Help with gyno (bloodwork included)

j3ffbeck

New member
hey guys, got a lil bit of a problemo here.

As I was wrapping up a 5wk PCT with nolva/clomid (20/20/20/10/10 and 50/50/50/25/25). I started getting nipple pain a couple days after PCT ended and now, there's a pea to peanut sized lump. Painful to touch etc. Lil bit of milk when squeeze, very very little. Have been trying not to **** with it though so I've only squeezed it once. The cycle was hdrol at 75mg for 6wks with the last week and a half at 100. I had zero problems on cycle, not itch/puffy nips, nothing. At first I didn't know if it was progesterone receptor related from the nolva, or if i got bunk pharma tabs and PCT just failed.

I just got my bloodtest back (about a week after PCT ended) and it seems like I got legit nolva/clomid tabs.

Bloodwork results
First the good:
Testosterone, serum was 1027 (ref 280-800)
Pre-cycle was at 480 so, yeah the tabs were good.
IGF-1 was normal 204 (ref 117-329)
Also, pretty much everything else was normal including lipids and liver values

Now the bad:
Estradiol was 52.4 (ref 7.6-42.6)
Pre-cycle was not even detectable (<7.6)
Dunno about progestrone as there wasn't an option for it


Long version and rationale:
I've hopped back on the nolva while i wait for ancillaries to arrive. I'm looking to hit the gyno with the standard letro up/down taper, but with Exemestane at the end for a week or 2 to help reduce any estrogen rebound from the letro. The reason I want to do Aromasin/Exemestane is nolva doesn't control estrogen and it seems that's what my problem is.

I know nolva is usually recomended after letro for rebound, but here's my issue with that. The nolva does nothing to prevent estro rebound, but just stops the estro from binding receptors. In my case, this sort of approach appears to already have resulted high circulating estrogen which, unfortunately for me, wants to stay around even after the nolva has left my system. Hence, the gyno after coming off nolva.

On the other hand, the high estrogen might be more so from the clomid as I've read a couple studies (a couple in women, and another in alcoholic but otherwise healthy males without cirrhosis) that showed clomid increased circulating estrogen and SHBG production. I dunno if nolva has the same effect. So, nolva following letro might be OK if the problem was clomid, but I'm still pretty concerned about estrogen remaining high during and after the post letro nolva phase.

This is why I'm thinking to follow letro with Aromasin/Extremestane instead. It seems like that could actually prevent estro rebound following the letro. My understanding is that letro is a competitive inhibitor of aromatase and that results in upregulation of aromatase production hence estrogen rebound after coming off the lestro. Aromasin/Extremestane, on the other hand, is a suicidal inhibitor and therefore, aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored when new enzyme is made. I'm hoping that that will result in a slower return of estrogen and help my body normalize.

Again though, I really know very little about this sort of thing and there are probably so important points that I'm missing here. I'd really appreciate any help with how to dose the Aromasin/Exemestane as I'm coming off the letro, but I welcome any comments/thoughts on this sensitive (lol, punny) issue.


Cliffs:
May have overdone the PCT and now have high testosterone and high estrogen. Lumps in right nip, probably estro related. Gonna run letro/Exemestane taper to kill it. Need help with Exemestane dosage.
 
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Yeah, it seems that your both test and estrogen are high.

Run 2.5mg letro and 20mg nolva per day.
Taper up the letro from 0.5mg to 2.5mg daily.
Then taper down the letro slowly while stilll taking the nolva.
After the cessation of letro, the nolva should be begun to be tapered down to avoid the rebound gyno.
 
you rebounded as it looks like to me. also why such a crazy pct for h-drol? that pct sceme i would run with a 16wk AAS cycle or something
 
Bump for this thread...Would you care to share your success or your current situation and give us some more details to whats worked or not worked for you?

It would be much appreciated :)
 
srry for the late reply fellas, i didn't think anyone cared, lol.

yeah, so after doing a bunch of research this is what I've concluded:

The problem:
Nolva and clomid both boost SHBG production, so combine that with high testosterone and thats a recipe for high estrogen which will easily be bound by the now hypersensitive estrogen receptors in my nips.

The solution
I thought it was just estrogen related but it ended up being more complex. I did the standard letro run and that shrunk the lump a little but it didn't go away. After a 5 weeks or so I couldn't stand the sides (joint's, libido, etc..) so I switched over to Extremestane (suicidal AI) to prevent rebound from the letro (competitive AI). I ran it 25/25/12.5/12.5. When I came off the lump was down from marble to pea sized and it stayed at that size until just recently when I started dosing Pramipexole.

In my research I had also seen that nolva leads up-regulation of prolactin and the progesterone receptor. Then I started seeing cases of people curing deca and tren gyno with Prami so I thought I'd give it a shot. Woof, leme tell you the first week the sides were awfull and I almost quit except for the gyno shrinking on an almost daily basis.

Prami is a very intriguing drug that has opposite effects at low doses (where most sides appear) as apposed to high doses (where sides go away and it actually significantly boosts GH release). For me the sides went away at 1mg per day, spread out over 4 doses. I'm gonna keep increasing the dose until I'm able to tolerate 3mg ED, and then start backing it down.

My perfect PCT for next time:
Nolva 20/20/20/10/10/0/0
Clomid 50/50/0/0/0/0/0
Extrem. 0/0/0/25/25/12.5/12.5

Also, I would most likely run the Prami throughout the cycle and PCT. I think it would've been great for improving sleep quality.


This has been working for me, so feel free to shoot me any questions
 
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j3ffbeck said:
My perfect PCT for next time:
Nolva 20/20/20/10/10
Clomid 50/50/0/0
Extrem. 0/0/0/25/25/12.5/12.5
Click to expand...

you're pct seems a bit extreme for hdol and most orals. why so much? i also do not like the extrem dosage without a taper back down.....
 
Thanks for the input guys.

I probably should've stated that I'm not trying to recommend this PCT to anyone else, but based on my experience so far I think it'll be the best fit for me and how my body responds to these chemicals. Really though, it's only one week longer than the commonly recommended one. As for the taper extrem, this dosage prevented any rebound from a month of letro at 2.5mg ED so I'm good with it, but again don't try this at home kids.

Why would you want to taper a suicidal AI (no rebound) anymore than that?
 
j3ffbeck said:
Why would you want to taper a suicidal AI (no rebound) anymore than that?
Click to expand...

the only reason i would suggest ending it differently is, i do not care to end an AI at a high dose. reason being, if there's any estro that might still "pop up" i like to give my body a little while to get used to not have an AI. if i end it high and simply remove it when it is so high there is no adjustment period for my body. slowly removing something (except ph/ps/aas) is something i was taught a while ago, and it has never failed me, even after all the cycles i done. not saying you're wrong and like you said, this is what works for you......how i do it works for me....different strokes for different folks
 
lennoxchi said:
the only reason i would suggest ending it differently is, i do not care to end an AI at a high dose. reason being, if there's any estro that might still "pop up" i like to give my body a little while to get used to not have an AI. if i end it high and simply remove it when it is so high there is no adjustment period for my body. slowly removing something (except ph/ps/aas) is something i was taught a while ago, and it has never failed me, even after all the cycles i done. not saying you're wrong and like you said, this is what works for you......how i do it works for me....different strokes for different folks
Click to expand...

good points and logical. It might be worthwhile to add in another week of the extrem. at 12.5 EOD.
 
So is say using Letro for 2 weeks taper down on the 3rd week and then using Aromasin for 3 weeks to prevent any estrogen rebound a good plan? Anyone have experience doing this?
 
Smittysan8970 said:
So is say using Letro for 2 weeks taper down on the 3rd week and then using Aromasin for 3 weeks to prevent any estrogen rebound a good plan? Anyone have experience doing this?
Click to expand...


Personally, I don't see the need to taper letro as it has a long half-life to elimination (7+ days if I remember quickly). What I did was start the Aromasin immediately after I gave up on the letro and ran it 25/25/12.5/12.5. Had no noticeable rebound, and let me tell you, judging from my rat's reaction, the research grade aromasin is some nasty tasting s stuff, lol.
 
chess315 said:
I dont mean to hijack but I am having the same problem with clomid can it in itself cause gyno
Click to expand...

Clomid in and of itself won't cause gyno, but it will cause upregulation of SHBG. This, when combined with a testosterone rich environment, can promote gyno formation once the clomid leaves your system.
 
j3ffbeck said:
Personally, I don't see the need to taper letro as it has a long half-life to elimination (7+ days if I remember quickly). What I did was start the Aromasin immediately after I gave up on the letro and ran it 25/25/12.5/12.5. Had no noticeable rebound, and let me tell you, judging from my rat's reaction, the research grade aromasin is some nasty tasting s stuff, lol.
Click to expand...

So a 3 week Letro cycle followed by a 2 week Aromasin/Exemestane cycle would essentially eliminate the prolactin nipple puffiness and enlargement that I have? Would it be ok to start another PH cycle immediately after effectively removing the gyno?
 
Smittysan8970 said:
So a 3 week Letro cycle followed by a 2 week Aromasin/Exemestane cycle would essentially eliminate the prolactin nipple puffiness and enlargement that I have? Would it be ok to start another PH cycle immediately after effectively removing the gyno?
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no, letro and Extrem are only gonna address any estrogen issues. For prolactin control you need to go with either Caber (pharma grade only) or Prami. I'm no expert on this stuff, but personally, if I was using AI's to combat gyno then I would treat that like a cycle. By that I mean I would wait at least 2 months after taking the last AI dose before I ran a cycle. But hey, that's just me, and I like to give my testosterone and estrogen plenty of time to normalize before I start ****ing with them again.

Prami/Caber on the other hand, I would have no problem running either of them during a cycle. So if you're sure its prolactin related you may be able to kill two birds with one stone.


Please though, don't just take my word for it. This is only what I would do in this situation. It might be an idea to start a new thread and get other opinions too. Either way, good luck bro!
 
j3ffbeck said:
no, letro and Extrem are only gonna address any estrogen issues. For prolactin control you need to go with either Caber (pharma grade only) or Prami. I'm no expert on this stuff, but personally, if I was using AI's to combat gyno then I would treat that like a cycle. By that I mean I would wait at least 2 months after taking the last AI dose before I ran a cycle. But hey, that's just me, and I like to give my testosterone and estrogen plenty of time to normalize before I start ****ing with them again.

Prami/Caber on the other hand, I would have no problem running either of them during a cycle. So if you're sure its prolactin related you may be able to kill two birds with one stone.


Please though, don't just take my word for it. This is only what I would do in this situation. It might be an idea to start a new thread and get other opinions too. Either way, good luck bro!
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure it is prolactin related. As far as I can tell there are no lumps and I have never lactated but rather have enlarged and puffy nipples. Which from what I have read, can be a side of a Tren cycle which is what I did over a year ago. I was kind of waiting for them to go away but they never have, so I figured I should address the issue before I decided to get on another PH cycle.

I will only be using Caber if I can somehow get a prescription from my doc. I have read that Letro is still suggested for prolactin gyno TREATMENT but estrogen rebound is always an issue which is why I was asking of the success of exemstane in this regard. Again, I will be running a H-drol cycle in the future with Vitex and P-5-P just in case, but its not really prevention I am worried about, I am worried about getting rid of it completely.

I will probably be starting a thread of my own in a bit, but I would rather have my facts somewhat straight beforehand...I have yet to receive a response to any of my previous threads...

Thanks in advance.
 
Sub. I'm Fightin Rebound Gyno right now
 
Smittysan8970 said:
I am pretty sure it is prolactin related. As far as I can tell there are no lumps and I have never lactated but rather have enlarged and puffy nipples. Which from what I have read, can be a side of a Tren cycle which is what I did over a year ago. I was kind of waiting for them to go away but they never have, so I figured I should address the issue before I decided to get on another PH cycle.

I will only be using Caber if I can somehow get a prescription from my doc. I have read that Letro is still suggested for prolactin gyno TREATMENT but estrogen rebound is always an issue which is why I was asking of the success of exemstane in this regard. Again, I will be running a H-drol cycle in the future with Vitex and P-5-P just in case, but its not really prevention I am worried about, I am worried about getting rid of it completely.

I will probably be starting a thread of my own in a bit, but I would rather have my facts somewhat straight beforehand...I have yet to receive a response to any of my previous threads...

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, unless you've got yourself a cool doc, he's unlikely to write you a script for off-label use of something as strong as Caber. Also, if there are no lumps then there is no gyno (enlarged glands) so you're good there.

Personally, I would skip the letro as it wrecked my joints, and just run prolactin control prior to and throughout my next cycle and PCT. I'd probably keep the prolactin control going for about another couple weeks after PCT was over, especially if nolva was used during PCT. Then I'd slowly taper it down and see if all is back to normal. Again, my choice here would be Prami because of it's GH boosting effects and I respond well to it. However, if the OTC stuff seems works for you, or if you'd rather use Caber, then go for it. Prami is not for everyone, just wiki the random ass sides that some people get from it.

That being said if you're dead set on giving letro a go, the Extreme taper that I did after it worked for me. Most people run nolva 20/10 though. Your call there bro.
 
Think I'm going to just run doses of P-5-P and vitex for the next 4-5 weeks while I'm on my clen cut and see how it goes from there.
 
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