Long Term Clomid Use

Spurfy said:
My "best plan" would be 12.5 of clomid ED for the whole PCT, with low-dose exemestane (dosage is highly individually variable) for the whole PCT and extending for several (6-8) weeks after PCT. I was shooting hCG, 333 E3D the whole time, so my nuts weren't shutdown at all -- 21 days of clomid is more than sufficient.

This is the PCT I'm on right now, after stopping 18 months of "TRT": 21 days of clomid @ 12.5 mg ED w/ 25 mg of exemestane ED, followed by 25 mg of exemestane ED (I'm on week 5 total, been off clomid for a few weeks and feeling great). I'll continue the exemestane for another 2-3 weeks then taper off. I'm also taking ashwaganda extract to increase natural testosterone production and to control cortisol and will shortly be adding fenugreek for libido -- I will continue the herbs until August and then get bloods. I expect my T levels to be around 700, which is my normal level.

I'm also on rhGH, 2 iu/day, which I've been on for the past 2 weeks. I have to say, even at this low dosage I'm seeing more positive results (with zero side effects) than when I was on T @ 300 per week.
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So for an 8 week prohormone run you'd suggest an 8-12 week PCT inclusion of Exemestane?
Clomid ED at 50/25/12.5/12.5/6.25
Exemestane EOD at 6.25 as of from the first day of Clomid/PCT?
 
Spurfy said:
FWIW, Crisler and Shippen (two of the best) both advocate for much lower doses of clomid, and I've seen bloodwork from a number of guys on 12.5 ED or EOD with T levels in the 800+ range with E2 around 25-35 and SHBG at normal levels. I have yet to see bloodwork from a man on 12.5 ED or EOD where total T isn't above 600 and I have yet to see bloodwork from a guy on a much higher dose of clomid that doesn't have significantly elevated E2 and SHBG, and/or LH that's over range.

So, I don't have any published studies, just anecdotal evidence. My recovery from 18 months "on" has been a breeze, and I've studied the labs of at least a dozen guys on lower doses of clomid and found simialr results. BTW, I credit exemestane tremendously -- the clomid gets you going but the exemestane is what keeps you there.
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I've started with 50 mg ED, and was feeling great in the first week. Then I started feeling terrible, 0 libido, headaches, mood swings. Then I lowered to 25 mg ED, and I got some of my libido back. Now I'm on 25mg EOD, but I'm considering on taking 12.5 mg EOD.
 
Yesterday I got my results back and my Testosterone jumped from 230 to 520 in 3 months. I'm taking 12.5 ED. However, I don't feel any libido improvement or any other improvement on my body. The numbers look good though. I have been working out really hard for the past months and no significant gains. Anyone out there with similar experience?
 
Good to hear your levels are improving, strange to hear that your not seeing any body composition improvements with a 290ng increase though.
How are the sides, if any?
 
No sides. I was having a lot of headaches when I was taking 25mg ED. But havent had any since I started taking 12.5mg ED.
 
"No significant gains"?
I'd have thought that much of an increase would have yielded some improvement over original baseline gains. How's your diet?
 
Spurfy said:
Clomid can elevate LH way above range, and this greatly increases intratesticular aromatization, which cannot be controlled with an AI. So, the "best" dose of clomid is one that keeps LH right in the middle of range -- I would say 6 is optimal. Clomid itself also increases SHBG production in the liver, and there's some evidence that synthetic estrogens (including xenoestrogens, like clomid) can cause long-term elevations in SHBG which persist even after stopping. (1)

Obviously, I can't know exactly what 12.5 mg of clomid ED or EOD would do to your total T numbers, especially if you're adding exemestane, but if your balls work then there's really no reason why 800 total test and E2 around 40 isn't achievable. The other reason why exemestane is so important with clomid is that controlling aromatase will always give a higher level of total T, which allows a lower dose of clomid. The clomid should be used solely to get the HPG-axis working, raising testosterone is accomplished via aromatase inhibition. With E2 levels over 100, it becomes obvious that controlling aromatase will result in much higher levels of T.
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Great info. I'm curious if Nolvadex would have similar results.
 
JP11 said:
___________

I've started with 50 mg ED, and was feeling great in the first week. Then I started feeling terrible, 0 libido, headaches, mood swings. Then I lowered to 25 mg ED, and I got some of my libido back. Now I'm on 25mg EOD, but I'm considering on taking 12.5 mg EOD.
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Serms have a tendency to kill libido. Nothing is wrong
 
Spurfy said:
I like research. I can basically do whatever I want (within reason) and don't have to take orders from people who are significantly less intelligent (ie, MDs, insurance companies, hospital administrators, etc). I also get paid for reading research and just sitting in my office thinking about stuff -- I actually get paid to learn more. Pretty sweet deal.

I also get to dabble in whatever recreational substances I care to use, without fear of a career-ending drug test.

P.S., ketamine is awesome.
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bighulksmash said:
Haha no comments !
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great advice but i love the comment-"don't have to take orders from people who are significantly less intelligent "

make sure you desk is clean before you leave-

it is clean, your just to stupid to see it
 
Cycloman said:
Great info. I'm curious if Nolvadex would have similar results.
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Was wondering the same, I have low T and want to run it for 6 weeks to hopefully kickstart my natural production.
Saw some studies where nolvadex had the greatest impact on T levels, not sure if I should take an AI with it.
 
Sieg said:
Was wondering the same, I have low T and want to run it for 6 weeks to hopefully kickstart my natural production.
Saw some studies where nolvadex had the greatest impact on T levels, not sure if I should take an AI with it.
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I'd run Clomid over Nolva for increasing Test Levels. Clomid is tried, tested and trusted for that exact purpose. Some endo doctors will actually prescribe Clomid for low T before they put people on TRT.
 
Sieg said:
Was wondering the same, I have low T and want to run it for 6 weeks to hopefully kickstart my natural production.
Saw some studies where nolvadex had the greatest impact on T levels, not sure if I should take an AI with it.
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Well with clomid after use didn't go well without Al... Maybe good if with AL
 
Does anybody here have any experience or thoughts on a low dosage of Clomid combined with HCG? Thanks
 
InItForGainz said:
We all know that Clomid is usually the number one Go-To SERM for PCT with the popular 50/50/25/25, but is there any research regarding long term use?
In short Clomid works to both block Estrogen Receptors and to increase testosterone production through the LH pathway. Considering the "possible" side effects of HRT/TRT wouldn't a regular dose of Clomid be a safer option for men with naturally low testosterone?
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I've seen a study where they used it for close to 18 months.... the doses were 25 mg-50 mg EOD

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Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hypogonadal men.
Katz DJ1, Nabulsi O, Tal R, Mulhall JP.
Author information
Abstract
Study Type - Therapy (case series) Level of Evidence 4. What's known on the subject? and What does the study add? Hypogonadism is a prevalent problem, increasing in frequency as men age. It is most commonly treated by testosterone supplementation therapy but in younger patients this can lead to testicular atrophy with subsequent exogenous testosterone dependency and may impair spermatogenesis. Clomiphene citrate (CC) may be used as an alternative treatment in these patients with hypogonadism when maintenance of fertility is desired. This study shows that CC is a safe and efficacious drug to use as an alternative to exogenous testosterone. Not only have we validated previous findings of other papers but have proven our findings over a much longer period (mean duration of treatment 19 months). This prospective study is the largest to date assessing both the objective hormone response to CC therapy as well as the subjective response based on a validated questionnaire.
OBJECTIVE:
• To prospectively assess the andrological outcomes of long-term clomiphene citrate (CC) treatment in hypogonadal men.
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
• We prospectively evaluated 86 men with hypogonadism (HG) as confirmed by two consecutive early morning testosterone measurements <300 ng/dL. • The cohort included all men with HG presenting to our clinic between 2002 and 2006 who, after an informed discussion, elected to have CC therapy. CC was commenced at 25 mg every other day and titrated to 50 mg every other day. The target testosterone level was 550 ± 50 ng/dL. • Testosterone (free and total), sex hormone binding globulin, oestradiol, luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone were measured at baseline and during treatment on all patients. Once the desired testosterone level was achieved, testosterone/gonadotropin levels were measured twice per year. • To assess subjective response to treatment, the androgen deficiency in aging males (ADAM) questionnaire was administered before treatment and during follow-up.
RESULTS:
• Patients' mean (standard deviation [sd]; range) age was 29 (3; 22-37) years. Infertility was the most common reason (64%) for seeking treatment. The mean (sd) duration of CC treatment was 19 (14) months. • At the last evaluation, 70% of men were using 25 mg CC every other day, and the remainder were using 50 mg every other day. • All mean testosterone and gonadotropin measurements significantly increased during treatment. • Subjectively, there was an improvement in all questions (except loss of height) on the ADAM questionnaire. More than half the patients had an improvement in at least three symptoms. • There were no major side effects recorded and the presence of a varicocele did not have an impact on the response to CC.
CONCLUSION:
• Long-term follow-up of CC treatment for HG shows that it appears to be an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation in men wishing to preserve their fertility.
 
JP11 said:
___________

I've started with 50 mg ED, and was feeling great in the first week. Then I started feeling terrible, 0 libido, headaches, mood swings. Then I lowered to 25 mg ED, and I got some of my libido back. Now I'm on 25mg EOD, but I'm considering on taking 12.5 mg EOD.
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50 mg/day is too high for most guys.

if you get a chance, take a look at some of the clinical studies on clomid.... nearly all of them use 25 mg/day, and it's not uncommon to see guys double their total testosterone on that.

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Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.
Shabsigh A1, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Author information
Abstract
AIM:
Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio.
METHODS:
Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.
RESULTS:
The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.
CONCLUSIONS:
Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

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These studies are really interesting. Considering the price, difficulty in sourcing, legal issues and potential health issues associated with using AASs, Clomid seems like a much safer and just as effective precursor anabolic compound.
 
Killcure666 said:
Would elevated T levels from clomid actually lead to significant gains though?
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in my experience, no.

I was low about a year ago, and took clomid (25 mg/ed) to bring my testosterone levels up as I got back into working out. while I did lose a bit of fat, I did not drop half of the weight I gained (due to an injury).

while I think clomid is great to boost low test levels, I think you need to be much higher to see real gains.... pretty much every study seems to indicate that, as well.

I can't post the link yet, but if you Google "Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men," you'll see an excellent example of what happens with various testosterone levels.
 
Is it possible to keep some of the high test from clomid after usage of 3+ months on 25mg daily?

Btw anyone have joint problems in clomid?
 
So doc put me in clomid 25mg daily but I said to that I'll run higher he said that the side effects are not worth 50mg or higher.

Can clomid 50mg eye side effect be countered by ginkgo biloba,zeaxanthin, and lutin herbs?
 
619sss said:
So doc put me in clomid 25mg daily but I said to that I'll run higher he said that the side effects are not worth 50mg or higher.

Can clomid 50mg eye side effect be countered by ginkgo biloba,zeaxanthin, and lutin herbs?
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I have never found anything to counter the effects of the eye issues on Clomid. The doctor had no answer when I asked the same question he said he didn't know. He also dosed me at 50 milligrams a day.
 
619sss said:
So doc put me in clomid 25mg daily but I said to that I'll run higher he said that the side effects are not worth 50mg or higher.

Can clomid 50mg eye side effect be countered by ginkgo biloba,zeaxanthin, and lutin herbs?
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I personally think 50mg ED is too much. I've started with 50mg and had a lot of sides.

Also there are some studies showing that lower dosages have the same results
 
bighulksmash said:
I have never found anything to counter the effects of the eye issues on Clomid. The doctor had no answer when I asked the same question he said he didn't know. He also dosed me at 50 milligrams a day.
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Have you tried those? It's my second day of using the herbs

I'll run 50mg, would it be wrong to run 100mg ?
 
619sss said:
Have you tried those? It's my second day of using the herbs

I'll run 50mg, would it be wrong to run 100mg ?
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100 is way too much . Sometimes I run it at 100mgs for a week after a 20 week test cycle . I catch phosphorus blast on here for it all the time
 
Sometimes I feel that I'm a dream suddenly, that feeling when your mind is out of your body, is that normal?
 
I believe 25ED or EOD for restarting is a good dose. For aggressive PCT 50ED no more than a week. Thats why I also recommend Nolva, to work synergistically so as not use Clomid at high doses.

I definitely felt better on 25EOD than 25ED or 50ED on clomid. I had no visual sides but was feeling kinda tired and off. Also had run it up to 100ED which put me down
 
619sss said:
So doc put me in clomid 25mg daily but I said to that I'll run higher he said that the side effects are not worth 50mg or higher.

Can clomid 50mg eye side effect be countered by ginkgo biloba,zeaxanthin, and lutin herbs?
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why are you planning on running it higher? if 25 mg/day works, then there's no reason to go higher, especially if side effects are an issue....

FWIW, I had no eye issues at 25 mg/day.
 
I'm not reading through this whole thing, but I'll throw in my 2 cents FWIW. I've been on clomid for TRT for about 3 years. Doc chose clomid so I could maintain fertility. Now that my wife and I are done having kids, he is switching me to testosterone pellets later this month. Before starting clomid, my test was consistently between 190-250, so after about 3 months of testing I was diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism. I started on 25mg EOD which brought my test up to the 400s. When I switched to 50mg EOD my test shot up into the 700-800s and stayed there. I've not heard of a dosing higher than 50mg EOD for TRT. I never had any noticeable visual disturbances. In terms of gains, this is not like taking anabolics. It makes you feel normal again. Maybe a little strength increase, and I could be a bit more lax on my diet without gaining fat, but nothing like when I ran trest (ran a cycle after we were done having kids and I discontinued my clomid use while on cycle).

**EDIT: I've been on Clomid for about 4+ years...time flies. Started right before I turned 29 and I just turned 33
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Nice one man^. Were you having to use an AI as well to control e2 or did bloods show that was unnecessary?
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Yea, I kick myself for not being more proactive, but I mentioned it once and he said it wouldn't been an issue. He never tested for e2 and never placed me on an AI. I am definitely going to voice up when I get the pellets implanted. He's with the Cleveland Clinic...so I hope he knows his sh*t!
 
It's my 3rd week on clomid. 100mg first 3 days had vision, loss of attention and difficulties on understanding. The rest were 25mg and I think I did 3 times 50mg on random days I still got the side effects.

Now I don't think I will continue clomid low test treatment, the side effects are not worth it.

I want to try nolvadex but my endo preferred clomid he said the side effects are greater and you will have a harder time recovering back.

Not sure what to do, I don't think I should trt before having kids


I don't know if he meant the estrogen rebound, but I had the estrogen rebound before when I did clomid 5 days 25mg, my test fell to 411 LH was 3.6.

I'm sure that I will have the estrogen rebound affect and I should use Armosin after clomid discontinue
 
619sss said:
It's my 3rd week on clomid. 100mg first 3 days had vision, loss of attention and difficulties on understanding. The rest were 25mg and I think I did 3 times 50mg on random days I still got the side effects.

Now I don't think I will continue clomid low test treatment, the side effects are not worth it.

I want to try nolvadex but my endo preferred clomid he said the side effects are greater and you will have a harder time recovering back.

Not sure what to do, I don't think I should trt before having kids


I don't know if he meant the estrogen rebound, but I had the estrogen rebound before when I did clomid 5 days 25mg, my test fell to 411 LH was 3.6.

I'm sure that I will have the estrogen rebound affect and I should use Armosin after clomid discontinue
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You can try dosing before bed. 100mg is way to0 much 25EOD/ED is a good protocol, how you felt on 25mg? Definitely don't start TRT before having kids. As for estrogen rebound not to worry much as it seems you know what to do(Arimidex or Exemestane-my preference)
 
100 is way too high. Who said to take that? You endo? You need to be consistent.

You think you dosed 3x 50mg? No wonder you're all over the place.
 
justhere4comm said:
100 is way too high. Who said to take that? You endo? You need to be consistent.

You think you dosed 3x 50mg? No wonder you're all over the place.
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Days on clomid with mgs
100mg/100mg/100mg/25/25/25/25/25/50/50/25/25/25/25/25/50 the last one was today morning
 
Well I'll talk to my endo about HGH therapy for getting the balls to grow and getting them sensitive to LH. That's the only thing I could thing of.... I got 145 IGF-1 (reference 138-352)
 
619sss said:
Well I'll talk to my endo about HGH therapy for getting the balls to grow and getting them sensitive to LH. That's the only thing I could thing of.... I got 145 IGF-1 (reference 138-352)
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Just to clarify, do you mean HCG (Human chorionic gonadotropin)? HCG is usually taken for fuller boys and HCG an LH are worked in conjunction...but you also mention IGF-1 which usually goes along with HGH (human growth hormone).
 
619sss said:
Days on clomid with mgs
100mg/100mg/100mg/25/25/25/25/25/50/50/25/25/25/25/25/50 the last one was today morning
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Seriously, WTF is your endo thinking? If I were you, I'd get a new doctor asap. 100mg is way too high. And you should not be dosing ed. I started at 25mg eod and saw an increase from the 200s to the 400s. 50mg eod took me into the 700-800s. I passed on two endos before starting treatment with my current doctor, who is with the Cleveland Clinic. If you're doc prescribed that dosing that you listed (in bold), I'm baffled. He/she has you jumping all over the place. Good God man.
 
bighulksmash said:
100 is way too much . Sometimes I run it at 100mgs for a week after a 20 week test cycle . I catch phosphorus blast on here for it all the time
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My recommended standard for PCT has always been Nolva 40/40/20/20 and Clomid 100/100/50/50, but this is mostly for guys have been shut down for a long time through blast/cruise. I see a lot of people now are against clomid going that high and using just clomid and no nolva.
 
VeinNutrition said:
Just to clarify, do you mean HCG (Human chorionic gonadotropin)? HCG is usually taken for fuller boys and HCG an LH are worked in conjunction...but you also mention IGF-1 which usually goes along with HGH (human growth hormone).
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HGH not HCG. Human growth hormone makes the LH hormone more sensitive so it makes more test
 
I tried Tongkat Ali high doses 2000mg it increase my test from 400 to 700 but I became emotional but had strength. 300mg Tongkat did not do anything for me. More over my balls seem smaller on Tongkat not sure why


In addition, when I used Fadogia barlowes/T force they didn't do anything to me. SNS bulbine at 700mg made me emotional, I don't know if that's a sign like Tongkat testosterone boost or its was bulbine was bad for me.

Butea superb barlowes 6 pills did not do anything either test or DHT. I tested DHT before and after, nothing changed, studies on butea superba seem sketchy now.
 
VeinNutrition said:
My recommended standard for PCT has always been Nolva 40/40/20/20 and Clomid 100/100/50/50, but this is mostly for guys have been shut down for a long time through blast/cruise. I see a lot of people now are against clomid going that high and using just clomid and no nolva.
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I like it , some guys will bark its to high . But clomid at 100 makes me into a love machine . Nolva makes me paranoid.

Some guys run clomid at 25 with nolva at 10 . Npp and mast would encourage me to use both together.

16 to 20 week cycles are ideal .
 
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