a higher dosage test only run ... lol. but as a general rule, I keep test at cruising altitude.
 
whiteboystomp said:
No where in this thread did I disagree with the benefits of the deca - if anything, I have fully supported it based on my own experience. didn't feel the need to post up the scientific data as several of you already were/are.

I do like what "whacked" posted up regarding running test low and these others higher. I have been doing that for a long time and has worked well for me. test no higher than 250/wk - and let the others do their work and shine. albeit the compounds he mentioned run relatively low sides on their own - but it has also helped minimize a lot of sides I used to get when running every cycle with a ****load of test back in my early days.

don't get me wrong - every now and then I might run a higher dosage test only run ... lol. but as a general rule, I keep test at cruising altitude.
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I thought u were the guy I replied to that's why I replied to u with that. Twas a mixup.
 
Great thread. Lots of solid input. Civil as well. I appreciate the maturity and intelligent insight provided this far......
 
Whacked said:
Great thread. Lots of solid input. Civil as well. I appreciate the maturity and intelligent insight provided this far......
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^^^^^^^ I'm with ya on that ... its cool when people come together and debate/kick things around civilly in the name of learning. good stuff!
 
Bunshichi said:
I think for Deca to help you have to accept some of its sides. If you take something and the sides dissappear you will not have the joint help.

It's not really an answer to your question but I think you are better off trying Ostarine for joint help.
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My reply ...

Whacked said:
Thanks and I can appreciate your sentiment regarding Ostarine due to all the posts but I have yet to see one shred of evidence that it will help with collagen rebuilding.
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Following up, anyone else have anything to add to this Ostarine theory. Anecdotally, this sentiment is wide spread across all the boards. Where does this come from!?!?
 
Whacked said:
Following up, anyone else have anything to add to this Ostarine theory. Anecdotally, this sentiment is wide spread across all the boards. Where does this come from!?!?
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Ill shoot it to you straight, I think its marketing hype and BS my friend, nothing more. Hate that crap.......
 
maybe0123 said:
It does help with joints + tendons.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2233278
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Cool, that one is actual science at least, not an opinion cobbled together of drawing conclusions in a row from something not directly related :D


I wish they had also used other steroids too, just to see whether it is a case of nandrolone particularly or whether any steroids do the same. Granted, at the miniscule dose they were taking, its almost impressive they even saw blood markers change.


And dammit, as bad as my knees have been getting now you have me thinking of trying it again
 
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