Unanswered How comparable is 4-andro to actual test?

[LGTWHIT]

OP... are you completely against illegal aas? Do you fear needles? If you answer no to quest 1 and yes to 2 what about transdermal test? Will be more effective than any suggestions listed above. Are you only going to run 4- andro or are you using it only as a base to maintain homeostasis

 

[Hyde]

Ok. Prolactin sucks. But tbh both of these two probably aren't much of an issue at low doses. But otherwise, take an Ai and Caber, done. But yeah, in this regard, it's not for beginners.

@Nac shutdown, why would this be a bad side? You're shutdown on cycle either way. You saying that recovery/pct is somehow harder?

19-Nors indeed take substantially longer to recover from than DHTs and testosterone derivatives. This is pretty well documented at this point. Basically if you aren’t 100% on TRT sooner rather than later they should be avoided for intermediates.

I would feel safer running 14 weeks of EQ than 8-10 weeks of Deca in a blast, to illustrate the example.

 

[Jinsun]

19-Nors indeed take substantially longer to recover from than DHTs and testosterone derivatives. This is pretty well documented at this point. Basically if you aren’t 100% on TRT sooner rather than later they should be avoided for intermediates.

I would feel safer running 14 weeks of EQ than 8-10 weeks of Deca in a blast, to illustrate the example.

Oh I see. Yeah then screw trest as a base.

I just did bloods, 1 month after pct and my TT is right at the top of the lab range. Never did any 19 nor's. Cycling has thus far been, regarding hpta, non destructive ...

 

[CATdiesel76]

The most significant things about trest, and probably the least amenable to "control", are the fact it will shut you down harder than any other drug, at any dose we bbers use, and it will tend to totally **** over your lipids. The shutdown is the most significaht though.

And then you have all the other potential sides already mentioned.

Any bloodwork that shows trest killing lipids? I’d like to know since I always thought it was pretty mild on lipids especially with the extra estrogen. The only bad lipid profiles I saw were people also running enormous amounts of AIs on it which are known to rank lipids.

In general, people run trest far too high. 100mg weekly IM is enough to produce significant results. You also won’t have to guzzle down letro and a 1mg of arimidex every day. Keeping test low also helps substantially. I see so many people running high test and over 400mg a week of trest and they wonder why they can’t get their estrogen under control

 

[CATdiesel76]

The most significant things about trest, and probably the least amenable to "control", are the fact it will shut you down harder than any other drug, at any dose we bbers use, and it will tend to totally **** over your lipids. The shutdown is the most significaht though.

And then you have all the other potential sides already mentioned.

Any bloodwork that shows trest killing lipids? I’d like to know since I always thought it was pretty mild on lipids especially with the extra estrogen. The only bad lipid profiles I saw were people also running enormous amounts of AIs on it which are known to rank lipids.

In general, people run trest far too high. 100mg weekly IM is enough to produce significant results. You also won’t have to guzzle down letro and a 1mg of arimidex every day. Keeping test low also helps substantially. I see so many people running high test and over 400mg a week of trest and they wonder why they can’t get their estrogen under control

 

[Nac]

Any bloodwork that shows trest killing lipids? I’d like to know since I always thought it was pretty mild on lipids especially with the extra estrogen. The only bad lipid profiles I saw were people also running enormous amounts of AIs on it which are known to rank lipids.

No, nothing in terms of significant study data; I cant even remember if the Population Council studies did lipid profiles, which would probably settle this as they used absolutely tiny amounts of trest compared to what bbers use.

My claim re:lipids was really based on my own experiences and conversations with fuelledpassion. Im happy to retract it.

 

[CATdiesel76]

No, nothing in terms of significant study data; I cant even remember if the Population Council studies did lipid profiles, which would probably settle this as they used absolutely tiny amounts of trest compared to what bbers use.

My claim re:lipids was really based on my own experiences and conversations with fuelledpassion. Im happy to retract it.

No don’t retract it at all. I wasnt saying you were wrong. I was just trying to learn more information to improve my own knowledge. I have too seen bad lipids on trest but always assumed it was due to the heavy AI doses. But maybe maybe trest does as well. I know a lot smart people say it’s best to keep 19nors below 200mg a week. I always kept trest around 150 or below. Still got great effects and didn’t need an AI. I believe a little estrogen helps lipids so that was my thought process. Once again, I really need bloods while on it so I can no for sure

I’m no expert which I why I was wanted to learn more about you saying it’s tough on lipids. I love trest and have stupidly never gotten bloods during the many times I’ve run it. So if it is messing up lipid profiles on its own, I certainly would want to know so I’m glad you shared that. Mind me asking what else you were taking when you got bloods?

 

[Hyde]

Oh I see. Yeah then screw trest as a base.

I just did bloods, 1 month after pct and my TT is right at the top of the lab range. Never did any 19 nor's. Cycling has thus far been, regarding hpta, non destructive ...

I am similar, but I am only 29. 8 years of oral/transdermal cycling an average of 2x a year has been kind to me.

Only time I have was trenavar for 8 weeks, and it took a long time to really feel right. Like 8-10 weeks despite 6 weeks of SERM usage upon cessation. I have used 19andro in stacks a few times and it doesn’t seem to matter; it’s just too weak. But trenavar, dienedione, tren, dienelone, Trest, LMG, nandrolone are all things I would only recommend to folks looking at blast/cruise sooner rather than later ultimately. DHTs conversely are the easiest - no aromatization to estrogens, which are what really get the HPTA shut down. 19-Nors still convert to estrogens at varying degrees AND act on the PR additionally, and they tend to bind hard.

No don’t retract it at all. I wasnt saying you were wrong. I was just trying to learn more information to improve my own knowledge. I have too seen bad lipids on trest but always assumed it was due to the heavy AI doses. But maybe maybe trest does as well. I know a lot smart people say it’s best to keep 19nors below 200mg a week. I always kept trest around 150 or below. Still got great effects and didn’t need an AI. I believe a little estrogen helps lipids so that was my thought process. Once again, I really need bloods while on it so I can no for sure

I’m no expert which I why I was wanted to learn more about you saying it’s tough on lipids. I love trest and have stupidly never gotten bloods during the many times I’ve run it. So if it is messing up lipid profiles on its own, I certainly would want to know so I’m glad you shared that. Mind me asking what else you were taking when you got bloods?

I would bet a lot that the letro and arimidex usage is indeed to blame. Ralox, exemestane (almost no effect on lipids), lower doses of trest, trt amounts of test, and perhaps a touch of prami would be much easier on lipids.

 

[CATdiesel76]

I am similar, but I am only 29. 8 years of oral/transdermal cycling an average of 2x a year has been kind to me.

Only time I have was trenavar for 8 weeks, and it took a long time to really feel right. Like 8-10 weeks despite 6 weeks of SERM usage upon cessation. I have used 19andro in stacks a few times and it doesn’t seem to matter; it’s just too weak. But trenavar, dienedione, tren, dienelone, Trest, LMG, nandrolone are all things I would only recommend to folks looking at blast/cruise sooner rather than later ultimately. DHTs conversely are the easiest - no aromatization to estrogens, which are what really get the HPTA shut down. 19-Nors still convert to estrogens at varying degrees AND act on the PR additionally, and they tend to bind hard.




I would bet a lot that the letro and arimidex usage is indeed to blame. Ralox, exemestane (almost no effect on lipids), lower doses of trest, trt amounts of test, and perhaps a touch of prami would be much easier on lipids.

That’s exactly how I run it minus the prami. 150mg test/wk, 100-150 trest/wk and a tiny bit of exem every 2 or 3 days. Feel great and make good gains on it. Keeps me nice and lean as well. Highly recommended if you haven’t tried it

 

[Jinsun]

No don’t retract it at all. I wasnt saying you were wrong. I was just trying to learn more information to improve my own knowledge. I have too seen bad lipids on trest but always assumed it was due to the heavy AI doses. But maybe maybe trest does as well. I know a lot smart people say it’s best to keep 19nors below 200mg a week. I always kept trest around 150 or below. Still got great effects and didn’t need an AI. I believe a little estrogen helps lipids so that was my thought process. Once again, I really need bloods while on it so I can no for sure

I’m no expert which I why I was wanted to learn more about you saying it’s tough on lipids. I love trest and have stupidly never gotten bloods during the many times I’ve run it. So if it is messing up lipid profiles on its own, I certainly would want to know so I’m glad you shared that. Mind me asking what else you were taking when you got bloods?

More or less all anabolics, including test, have an impact on lipids. Excess amount of hormones down regulate hdl production. And this is not bc of estrogen.

 

[Hyde]

More or less all anabolics, including test, have an impact on lipids. Excess amount of hormones down regulate hdl production. And this is not bc of estrogen.

If anything estrogen will help keep lipids higher. It’s cardioprotective, to a degree at least.

 

[CATdiesel76]

More or less all anabolics, including test, have an impact on lipids. Excess amount of hormones down regulate hdl production. And this is not bc of estrogen.

Correct. The degree to which they impact them is what I was discussing. I wasn’t saying that estrogen was causing the negative effect on lipids, but rather the high doses of Adex, letro, etc that people use on trest to control estrogen which are known to trash lipids. As Hyde said though estrogen will actually improve lipids to an extent