YoungBodyBuil
Banned
He did, i gave him a restart protocol a while ago.
Long Term Clomid Use
- Thread starter InItForGainz
- Start date
He did, i gave him a restart protocol a while ago.
InItForGainz
Well-known member
Is Xtane a good Exemestane product? It doesn't say "Aromasin" but it does list Exemestane.
Probably can't ask that but if you don't ask, you never know.
Probably can't ask that but if you don't ask, you never know.
bighulksmash
Legend
Can you tell me what a pop pop ret is ?
How many pinns in a ddr2 ram slot ?
What voltage is the bios chip in your motherboard ?
Iam a programmer not a biochemistry whiz.
From what i gather suppression of oestrogen tricks the body into making testosterone at a higher rate . Exe being an irreversible ai it dramatically raises testosterone and drops estrogen. Chemically I cant explain it . But in simple terms.
The agents used to block oestrogen biosynthesis as a mean to deplete circulating oestrogen levels, highlighted the importance of the enzyme aromatase as a rational target for the effective and selective treatment for some postmenopausal patients with hormone-dependent breast cancer
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
If the net effect of a compound is that it exhibits greater AI tendencies than 'supressive' ones, then technically it is beneficial as an AI. Doesnt mean it is ideal, of course.
InItForGainz
Well-known member
Clomid is the original Drug. The Exemestane/AI is to prevent Estro rebound afterwards.
Spurfy
Active member
Natco XTane is what I take every single night. I don't take any American manufactured pharmaceuticals.
Spurfy
Active member
You are correct -- this is exactly what happens...
1. E2 causes the strongest negative feedback inhibition of any other chemical. This is why clomid and tamoxifen raise testosterone levels in men -- they block hypothalamic E2 receptors, making the hypothalamus think that E2 levels are low, triggering GnRH release.
2. Lowering E2 with an AI decreases negative feedback to the hypothalamus, thus increasing GnRH production, triggering the pituitary to increase LH and FSH, increasing testosterone. This is the reason why an AI can never be suppressive: Anything, that lowers estrogen, even a compound that is androgenic itself or has androgenic metabolites, will increase GnRH and LH production, because E2 is the most suppressive chemical that there is.
3. You cannot ever decrease E2 without a simultaneous increase in GnRH/LH output (and therefore testosterone) unless you have a damaged hypothalamus or pituitary.
4. This is why the "formestane is suppressive" argument is nonsense -- its metabolite could be the most potent androgen there is, but since formestane lowers estrogen, this is meaningless, since estrogen itself is the most suppresive chemical that there is.
5. And that's why this study on formestane found: "An increase in androgen levels was observed that may have been due to [..] decreased feedback inhibition of gonadotrophin secretion by oestradiol." (1)
Formestane is the opposite of suppressive. That's not my opinion, that is the conclusion of researchers who published a study on formestane in men, in a major medical journal.
1. Cancer Chemother Pharmacol. 1990;27(1):67-71.
Spurfy
Active member
Oh my God! Someone who gets it!
Spurfy
Active member
Clomid should not cause any side effects. If it does, the dosage is too high. Anything higher than 12.5 mg per day is too high, and even that dose is pushing it.
GreekTheBrick
Active member
Up to 100mg and no sides at all, but generally I rarely get sides from drugs and compounds.
Now Im at 25mg ED but seeing people-with more knowledge than me-believe 12.5mg is better, I may give it a try starting from next week
JP11
New member
Yep it looks like a lot of people are having great results with a lower dosage. I was diagnosed with hypogonadism and my doc put me on 50mg. I was having some serious side effects, so he decided to lower it 25mg. I feel better now but still have headaches. I will probably lower it to 25mg EOD and see how it goes.
Spurfy
Active member
The main reason I recommend no more than 12.5 mg/day is because (other than the fact that 12.5 mg is nearly as effective as 50 mg at raising testosterone) clomid can, dose dependently, cause a long-term elevation in SHBG levels, such that even months after discontinuation, free testosterone levels can remain depressed.
At higher dosages (over 12.5 mg/day) there is also a risk of damage to Leydig cells and downregulation of pituitary GnRH receptors. I've seen guys on 50 mg of clomid per day in PCT with LH levels over 20. That's way, way, way too high and pituitary burnout is a very, very bad thing.
GreekTheBrick
Active member
I see your point. Would you say its sides on the Leydig cells are similar to sides from high HCG dose or its a totally different mechanism?
Spurfy
Active member
Same mechanism -- only difference is, with hCG it's "simulated LH" where with clomid it's actual LH.
bighulksmash
Legend
Yes
InItForGainz
Well-known member
Isn't the usual Prohormone PCT Clomid protocol 50/50/25/25/12.5?
Spurfy
Active member
Yes, and this is unnecessarily high. 12.5 mg ED start to finish would do exactly the same thing with less side effects and no long-term risks.
Also, an AI (preferably exemestane/Aromasin) should always be used with clomid and for at least 30 days after stopping clomid. Clomid takes around a month to completely clear your system.
bighulksmash
Legend
Many people try to jump start it but even 6.75 or 12.50 would suffice . I , myself run 100 50 25 12.5 and continue 12.5 if needed. Lol dammit
InItForGainz
Well-known member
So On The Drug Side Of Things for PCT purposes the best plan would be
Clomid 50/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25
Exemestane 6.25 Every Other Day, As Of From The 2nd Week Into PCT?
Clomid 50/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25
Exemestane 6.25 Every Other Day, As Of From The 2nd Week Into PCT?
Spurfy
Active member
My "best plan" would be 12.5 of clomid ED for the whole PCT, with low-dose exemestane (dosage is highly individually variable) for the whole PCT and extending for several (6-8) weeks after PCT. I was shooting hCG, 333 E3D the whole time, so my nuts weren't shutdown at all -- 21 days of clomid is more than sufficient.
This is the PCT I'm on right now, after stopping 18 months of "TRT": 21 days of clomid @ 12.5 mg ED w/ 25 mg of exemestane ED, followed by 25 mg of exemestane ED (I'm on week 5 total, been off clomid for a few weeks and feeling great). I'll continue the exemestane for another 2-3 weeks then taper off. I'm also taking ashwaganda extract to increase natural testosterone production and to control cortisol and will shortly be adding fenugreek for libido -- I will continue the herbs until August and then get bloods. I expect my T levels to be around 700, which is my normal level.
I'm also on rhGH, 2 iu/day, which I've been on for the past 2 weeks. I have to say, even at this low dosage I'm seeing more positive results (with zero side effects) than when I was on T @ 300 per week.
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
50-50-25-25 is obviously the standard mantra with clomid PCT. From memory, both Scally and Llewyln recommend PCT doses of 50mg+ for clomid.
What evidence might you be able to offer up here in support of 12.5mg doses being sufficient for our purposes?
GreekTheBrick
Active member
Isnt hCG suppressive?
Spurfy
Active member
FWIW, Crisler and Shippen (two of the best) both advocate for much lower doses of clomid, and I've seen bloodwork from a number of guys on 12.5 ED or EOD with T levels in the 800+ range with E2 around 25-35 and SHBG at normal levels. I have yet to see bloodwork from a man on 12.5 ED or EOD where total T isn't above 600 and I have yet to see bloodwork from a guy on a much higher dose of clomid that doesn't have significantly elevated E2 and SHBG, and/or LH that's over range.
So, I don't have any published studies, just anecdotal evidence. My recovery from 18 months "on" has been a breeze, and I've studied the labs of at least a dozen guys on lower doses of clomid and found simialr results. BTW, I credit exemestane tremendously -- the clomid gets you going but the exemestane is what keeps you there.
Spurfy
Active member
It is. I'm on hGH.
I took hCG the entire time I was injecting to maintain testicular function.
bighulksmash
Legend
I ran 4 months of clomid at 50mgs a day
Pre pct bloods ng/dl
43 test
12 estrogen
Lh 0 fsh 0
Post clomid bloods also in ng/dl
821 test
189 estrogen
Lh 9.2
Fsh 7.3 i think ill have to re check on the lh and fsh .
Point is i wonder if I would have ran it lower dose what my estrogen would have been at thee end.
GreekTheBrick
Active member
Yes, I did too. If I may ask how did you came up with 333dose? I noticed some lethargy on cycle when pin 600iu hCG splitted in 3doses/week and when lowered at 450iu splitted in 3doses/week I felt great. Does it make any sense to you?
PS. Wasnt an estrogen issue as I had formestane all the time to watch my back
PS. Wasnt an estrogen issue as I had formestane all the time to watch my back
Spurfy
Active member
My E2 was in the 60s with clomid 12.5 ED when I ran it several years ago -- that was without exemestane. I also suffered a crash after running clomid where I came off and my T plummeted. I don't believe clomid should ever be run without exemestane -- I 100% believe that exemestane prevents the long-term elevations in SHBG and the post-clomid T-crash that clomid-only can (and often does) cause.
The z isomer (the estrogenic one) of clomid has a significantly longer half-life than the e isomer (the anti-estrogenic one), and after a week off clomid all you have floating around for another month is the estrogenic z isomer. Not good. Exemestane is mandatory.
GreekTheBrick
Active member
Great results man. No AI at all?
Spurfy
Active member
Tinkering -- that and I would get bottles of 10,000 iu and would reconstitute w/ 3 mL bac water. Even at 333 iu E3D, I still had transient E2 symptoms, but that was the dose that kept the boys happy. Adding proviron 25-50 mg/day helped tremendously, but I honestly hate that stuff -- it makes me really inhuman, unfeeling, cold, distant -- so I dropped it. I'd rather have balls the size of raisins than not be able to get any joy from playing with my son.
AIs don't control intratesticular aromatization, which hCG massively increases. It was almost definitely an E2 issue that was responsible for your lethargy if you backed off the hCG dose and it improved.
bighulksmash
Legend
Nope
GreekTheBrick
Active member
Good info here, thanks. Now I got it. Definitely more is not always best
PS. I would choose the same thing between my son and everything else in the world.
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
Interesting, are you taking the ashwa in conjunction with clomid-exem? You see, my crude layman brain would be like "why? Isnt that tantamount to saying the clomid is not capable of increasing test on its own?"
That is, the ashwagandha would be "better" post-PCT, once clomid dosing has ceased?
Spurfy
Active member
I started the ashwaganda immediately after finishing clomid (I took clomid for 21 days @ 12.5 mg/day), so now I'm taking ash and exemestane. The purpose of the ash is to carry the torch from clomid (ie, ensuring that the HPG-axis keeps going) and to regulate cortisol -- ash will lower high cortisol and raise low cortisol. Ash is also fantastic for sleep and overall mood.
I was "on" for 18 months, so my PCT is going to be around 3 months, and I have no interest in taking clomid for even a day more than I have to. I have serious concerns about its carcinogenicty and effects on liver/gallbladder and thyroid function, but it's a necessary evil, because there's no better way to start the HPG-axis (except maybe triptorelin).
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I love ashwagandha. It has so many benefits; cortisol control, stress/anxiety reduction, cognition, strength, body composition, cholesterol, etc.
Are you using KSM-66, Sensoril, or something else, and what dose? You probably already know, but you really want to make sure the withanolide content is standardized according to HPLC, not gravimetry or titration, as the latter two will give much higher readings than HPLC (KSM, Sensoril, and a few other quality extracts use HPLC).
Spurfy
Active member
Agreed. Its the best all-around herb I've ever used.
I'm using Gaia Ashwagandha and will be adding NOW brand. I'm not super concerned about dosages or exact withanolide content -- I generally take 6 times whatever the suggested dosage is of any herb from a quality brand. I'm sure there are more potent brands than what I use, but I'm happy with the results and these brands I can get cheaply from Amazon.
Is there a specific brand that you recommend most?
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Gravimetry or titration (what most extracts use) will give a reading 2.5-3x higher than the content according to HPLC. So a common 2.5% extract may only be 1% HPLC. KSM-66 is 5% HPLC, so you'd basically need 5x the dose of the common extract to get the same true withanolide content. Sensoril is also quality, and is 8-10% (I've seen both). I personally use Jarrow KSM-66. It's 300mg per cap, and I take 2 caps per day. That's the dose used in many studies for many benefits (30mg/day withanolides). I've seen studies notice benefits with as low as 9mg/day withanolides, and as high as 100mg/day withanolides, but 30mg is a good dose IMO. At that dose, you can get it for less than $6/month.
Spurfy
Active member
I'll give one of those a shot next go round.
criticalbench
Legend
Clomid may boost sperm, but it doesn't imo, correct the issues men complain about associated with low test.
Cycloman
Member
Thanks for this brother. I just posted in another thread - seeking input on pct from being shutdown from SARMs. (Test was 90). I'm 50 so pct results may be different than for a younger guy but you really explained the protocol well. Thanks so much!!
Spurfy
Active member
This is generally true. Unfortunately, clomid is often incorrectly prescribed, usually at dosages that are way too high, and without an AI. When clomid is given at a dosage not to excees 12.5 mg/day (preferably EOD), and with exemestane, the results are often much different.
Spurfy
Active member
Both.
AI (preferably exemestane/Aromasin) should be run during clomid and for 6 weeks after stopping clomid to allow time for the z isomer to clear.
bighulksmash
Legend
What would be a baseline to expect from your dosage plan?
Since my dosage plan of 100 50 25 25 brought my estrogen higher than a french whøre . I guess im looking to get my e2 down to between 20 and 40 ng dl test would be great around 800 ng dl.
bighulksmash
Legend
I also have pharma exe and clomid btw no rc's.
Spurfy
Active member
Clomid can elevate LH way above range, and this greatly increases intratesticular aromatization, which cannot be controlled with an AI. So, the "best" dose of clomid is one that keeps LH right in the middle of range -- I would say 6 is optimal. Clomid itself also increases SHBG production in the liver, and there's some evidence that synthetic estrogens (including xenoestrogens, like clomid) can cause long-term elevations in SHBG which persist even after stopping. (1)
Obviously, I can't know exactly what 12.5 mg of clomid ED or EOD would do to your total T numbers, especially if you're adding exemestane, but if your balls work then there's really no reason why 800 total test and E2 around 40 isn't achievable. The other reason why exemestane is so important with clomid is that controlling aromatase will always give a higher level of total T, which allows a lower dose of clomid. The clomid should be used solely to get the HPG-axis working, raising testosterone is accomplished via aromatase inhibition. With E2 levels over 100, it becomes obvious that controlling aromatase will result in much higher levels of T.
1. J Sex Med. 2006 Jan;3(1):104-13.
bighulksmash
Legend
Wow great explanation. Y didn't u become a urologist or endo for fukks sake ?
Spurfy
Active member
I like research. I can basically do whatever I want (within reason) and don't have to take orders from people who are significantly less intelligent (ie, MDs, insurance companies, hospital administrators, etc). I also get paid for reading research and just sitting in my office thinking about stuff -- I actually get paid to learn more. Pretty sweet deal.
I also get to dabble in whatever recreational substances I care to use, without fear of a career-ending drug test.
P.S., ketamine is awesome.
bighulksmash
Legend
Haha no comments !