You could be 100% on the money, my data has a lot of holes in it, it’s all best guesses at this point. Over time a clear picture should arise though!
Very cool, I might just have to download one of those myself if I can use my flash and the camera for it. I wonder if those are on android too. I almost automatically assume that is what many people have at this point.
Sounds good, and man feel free to post up your findings and anything you think might be valuable to the conversation. I prefer my logs to be a place for open discussion and thought expression. If this were a prep log or sponsored log that might be different, but this is my spot, and I prefer the discussions. I do not see them as derailment but opportunities to learn something new. By all means feel free to add anything to this discussion or any other discussion in here. No derailing, just conversation, even if we are just cutting up and being jackasses in here sometimes. As long as no one disrespects someone else outside of jokingly being silly I don't care. A forum is a place for discussions, so feel free to participate, and add as much to the conversation as you want.So far about 1 pound of potatoes and half a pound of green vegetables, or a pound of sweet potatoes. These appear to have no negative effect on me in testing so far, rice is still on the todo list to test. I ate rice almost daily before starting the sugar diet, I was on roughly 50/50 fruits and rice or potatoes before that. I am doing much better now though, so it’s either the rice, or the different diet altogether, less protein, no starches during the day, etc.
I do actually currently track absolutely everything, I weigh and track every serving. Will extrapolate, put it all in excel in the hopes of finding some kind of magic formula lol. I’m not particularly obsessive, just currently interested in figuring this out
My apologies for taking up so much space in your log, I’m not running one myself and was not planning too, please just let me know if my excitement get’s the best of me and I take it too far. Till then, feels great to share experiences and learn
Thanks, I was going to look this up so it made it easier. I kind of knew what it was, but couldn't remember the details. I am curious now, what things are looking like for me. I am also curious to check and see what happens to my HRV when using my nicotine vape. Seeing that if bad might help me quit.
My wife is starting her sugar diet this week. We loaded up on fruit yesterday, and she is actually excited about it. I think as much as she loves fruits and vegetables, and is fine with protein once a day, that she will do well with it. I’m like you as far as I really do love fruit as part of a balanced diet, but fruit and sugar as 80% to 90% of my diet would get old for me very quickly.
It is Chris, Ethan is probably another user on here, but thank you, and I agree. I know I can do it, but I have also learned that I am not successful if I am not ready to commit just yet. I think what I am going to do is quit while I am out of town Aug 3rd-6th. I won't have anyone around me to borrow a hit from, so as long as I don't buy one while there, I will have 3 solid days under my belt and it will pretty much just be me fighting habits by the time I get home. The tariff's are making this easier because I use the Geek Bar vapes and they are pretty much gone now. They are made in Hong Kong and the supply chain has been stopped for them for some reason or another that has to do with tariffs. At least that is what the guy said at the vape store when i asked him about it. So my favorite flavors will pretty much be gone and he said don't expect them back for 6-12 months, so that will be helpful too.The whole family might be vaping, but Ethan, you’ve already conquered missions most people thought were impossible.
Preliminary Thoughts (with a very unscientific sample size of 1):
So far, sugar fasting seems more effective than the sugar diet.
Reasoning:
- Weight held steady at 99.7 kg for about 2 weeks.
- After 2 days of sugar fasting → dropped to 99.0 kg.
- Followed that with 2 days of normal eating (still high in fruit but more conventional overall) → climbed back to 99.4 kg.
- Then, 1 day of sugar diet → dropped again to 99.0 kg.
So… did I really lose 0.7 kg in just 2 days of sugar fasting with calories at maintenance?
Obviously, I need to repeat the experiment (several times!) before drawing any solid conclusions. But it’s an interesting outcome.
Awesome, curious to hear about her results. As @HP1 mentioned, the sugar fasts with no meat seem to really move the scale, and the other days not so much. It has been a bit of an up and down ride on body weight this past week. I woke up a little wet today, just holding more water, but after my Twin Snakes outing last night added 180g of sugar to my day, this is not a surprise. I did not weigh myself because I knew it would not give me any information that would be beneficial to me in this process.My wife is starting her sugar diet this week. We loaded up on fruit yesterday, and she is actually excited about it. I think as much as she loves fruits and vegetables, and is fine with protein once a day, that she will do well with it. I’m like you as far as I really do love fruit as part of a balanced diet, but fruit and sugar as 80% to 90% of my diet would get old for me very quickly.
I like your thinking with how your changing up your workouts and the balance it should bring, as well as it should help with any nagging injuries. I actually think, as we age, that it’s more beneficial to us than probably any other age group to add more athletic movement to our routines with our weight training, and keep our core and flexibility strong.
I haven't yet. but plan to on my trip to LA August 3rd. Not being around the wife and daughter with their vapes will be much easier to get over that first 3 days while the nicotine is going out of my system. One thing I intend to do is use my new HRV monitoring app to see what changes over the course of that week as my blood pressure and vasoconstriction falls off from the lowering and finally absence of nicotine. My assumption is that I will see an improvement daily as I get further from nicotine exposure. Seeing that will definitely help me stay off. So I am hoping that is what I see.Apologies, just watched the latest Mission: Impossible, so now anyone doing something hard is Ethan in my head. You quit vaping? Boom. Ethan. Jump off a motorcycle mid-air? Also Ethan. Same vibe.
yes no doubt, although we have had some discussion in here with Resolve and the guys in regards to the exact classification/names of various fasting protocols. I think the final decision of course what we call say 16:8 or 20:4 fasting is more or less time restricted feeding. Sugar fasting vs 20:4 seems to be very similar in results for me. In fact, I'd speculate 20:4 fasting (TRF) is not highly valueable to me compared to many small meals all day. Where fasting takes over and reigns supreme for me is at 36+ hours. When I am hitting that zone of autophagy, GH, etc I am seeing noticeable improvement in fat loss. 20:4 to me works out about the same as any other daily caloric deficit. adding fruit a few times per day seems to give me the increased work capacity and some level of satiety so that my 4hr feeding window doesn't end up in a surplus on accident.
Yeah, it is all in the application, and how much of a deficit you make. One thing I will call out here is even on a good day on a sugar fast, I am only getting in about 1600-2000 calories. Since most of it is sugar, I know I am depleting myself by being in a deficit, and only taking in quick acting carbs. I am running right through it for general bodily needs, and any activity is depleting me on top of that. On top of that these things digest so quickly there is not much waste left in the digestive system, so you are going to be lighter there too. That just shows that the sudden weight loss from a full sugar fast day is not magic, or special, so much as completely understandable. The benefit is the body is not only primed to liberate the fat from the cells for energy with the increased FGF21, but it really has no other source to use other than the fat unless catabolizing muscle tissue, which is unlikely in a high BG / insulin state.
I'd have to really sit down and add stuff up but on the days where I decide to give this a try I start the morning off with two tablespoons of honey. basically one in the coffee and one cause I like honey (haha). I've been keeping dried pineapple at my desk at work, and ramping that up as I get closer to hitting the gym, I have the cranberry juice (150cals, real juice not the zero sugar stuff obviously lol) preWO, and I've mixed it up between a can or two of canned fruits vs fresh cut fruits. You're right, the canned fruits have a substantial price benefit, and it's sorta an interesting thing to me to throw a whole can of fruit into a bowl and just sit there and eat it like ceral
What is Estrogen Dominance (per Wikipedia)?
How Carbohydrates Influence Hormonal PathwaysHormonal Impact | Carbohydrates’ Effect According to Ray Peat |
| Progesterone availability | Preserves progesterone by lowering stress-induced cortisol |
| Estrogen dominance risk | Keeps estrogen in check by balancing hormone precursors |
| Thyroid output & metabolism | Enhances T3, promoting estrogen clearance |
| Stress and inflammatory load | Dampens cortisol and serotonin overactivity |
Okay, no wonder you dropped about 2lbs, if all the carbs you got in that day was about 100g, = 400-500 calories and finished off with a low carb high protein meal you were definitely depleted. I would assume your calories were below 2000 unless you ate a high fat protein source or a ton of meat.I'd have to really sit down and add stuff up but on the days where I decide to give this a try I start the morning off with two tablespoons of honey. basically one in the coffee and one cause I like honey (haha). I've been keeping dried pineapple at my desk at work, and ramping that up as I get closer to hitting the gym, I have the cranberry juice (150cals, real juice not the zero sugar stuff obviously lol) preWO, and I've mixed it up between a can or two of canned fruits vs fresh cut fruits. You're right, the canned fruits have a substantial price benefit, and it's sorta an interesting thing to me to throw a whole can of fruit into a bowl and just sit there and eat it like ceral
but just a quick mental math break down I'm seeing 100g+ there I think. there's nearly 70 between the honey and cranberry juice alone before I add in fruit.
but then the mixed macro feeding I allowed my self to eat more to satiety than around calories/macros. I could estimate what it was but it was still likely a total daily value of around 2k calories or less.
I have been researching “sugar diets” some more, there are many, also old ones, this bit is interesting:
Ray Peat’s View: Carbohydrates & Hormonal Balance
- Estrogen dominance, a concept Peat is credited for originating, refers to a state where estrogen levels exceed progesterone due to inadequate progesterone production—not necessarily elevated estrogen itself .
- Ray Peat emphasized that carbohydrates—especially glucose and fructose—help balance hormones by:
- Boosting progesterone (a precursor for cortisol and other protective hormones), thus preventing estrogen from dominating.
- Suppressing stress hormones (like cortisol and adrenaline), reducing the diversion of progesterone toward cortisol synthesis .
- Carbohydrates play a role in enhancing thyroid output (T3), which supports metabolic clearance of estrogen, improves progesterone-to-estrogen conversion, and protects against estrogen’s overstimulation .
- Denotes a metabolic imbalance: relative excess of estrogen versus progesterone, often due to declining progesterone while estrogen remains steady .
- Proposed by Peat and later popularized by others like John R. Lee as a root of fatigue, mood issues, weight gain, and fibrocystic breasts among various symptoms .
- Prevent Progesterone Depletion
- Low-carb or calorie-restricted states elevate stress hormones.
- Stress uses up progesterone to produce cortisol, lowering progesterone and tipping the balance into estrogen dominance.
- Adequate sugar intake helps shield progesterone production and dampen cortisol release .
- Support Thyroid Function
- Carbs help enhance Thyroid‑Stimulating Hormone (TSH) and conversion of T4 to active T3.
- A healthy thyroid supports metabolic detox of estrogens and helps maintain proper estrogen-progesterone ratios.
- Reduce Estrogenic & Serotonergic Overactivity
- Peat believed high estrogen amplifies serotonin and cortisol-driven inflammation.
- Carbohydrates blunt excess estrogenic signaling and reduce serotonin buildup, improving mood and hormonal resilience
Ray Peat considered carbohydrates not merely energy, but hormonal regulators:
Progesterone availability Preserves progesterone by lowering stress-induced cortisol Estrogen dominance risk Keeps estrogen in check by balancing hormone precursors Thyroid output & metabolism Enhances T3, promoting estrogen clearance Stress and inflammatory load Dampens cortisol and serotonin overactivity
- They preserve progesterone, preventing estrogen dominance.
- They support thyroid function, which further moderates estrogen levels.
- They reduce stress hormone surges and serotonin overdrive, keeping the hormonal ecosystem in balance.
Some good info in here.
Honestly, there isn't a ton of difference inside the body. Table sugar is half fructose, and half dextrose i believe. Now corn syrups I would avoid, but gummy bears or twin snakes which are more glucose than any other sugar are good to go for certain. It is like super-fuel, already ready to use once it enters the blood stream. As long as you are getting enough fruits to supply fiber, and nutrients the additional sugars are no big deal outside of calories. No reason not to use the gummies, just make sure the first ingredient is glucose syrup, not corn syrup.
It might even be healthier then a full fast from an inflammatory pov, but unhealthier from others, there’s little to no long term evidence. Apparently Ray Peat reached an age of 86 while consuming a minimum of 400 grams of sugar a day, sample size of 1
Long-term fasting and its influence on inflammatory biomarkers: A comprehensive scoping review
Results: Following a systematic search across multiple databases, 14 studies met the inclusion criteria. Contrary to popular belief, the majority of studies reported either no change or an increase in inflammatory biomarkers during prolonged fasting. CRP levels frequently rose-often significantly-during fasting periods, particularly in individuals with overweight or obesity. Some studies also reported increases in TNF-α and IL-6, though results were less consistent. Importantly, several studies showed a reduction or normalization of CRP levels after refeeding, suggesting that the inflammatory response to fasting may be transient or adaptive. These discrepancies may be due to differences in fasting duration, participant characteristics, and study design.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40484176/
that was just preWO, guestimating by what I can remember from last night, I'm seeing nearly another 100 more plus the constant chugging of electrolytes but all that said, i seem to remember Layne putting some folks on as many as like 400g of carbs as non enhanced athletes on a cut and having great results.
I know you’re not trying to cherry pick anything, just present some ideas, but it’s important to remember that the body is doing a lot of cleaning out when totally fasting - lipid levels, for example, can transiently skyrocket during the fast. But nobody who stops to think that through would say fasting actually raises cholesterol levels longterm or promotes atherosclerosis - we know the opposite to be true.It might even be healthier then a full fast from an inflammatory pov, but unhealthier from others, there’s little to no long term evidence. Apparently Ray Peat reached an age of 86 while consuming a minimum of 400 grams of sugar a day, sample size of 1
Long-term fasting and its influence on inflammatory biomarkers: A comprehensive scoping review
Results: Following a systematic search across multiple databases, 14 studies met the inclusion criteria. Contrary to popular belief, the majority of studies reported either no change or an increase in inflammatory biomarkers during prolonged fasting. CRP levels frequently rose-often significantly-during fasting periods, particularly in individuals with overweight or obesity. Some studies also reported increases in TNF-α and IL-6, though results were less consistent. Importantly, several studies showed a reduction or normalization of CRP levels after refeeding, suggesting that the inflammatory response to fasting may be transient or adaptive. These discrepancies may be due to differences in fasting duration, participant characteristics, and study design.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40484176/
Interesting, I am sure there are things that get out of whack with the Sugar Diet too though. What I do know is everytime I have fasted for more than 60 hours, my joints feel better on the other side of things. Could that be placebo? Absolutely, however, the body tends to improve through temporary stressors, and inflammation is a signal for healing. So perhaps there is more inflammation because there is more healing going on. Add that to the massive amounts of GH produced during a fast, and you are probably looking a recipe for improvement. Perhaps the constant signaling for repair and also breaking down a lot of dysfunctional cells is part of that. Once the food is reintroduced the signaling for inflammation goes down, you have less dysfunctional cells, and are likely in a better situation than before the fast.
Yeah, I am averaging 400 daily. My lower back lit up on me yesterday for some reason, so all I did was take a a couple10-15 minute walks, and a 30 minute walk when I got home yesterday. So I oped for a full sugar fast day. I am back down to 199.2 now. I plan to try to lift today but my back is still very tight and sensitive. If it doesn't start getting better, I may just push the sugar fast through the evening to see what happens overnight. My most recent low is 197.2, and I am curious if that will result in hitting that again or even better.
These were the same thoughts I had when I was looking at the summary. I can definitely believe that inflammation goes up during the fast, but I believe the processes that follow probably leave you in a better position once feeding resumes.
It is a nice benefit, but keep in mind any period of lower calories causes autophagy, it is not limited to fasting, but caloric deficits. Obviously fasting increases it even further in the short term, but any deficit is going to increase autophagy. The body needs what it needs, and is going to get it from somewhere. Why not dysfunctional cells? Do I know if someone fasting hard for 2-3 days a week but eating maintenance the rest of the week to lose say 1.5lbs a week, or someone who keeps a constant deficit to do the same thing is going to be higher or lower? Not really. After say 4 weeks, of this, who had more autophagy? I don't know if that review has been done, but if not, I don't think we know enough to say it does not end up relatively equal over that extended period of time. Just talking out the thoughts in my head here, not citing anything regarding that specifically.
These are all good observations Kleen, and that was my question in the beginning….how much better would this work than your standard cut with a fast added periodically. And even though info on FGF21 is fascinating, some times in real world applications it may be different than the research suggests for different individuals. We see it all the time where something that works great for one person doesn’t work that great for another. The part with FGF21 helping reduce inflammation is interesting, but I wonder if there is enough real world evidence to support that it helps that with everyone. My wife has MS so we are closely monitoring this with her as she does this diet, because the last thing she needs is a flare up in the middle of the summer.
Yeah, absolutely, I was just going off of expectations based on the information presented originally. IE the 20% increase in metabolism added to the small deficit should have equaled out to a pretty decent deficit. I am not currently seeing that in action, but the next few days could change that if I end up under 197.2 at the end of this. I think my last day will be a sugar fast just to give it the most chance of success, and then once I resume eating more regularly, I will make note of what my weight ends up resting at.
Man that sucks that the back is still hurting. Hopefully it calms down soon. I wonder on the sugar diet or fast how quickly the body adapts to the lower calories and weight loss stalls, like on a regular cut, or does FGF21 slow down the body adapting somehow? I know that probably isn’t why you didn’t lose more weight this time, but I do wonder if FGF21 slows the adapting down, which would allow for more weight loss without having to reduce calories more.
I think that is the case with every form of eating due to the variability in the humans. Curious how that will work out for you. In the end, I think I will simply go back to a mixed macro diet after this. It is simply more balanced, and I have not been able to assign any major benefit to the Sugar Diet over mixed macro feedings from my experience thus far. I definitely prefer to have more fruit in my diet, but not all day without protein. For me the juice has not been worth the squeeze at this point almost 2 weeks in. I am not saying that it is not good, but not what I was hoping to see based on how the effects have been advertised. Others may love this approach, and find it to be a perfect fit for them. To them I say, go for it. You have to do what works for you. I find this too restrictive, with a strong chance of binging at times. Similar to TRF or Intermittent fasting for many. Also according to Huberman once over like 55-60 not getting protein during the morning tends to lead to faster age related muscle loss. I am not 55 yet, but close enough to be like well, I want to preserve as much of this tissue as possible. Especially in a position I can not train as hard as I used to with these injuries right now.
Yeah, I mean does it take over 2 weeks to make the shift to it, and how long does it take to lose it once stopping . Judging by @1HP's findings in his research one relatively small protein meal can drop FGF21 by over half for 12 hours. So, I have a feeling it is pretty transient in nature.
Agreed.
another reason why I like fasting lol. definitely allows for more freedom on a feeding day, and simplifies tracking when there is nothing to track...
That’s some good steady weight loss. You may have already said it, but when you started the sugar diet and sugar fasting, did you see an increase of weight loss or did it stay on the same pace as what you were doing? And had you stalled at all losing weight before the sugar diet, and the sugar diet kickstarted it again? Because you have obviously had success before and after starting the sugar diet, but I wonder how it compares for you.
That’s good detailed feedback….it appears adding more fruits as a carb source is obviously beneficial for the nutrition they provide, but also the energy and efficiency when cutting. And the sugar fast appears to be at least a very good tool to deploy throughout a cut to keep things moving. For me, I already love fruit, so switching out some starch carbs for more fruit is something I will do, and may even try a sugar fast on one of my non workout days, and maybe a fast on another non workout day, while eating maintenance on my workout days, and see how that goes.