Highish dose epistane questions

[PumpHouse]

I'm considering tossing epistane in at the end of my current cycle which will end with a powerlifting meet.

My concerns are obviously joint pain. I ran epi a long time back and hated the wrist and elbow pain. But I wasn't on test, so I'm hoping I can mess with my AI dose and balance it out so I can still get through the heavy lifts. Cissus didn't help much. I would run dbol or anadrol but I'm concerned about staying in my weight class, and anavar is too expensive, tbol doesn't sit well with me, and halotestin is on my list, but not sure I'm up for it yet.

So yeah, are the joint pains as bad while running test? What sort of doses would you all consider running while on 500 mgs test? Is there something I'm forgetting as far as other compounds that provide strength without too much water? How real are the anti-e properties of epi?

Anabolicholic any input on epistane? (I know you were running some high dose epi a while back)

 

[mw1]

I think you are putting to much value of the AI effects of Epi.
You best best is to invest in some Topical joint product like NOW Celadrin

 

[PumpHouse]

I don't think it's an incredible anti-e, that's why I'm thinking with test in the mix, then the joint issues won't be an issue. At least that's my question. Unless the joint pain is brought on from something else?

 

[AlexPowell]

What's that **** you can get from farm supply stores for horses?
Man I love that stuff. It's like a topical cream "not for human use" haha but it's honestly the best thing I've ever used

 

[jack_black]

DMSO

 

[GeekPoop]

What's that **** you can get from farm supply stores for horses?
Man I love that stuff. It's like a topical cream "not for human use" haha but it's honestly the best thing I've ever used

blue heat??

OP, the AI properties of epi mine as well be a myth.

 

[PumpHouse]

What's that **** you can get from farm supply stores for horses?
Man I love that stuff. It's like a topical cream "not for human use" haha but it's honestly the best thing I've ever used

Equiblock.

 

[PumpHouse]

blue heat??

OP, the AI properties of epi mine as well be a myth.

So then, the joint pain I got was not caused by lowered estro? Then even with test it would give joint pain?

 

[GeekPoop]

So then, the joint pain I got was not caused by lowered estro? Then even with test it would give joint pain?

probably from that, who knows. I don't know how you train either, that probably is something to consider as well.

an AI will lower estro significantly, epi not really anything.

 

[Montego1]

Epi does not eliminate estrogen. Very simple.

 

[tinytony]

So then, the joint pain I got was not caused by lowered estro? Then even with test it would give joint pain?

Epi is not AI but it can sort of metabolize estrogen and lower it a bit. Nothing that should be planned on or guaranteed though

 

[PumpHouse]

You guys are kind of missing the question here, joint dryness is a common side effect of epistane. Is this side effect mitigated by using it with test?

That's my only concern. Sorry if I'm being vague.

Let me rephrase, I want to take a highish dose of epistane (50-60 mgs) with 500 mgs of test. Should I be worried about the joint pain? Or will the extra water/aromatization from the test be enough to keep my joints lubricated? And do I need to mess with my AI dose at all?

 

[tinytony]

You guys are kind of missing the question here, joint dryness is a common side effect of epistane. Is this side effect mitigated by using it with test?

That's my only concern. Sorry if I'm being vague.

Let me rephrase, I want to take a highish dose of epistane (50-60 mgs) with 500 mgs of test. Should I be worried about the joint pain? Or will the extra water/aromatization from the test be enough to keep my joints lubricated? And do I need to mess with my AI dose at all?

I tend to believe it will remove joint pain. Wen I ran Msten I had joint dryness, pain, and now I'm running it with Test occasionally and absolutely no pain

 

[PumpHouse]

I tend to believe it will remove joint pain. Wen I ran Msten I had joint dryness, pain, and now I'm running it with Test occasionally and absolutely no pain

Thank you, that's more what I'm looking for.

Although, was the joint pain from Msten caused by just being able to lift more and beating them up, or was it similar to how epi dries joints out?

 

[tinytony]

Thank you, that's more what I'm looking for.

Although, was the joint pain from Msten caused by just being able to lift more and beating them up, or was it similar to how epi dries joints out?

It was similar to Epi only more so.. Msten definitely didn't make me lift more. I'm at a point where non of the dry compounds make me lift more. I need Test and Trest to lube my joints so I can go heavy enough

 

[AlexPowell]

Epistane like winstrol and most DHTs will pull water out of the skin and joints
I don't know the mechanism behind this but my understanding is it has little to do with estrogen

 

[tinytony]

Epistane like winstrol and most DHTs will pull water out of the skin and joints
I don't know the mechanism behind this but my understanding is it has little to do with estrogen

It can depend on the user. I've never got tested while on Epi or Msten or SD, but the lethargy I get is exactly identical to when on large dose of letro. And DHT compounds do affect Estrogen. Think, Proviron. It has a hardening effect, and fights against estrogen. It's the purpose people use it for. Where there is loads of DHT, it's my understanding that it's difficult for there to be much estrogen.

 

[AlexPowell]

It can depend on the user. I've never got tested while on Epi or Msten or SD, but the lethargy I get is exactly identical to when on large dose of letro. And DHT compounds do affect Estrogen. Think, Proviron. It has a hardening effect, and fights against estrogen. It's the purpose people use it for. Where there is loads of DHT, it's my understanding that it's difficult for there to be much estrogen.

Yes proviron acts as an AI
But epistane is not proviron, if that makes sense

 

[tinytony]

Yes proviron acts as an AI
But epistane is not proviron, if that makes sense

Lol I never said it was. I simply said that in lots of people it does drop estrogen to some extent. That much cannot be argued. What causes dryness? Not prolactin, not test, not Thyroid hormone. So DHT is responsible a bit. It dries you out. Via controlling estrogen so some extent, no matter how small

 

[AlexPowell]

I'm fairly confident it acts via some sort of non-estrogen related reverse-osmosis
As I said I don't understand it well enough to explain but estrogen is not the culprit here

 

[jbryand101b]

It has to do with glutocorticoids an stuff.
I'm too lazy to get the info for yall, but if you want, research that.

Epi prob lowers estrogen indirectly because it is a non aromatizing androgen, and once test production decreases d/t how potent epi binds with the ar, you'll have a decrease in aromatizable androgens.

 

[PumpHouse]

So the joint pain is more analogous to winstrol and it's effect on Collegen then? So the test would have zero influence on it. So chances are, running high doses of this stuff, for powerlifting would be a bad idea, unless I find a suitable joint product that'll actually help?

 

[AlexPowell]

So the joint pain is more analogous to winstrol and it's effect on Collegen then? So the test would have zero influence on it. So chances are, running high doses of this stuff, for powerlifting would be a bad idea, unless I find a suitable joint product that'll actually help?

What are your goals bro?

 

[jbryand101b]

So the joint pain is more analogous to winstrol and it's effect on Collegen then? So the test would have zero influence on it. So chances are, running high doses of this stuff, for powerlifting would be a bad idea, unless I find a suitable joint product that'll actually help?

Wet compounds are your best bet

 

[PumpHouse]

What are your goals bro?

Strength with minimal weight gain. I want to stay in my weight class but hopefully qualify for nationals.

 

[PumpHouse]

Wet compounds are your best bet

That's what it sounds like. Just not this time around.

 

[Sr_505]

You might could look into adding Deca at low dosages to lube your joints. I've heard of even around 200mgs a week really making a difference for joint pain.

 

[PumpHouse]

You might could look into adding Deca at low dosages to lube your joints. I've heard of even around 200mgs a week really making a difference for joint pain.

I've heard that too. Never used deca. I'm not looking to go crazy though with countless drugs. Epi looked appealing, but the last thing I want is joint pain. I'll probably just keep the test and keep it simple.

 

[AlexPowell]

Strength with minimal weight gain. I want to stay in my weight class but hopefully qualify for nationals.

What's your body fat like? A picture would give a better idea. You compete 198 right? When are nationals?
I compete in PL and strongman, total raw elite and make insane weight cuts for same day weigh-ins with great results btw- just so you know I'm not some guy parroting stupid information here

 

[PumpHouse]

Nationals aren't til late 2014, but I'm competing in April and I need class II. Which I easily had before an injury set me back. I'm feeling good now though but it's a process of becoming 100% again.

I compete 198 yes.

My bodyfat is not as low as it was before the injury (retinal detachment followed shortly by some nerve damage in my low back). Some definition in my stomach, but not lean. It is going down steadily.

I'm considering doing a water cut and shooting for 181, I've talked to the guys in the powerlifting section and will definitely consider it if I need to.

That being said, any input you have would be great, but, this thread was just about epi joint pain and that seems to be enough said there. I will PM you nearer to the meet and get some advice on water cutting though.

 

[AlexPowell]

Nationals aren't til late 2014, but I'm competing in April and I need class II. Which I easily had before an injury set me back. I'm feeling good now though but it's a process of becoming 100% again.

I compete 198 yes.

My bodyfat is not as low as it was before the injury (retinal detachment followed shortly by some nerve damage in my low back). Some definition in my stomach, but not lean. It is going down steadily.

I'm considering doing a water cut and shooting for 181, I've talked to the guys in the powerlifting section and will definitely consider it if I need to.

That being said, any input you have would be great, but, this thread was just about epi joint pain and that seems to be enough said there. I will PM you nearer to the meet and get some advice on water cutting though.

Alright bro, you can easily make 181 by April while increasing your total. Is this a 2h or 24h weigh in?
Lay your diet out like this:

First 14 days of the diet, no carbs at all. Keep calories wherever but make sure protein is high. Eggs > Red meat > seafood > poultry in that order but really eat what you enjoy the most but nutritionally this order is best.
One day a week, no food, protein shakes only. Keep protein at around 360g per day. Yeah this is a lot but so what?
After the 14 days, it should look like this:

Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday:
5-6 protein shakes throughout the day (and one overnight, which I'd leave on the toilet and chug while peeing). On two of these four days I typically substitute one shake at lunch with wings or other no-carb meat.
1500-2500 calories worth of meat, preferably on the bone, for your evening meal. If you're eating chicken, make sure you're eating the skin.
You might want to think about a Protein Sparing Modified Fast (nothing but shakes) on Monday as well, especially if you want to accelerate fatloss.

Wednesday:
5-6 protein shakes with a less calorically dense dinner (low fat). This is intended to rotate your calories and stimulate more fatloss.

Friday:
Low fat, medium carb day. This is a cheat day, but watered down. Lean beef of low carb tacos would be ideal. I'd stick to under 400g of carbohydrates on this day.

Saturday:
Protein Sparing Modified Fast. Nothing but shakes in water today. Quite frankly, you're likely going to want to skip the gym today and just occupy yourself otherwise, but if you do plan on training, be prepared for it to suck, so don't plan to hit PRs.

Sunday:
Keto day, but eat two meals today- one smaller and one larger. Make sure you train on this day- your lift will be awesome.


When you're leaner (you can see the top two abs clearly), you'll want to increase calories. Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday increase the calories to 2000-3000kcal a day. On two of these days, eat a 600-800kcal meal of bone-in meat in addition to your evening meal. Friday remains the same but in the evening you have a 3h cheat window in which you can literally eat anything you desire for these three hours.

For drugs, stick to a lowish dose of testosterone. No more than 400mg, this is plenty but you'll get away with much less (I take a quarter gram).
You'll want some permutation of the ECA/ECY stack as well. And no, your lifting won't suck doing this and if it does- it's in your head. If your lifts do go down (and they will a little dropping a weight class- especially squat) your wilks will increase, making you far more competitive.