Unanswered How comparable is 4-andro to actual test?

SuppBro

Member
Awards
0
Never took test or real AAS and not interested in the trouble and logistics of attaining them.

It would seem that 4-andro is the only PH that converts to actual test but some of it will convert to estrone before it becomes test, and than the test may get aromatized as well so it's more estrogenic than running just test. This would pose a problem if I wanted to run enough 4-andro to compare to 500ml of test per week.

I know that people run dry compounds along with to control the sides but does that actually reduce the conversion of 4-andro to estrone?
 
Matthersby

Matthersby

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
I’m sure you expected to get some answers like this, but I’d imagine you’re going to spend like $1200 trying to get the equivalent of 500mg of test per week out of 4-Andro. If it’s even possible.

Depending on your cycle history, there’s a dozen legal options that would yield real AAS results(well, because they are real aas, but still not scheduled or banned)
 

SuppBro

Member
Awards
0
I’m sure you expected to get some answers like this, but I’d imagine you’re going to spend like $1200 trying to get the equivalent of 500mg of test per week out of 4-Andro. If it’s even possible.

Depending on your cycle history, there’s a dozen legal options that would yield real AAS results(well, because they are real aas, but still not scheduled or banned)
Assuming this liposomal delivery really is 99% effective, plenty of these 4-andro products would be delivering more than 500mg a week, but not all of it becomes test. Basically expecting the answer you gave unless someone happens to know of some bloodwork postings.

For the most part its basically just DHEA's and SARMS now unless I'm missing something. If it's legal, it's on the table as an option.
 

SuppBro

Member
Awards
0
Are natural test boosters strong enough serve as a test base and combat lethargy while on something else like 1-testosterone / 1-andro?
 
maximillia

maximillia

Member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Are natural test boosters strong enough serve as a test base and combat lethargy while on something else like 1-testosterone / 1-andro?
No. The only thing I try to get out of them is some libido and even that is not a given once the cycle progresses. That said, 1-andro isn't that suppressive unless you are dosing super high, so you could get some libido out of it. You could try running a SERM on cycle to see if it keeps some test production up.
 
maximillia

maximillia

Member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Never took test or real AAS and not interested in the trouble and logistics of attaining them.

It would seem that 4-andro is the only PH that converts to actual test but some of it will convert to estrone before it becomes test, and than the test may get aromatized as well so it's more estrogenic than running just test. This would pose a problem if I wanted to run enough 4-andro to compare to 500ml of test per week.

I know that people run dry compounds along with to control the sides but does that actually reduce the conversion of 4-andro to estrone?
My advice would be to not waste money on 4- Andro. Unfortunately, it's not worth it, and the dosages you want to run will require a lot of money (also, I don't think it's possible to equal 500 mgs of test with 4-Andro). If money is no matter, then go bonkers. I would just do 1-andro or sarms instead.
 
Matthersby

Matthersby

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
Assuming this liposomal delivery really is 99% effective, plenty of these 4-andro products would be delivering more than 500mg a week, but not all of it becomes test. Basically expecting the answer you gave unless someone happens to know of some bloodwork postings.

For the most part its basically just DHEA's and SARMS now unless I'm missing something. If it's legal, it's on the table as an option.
Trestolone - the gold standard for legal aas at the moment but also the reason I ask about cycle experience.
DMZ and Msten - basically 2 of top 5 oral dht’s of all time.
Desoxy-T: masteron-like injectable that most don’t over the top love.
Dienolone: Praised as a far-less-side effect Tren, but only at high doses.
Hexadrone: off the chart A:A ratio, don’t know much about it but everyone’s seeming to be using it.
 
delsolrob

delsolrob

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Are natural test boosters strong enough serve as a test base and combat lethargy while on something else like 1-testosterone / 1-andro?
Dermacrine would be your most cost effective option. Topical 4-DHEA (4-andro) is also pretty darn effective.

Trest is def not for any beginner, you need to be prepared for a myriad of potential issues...
 
delsolrob

delsolrob

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar

JoePaul39

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
Trestolone - the gold standard for legal aas at the moment but also the reason I ask about cycle experience.
DMZ and Msten - basically 2 of top 5 oral dht’s of all time.
Desoxy-T: masteron-like injectable that most don’t over the top love.
Dienolone: Praised as a far-less-side effect Tren, but only at high doses.
Hexadrone: off the chart A:A ratio, don’t know much about it but everyone’s seeming to be using it.
Also M1A
 
Matthersby

Matthersby

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
Yeah, it was rereleased. I had good experiences with it. A lot of guys won't try it because it gets trash talked on here sometimes. But it worked for me.
Ah no, even some dhts like OG Stanodrol worked ok for not testosterone bases.
You just gotta use quite a bit to negate lethargy and stuff but it all depends on what you’re needing it for. Not wanting to trash your libido, etc etc.
You don’t NEED a test base, it’s just better, so if there’s something out there that can do the simple job of added energy and libido, I’m sure a lot of things will work.
But there’s probably nothing that’s going to touch 500mg test that you can buy legally.
 
Matthersby

Matthersby

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
I had thought it may still be unscheduled.
Ya, I would say with the available legal lineup, one could easily obtain the desired results.
Add in peptides, insulin, IGF, Sarms and any other various RC products, one could have an extremely legal offseason and keep up with someone outside the law.
This won’t last forever though.
 

SuppBro

Member
Awards
0
Trestolone - the gold standard for legal aas at the moment but also the reason I ask about cycle experience.
DMZ and Msten - basically 2 of top 5 oral dht’s of all time.
Desoxy-T: masteron-like injectable that most don’t over the top love.
Dienolone: Praised as a far-less-side effect Tren, but only at high doses.
Hexadrone: off the chart A:A ratio, don’t know much about it but everyone’s seeming to be using it.
These are what I've ran:
AndroHard & AndroDrive v3 together
AndroHard v3 alone
Some DHT PH from AMS. Forgot if it was Epiandro or R-andro based
Epiandrosterone
IML's Epi-Tren
BSL's Alpha-1 Max (M1T)

The last one gave me lethargy, not sure how much was a 1-testosterone issue rather than the M1T its self, I ran liv52 combined with NAC for liver support. I stopped the cycle 1/3rd of the way through and jumped to PCT after and haven't taken anything since.

I'll pass on Trestolone and look into the other's you listed.

Thank you to all of the other replies too, I read them all!
 

Lift4vita

New member
Awards
1
  • First Up Vote
Trestolone - the gold standard for legal aas at the moment but also the reason I ask about cycle experience.
DMZ and Msten - basically 2 of top 5 oral dht’s of all time.
Desoxy-T: masteron-like injectable that most don’t over the top love.
Dienolone: Praised as a far-less-side effect Tren, but only at high doses.
Hexadrone: off the chart A:A ratio, don’t know much about it but everyone’s seeming to be using it.
If trestolone was used in a low dosage transdermal administration would it be that difficult to deal with if it was just being used in lieu of actual test for a base to ward of lethargy?
 
delsolrob

delsolrob

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
If trestolone was used in a low dosage transdermal administration would it be that difficult to deal with if it was just being used in lieu of actual test for a base to ward of lethargy?
I would recommended virtus as the only OTC AI that could manage the estrogen sides...if even at .5ml/day
 
Wobmarvel

Wobmarvel

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Noob question but is trest and ment one and the same?
 
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Are natural test boosters strong enough serve as a test base and combat lethargy while on something else like 1-testosterone / 1-andro?
No. Natural test boosters work in one way; they lower SHBG in order to elevate free test. If you are on cycle your shbg is already low because most if not all aas lower shbg, and secondly, your test levels are either shutdown or severely suppressed, so there is nothing there to boost :) This things are only for natty's.

Assuming this liposomal delivery really is 99% effective, plenty of these 4-andro products would be delivering more than 500mg a week, but not all of it becomes test. Basically expecting the answer you gave unless someone happens to know of some bloodwork postings.

For the most part its basically just DHEA's and SARMS now unless I'm missing something. If it's legal, it's on the table as an option.
No. The problem with this prohormones are enzymes that convert them into active hormones (in the case of 4ad -> test), you don't have enough of them. I don't think it's possible to reach such a high number with 4ad yet alone with 4dhea. I don't know if you can achieve half of that.

Also, why are you so scared of estrogen? That is basically the thing you need/want from a test base...
 
Last edited:
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Also, buying real aas is not logistically hard at all. I mean, if you are used to bitcoin that is...
 
Renew1

Renew1

Legend
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
If trestolone was used in a low dosage transdermal administration would it be that difficult to deal with if it was just being used in lieu of actual test for a base to ward of lethargy?
I wouldn't recommend using a hardcore steroid to just ward off lethargy, unless you've already been running "hardcore" steroids.
It's one of the strongest steroids out there, and people are treating it like 4Andro.
 
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
I wouldn't recommend using a hardcore steroid to just ward off lethargy, unless you've already been running "hardcore" steroids.
It's one of the strongest steroids out there, and people are treating it like 4Andro.
Haven't used it yet, but what does a "hardcore" aas actually mean... It's all in the dosages. A small amount of it, just enough to twart lethargy, wouldn't really have sides eh?
 
Renew1

Renew1

Legend
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
Haven't used it yet, but what does a "hardcore" aas actually mean... It's all in the dosages. A small amount of it, just enough to twart lethargy, wouldn't really have sides eh?
If you had a small enough nuclear bomb, you could use it to kill a cockroach, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Hardcore steroids means one of the strongest steroids ever made. ... And one of the hardest to control sides.
 
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
If you had a small enough nuclear bomb, you could use it to kill a cockroach, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Hardcore steroids means one of the strongest steroids ever made. ... And one of the hardest to control sides.
But what is it about trest that is so hard to control? Estrogen? Does it have prolactin sides? Mental sides, to much aggression?

What I gather is that it's great as a base, much more then any other aromatisable oral. Dbol is not so great and DHEA is really only a bandage and even not that for many. 4ad is the best oral for a base obviously - as it's actually test - but it's rather expensive for a 12 week run. What would be the cost of trest, just as a base, for a 12 week run?
 

SuppBro

Member
Awards
0
No. The problem with this prohormones are enzymes that convert them into active hormones (in the case of 4ad -> test), you don't have enough of them. I don't think it's possible to reach such a high number with 4ad yet alone with 4dhea. I don't know if you can achieve half of that.

Also, why are you so scared of estrogen? That is basically the thing you need/want from a test base...
In other words a lot of the 4-DHEA will not hit enzymes before being flushed out or acting out their own direct effects on androgen receptors? Guess I shouldn't worry about 4-DHEA being too estrogenic when combined with another drier compound.

In the case of 4-DHEA from what I've read, this is what happens (may include more steps):
4-DHEA > Estrone
4-DHEA > Testosterone > Estrogen

It may be more androgenic than estrogenic overall but it's not clean as test, and some people get estrogen sides from test only cycles. I'm not so concerned about running a regular dose of of 4 and 1 together. I would like to run 500mg test so I can learn how my body reacts to that and I was hoping that 4-DHEA could substitute this.

Also, buying real aas is not logistically hard at all. I mean, if you are used to bitcoin that is...
Bitcoin is pseudo anonymous. I'm very well saby with cryptocurrency and I need to go onto an exchange to get it, which leaves the paper trail connecting me to those coins. Coin mixers aren't reliable and privacy coins are just temporarily anonymous since quantum computing will potentially break many modern cryptography protocols. You can't update a blockchain to be quantum proof and retroactively protect old transactions because anybody could have a saved copy of the blockchain prior that update. That old copy of the blockchain is a copy of the ledger from before the new encryption.

This may take longer than the statue of limitations but this sort of thing can be exposed in a data breach and ruin someones career in office.

Shipping is another thing. Only way I'm getting it is through someone IRL directly. Years ago I would have that connect but not anymore.
 
Last edited:
Hyde

Hyde

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
In other words a lot of the 4-DHEA will not hit enzymes before being flushed out or acting out their own direct effects on androgen receptors? Guess I shouldn't worry about 4-DHEA being too estrogenic when combined with another drier compound.

In the case of 4-DHEA from what I've read, this is what happens (may include more steps):
4-DHEA > Estrone
4-DHEA > Testosterone > Estrogen

It may be more androgenic than estrogenic overall but it's not clean as test, and some people get estrogen sides from test only cycles. I'm not so concerned about running a regular dose of of 4 and 1 together. I would like to run 500mg test so I can learn how my body reacts to that and I was hoping that 4-DHEA could substitute this.



Bitcoin is pseudo anonymous. I'm very well saby with cryptocurrency and I need to go onto an exchange to get it, which leaves the paper trail connecting me to those coins. Coin mixers aren't reliable and privacy coins are just temporarily anonymous since quantum computing will potentially break many modern cryptography protocols. You can't update a blockchain to be quantum proof and retroactively protect old transactions because anybody could have a saved copy of the blockchain prior that update. That old copy of the blockchain is a copy of the ledger from before the new encryption.

This may take longer than the statue of limitations but this sort of thing can be exposed in a data breach and ruin someones career in office.

Shipping is another thing. Only way I'm getting it is through someone IRL directly. Years ago I would have that connect but not anymore.
It cannot. I have pushed a lot of 4andro. A fucking LOT. A gram a day. It just doesn’t do very much more at all as the doses go up. For the reasons you’ve already worked out.

8 weeks of 4andro & 3AD (Enhanced Formulations or Gainbusters brands) with either 1andro, LGD, or Rad140 would be a great mild otc oral cycle.

Test, dht, anabolic. Shazam.
 
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
In other words a lot of the 4-DHEA will not hit enzymes before being flushed out or acting out their own direct effects on androgen receptors? Guess I shouldn't worry about 4-DHEA being too estrogenic when combined with another drier compound.

In the case of 4-DHEA from what I've read, this is what happens (may include more steps):
4-DHEA > Estrone
4-DHEA > Testosterone > Estrogen

It may be more androgenic than estrogenic overall but it's not clean as test, and some people get estrogen sides from test only cycles. I'm not so concerned about running a regular dose of of 4 and 1 together. I would like to run 500mg test so I can learn how my body reacts to that and I was hoping that 4-DHEA could substitute this.
It can substitute test yes, just not in the quantity you are mentioning. I did once app 360 mg's of 4ad and my test was really really low and my e2 was around 10. Basically it didn't work for me as a base. That was Cerberus v2 I think.

Estrogen sides come when estrogen is not controlled. You control estrogen with Ai's. Also you need to know how much estrogen you have in your blood serum. Also you must know how much the compounds, that you are taking, are converting to estrogen. This is done by taking a steady amount off a drug and then going to the lab, give blood and see the results. This process is really predictable with stuff like test e or test c, because they provide steady blood levels of testosterone. But with this supp companies you never know what you get. How much trest is actually in there, how much 4dhea is actually in there and what's the quality of it, etc.

4DHEA is a 2 step conversion to test and estrogen would then be the 3rd step.
 
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Bitcoin is pseudo anonymous. I'm very well saby with cryptocurrency and I need to go onto an exchange to get it, which leaves the paper trail connecting me to those coins. Coin mixers aren't reliable and privacy coins are just temporarily anonymous since quantum computing will potentially break many modern cryptography protocols. You can't update a blockchain to be quantum proof and retroactively protect old transactions because anybody could have a saved copy of the blockchain prior that update. That old copy of the blockchain is a copy of the ledger from before the new encryption.

This may take longer than the statue of limitations but this sort of thing can be exposed in a data breach and ruin someones career in office.

Shipping is another thing. Only way I'm getting it is through someone IRL directly. Years ago I would have that connect but not anymore.
Are you giving a bit to much into this maybe? You are just buying a small amount of aas, nobody is going to prosecute you for that. 99% your shipment wont be sized...
 

Lift4vita

New member
Awards
1
  • First Up Vote
I wouldn't recommend using a hardcore steroid to just ward off lethargy, unless you've already been running "hardcore" steroids.
It's one of the strongest steroids out there, and people are treating it like 4Andro.
So In the case of using something like msten or dam with rad 140 4 Andro would act as an effective test base?
 
Hyde

Hyde

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
So In the case of using something like msten or dam with rad 140 4 Andro would act as an effective test base?
Not really. I mean you’re still gonna feel like crap, lethargic, weak noodle & poor libido. Mix it with a DHT like Epiandrosterone or 3AD for better results - and these are only alright, not gonna take you were true testosterone would have. But they will make the cycle tolerable.
 
delsolrob

delsolrob

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
The benefits of topical delivery are not simply limited to increased bioavailability, the skin also holds many of the enzymes needed to convert to target steroids.
 
Cmseabee24

Cmseabee24

Member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
TD trest Ace is very effective and it’s really not hard to keep sides in check at a low dose 30mg daily I found is perfect. You will only have a problem if you don’t have all your stuff mapped out like any other compound. You could run 500mg of test and get gyno, bloating, etc. Everyone says it’s the strongest steroid on paper yes but it’s based on doasage.
 
CATdiesel76

CATdiesel76

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
Somebody was running about a gram of injectable 4-Dhea as a a legal test base and I believe it got their test levels in the high 700 range while on.

Wouldn’t be worth it IMO unless it was your only option
 
Renew1

Renew1

Legend
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
So In the case of using something like msten or dam with rad 140 4 Andro would act as an effective test base?
Like Hyde said, 4Andro (or Dermacrine, or a couple of others) will suffice to make your cycle tolerable. Heck Dermacrine even worked for me on Superdrol. If it can work for that cycle, it can work for any.
 
Last edited:
Renew1

Renew1

Legend
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
But what is it about trest that is so hard to control? Estrogen? Does it have prolactin sides? Mental sides, to much aggression?

What I gather is that it's great as a base, much more then any other aromatisable oral. Dbol is not so great and DHEA is really only a bandage and even not that for many. 4ad is the best oral for a base obviously - as it's actually test - but it's rather expensive for a 12 week run. What would be the cost of trest, just as a base, for a 12 week run?
Estrogen/Prolactin type sides are very difficult with Trest.

Trest isn't cheap either.
 
Nac

Nac

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
But what is it about trest that is so hard to control? Estrogen? Does it have prolactin sides? Mental sides, to much aggression?

What I gather is that it's great as a base, much more then any other aromatisable oral. Dbol is not so great and DHEA is really only a bandage and even not that for many. 4ad is the best oral for a base obviously - as it's actually test - but it's rather expensive for a 12 week run. What would be the cost of trest, just as a base, for a 12 week run?
The most significant things about trest, and probably the least amenable to "control", are the fact it will shut you down harder than any other drug, at any dose we bbers use, and it will tend to totally **** over your lipids. The shutdown is the most significaht though.

And then you have all the other potential sides already mentioned.
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
Like Hyde said, 4Andro (or Dermacrine, or a couple of others) will suffice to make your cycle tolerable. Heck Dermacrine even worked for me on Superdrol. If it can work for that cycle, it can work for any.
guys have been using dermacrine as a test base since 2009---it must work pretty good to still be around this long with no changes to formula.

hard to think of many other supplements that have been around for 10 years with no change to formula....hell, it's hard to think of many supps that have been around for 10 years period, let alone no changes.
 
Rad83

Rad83

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
Does 4 andro contribute any strength or size or am I better off going higher on the 1 andro ?
 
delsolrob

delsolrob

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
1-andro is better for muscle gains. 4-andro will offer some size and strength, but it's better stacked
 
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Like Hyde said, 4Andro (or Dermacrine, or a couple of others) will suffice to make your cycle tolerable. Heck Dermacrine even worked for me on Superdrol. If it can work for that cycle, it can work for any.
The lethargy on SD is not due to low test/e2. I did 20mg's with test at 500mg's or maybe it was 650... i don't remember. Anyway, lethargy was real. I quit SD before week 3. Felt like total garbage, couldn't move, just wanted to sleep, couldn't eat, etc. My piss also turned more brownish, so liver was definitely strained a lot.
 
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Does 4 andro contribute any strength or size or am I better off going higher on the 1 andro ?
1-andro converts to DHB aka 1-test. That's one of the strongest aas out there.
 
Jinsun

Jinsun

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Estrogen/Prolactin type sides are very difficult with Trest.

Trest isn't cheap either.
Ok. Prolactin sucks. But tbh both of these two probably aren't much of an issue at low doses. But otherwise, take an Ai and Caber, done. But yeah, in this regard, it's not for beginners.

@Nac shutdown, why would this be a bad side? You're shutdown on cycle either way. You saying that recovery/pct is somehow harder?
 
Renew1

Renew1

Legend
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
The lethargy on SD is not due to low test/e2. I did 20mg's with test at 500mg's or maybe it was 650... i don't remember. Anyway, lethargy was real. I quit SD before week 3. Felt like total garbage, couldn't move, just wanted to sleep, couldn't eat, etc. My piss also turned more brownish, so liver was definitely strained a lot.
It's both.
 

Lift4vita

New member
Awards
1
  • First Up Vote
guys have been using dermacrine as a test base since 2009---it must work pretty good to still be around this long with no changes to formula.

hard to think of many other supplements that have been around for 10 years with no change to formula....hell, it's hard to think of many supps that have been around for 10 years period, let alone no changes.
How does it work? I considered it but after reading and researching the ingredients it doesn’t seem like it should be effective
 
thebigt

thebigt

Legend
Awards
6
  • Best Answer
  • The BigT Award
  • Established
  • Legend!
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
How does it work? I considered it but after reading and researching the ingredients it doesn’t seem like it should be effective
google 'dermacrine write up' find the one by trauma1....everything you ever wanted to know about dermacrine is in that write up.
 
Nac

Nac

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
@Nac shutdown, why would this be a bad side? You're shutdown on cycle either way. You saying that recovery/pct is somehow harder?
I guess Id say its "bad" because Im reading some guys are considering "low dosing" it for the purposes of a supposed mild base to ward off lethargy. No doubts, it works great for that, but it comes at a potentially hefty price sides-wise. Sides and recovery are much more a concern than with something like epiandro, or 4andro, or dermacrine. Just depends on what youre prepared to risk and tolerate, what your other compounds are, etc
 

Similar threads


Top