Lose fat and gain muscle.
- Thread starter Juicy88
- Start date
Young Gotti
Well-known member
diet is the most important aspect, find that out first and foremost
next lift heavy in a calorie deficit or as heavy as you can...and hiit cardio, i'm also a big fan of Compete intra workout during your cut
next lift heavy in a calorie deficit or as heavy as you can...and hiit cardio, i'm also a big fan of Compete intra workout during your cut
Wafflestomped
Member
I've had some success with carb cycling, but you have to be very diligent with tracking macros and monitoring process. If this is your first time cutting, I suggest just dieting to lose fat
Juicy88
New member
I have been bulking for a solid 6 months, within that 6 months I have gained almost 10kg. Unfortunately just like every person with an exceeded caloric intake I have gained excess fat. Essentially I'm looking to minimizing excess pudge while gaining lean muscle.
JD261985
Banned
I'm tired of people trying to give a glimmer of hope to the natural lifter that he may be able to shed pounds of fat and still put on muscle. If you JUST started lifting you may be able to do that for the first 6 months or so or if you're a teenager and started lifting when you were very lean you should have no problem slapping on pounds of muscle without gaining fat at all depending on diet and metabolism. If you aren't either of those and you aren't using steroids focus on putting muscle on with minimal fat gain. You are going to gain SOME fat it's inevitable. The less amount of fat you put on the easier it will be to shred it off. When it's time to shred off fat focus on maintaining or even gaining strength and maintaining muscle. Google Total Daily Energy Expenditure and basal metabolic rate. These two terms should lead you in the right direction. Oh and if you're diet isn't on point and you don't know how many calories and macros you're taking in you need to figure that out ASAP
Juicy88
New member
My trainer recommended a carb cycle to execute my current goal. Personally I still have to perfect my diet/macros, mostly gathering the background information so I'm good to go later. Are you able to provide an example of your carb cycle...would be greatly appreciated!
Mystere3
Well-known member
Juicy88
New member
Wealth of knowledge. Much appreciated!
Wafflestomped
Member
I completely agree with what JD mentioned earlier, it's extremely difficult for a natural lifter. When I carb cycled I pretty much went on a very slow cut where I may have gained very little LBM.
If you are really interested in carb cycling you should check out Lyle Mcdonald's forum and look into "every other day re feeds". I believe he is the guru of nutrition for a natural lifter and has many books on weight loss and protein intake that are very valuable. I've personally tried his rapid fat loss diet, UD2, and have read his protein book ( tons of awesome information in all of those on how metabolic processes work for fat loss and muscle building. )
I recommend educating yourself a bit more on basic nutrition and dial in your macros and your physique will change accordingly.
If you are really interested in carb cycling you should check out Lyle Mcdonald's forum and look into "every other day re feeds". I believe he is the guru of nutrition for a natural lifter and has many books on weight loss and protein intake that are very valuable. I've personally tried his rapid fat loss diet, UD2, and have read his protein book ( tons of awesome information in all of those on how metabolic processes work for fat loss and muscle building. )
I recommend educating yourself a bit more on basic nutrition and dial in your macros and your physique will change accordingly.
Juicy88
New member
17.9% BF
Wafflestomped
Member
you can run a rapid fat loss diet and shed a bunch of weight in a few weeks then try and gain more LBM
I personally like to cut quickly so I can go back to making gainz
FrankStuart
New member
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veaderko
Active member
If this is your starting point, I would make sure you do some research on how to carb cycle. carb cycling can be effective, but is also tedious if you are not use to tracking food and planing things out.
To start with I would focus on just make sure you udnerstand the basic knowledge of loosing body fat and not weight loss. If you are looking for something very rapid, you can look into the Anabolic Diet. I have used this on countless competitors and it works great. Keep in mind it is NOT a keto diet. It says that in the book itself. So when someone says that, just ignore them because they alone havent done the research. Again just another way to go about it.
To continue on your fat loss, I would look into HIIT after your workouts, starting 2 days a week.
If you decide to use supplements to aid you, stick to basics - Whey Protean, Creatine, multi-vitamin. When you get to the point of adding in a thermo (if you choose to get to that point) look into Dexaprine.
I have said in multiple threads that you need to look at all the tools I just listed as just that, tools. They are not to all be added in at once, and that is the order you should go about this. First diet, than cardio, than supplements. If you do them all at once, there is a very high probability that you will stall out and stop making progress.
Gutterpump
Banned
I find good results recomping (which is your goal) while carb cycling and doing a fullbody routine 3x per week, utilizing compound movements and barbell complexes.
When you want to accelerate fatloss, skip your carb up for a week, so you're in ketosis for 2 weeks. If you want more recomp effect, do weekly carb ups. Skipping the carb up for a week will really help shed fat though, all depends on your goals/progress. Lots of research to do.
When you want to accelerate fatloss, skip your carb up for a week, so you're in ketosis for 2 weeks. If you want more recomp effect, do weekly carb ups. Skipping the carb up for a week will really help shed fat though, all depends on your goals/progress. Lots of research to do.
fueledpassion
Well-known member
Toggle between cutting and bulking.
For cutting, IF diet will work. LG is a good one.
For bulking, low fat diet works well while not putting on excessive fat.
Toggle 4 weeks on each for a few months. Do some training/cardio while in fasted state, eat maintenance calories or slightly less. You'll lose weight. Get a fat burner or Ephedrine to help if needed.
Then bulk, for 4 weeks or so, eating above maintenance on training days and around maintenance on non-training days. You'll pack on a lb or two of muscle. You do this long enough and u can accrue several lbs of muscle while losing several lbs of fat.
Unless u were willing to use light doses of androgens, insulin and peptides, I wouldnt recommend tackling both at the same time - although its possible.
For cutting, IF diet will work. LG is a good one.
For bulking, low fat diet works well while not putting on excessive fat.
Toggle 4 weeks on each for a few months. Do some training/cardio while in fasted state, eat maintenance calories or slightly less. You'll lose weight. Get a fat burner or Ephedrine to help if needed.
Then bulk, for 4 weeks or so, eating above maintenance on training days and around maintenance on non-training days. You'll pack on a lb or two of muscle. You do this long enough and u can accrue several lbs of muscle while losing several lbs of fat.
Unless u were willing to use light doses of androgens, insulin and peptides, I wouldnt recommend tackling both at the same time - although its possible.
max d
Member
4 weeks of bulking then 4 weeks of cutting sounds like it would take a long time to see results in either direction. Personally I'd get cut and then slowly bulk for like 6-8 months making sure I don't get too fat (stay under 15 percent body fat). Also, fasted cardio is not needed for fat loss. Best form of cardio for fat loss is HIIT. Fasted cardio is old bro-science.
This is the best way to gain mass and and looked cut up in my opinion.
fueledpassion
Well-known member
No, it isnt bro science. If u eat a bunch then go do cardio, you arent using fatty acids. Insulin in the blood dictates this. Yes, u burn energy. No, u dont use fatty acids. U cant. Insulin doesnt allow it.
So yes, fasted cardio or fasted training, or even fasted HIIT (which is a form of cardio) does work well. I apply it now actually and it works quite well. There are several impressive studies showing such results, which I may find the time to post here later.
Lets not get into a pissing match here, but just understand that I have researched well beyond the walls of bro science in the tune of 1000+ hours regarding metabolism and how the human hormones interact with food and training. I'm not ignorant. I have no agenda. I have nothing to prove or gain by helping this young man. I wouldnt tell him something that:
I wouldnt do myself
That doesnt work
Has no science to support it
If u can have the self discipline to become efficient at bulking and cutting, learning how to do it in a lean fashion and learning to retain muscle while cutting, it is far superior than getting fat then overtaxing urself with a 16 week cut, in which u stall out at week 8 and have to resort to severe calorie cutting and lose a great deal of that mass u gained leaving u worse off than if u'd just aim to pack on 2-3lbs at a time and cut a few lbs of mass at a time.
It may not sound appealing to u because u havent tried it, or because ur not good enough at either to do them clean and efficient, which is ok. Most arent.
So yes, fasted cardio or fasted training, or even fasted HIIT (which is a form of cardio) does work well. I apply it now actually and it works quite well. There are several impressive studies showing such results, which I may find the time to post here later.
Lets not get into a pissing match here, but just understand that I have researched well beyond the walls of bro science in the tune of 1000+ hours regarding metabolism and how the human hormones interact with food and training. I'm not ignorant. I have no agenda. I have nothing to prove or gain by helping this young man. I wouldnt tell him something that:
I wouldnt do myself
That doesnt work
Has no science to support it
If u can have the self discipline to become efficient at bulking and cutting, learning how to do it in a lean fashion and learning to retain muscle while cutting, it is far superior than getting fat then overtaxing urself with a 16 week cut, in which u stall out at week 8 and have to resort to severe calorie cutting and lose a great deal of that mass u gained leaving u worse off than if u'd just aim to pack on 2-3lbs at a time and cut a few lbs of mass at a time.
It may not sound appealing to u because u havent tried it, or because ur not good enough at either to do them clean and efficient, which is ok. Most arent.
fueledpassion
Well-known member
A good study right here:
A "mini-fast with exercise" protocol for fat loss.*B Bahadori, MF McCarty, J Barroso-Aranda, JC Gustin, and F Contreras*Med Hypotheses, October 1, 2009; 73(4): 619-22.
And later this study suggests that incorporating HIIT in the 12-14hr fasted window may work even better. The results of this fast were on average 7kg of fat loss in 6 weeks or so. Dramatic to say the least.
Also should look up John Parillo and Lean Gains - two totally different style of trainers that both agree that extended periods of fasting coupled with cardio/training net greater results than without the fasted state.
A "mini-fast with exercise" protocol for fat loss.*B Bahadori, MF McCarty, J Barroso-Aranda, JC Gustin, and F Contreras*Med Hypotheses, October 1, 2009; 73(4): 619-22.
And later this study suggests that incorporating HIIT in the 12-14hr fasted window may work even better. The results of this fast were on average 7kg of fat loss in 6 weeks or so. Dramatic to say the least.
Also should look up John Parillo and Lean Gains - two totally different style of trainers that both agree that extended periods of fasting coupled with cardio/training net greater results than without the fasted state.
max d
Member
Ive done fasted cardio and weight training and yes I lost weight but a good amount of it was muscle. From your first post its obvious that you go the ph route but as a natural lifter fasted cardio is not the best route to go. Minus the supplement plugs, this article gives you all the info you need to lose fat: Invalid Link Removed. Slowly lose fat by slowly adjusting down your carbs and then when you good and cut up slowly adjust up by adding carbs back up. I tweak them 200 cals each time I stall out in either direction. Not trying to start a pissing match either but a lot of people on these forums make it way to complicated when it doesnt need to be for a person that just wants to look good at the pool.
Anyway, just my two cents. Hope everybody gets to their goals, however they get there, and can show off their beach muscles for the summer!
Anyway, just my two cents. Hope everybody gets to their goals, however they get there, and can show off their beach muscles for the summer!
JD261985
Banned
Yea when someone has become used to being chemically enhanced there's no point in trying to relay advice to the truly natural lifter. It's a whole different ball game. I would imagine it becomes difficult to remember what being natural even feels like after running tons if cycles, being on TRT, etc. (and no using clomid, nolva, etc is not being natural). Whenever I've trained in a fasted state I've lost muscle. I find that I lose fat and maintain muscle best WITHOUT stimulants. Sure it's a much slower process and it takes more work but the fat that you burn actually stays off. Cutting with hormones is much easier and I'm trying to get extremely lean right now. But I now understand that if I learn to build lean mass naturally and cut bodyfat while retaining muscle naturally I'll be way ahead of the game when it comes to cycling. I also don't want to cycle until I'm lean for health reasons
fueledpassion
Well-known member
Well I'm on 100mg of T right now and have been on this amount or similar amount for 12 months or so, not been on supraphysiological levels of T but last year did two random oral PH runs.
IF dieting works pretty well. Carb cutting also works, but there is no body of evidence that says its superior to others.
I was just giving helpful, practical advice on what I've learned and tried, even though most of the research I've done around this was nothing to do with androgen-related approaches.
IF dieting worked best to get my midsection off. Low fat, complex carb and high protein dieting worked best to keep muscle mass, for me.
That study I cited did both IF AND low fat dieting and provided impressive results for non-steroid using average joes that trained 1 hour a day.
Once again, I feel like no one wants to think outside the box and just fall into the common
bandwagon approach of low carb dieting, which works on some very well but not on others (such as myself). Give it a try - might as well because thats the only type of dieting this entire board is willing to consider.
IF dieting works pretty well. Carb cutting also works, but there is no body of evidence that says its superior to others.
I was just giving helpful, practical advice on what I've learned and tried, even though most of the research I've done around this was nothing to do with androgen-related approaches.
IF dieting worked best to get my midsection off. Low fat, complex carb and high protein dieting worked best to keep muscle mass, for me.
That study I cited did both IF AND low fat dieting and provided impressive results for non-steroid using average joes that trained 1 hour a day.
Once again, I feel like no one wants to think outside the box and just fall into the common
bandwagon approach of low carb dieting, which works on some very well but not on others (such as myself). Give it a try - might as well because thats the only type of dieting this entire board is willing to consider.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Ok...?
There are other studies showing positive effects of Leucine without carbs. Berardi has a much more comprehensive evaluation of IF and shows how effective it can be.
fueledpassion
Well-known member
EXACTLY. Leucine alone or maybe with a few other select aminos like Alanine, Glycine and Glutamine during fasting works well to retain muscle mass.
Obviously with PED's like GHRP's or GH u can really protect muscle mass during fasting very effectively, but that of course doesnt count for this conversation.
laneanders
Active member
I've personally found the best way to recomp to be eating very slightly above maintenance. ~50-100 calories over, it really equates to a lean slow bulk, but the expenditure of calories will vary slightly from day to day making some days actually cut days and others bulk days. (example: rest day you are actually at larger surplus, leg day you are at a caloric deficit, arm day you are at maintenance, etc.) It evens out more than most people realize.
fueledpassion
Well-known member
Thats believable, except I'd just target a 10% caloric surplus on training days and slightly below maintenance on non-training days.
Hockeyaus33
Active member
I think, scientifically speaking, It is literally impossible to gain muscle and burn fat at the same time. But I could be wrong..
JD261985
Banned
That's what I've been doing. It works so well I don't think I'll ever stop. For me personally there's no need to ever go over 250 cals above maintenance for a lean bulk. But ATM I'm doing a progressive cut. Not going to stop until I hit single digit body fat. Once I achieve that goal naturally I'm going to run a few cycles
Rodja
Board Sponsor
On paper, you're correct as you can't build and breakdown at the same time, but that's where hormones add in major variable, especially insulin.
Battossi
Member
On paper the body is still a fuster cluck of impossible things happening. That's the very reason we still don't know how it works completely. If you want to try to build muscle and lose fat ...try it. If you don't like then try something else. The beauty of bodybuilding.
Oscar
Well-known member
No just no, the only thing hcg is good for is bringing your balls back after a cycle and that's only with real hcg(the kind you inject) not the bs that you can buy at supplement stores.
Battossi
Member
Hcg as labeled in otc supplements is in fact not real hcg....kinda. they could potentially put like .001 % hcg in the batch and label it as hcg. From what I understand anywhos. Labeling it as a "homeopathic" product. What a sham. Poor business practices. Just like igf1 or igf2 , that stupid bovine product , deer antler, oral peptides, and hgh. Avoid those overpriced **** products at all cost. If you're really rushing bodybuilding and won't be patient go ahead and take prohormones. You won't build new muscle but the stuff will enlarge muscles and give you new nuculi which has potential to build new muscle once your "off" . Peptides are also a option and legal. Both have downsides.
The only downside to doing things slowly is patients and your ego.
EDIT:unless you're in a competitive sport. Listen and take what your coach says.
David147
Member
Losing weight by better nutrition (less carbs, more water, more green leafy veggies, and more protein) and aerobic exercise like running, swimming, and biking are your best bets to get your muscles to show off. To get your muscles to show more, when you work your muscles, use lighter weights and tons more reps to increase tone. But they won't show much until the weight comes off more. Best of luck, and don't get discouraged when you reach a plateau from time to time--just work through it.
BEAST73
Well-known member
I concur..
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
Well you both are seriously clueless if you follow these methods lmfao...
BEAST73
Well-known member
My body and my lifts speaks for itself.. Lmfao
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
So do tons of cardio and don't eat carbs? That's the best way to get your muscles to show more?
BEAST73
Well-known member
Less carbs..
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
So not just a caloric deficit but cutting carbs?
max d
Member
Did you really say do tons of reps to get tone? Not being a jerk but you sound like a womens instructor at planet fitness.
breezy11
Well-known member
I personally keep carbs as high as possible while cutting and don't change my training style (always train with intensity/like I'm trying to build muscle, regardless of goal). Cardio is kept minimal (or not done at all) at the start of my diet and increased as needed to keep progress moving. :think:
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
Yeah when I do keto I keep cardio to a minimum. Why do tons of reps again?