Hyde’s Strength Odyssey

[Hyde]

How do you pin it?

IM preWO or pre-cardio when performance or fat-loss is the goal, IM postWO with a large carbohydrate meal if accelerated recovery & muscle glycogen storage is the goal, Subq upon waking for general adaptations/off-day dosing, and Subq before bed with a big dose of Glutathione IM very sparingly to enhance recovery when you are feeling pretty trashed.

When you are trying to use it in a prep/fat-loss phase, you would use your 200mg IM upon waking before fasted cardio and then a bigger dose of 4-600mg IM before training. 1 unit of insulin can be substituted for or used in conjunction with carbohydrates according to the ebook, if you are someone who uses that (I’m not, and have been eating proats preWO).

So 200mg a day, subq in my butt on off-days and IM in delts prior to training.

amazing summary, thank you for so much information!! do you have to pin it daily then? the stuff I picked up is 1500mg oral and based upon what you said if I understand correctly it sounds like taking about a 1/2 to 3/4 dose twice a day would be more beneficial then, despite oral not being as great as direct injection. I will definitely do more reading!

I tried to deliver some of the most relevant stuff I picked up from the ebook because I feel it will be over the head or interest level really for most users, but it’s good info that needs to get out there.

Basically at least 3-4x a week when injecting, but daily is ideal. It’s a longterm strategy, so missing a day here or there is fine.

Yeah definitely dose it over 2-3 servings and at least 2g daily if orally. Basically with meals so insulin is present in the bloodstream.

 

[Hyde]

Weighed in at 105kg yesterday morning at 9am fasted after a movement! Went for a dexascan - down 15lbs (from 246lbs) the week of the meet 6.5 weeks ago. Lost 7lbs of muscle (mainly in legs and core) and 8lbs of fat, so still at exact same 22.3% bodyfat. That sounds pretty terrible, but keep in mind I’ve been using bout 700mg less gear average and no orals (on 120/120 test/eq) and no barbell training for 40 days! Plus intentionally eating in a deficit while I just focus on staying active and rehabbing my back. Going to continue letting my weight come down if it wants to. It will all come back whenever I decide to make it so.

7/24/21

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

Plate Rear Delt Flyes
10 2x20

Plate-loaded Seated OHP Machine
45/side x10
90x5
135,180x1
215x1 PR
225x3 PR
180x6 PR

Decline Bench
135x8
225,245,265x5
285x6 PR

Very High Incline DB Press
50x27+13 rest pause

YEAHHHH BUDDY!!! Been dreaming about this, wanting to press 5 plates a side on this machine for a single. When I trained with Chad and Jordan (both Pro strongmen), they would do reps on this machine with 5 plates a side as an accessory no issue, so I have always seen that as the standard. Today I not only broke 5 plates, I managed a max effort triple. Not the same thing of course, but it’s great to see the progress over years.

 

[Whisky]

View attachment 207009

Weighed in at 105kg yesterday morning at 9am fasted after a movement! Went for a dexascan - down 15lbs (from 246lbs) the week of the meet 6.5 weeks ago. Lost 7lbs of muscle (mainly in legs and core) and 8lbs of fat, so still at exact same 22.3% bodyfat. That sounds pretty terrible, but keep in mind I’ve been about 700mg less gear average or using any orals (on 120/120 test/eq) and no barbell training for 40 days! Plus intentionally eating in a deficit while I just focus on staying active and rehabbing my back. Going to continue letting my weight come down if it wants to. It will all come back whenever I decide to make it so.

7/24/21

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

Plate Rear Delt Flyes
10 2x20

Plate-loaded Seated OHP Machine
45/side x10
90x5
135,180x1
215x1 PR
225x3 PR

Decline Bench
135x8
225,245,265x5
285x6 PR

Very High Incline DB Press
50x27+13 rest pause

YEAHHHH BUDDY!!! Been dreaming about this, wanting to press 5 plates a side on this machine for a single. When I trained with Chad and Jordan (both Pro strongmen), they would do reps on this machine with 5 plates a side as an accessory no issue, so I have always seen that as the standard. Today I not only broke 5 plates, I managed a max effort triple. Not the same thing of course, but it’s great to see the progress over years.

awesome as ever brother

 

[jinxie]

View attachment 207009

Weighed in at 105kg yesterday morning at 9am fasted after a movement! Went for a dexascan - down 15lbs (from 246lbs) the week of the meet 6.5 weeks ago. Lost 7lbs of muscle (mainly in legs and core) and 8lbs of fat, so still at exact same 22.3% bodyfat. That sounds pretty terrible, but keep in mind I’ve been using bout 700mg less gear average and no orals (on 120/120 test/eq) and no barbell training for 40 days! Plus intentionally eating in a deficit while I just focus on staying active and rehabbing my back. Going to continue letting my weight come down if it wants to. It will all come back whenever I decide to make it so.

7/24/21

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

Plate Rear Delt Flyes
10 2x20

Plate-loaded Seated OHP Machine
45/side x10
90x5
135,180x1
215x1 PR
225x3 PR
180x6 PR

Decline Bench
135x8
225,245,265x5
285x6 PR

Very High Incline DB Press
50x27+13 rest pause

YEAHHHH BUDDY!!! Been dreaming about this, wanting to press 5 plates a side on this machine for a single. When I trained with Chad and Jordan (both Pro strongmen), they would do reps on this machine with 5 plates a side as an accessory no issue, so I have always seen that as the standard. Today I not only broke 5 plates, I managed a max effort triple. Not the same thing of course, but it’s great to see the progress over years.

That’s a good report. You already looked leaner than 22%. Superb PRs — sounds like you really wanted it!

 

[BennyMagoo79]

View attachment 207009

Weighed in at 105kg yesterday morning at 9am fasted after a movement! Went for a dexascan - down 15lbs (from 246lbs) the week of the meet 6.5 weeks ago. Lost 7lbs of muscle (mainly in legs and core) and 8lbs of fat, so still at exact same 22.3% bodyfat. That sounds pretty terrible, but keep in mind I’ve been using bout 700mg less gear average and no orals (on 120/120 test/eq) and no barbell training for 40 days! Plus intentionally eating in a deficit while I just focus on staying active and rehabbing my back. Going to continue letting my weight come down if it wants to. It will all come back whenever I decide to make it so.

7/24/21

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

Plate Rear Delt Flyes
10 2x20

Plate-loaded Seated OHP Machine
45/side x10
90x5
135,180x1
215x1 PR
225x3 PR
180x6 PR

Decline Bench
135x8
225,245,265x5
285x6 PR

Very High Incline DB Press
50x27+13 rest pause

YEAHHHH BUDDY!!! Been dreaming about this, wanting to press 5 plates a side on this machine for a single. When I trained with Chad and Jordan (both Pro strongmen), they would do reps on this machine with 5 plates a side as an accessory no issue, so I have always seen that as the standard. Today I not only broke 5 plates, I managed a max effort triple. Not the same thing of course, but it’s great to see the progress over years.

When you get back under the bar, with maintenance cals your composition will shift dramatically.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Nice PR too!!! That's epic dude, never seen anyone press 5 plates/side on that machine!

 

[Hyde]

Nice PR too!!! That's epic dude, never seen anyone press 5 plates/side on that machine!

This is the one, the Nautilus Leverage Shoulder Press machine:

 

[jinxie]

That machine looks really legit. Must be a sweet, premium gym. Nice work.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

This is the one, the Nautilus Leverage Shoulder Press machine:

View attachment 207025

We have the hammerstrength machine at my gym

 

[Hyde]

That machine looks really legit. Must be a sweet, premium gym. Nice work.

$10 a month and they have a sauna if I need to cut weight. And it’s air-conditioned. That’s why I have the membership. Bars are crap, usually very busy, but it’s good for this kind of work, cardio, “exercise”.

Not a place you’d chalk your hands or actually get big & strong

We have the hammerstrength machine at my gym

That’s a great one. I think I could do this on that one as well; 10 years ago I was pressing 2.5 plates a side on it when I was benching mid 200s. I actually prefer that one but haven’t seen one in a long time.

 

[Hyde]

7/25/21
BW 231.2

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

Underhand Pulldown Warmups

V-grip Chin-ups
13,12,10,8,9 lifetime PR at this BW range

Incline Bench Chest-supported DB Rows
80x10,13

EZBar Upright Rows
45,90,100x12

EZBar Curls
50x12
70x10
80x8

Doggcrapp Seated DB Rear Delt Flyes
30x12+6+4

I have never been able to do reps/total volume like this on chins since I was around 205lbs many years ago. Curling starting to feel stronger as well after the other day. Horizontal rowing was very hard, but first time touching this in a long time so happy to begin rebuilding here without pain.

 

[jinxie]

$10 a month and they have a sauna if I need to cut weight. And it’s air-conditioned. That’s why I have the membership. Bars are crap, usually very busy, but it’s good for this kind of work, cardio, “exercise”.

That’s a deal for equipment like that. I have a lifetime $99/yr deal at 24 hr Fitness (all clubs) that I keep for similar reasons, mostly in case of travel. But I never use it, lol. I probably would if they had plate loaded machines like yours. Same same regarding the crappy bars, many which don’t even weigh 44-45 lbs.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Nice chins mate!

 

[Dustin07]

That’s a deal for equipment like that. I have a lifetime $99/yr deal at 24 hr Fitness (all clubs) that I keep for similar reasons, mostly in case of travel. But I never use it, lol. I probably would if they had plate loaded machines like yours. Same same regarding the crappy bars, many which don’t even weigh 44-45 lbs.

24hr was my longest lasting gym membership. at one point I think I had 3 or 4 memberships (including owning one while attending other ones). But COVID killed our local 24hr permanently unfortunately for the first time in about 14 years I am not a 24hr member anymore.

 

[jinxie]

Nice chins mate!

+1. Most excellent, dude.

 

[Hyde]

24hr was my longest lasting gym membership. at one point I think I had 3 or 4 memberships (including owning one while attending other ones). But COVID killed our local 24hr permanently unfortunately for the first time in about 14 years I am not a 24hr member anymore.

Yeah I have always tried to have a super cheap fitness club membership. It’s worth it to always have at least a couple options in my opinion.

 

[Whisky]

Yeah I have always tried to have a super cheap fitness club membership. It’s worth it to always have at least a couple options in my opinion.

i maintain one myself despite having a great home gym set up. Although to be honest it’s mainly so I can perv at the gym bunnies in those tiktok leggings

 

[Dustin07]

i maintain one myself despite having a great home gym set up. Although to be honest it’s mainly so I can perv at the gym bunnies in those tiktok leggings

haha fair enough. Pre covid I had a $9.99 gym near my place in Tacoma, cancelled that when planet fitness bought them out, but also kept my 24hr fitness cause it was closer to work (1hr commute), and then had an Xfit membership for similar reasons to your point above lol. ended up marrying one of them though and she still looks good in her fabletics ha

 

[SkRaw85]

$10 a month and they have a sauna if I need to cut weight. And it’s air-conditioned. That’s why I have the membership. Bars are crap, usually very busy, but it’s good for this kind of work, cardio, “exercise”.

Not a place you’d chalk your hands or actually get big & strong



That’s a great one. I think I could do this on that one as well; 10 years ago I was pressing 2.5 plates a side on it when I was benching mid 200s. I actually prefer that one but haven’t seen one in a long time.

We have the same commercial gym

 

[jinxie]

7/25/21
BW 231.2

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

Underhand Pulldown Warmups

V-grip Chin-ups
13,12,10,8,9 lifetime PR at this BW range

Incline Bench Chest-supported DB Rows
80x10,13

EZBar Upright Rows
45,90,100x12

EZBar Curls
50x12
70x10
80x8

Doggcrapp Seated DB Rear Delt Flyes
30x12+6+4

I have never been able to do reps/total volume like this on chins since I was around 205lbs many years ago. Curling starting to feel stronger as well after the other day. Horizontal rowing was very hard, but first time touching this in a long time so happy to begin rebuilding here without pain.

Back on point, this is the tits! Well done, sir! That’s a boatload of chins!

 

[Hyde]

haha fair enough. Pre covid I had a $9.99 gym near my place in Tacoma, cancelled that when planet fitness bought them out, but also kept my 24hr fitness cause it was closer to work (1hr commute), and then had an Xfit membership for similar reasons to your point above lol. ended up marrying one of them though and she still looks good in her fabletics ha

You are thinking about PF all wrong. Some choose to view it as poor excuse for a gym, but that’s a glass-half-empty kind of view.

Me, I see it as the most affordable All-You-Can-Eat pizza buffet membership club in town!

 

[Dustin07]

haha, fair enough

 

[jinxie]

You are thinking about PF all wrong. Some choose to view it as poor excuse for a gym, but that’s a glass-half-empty kind of view.

Me, I see it as the most affordable All-You-Can-Eat pizza buffet membership club in town!

Our Planet Fitness in town sucks. Machines are often broken and there aren’t many I’m interested in. It’s conveniently located, but that’s about it. My wife’s work paid for it and we still quit. I’d rather just train at home. With that said, I keep my all-club 24 hr Fitness membership bc its $99/year and there’s actually some equipment that adds value. Too bad, it’s a good 20 minute drive each way. So I mostly keep it for travel.

 

[Dustin07]

Our Planet Fitness in town sucks. Machines are often broken and there aren’t many I’m interested in. It’s conveniently located, but that’s about it. My wife’s work paid for it and we still quit. I’d rather just train at home. With that said, I keep my all-club 24 hr Fitness membership bc its $99/year and there’s actually some equipment that adds value. Too bad, it’s a good 20 minute drive each way. So I mostly keep it for travel.

I walked in to the gym the day PF took over and saw they had removed all free weights, all barbells, etc and painted machines purple. I said well there's literally nothing here for me to do so I'm out.

 

[Whisky]

Your making me think we have it ok in the UK.

the chain I use (JD sports) has eleiko bars and plates (inc comp bumpers), a couple of platforms, one of those 180 degree type flip machines, plate loaded strength equipment, sled tracks etc. I do my heavy lifting at home just because I want my music and to be able to shout and sh1t but it’s a decent enough big box gym.

 

[jinxie]

Your making me think we have it ok in the UK.

the chain I use (JD sports) has eleiko bars and plates (inc comp bumpers), a couple of platforms, one of those 180 degree type flip machines, plate loaded strength equipment, sled tracks etc. I do my heavy lifting at home just because I want my music and to be able to shout and sh1t but it’s a decent enough big box gym.

That sounds solid. But not sure we’re comparing apples here. Planet Fitness and 24 hr Fitness are sort of the bottom of the barrel here in the US.

At any rate, a chain fitness gym with Eleiko bars is not a thing over here as far as I know. I think you’d need to go to a little niche gym, that’s a lot more expensive.

 

[Dustin07]

That sounds solid. But not sure we’re comparing apples here. Planet Fitness and 24 hr Fitness are sort of the bottom of the barrel here in the US.

At any rate, a chain fitness gym with Eleiko bars is not a thing over here as far as I know. I think you’d need to go to a little niche gym, that’s a lot more expensive.

about a year before COVID my 24hr gym put in a huge olympic lifting area with 8 platforms, squat racks and all Eleiko barbells and bumpers. it blew my mind because prior to that only my CrossFit gym had invested in Eleiko.

that said, COVID killed that gym permanently. :sadface:

It really was sad to lose that gym though. for over a decade I saw the same people in there in their same shifts. (I sometimes did before work 5am crew, sometimes after work 4pm crew. ) those peeps never got any fitter. the morning crew was always way over weight. but it was their social hour before the day started I think and I still had some respect for them and their habit.

 

[Whisky]

That sounds solid. But not sure we’re comparing apples here. Planet Fitness and 24 hr Fitness are sort of the bottom of the barrel here in the US.

At any rate, a chain fitness gym with Eleiko bars is not a thing over here as far as I know. I think you’d need to go to a little niche gym, that’s a lot more expensive.

tbh it’s pretty comparable bro, all our 24hr chains come in around $20 - $25 a month (varies depending on where you live). There’s a couple at maybe $15 a month but normally that’s just opening offers etc.

Our best known budget gym is probably pure gym which is a direct comparable to the JD I go to.

our higher end gyms are typically $60-$100 a month (and have pools)

 

[Hyde]

I only have ever been to a single gym in the US with Eleiko equipment, and the owner was a weightlifter so half of the gym was weightlifting and powerlifting area and the other side was CrossFit/functional training that kept the lights on.

 

[Dustin07]

tbh it’s pretty comparable bro, all our 24hr chains come in around $20 - $25 a month (varies depending on where you live). There’s a couple at maybe $15 a month but normally that’s just opening offers etc.

Our best known budget gym is probably pure gym which is a direct comparable to the JD I go to.

our higher end gyms are typically $60-$100 a month (and have pools)

I just checked and it looks like my current power lifting gym is $65/month with 1 yr commitment (I'm grandfathered in at $37.50). most of the new bars we run are PR lifting, texas bars, or other good Rogues, but no Eliekos. he got hammered during covid and barely kept the doors open but it's a good power lifting gym. best in the area really. military/law enforcement get $45/month

 

[BennyMagoo79]

i maintain one myself despite having a great home gym set up. Although to be honest it’s mainly so I can perv at the gym bunnies in those tiktok leggings

Working out at home is like watching a movie you've been waiting for release at home.

 

[Hyde]

7/27/21

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

GHR
3x18

DB Lunges
25,45,50,55/hand x10/leg

Frontsquat
45,95,115x5
135 EMOM 4x5, 1x10

Laying Leg Curl
110x8
180x10,9,8 PR

Glute Bridge Machine
410x12 PR

Great morning of training. Moved to dbs for lunges so I can begin loading it heavier. Sunday was 6 weeks since the meet, so I am officially out of post-comp “no barbell/off-time” mode. Still rehabbing my back, so that is the priority of course, but I intend to start hitting the bench again and whatever I can safely do a little heavier.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

7/27/21

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

GHR
3x18

DB Lunges
25,45,50,55/hand x10/leg

Frontsquat
45,95,115x5
135 EMOM 4x5, 1x10

Laying Leg Curl
110x8
180x10,9,8 PR

Glute Bridge Machine
410x12 PR

Great morning of training. Moved to dbs for lunges so I can begin loading it heavier. Sunday was 6 weeks since the meet, so I am officially out of post-comp “no barbell/off-time” mode. Still rehabbing my back, so that is the priority of course, but I intend to start hitting the bench again and whatever I can safely do a little heavier.

Bench PRs come easily when one does not squat or deadlift.

 

[Dustin07]

I do love glute bridges for back rehab, anything that allows me to really squeeze the glutes seems to help a lot for my particular back issues. our gym also got a reverse hypers. That + RDL's have I think saved my previous back crisis. hopefully yours is back stronger soon as well.

Bench PRs come easily when one does not squat or deadlift.

yeah I do notice that I either PR pressing movements or leg stuff, but rarely both on the same cycle.

 

[jinxie]

7/27/21

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

GHR
3x18

DB Lunges
25,45,50,55/hand x10/leg

Frontsquat
45,95,115x5
135 EMOM 4x5, 1x10

Laying Leg Curl
110x8
180x10,9,8 PR

Glute Bridge Machine
410x12 PR

Great morning of training. Moved to dbs for lunges so I can begin loading it heavier. Sunday was 6 weeks since the meet, so I am officially out of post-comp “no barbell/off-time” mode. Still rehabbing my back, so that is the priority of course, but I intend to start hitting the bench again and whatever I can safely do a little heavier.

Well done, man! Look forward to seeing barbells resume moving here! I’m sure this recent work will pay dividends to your body and your lifts. Progress pic!

 

[SkRaw85]

Working out at home is like watching a movie you've been waiting for release at home.

I hope that one would be naked for both of these activities.

 

[Hyde]

7/28/21
BW 233.4

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

Band Facepulls & Tri Pressdown
2x25/each

Bench
45x10
95,135,185,225,235,245,255,265x5

Reverse Grip Bench
135,185,205,225,245x8 PR

Dips
BW 2x25 PR

Early morning garage sesh knocking the cobwebs off of benchpress. After getting mentioned in Jinxie’s log, I decided to try reverse grip benching for the first time in a decade - turns out I’m a lot stronger now Big thanks for @wfreiling for the hack hitting dips on my reverse hyper handles - excellent!

You never know when your time is up - this song reminded me of that. Smashed that last set of reverse grip & finished with a smile.

 

[jinxie]

7/28/21
BW 233.4

10 min walk
McGill Big 3

Band Facepulls & Tri Pressdown
2x25/each

Bench
45x10
95,135,185,225,235,245,255,265x5

Reverse Grip Bench
135,185,205,225,245x8 PR

Dips
BW 2x25 PR

Early morning garage sesh knocking the cobwebs off of benchpress. After getting mentioned in Jinxie’s log, I decided to try reverse grip benching for the first time in a decade - turns out I’m a lot stronger now Big thanks for @wfreiling for the hack hitting dips on my reverse hyper handles - excellent!

View attachment 207139

You never know when your time is up - this song reminded me of that. Smashed that last set of reverse grip & finished with a smile.

Welcome back to the barbell! Nice benching, including reverse — particularly impressive for first time in a decade. Seems contagious, haha.

 

[SkRaw85]

Reverse day

 

[Hyde]

Welcome back to the barbell! Nice benching, including reverse — particularly impressive for first time in a decade. Seems contagious, haha.

Last time I tried it I was trying to use straps to hold 185 for a few reps and my normal 1RM was probably only right around 245!

Reverse day

AM reverse grip crew checking in

 

[Hyde]

This is what 105kg/231lbs at 22.3% bodyfat is looking like flexed on me currently:

Not optimal lighting, but that’s about as good as it gets presentation-wise besides not spreading my lats out fully or trying to entirely vacuum my stomach.

3,2-3,300 calories per day has been slowly dropping weight.

 

[wfreiling]

Last Breath is a song saved for prs for me, also I almost immediately break into tears after hearing it. Shits goes hard and is for all my fallen brothers.

Looking good big homie. Thicc af! I gotta get back after reverse grip myself as it’s been a minute. Your progress is sick.

 

[jinxie]

This is what 105kg/231lbs at 22.3% bodyfat is looking like flexed on me currently:

View attachment 207147

Not optimal lighting, but that’s about as good as it gets presentation-wise besides not spreading my lats out fully or trying to entirely vacuum my stomach.

3,2-3,300 calories per day has been slowly dropping weight.

Looking large and lean; substantial change! I’d place you at around 15% based on appearance. You look great!

Are you using calipers, bioimpedance or water displacement? Fwiw, my scale says I’m 23% BF, which is probably about 10% high.

 

[SkRaw85]

This is what 105kg/231lbs at 22.3% bodyfat is looking like flexed on me currently:

View attachment 207147

Not optimal lighting, but that’s about as good as it gets presentation-wise besides not spreading my lats out fully or trying to entirely vacuum my stomach.

3,2-3,300 calories per day has been slowly dropping weight.

No more presentation needed. Thiccc, saucy and sexy.

 

[Dustin07]

I'm curious for fun how your neck and arms compare size wise. I measured today for shits and giggles and found my neck and arms to be almost identical in size. That's with my arms about 1-2" smaller than I'd like tho lol

 

[jinxie]

I'm curious for fun how your neck and arms compare size wise. I measured today for shits and giggles and found my neck and arms to be almost identical in size. That's with my arms about 1-2" smaller than I'd like tho lol

Mine are about the same as well, both low to mid 16”. I have a pretty long thin neck though, IMO.

 

[Dustin07]

Mine are about the same as well, both low to mid 16”. I have a pretty long thin neck though, IMO.

your neck appears to be thicker than mine or I'm measuring wrong. Usually I can measure things to be bigger than they actually are lol.

I do wear a 16.5 neck in shirt size but I'm pretty sure it was sub 16" when I measured today.

 

[Hyde]

Thanks for the kind words gents!

Are you using calipers, bioimpedance or water displacement? Fwiw, my scale says I’m 23% BF, which is probably about 10% high.

This would be an InBody bioelectrical impedance. No abs showing at all so I suspect it’s fairly accurate.

I'm curious for fun how your neck and arms compare size wise. I measured today for shits and giggles and found my neck and arms to be almost identical in size. That's with my arms about 1-2" smaller than I'd like tho lol

Neck is 18”. Fortunately it’s fairly long to help offset my traps, which have always been pretty substantial responders.

Arms are 17” or so cold. Can’t remember my wingspan, but I have ape arms for sure.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

I hope that one would be naked for both of these activities.

Good point.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Yeah you look like you could rip my arms clean out of their sockets!