liposomal delivery system, a bunch of bullshit?

comrade

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these liposomal delivery system products that come with the oral syringe, do they effect asorption rates at all?
 

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I honestly doubt it. It's still at the mercy of the stomach and liver.
 

NPursuit

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Absorption is 100% but that doesn't matter. It's the bioavailability that matters. Sure you'll get 100% absorption as long as none of it misses your mouth. It's marketing bs done by VPX.
 

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Since I began lipsomal last summer, I will never go back to pills if I can help it. I've gotten much better results from 4AD and Nor-Diol in lipsomal form than I've ever gotten in pill form. I was taking 900mg a day of 4AD in pill form with minimal effects. I went to lipsomal and bam-- it made all the different, felt the effects much more and made much better gains. Right now I'm taking the Nor in lipsomal form. Plus, I believe you feel it much quicker in your system. I feel the Nor hit me withint10 minutes.
 

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I can feel it coursing through my veins soon after I take it in (swish it around my mouth for 4 minutes). It's like a nice jolt within about 10 minutes of it being in my system.

But the results, as far as strength and size gains, start after the first week of being on. I've taken Nandrogen (AMR) at 6cc a day, divided in two dosages, one in the morning and one before I lift in the evening.
 
bigswole30

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Of course my answer is biased, but it you want to put the liposomal delivery sytem to the test have someone do 50mg per day trans 1-t and have someone do 50mg per day of liposomal 1-T. If they are around the same size, have the same ph experience, and have diet and training in check my money would be on the liposomal product.
 
WATERLOGGED

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hey,are the vpx-4oht,oh deca 4ht cyps intended for pin or for oral forreal? dont want to pin it and kill myself !
 
bigswole30

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As bad as I hate to say this, they can be injected or used orally, but I would not pin the OHD. You will regret it to hell and back. They CYP is painless or at least that's what I hear.
 
WATERLOGGED

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i wonder hummm ,could someone maybe add something to make it painless without cutting mg/ml to much ?
 
Dwight Schrute

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I can feel it coursing through my veins soon after I take it in (swish it around my mouth for 4 minutes). It's like a nice jolt within about 10 minutes of it being in my system.

.
Sorry, hormones don't react like caffeine. If you think you can feel it then your the king of placebo's.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Since I began lipsomal last summer, I will never go back to pills if I can help it. I've gotten much better results from 4AD and Nor-Diol in lipsomal form than I've ever gotten in pill form. I was taking 900mg a day of 4AD in pill form with minimal effects. I went to lipsomal and bam-- it made all the different, felt the effects much more and made much better gains. Right now I'm taking the Nor in lipsomal form. Plus, I believe you feel it much quicker in your system. I feel the Nor hit me withint10 minutes.
If you took 900mg of oral 4AD and got nothing, then your doing something wrong. I'm sorry but switiching to liposomal delivery won't make that big of a difference with an unesterfied substance. You don't feel it quicker in your systemn and most certainly it will not effect you in 10 minutes.
 

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Sorry, hormones don't react like caffeine. If you think you can feel it then your the king of placebo's.
I can definatly feel it. It's a warm feeling... like a foreign substance moving throughout the body via the veins. The warmth courses throughout the body. It may not necessarily be the Nor. It could be the physical makeup of the particular Nandrogen substance. But I definatley feel it enter into the bloodstream. Your post sounds like your mocking my post. It's not like I'm somekind of dumb meathead or jackass. I'm just telling you the feeling I get soon after taking this particular lipsomal substance..., and every time.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I can definatly feel it. It's a warm feeling... like a foreign substance moving throughout the body via the veins. The warmth courses throughout the body. It may not necessarily be the Nor. It could be the physical makeup of the particular Nandrogen substance. But I definatley feel it enter into the bloodstream. Your post sounds like your mocking my post. It's not like I'm somekind of dumb meathead or jackass. I'm just telling you the feeling I get soon after taking this particular lipsomal substance..., and every time.

If you think you can feel a substance (hormone) within 10 minutes of using it, then I am mocking your post. Thats the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard in my life, especially from a "liposomal" delivery. The physical makeup of the nandrolone substance? Do you know what hell your talking about?
 

db682

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This may be a little off track here but if I drink enough alcohol at a high rate of speed I can feel it courseing through my body. Whats even weirder is if I take a double shot of 151 and swish it around in my mouth for 4 mins I start to feel like Im going to pass out from the shear strength of the chemical makeup of the formula that Bacardi uses in that particular compound. And if I dont pass out it courses through my body so fast that by the time it gets around my head and mouth I expell it with such a high velocity that the vomits sprays out like its on some type of pressure fed line.

I also heard that immediatly after these two compounds are placed in your mouth that you instantly feel them moving throughout the body, By then its to late though. Perhaps youve heard of them, Cyanide and Arsenic.

db

Be careful what you put in your mouth. You might want to tell your women that too.
 

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Instead of insulting me, maybe you should come up with a possible reason for the "jolt" that I describe. One possibility is..... that when the lipsomal is swallowed and moves down the esophagus and into the stomach, the Nandrogen creates a burning sensation similar to heartburn. Why it would do this depends on the "physical makeup" of the substance.

Then after that sensation fills the chest area, the body feels a sensation of warmth throughout the body, similar to the body feeling warmth throughout after drinking a cup of hot chocolate during the winter time.
 
fatty

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If you think you can feel a substance (hormone) within 10 minutes of using it, then I am mocking your post. Thats the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard in my life, especially from a "liposomal" delivery. The physical makeup of the nandrolone substance? Do you know what hell your talking about?
so you're telling me all those guys I knew is high school who told me that 15 minutes after they injected they could "feel" themselves going into roid rage were full of ****? :p
 

db682

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Instead of insulting me, maybe you should come up with a possible reason for the "jolt" that I describe. One possibility is..... that when the lipsomal is swallowed and moves down the esophagus and into the stomach, the Nandrogen creates a burning sensation similar to heartburn. Why it would do this depends on the "physical makeup" of the substance.

Then after that sensation fills the chest area, the body feels a sensation of warmth throughout the body, similar to the body feeling warmth throughout after drinking a cup of hot chocolate during the winter time.
Your body feels the rush of warmth from drinking hot coffee or chocolate because it is hotter then your blood and has a heating effect on the bodies core temp. Same reason you get brain freeze from a slurpee or cold chills from eating ice cream. Heartburn is caused by a completly different mechanism in the body but temp. deviations have been known to agravate and activate these mechanism and cause an onset of heartburn. Maybe you shouldnt microwave it before taking it if its causing heartburn, indigestion or sweats or chills. ;)
Id love to say that maybe its caused similiar to the sensation you get from eating hot peppers but then youd feel it as minor burning pains in your mouth right from the start. Your mouth is capable of feeling extremly small amounts of pain from pepper and other chemical or chemical producing products way before any other part of your body will. You dont have taste buds in your throat so you wouldnt feel any burning as it travels to your stomach.

Try again.

db
 

Brodus

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While I agree that you liposomal is bullshit, and that the "effects" (in terms of hormonal changes, growth, etc) cannot themselves be felt, I have noticed a warming effect within the first hour of taking a PH.

I have felt this sensation from 7-Keto DHEA and 19-Nor capsules. I don't know if it was 15 min. or closer to 45 or 60, but its like a niacin flush. I posted about this in relation to 7-keto, and many other users corroborated my experience.

Also, the "1-test" burn that people talk about transdermally-->perhaps its a similar reaction.

Maybe that's what he means.
 

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some things injected you can feel almost immediately, but not nor taken liposomally.

pgh you will feel within seconds. hey, even quicker and stronger if you go IV. :)

note: that is a joke. you CAN inject P-gh IV, but i would not recommend it. let me repeat that. i don't recommend that.

insulin has a pretty quick effect - very quick if IV, pretty quick if IM or SC.

but nor-hormones? no.
 

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Instead of insulting me, maybe you should come up with a possible reason for the "jolt" that I describe. One possibility is..... that when the lipsomal is swallowed and moves down the esophagus and into the stomach, the Nandrogen creates a burning sensation similar to heartburn. Why it would do this depends on the "physical makeup" of the substance.

Then after that sensation fills the chest area, the body feels a sensation of warmth throughout the body, similar to the body feeling warmth throughout after drinking a cup of hot chocolate during the winter time.
BOBO did give you a reason for it - a placebo effect. If you want to belive it not is another story. The mind is an amazing thing and is quite capable of playing tricks on you that are imposible to tell from reality. This is nothing to be ashamed of, just how the mind works. What this means is you actually feel this effect so it is real... just not from the substance you're taking.
 

Brodus

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So no one on this board has experienced a "niacin like flush" from 7-Keto oral within the first hour?
 

jweave23

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So no one on this board has experienced a "niacin like flush" from 7-Keto oral within the first hour?
No. I have done several cycles with 7-keto as an oral, never felt anything like that. About the only thing that gave me the kind of feeling described above (with PH's or anything of the like) is cocaine :eek:
 

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No. I have done several cycles with 7-keto as an oral, never felt anything like that. About the only thing that gave me the kind of feeling described above (with PH's or anything of the like) is cocaine :eek:
Even with coke, I'm not sure you feel it in 10 seconds like he said. I can't remember for sure 'cause it been almost 20 years. That instant feeling could come from your expectations from previous experience, a heroin addict will get off as the pin pokes the skin, before anything is injected. Pavlove's (SP?) dog type thing.
 

Sldge

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Well I know the East Germans had their athletes snort the raw powder for quicker reactions but I have no idea what the time frame was that they used for preworkout or precompetions.
 

chasec

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hmn, i can see it now


VPX GangstaCoke :cool:

buy 3 bottles and you'll get the razor/mirror kit.
 

nsruffryder34

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I dont know why all this bashing on liposomal prohormones..... now many people on this board and others can vouche for me and say i am not biased to any particular products, Im just very interested in mainly prohormones and helping people use the correct ones.
Now Im not going tot say that when vpx says that their liposomal formula is 99% efficient or whatever, that it is true. But I can go by what I saw as far as results.....
I took VPX 1test PC about a year ago... I took double the dose a day, since I am a pretty big guy... I took 12ccs (100mg) each day for a month and I can honestly say I experienced similar results to 250-300mg of 1test transdermally. Either vpx overdoses their product alot, or the liposomal formula works. I would guess the later, since I see no reason a company would say it only contains 50mg and it really contain 150.

I have read a few papers and studies on liposomal delivery and It interests me very much. Now I dont agree with alot of their advertising but In my opinion it does work.
 

Brodus

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Okay, I found the thread I mentioned before. I'm not the only one who has felt a body warming sensation after taking 7-keto DHEA:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14863

"I've used it PCT (along with nolva 40/2 20/2) at 116mg/day trans for 4 weeks and believe it helped me keep a pound or two of lbm and possibly lost 1% bf though its hard to say. Can tell you that my temp went up some .5 F or so and seemed to boost my energy a tad... could really notice if i took before bed which seemed to make me alittle restless, which i suppose is maybe in correlation with a boost in metabolism?"
 
Dwight Schrute

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I dont know why all this bashing on liposomal prohormones..... now many people on this board and others can vouche for me and say i am not biased to any particular products, Im just very interested in mainly prohormones and helping people use the correct ones.
Now Im not going tot say that when vpx says that their liposomal formula is 99% efficient or whatever, that it is true. But I can go by what I saw as far as results.....
I took VPX 1test PC about a year ago... I took double the dose a day, since I am a pretty big guy... I took 12ccs (100mg) each day for a month and I can honestly say I experienced similar results to 250-300mg of 1test transdermally. Either vpx overdoses their product alot, or the liposomal formula works. I would guess the later, since I see no reason a company would say it only contains 50mg and it really contain 150.

I have read a few papers and studies on liposomal delivery and It interests me very much. Now I dont agree with alot of their advertising but In my opinion it does work.

Nobody said it didn't work, but the claims they have made are that you get increased absortion of an already methylated substance that has a bioavailibilty of 90%+. Whether I take it orally, in liposome form, transdermal, injection, etc...its STILL methylated and the results will be the same.

I would look at those papers again because the ones I have show a very inconsistent effect. Just look at the ones on Andriol. The theory is sound but the effect is far from promising. A simple meal can effect the absotion into the lymphatic system. Plus it all circulates back around to the hepatic artery and back into the liver anyway. Whether you bypass the liver 50 times the effect will be the saem because of the structure. Now if this was a non methylated substance, that would be different but the inconsistencies would still be there.

For those comparing 7-keto to the effects of 1-test, its a HUGE reach. 7-Keto is an active metabolite that can increase metabolic rate. Comparing that to 1-test, 4ad, Dbol or any other anabolic hormone and there effects is a little ridiculous. People who think they get strenght and size gains in 24 hours after taking this stuff do no understand the mechanisms of action at all. If thats the case I am going to make a PH w/ some Niacin in in so people think its working the first day they take it. I will be rich :D
 

Brodus

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I am entirely skeptical of the liposomal system in general, only b/c I think VPX had to have a different product on the market in order to justify their INSANE price gouging and pseudo-science. I am sick of how their reps infiltrate boards and try to call foul when consumers and real bros can understand their game and call them on it.

Ironmagazine forums is a prime example. I'm actually about to stop going there all together, mostly on the count of GoPro being completely unable to speak on anything with authority, and the board members there sucking him off like he's some PH messiah, even while his company still sells Methoxy for $100 a bottle and claims it's "better than Deca." I would post my recent immolation of his ass, but I doubt it would be anything new.

I'm not comparing 7-Keto and 1-Test at all...not even close. I wasn't saying I get size gains from it, but my strength went up while I was taking it by at least 5%. The thread I referenced was about how 7-keto makes good sense in a PCT protocol.

All I was saying was that I get a body warming sensation, like a Niacin flush, after taking 7-keto. Along similar lines, many people have spoken about the burning effects of 1-Test--on th body, in the eyes (OUCH), etc...I was just trying to find an explanation for the posters' claim that he could "feel" the 19-nor, when certainly he wasn't feeling the effects of the hormonal changes, and certainly not in that timeframe.
 
Dwight Schrute

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The thread I referenced was about how 7-keto makes good sense in a PCT protocol.

QUOTE]


I've been saying that for quite some time.
 
bigswole30

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I am entirely skeptical of the liposomal system in general, only b/c I think VPX had to have a different product on the market in order to justify their INSANE price gouging and pseudo-science. I am sick of how their reps infiltrate boards and try to call foul when consumers and real bros can understand their game and call them on it.

Ironmagazine forums is a prime example. I'm actually about to stop going there all together, mostly on the count of GoPro being completely unable to speak on anything with authority, and the board members there sucking him off like he's some PH messiah, even while his company still sells Methoxy for $100 a bottle and claims it's "better than Deca." I would post my recent immolation of his ass, but I doubt it would be anything new.

I'm not comparing 7-Keto and 1-Test at all...not even close. I wasn't saying I get size gains from it, but my strength went up while I was taking it by at least 5%. The thread I referenced was about how 7-keto makes good sense in a PCT protocol.

All I was saying was that I get a body warming sensation, like a Niacin flush, after taking 7-keto. Along similar lines, many people have spoken about the burning effects of 1-Test--on th body, in the eyes (OUCH), etc...I was just trying to find an explanation for the posters' claim that he could "feel" the 19-nor, when certainly he wasn't feeling the effects of the hormonal changes, and certainly not in that timeframe.
This is where you guys should do some more homework. Not to stir things up more, but GoPro has nothing to do with sales. He has nothing to gain from posting on any of the boards. The dude is very knowledgeable and just likes to help out.
 
Dwight Schrute

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But he does have something to do with VPX. People don't care whether he is in sales or not. I don't care if he's the head of the mailroom. People will affiliate him with your company and your policies so until you get that, you will continue to have problems like this. So please refrain from telling people to do their homework becuase I don't think people really care what position he is in.

And he has a lot to gain. Please don't even try to bring that arguement here.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Easy Bigswole, don't lose your stack again. I know how you love to get emotional about your position.
 
bigswole30

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Not anymore...there is no need to argue and try and defend VPX to you guys. We both have our stance and they are both very firm.
 

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The following is somewhat off topic.

The only liposome VPX product I have tried is their Liquid Clenbutrx. I think it worked fine, but the taste was from hell, so I just swallowed it. I cannot imagine someone swishing that around in their mouth for a few minutes. Do the other VPX liposome products have a similar taste?
 
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Yeah, I have tried a VPX product in the past....it was the 1-test cyp when they first came out with it....gotta free sample from a rep...

I'm an honest guy and have to say that it DID work, especially since I was only dosing it twice/day....I forget how much though...And then (this was like last year at this time) there were a lot of bashers for their products, but I stood my ground and decided to try it for myself, as I always do.

So, my final thought was this: VPX makes descent products....they make unique products as well....they have the liposomal delivery system of course, but I kinda liked the way I dosed ed w/ it....dunno, I just like weird things like that....they DO have bad marketing....and their products are overpriced IMHO...but they do work....so you be the judge.... my 2cc's...

And if it counts, they got some cool bottle designs, LOL....
 

nsruffryder34

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No the other products have a better taste (notice i didnt say they tasted good but they arnt horrible).

My stance on the liposomal prohormones (and im not jsut saying vpx, but liposomals in general), is that they work very well. Now I dont see the need for a lioposomal methyl, because there is no need for it, but with something like 1test PC, where you would need hundreds of miligrams in a capsule etc... you only need 50-100mgs. I had great gains on 100mg daily of vpx 1test PC.... and Im an experienced AAS user and weight over 200lbs, this has to mean that the delievery system is doing something.

I do agree with you BobO in that there is no need for a liposomal methyl.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Well theortecially liposomal delivery should work but the problem is the inconsistency with keeping a constant level of hormone due to gastric disturbances which can distrurb the uptake of large fat molecules and fat soluble vitamins to the lymphatic sytem. This has been shown with numerous Andriol studies. Now there are a lot of people that have had good results but there also have been an equal amount with zero results. I agree that with 1-Test it looks good on paper, but how much better it would be than transdermal is still unknown.
 

nsruffryder34

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I dont know if it is much better than transdermal.... I would say they are about equal when you lay out the pros and cons of each.
Now with liposomal delivery (specifically 1test and other PH) you get a higher concentration fo the hormones delivered in your body, therefore you can use less (50-100mg). But, the levels are not sustained thorughout the day, requiring the user to administer the PH 3-4 times a day. With transdermal, we get a sustained release (which in turn sustains levels) over 12 hours, but we get less of the PH or steroid absorbed, anywhere from 20-40%, whcih requires us to use a higher dose of PH 150-300mg day.
So if you use a liposomal, and take the doses spread evenly apart 3-4 times a day, or you take a transdermal with higher doses, you will probably see similar results.
I personally liked the liposomal better, jsut for the fact that I didnt have any skin irritationan and no hassle, And I got the same results that I have gotten from transdermals.

This is jsut my opinion on how I see it, everyone is different and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
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I would agree that the liposomal is much more convenient than transdermals but in my experience they both work well.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I dont know if it is much better than transdermal.... I would say they are about equal when you lay out the pros and cons of each.
Now with liposomal delivery (specifically 1test and other PH) you get a higher concentration fo the hormones delivered in your body, therefore you can use less (50-100mg). But, the levels are not sustained thorughout the day, requiring the user to administer the PH 3-4 times a day. With transdermal, we get a sustained release (which in turn sustains levels) over 12 hours, but we get less of the PH or steroid absorbed, anywhere from 20-40%, whcih requires us to use a higher dose of PH 150-300mg day.
So if you use a liposomal, and take the doses spread evenly apart 3-4 times a day, or you take a transdermal with higher doses, you will probably see similar results.
I personally liked the liposomal better, jsut for the fact that I didnt have any skin irritationan and no hassle, And I got the same results that I have gotten from transdermals.

This is jsut my opinion on how I see it, everyone is different and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
1. Equal? I don't tihnk so. the bioavailability of transdermal is higher.

2. A higher concentration of hormones does nothing for gains( if your comparing totals over a peroid of time). Circulating amounts of hormones do not effect the most important aspect of gains such as increased gene transcription which is one the main reasons for increased protein sysnthesis. This is indepedent of hormone level so the theory that more hormones delivered quicker is better hold no water at all.

3. Your not even accounting for receptor binding times of various hormones so your generalizations about a transdermal and liposomal delivery are not accurate.

4. The liposomal delivery can easily be inhibited by many different gatric functions.

"Testosterone undecanoate (TU) is probably the most commonly known lipophilically modified androgen, and it is not considered a very potent compound (its recommended daily dosage is about 240mg). In fact, one study found the oral administration of testosterone undecanoate led only to an absolute testosterone bioavailability of 6.83 +/- 3.32%. That is very slight, especially considering the fact that in the same study they found the bioavailability of straight testosterone to be 3.56 +/- 2.45% (Eur J Drug Metab Pharmacokinet 1986 Apr-Jun;11(2):145-9). That means TU is just a little less than twice as orally active as free testosterone, which is unimpressive to say the least.

The other problem with lipophilic steroid preparations is the high variability in absorption from one person to another. In other words, one guy might absorb the stuff very well while the other guy might absorb very little. There is also high variation within individuals themselves, depending on their gastrointestinal condition when they take the stuff. In another study, ten post-menopausal women were given 40 mg of TU and their peak blood values were recorded. The values varied widely - more than ten fold (range: 5.8-64.0 nmol/L) - amongst the subjects (J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1998 Nov;83(11): 3920-4).


There is no specific data I can find on the bioavailabilty of enyl ether compounds, but since their mode of action is identical to long chain alkyl ester compounds like TU, it is a fair assumption that they too are not outstandingly high in oral bioavailability, or in consistency of absorption. What I do know is that the one and only enyl ether oral steroid on the market today (quinbolone) is generally regarded by european bodybuilders / athletes as too weak to even bother taking."
 

nsruffryder34

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I wouldnt say andriol is the same as a liposomally delivered PH.... if you tok 240mg of andriol and took 240mg of test base transdermally... my bet is you would see better results on 240mg of anriol.
This is ointe where we dont agree bobo :)
 
Dwight Schrute

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Your right, its better and showed bad results. You do know oral 1-test bioavailability is pretty bad and liposomal delivery didn't increase it by much at all. OTOH transdermal application does hecne then use of Androgel for HRT. Transdermal has many more benefits than any liposomal delivery and all studies show this. Nwo for some reason, your not looking at that and I don't know why.

And why wouldn't it be the same? The delivery is the same by avoiding first pass of the liver by delivery through the lymphatic system. Its exactly the same.


Look at the feedback for the original ONE compared to Bills's Ethergels. Its not even close.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I wouldnt say andriol is the same as a liposomally delivered PH.... if you tok 240mg of andriol and took 240mg of test base transdermally...
No way. I've done test base transdermal and it works very well. OTOH I know people that have used Andriol and it wasn't very god at all. Its not just me, its the medical community as a whole that agrees. Nobody in HRT uses Andriol in which if was first developed because it was so unpredictable but Androgel is still being used by many. Ask SWALE, he uses it extensively for patients. Its a far superior delivery system.
 

nsruffryder34

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Well Im jsut speaking from my experience, I like the Liposomal better, from a results/convienence perspective. Im nto saying that the liposomal is better or transdermal is better as there really isnt enough data to support either Im jsut going by my own results. I do think that transdermal is a great delivery and I usually reccomend this form to everyone, but to those who cant/ or wont use a transdermal for conveienence/skin reasons, I would say go with liposomal, because except transdermal, I dont think any other form (not talking methyls) is better than liposmally when you take into account the dose....
 
Dwight Schrute

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Well thats fine. I'm just saying as a whole its very unpredictable as one person can see very good results and another not very good because of its erratic properties. Thats exactly what the studies show. It would be great if it worked exactly how its designed but there is a reason Andriol never because popular. It just didn't pan out. Of course it should work a little at leastbecuase you are getting something into your system but there are many factors which can effect absortion in a negtive way.

Now people are going to say they have great results from the methylated substances that are delivered lymphatically but fail to realize that the deilvery (except for the 17AA modification) had nothing to do with it. SO you have to seperate that feedback form the rest.

THe only downside to trasndermal 1-test is irritation after many uses. Other hormones you won't experience that unless your using some harsh agent such as DMSO. But then absortion is increased dramatically so its sort of a tradeoff.
 

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