Help, Problems after cycle....

luv2fight

New member
I will try to make this detailed yet short enough to get some responses. I have been lurking AM for some time now did most of my research here prior to my first injected cycle last year. I had done previous oral cycles and never had problems. Last year I ran a 14 weeks cycle of EQ and Sust. 600mg of EQ and 250mg of sust/ week. I gained 25 lbs on the cycle and was happy with my results. Aside from a few episodes of aggression, acne, BP of 145/100, other than that I didn't have any other major sides. One thing I notices after about 4 weeks on the cycle is that my right testicle starting having sharp aching pains for no reason. This seemed to go away as my nuts shrank and when the cycle ended I took 3 weeks off and ran a proper PCT of Nolva, exemestane, and HCG (AR PCT). At the time I didn't notice much else happening besides my nuts started killing me again but much worse now. (This has continued and is still an issue)

Fast forward three months. I started having chest pains that brought me to the ER. They ran EKG, stress test, and everything else you can think of. Everything came back normal.

Fast forward 2 more months. Im hope for Christmas break (College student) and Im still have nut pains and itchy nips, not painfull, just itchy, no puffiness though.
I start getting chest pains again and I schedule an appointment to see my family doc because I happen to be home. Before I can see my doc I wake up in the middle of the night with sweats, can breath, feeling pain in my chest and a fire like sensation. I have to run out of the bedroom as I didn't want to wake my fiancée. I lay on the couch and calm down but I cant seem to stop coughing and choking. I wake her up and we go to the emergency room. They do another ekg and its normal. They send me home.
The next morning I wake up and feel ****ty but better. I roll out of bed and grab a banana, half way through I feel like im completely full and im going to vomit. I feel like theres a tennis ball in my neck. Im freaking out a bit but I stay calm and just dont eat at all that day. The same night I wake up with the same problem but worse. We rush to the ER and the doctor starts a IV of protonics and says im having major acid reflux. I ended up going home and having to schedule an appt with a Gastro back in Ohio because my vacation was over.
I arrive back in Ohio and still cant seem to eat. They put me on a strict diet and had me on omeprazole which gave me horrible sides of dizziness. (so I thought) I took the omeprazole until I had my gastro appt. The doc schedule me for a endoscopy and found nothing but mild gastritis from the reflux. He kept me on omeprazole for 6 more weeks till the chest pains went away. At this time I had lost 40 lbs. All my muscle and any fat left over as well. I looked sickly to say the least. After the omeprazole I started feeling like I could eat a little more and started to maintain weight but cant seem to gain any.
Fast forward another 4 months and I still haven't gain any weight but my love handles and stomach are def fattier. No ability to keep any strength which is horrible because im a jiu jitsu fighter and ive dropped 4 weight classes.

Here is my current condition. I still have the testicle pain. still have itchy nips id say for a few hours once or twice a week. My appetite is minimal and Ive gained 2 lbs but def in fat. My sleep is all jack up, waking numerous times a night and my dizziness and lack of focus is horrible. Throughout this entire thing I have had the worst anxiety and depression. I used to be able to drink 4 redbulls and fall asleep. Now I drink a cup of green tea and I feel like I need to rip my skin off. I told my family doc this and he had me do some blood tests. Everything was normal ( I will post results) with the exception of what I think is low d3 of 40. He tells me to give it some time and "things should get better". I give it a few more weeks and it doesn't. I ask him to run some hormone tests and he denies and says I have no reason to get them done. He prescribes me and SSRI that I refuse to fill. I then ask for a reference for an endo here in Ohio and he agrees.
I see the endo last week and he says he wants to test my thyroid, glucose tolerance. a urine vma and my total test, I agree. I received my results back today and don't have a follow up with him until the 16th.

So I guess my question is does anyone seem to have any idea whats wrong with me and if not. What other tests should I ask for if any? Is my test low?

BTW ive never had anxiety or depression problems before and non of my direct family have any type of psychological condition that they have to medicate for.
 
Chest pain is sometime correlated to low estrogen.

However, I'm subbing because I'm curious to the reason behind the testicle pain. Hopefully someone can shed some light.
 
Test results are as follows:


FEBRUARY
Albunim 4.9gm/dl
alkaline phostphatase 55 units/L
ALT 24 units/L
AST 27 units/L
Bilirubin, total 1.omg/dl
BUN 15 mg/dl
Calcium 10.2 mg/dl
Creatinine 1.0 mg/dl
Sodium 137 meq/l
Potassium 4.1 meq/l
Chloride 107 meq/l
CO2 (L)22 meq/l
Glucose level 80mg/dl
Total Protein 8.0gm/dl
Cholesterol 112mg/dl
Triglyceride 69 mg/dl
HDL 30 mg/dl
LDL, direct 72 mg/dl
TSH 3rd gen .850 mclU/ml

MAY
Glucose fasting 2hr tolerance 99 mg/dl
Glucose 1 hr 82 mg/dl
Glucose 2 hr 70 mg/dl
T3(free) 3.01 pg/mL
T4(free) 1.03 ng/dl
Thryroid peroxidase antibodies .3 IU/ml
TSH 3rd .961 mclU/ml
LH 1.9 mlU/ml
Total Testosterone Level 339 ng/dl
 
you would get more help if you posted this over in the anti aging forum. I can tell you right now that your LH levels are low, and I would say that's possibly why your test levels aren't that great, but they aren't horrible. I'd try a restart protocol with clomid.
 
Well, here's the things that stuck out to me:
1. Your EQ dosage was way too high and your Sustanon, which is a crappy steroid anyway, was way too low.
2. hCG is meant for on cycle, not for PCT
3. You didn't include your doses and duration for your PCT.

What you may need to do is, more or less, another micro-PCT. Not at full does, but you'll definitely want to get some Clomid, which is often used in situations like this. You do not want to run an AI or hCG again.
 
Here is my PCT that I followed isteroids.com/steroids/Post%20Cycle%20Threapy%20(PCT).html

As far as a clomid cycle. Ill ask the endocrin. Does anyone else have any suggestions of further tests I should as for or where I should go from here? Or what to even say to this dude.
 
Here is my PCT that I followed isteroids.com/steroids/Post%20Cycle%20Threapy%20(PCT).html

As far as a clomid cycle. Ill ask the endocrin. Does anyone else have any suggestions of further tests I should as for or where I should go from here? Or what to even say to this dude.

pm sent
 
Update... I went back for my follow up. The Doc told me my LH and Test levels were normal. I told him I thought they were low for a healthy living 26 year old male and thought it would be wise to check them again as well as my free test. He also decided to test my fsh (no idea why). The only thing he seemed to want to talk about was that I am hypoglycemic and that I needed to get a fasting insulin test. He was also concerned with my hunger problems as he said hypoglycemics are usually frequently hungry, which I am not. I have no hunger at all... Almost ever. Every couple of days I feel hungry in the morning. Otherwise than that I never have hunger pains like I used to, I used to smash 7k calories a day when bulking. Now I cant eat 2k calories and cant stop losing weight. currently weighing in at 158. As always any light shed would be greatly appreciated.

BTW I have not cured but really eased my anxiety with L-Theanine. It really takes the edge off. Still cant touch caffeine though.
 
Well, here's the things that stuck out to me:
2. hCG is meant for on cycle, not for PCT

many experts in the field of hpta function recovery after usage of androgens seem to disagree with you.

hcg can be used if one knows how properly to help prevent testicular desensitization on cycle, but for those that dont, clomid, nolvadex and hcg all have a critical role in recovering normal hpta function even after a cycle of supraphysiological dosages of test c & nandrolone for 12 weeks.

a quick outline of the protocol more commonly known as the "p.o.w.e.r. pct plan" (Program for Wellness Restoration) looks like this as described in anabolics 9th edition.
the published study: Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed

Note 1:
According to Dr. Michael Scally, the protocol described in Llewelly’s book has been updated. – But it has changed minimally, he said. – Now I extend the hCG duration by using 2,000 IU, now 10 shots total. The tamoxifen is 20 MG PO BID.

Note 2:
About Dr. Michael Scally

Dr. Scally’s education includes a double degree major in Chemistry (1975) and Life Sciences (1975) from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) Cambridge, MA. Following, from 1975-1980, in the M.I.T. Division of Brain Sciences & Neuroendocrinology Dr. Scally researched and published investigations on neurotransmitter relationships.1 Dr. Scally's research included involvement and participation in the earliest studies detailing the role of tryptophan, serotonin, and depression. During this time, he entered the prestigious Health Sciences & Technology Program, a collaboration of M.I.T. and Harvard Medical School. In June 1980, Dr. Scally was awarded by Harvard Medical School a Doctorate of Medicine, M.D. Continuing his education, Dr. Scally trained at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Southwestern Medical School. Scally completed the first year of postgraduate medical residency in general surgery followed by postgraduate medical residency in anesthesiology.

Consultations. Contact Dr. Scally at [email protected] or [email protected]. Dr. Scally has personally cared for thousands of individuals using AAS, particularly for anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism. DONATIONS ARE NEEDED AND APPRECIATED AT Invalid Link Removed.

Buy his book: Invalid Link Removed

Note 3:
About William Llewellyn

William Llewellyn is a world-renowned foremost authority on anabolic substances and its effects on muscular performance. An accomplished research scientist, author, publisher, inventor, columnist, and company CEO in the field of sports nutrition and anabolic substances, Llewellyn has been featured in ESPN Magazine, Washington Post, Fox News Channel, ESPN Television, NPR News, ESPN Radio and other national and regional TV / Radio news programs.
In addition to writing the Anabolics books, Llewellyn also publishes Body of Science Magazine, a quarterly publication dedicated to the "understanding of sports enhancement." He writes a monthly column for Muscular Development, and has written numerous articles for other bodybuilding publications including Ironman Magazine, Exercise for Men Only, and Natural Muscle.
During his fifteen years of anabolic research, Llewellyn has made several important scientific discoveries. His latest discovery of arachidonic acid has been patented for its anabolic properties and its "use as a method of increasing skeletal muscle mass."

Buy his book: Invalid Link Removed

Note 4:
PoWeR : Program for Wellness Restoration website - Invalid Link Removed
-------------------------------------
just saying, either way can be used. I havn't seen any data based studies on using hcg during a cycle of supraphysiological dosages of steroids for 12 or more weeks, but i also havn't specifically looked.
 
Ask Michael Scally


Question:
What’s the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day.

What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 units to play it safe. Others say anywhere from 500 to 2500 units at a time…Isn’t that a bit much ?

What about the length of time? I hear two clinics suggest 10 days; others say 3-5 weeks. Where does all this come from and who’s right?


ANSWER:
Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for two reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to ‘push’ the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.
 
Has your doctor brought up the possibility that you have an anxiety disorder? Some of what you describe sounds like panic attacks.
 
Yes, He asked if there was any psychological disorders documented in my direct family. There aren't. Nor have I ever been diagnosed with anything except PTSD after a bad car accident 9 years ago which effected me for about 6 months. I do feel like they are anxiety-panic attacks but I have never had any previous condition anything like this before this cycle. Thats what I don't understand.
 
im sorry to hear that. you did everything wright...wait 3 weeks..solid PCT.
how are your test levels?
idk man....you even used HCG. some people who dont recover after a cycle would run low dose clomid + hcg. it should "restart" you.
 
Anybody know of an endo in the mid west thats willing to work with guys? My doc seems to thing my test level of 339 is normal. Im willing to travel at this point.
 
even though since you asked this question it makes me believe you ignored the information I went and found for you, which you are too lazy to do yourself, I will re copy this for you so your dumba** can get help. :D

Consultations. Contact Dr. Scally at [email protected] or [email protected]. Dr. Scally has personally cared for thousands of individuals using AAS, particularly for anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism.
 
Update
My endocrin said that my test levels were low because I took the test at 1 in the afternoon and that I should get them checked at 8am for more accurate results. So I did, he also tested free, prolactin and fsh and a few others. Let me know what you guys think.

FSH 2.2mlU/ml
Prolactin 8.1 ng/ml
B12 780pg/ml
Folate 15.5 ng/ml
12 hour fasting insulin 4.2 mU/L
Total test 377 ng/ml
Free test 75 pg/mL
SHBG 28 nmol/L
 
All I can say is I do not think the mjority of the problems are related to the cycle some of them are.I cant believe you ran eq to hight and test so low.Its ususlly the opisite, eq is usually 400mg and test 500mg or more.Iching nipples is onset of gyno the HCG might have been fake or not taken correctly.the system you stated sound liek a disese more than side effects.Only a doc can help
 
Sounds like you have at least 2 problems there, 1 insulin issues - these can cause all of your anxiety issue, weight loss, and lack of appetite. Relatively Low test levels. If you are worried about your testosterone levels everyone has given you good options. There is also a new PCT substance that is a one time shot it is called Triptorelin. You may want to give that a shot.

However before any of that I would have a reactive blood sugar test and find out what is going on there. Insulin issues should not be taken lightly, to much or too little can both cause death. Forget about your testicles and fix the other part first or at least fix that part while trying to figure out the testosterone issue. Although your testosterone levels are not low they are on the low end of normal but not as important as finding out what is wrong with the blood sugar.

By the way do you have any lumps or anything on your testes? If you haven't done so, squeeze around on them to see and if so let the Dr know.
 
Update
My endocrin said that my test levels were low because I took the test at 1 in the afternoon and that I should get them checked at 8am for more accurate results. So I did, he also tested free, prolactin and fsh and a few others. Let me know what you guys think.

FSH 2.2mlU/ml
Prolactin 8.1 ng/ml
B12 780pg/ml
Folate 15.5 ng/ml
12 hour fasting insulin 4.2 mU/L
Total test 377 ng/ml
Free test 75 pg/mL
SHBG 28 nmol/L

Do you have the reference ranges for these numbers? There are several different methods that labs use for measuring testosterone and they all have slightly different normal ranges.

Also, if you are having trouble sleeping, a lack of sleep, and stress as well, can drag down your T values as well.

Maybe a urologist would be better able to investigate the testicular pain?
 
SORRY here are the ranges

Glucose level 85 mg/dl ( 70-108)
FSH 2.2mlU/ml ( .9-11.0)
Prolactin 8.1 ng/ml None given
B12 780pg/ml ( 211-911)
Folate 15.5 ng/ml ( 5.4-24)
12 hour fasting insulin 4.2 mU/L Im not really sure how to read this so I will write everything it says.
Reference range random: 3-23
30 min: 20-112
60 min: 29-88
90 min: 26-84
120 min: 22-79

This confused me but that's what they have on the paper.

Total test 377 ng/ml 300-1080
Free test 75 pg/mL 47-244
SHBG 28 nmol/L 11-80

MrKleen looking at these numbers I assumed they were normal and I don't have a follow up appointment until September. Should I be concerned?
 
Well for being 26 years old I would say that your test is lower than one would expect. As a matter of fact mine was about 325ng/ml when I had it tested 12 days into pct last year and I was shut down hard from Super-DMZ. I would expect someone who was 26 to be over 500 for sure. Free test isn't too bad but a nice testophen or divanilly supp can raise that quite a bit. I would go see an HRT specialist and tell him your story. I am sure you wont be the first AAS user to go to them to try to get things resolved.
 
Your testosterone is on the low side of normal, but I honestly think you need to get your anxiety under control first. If you're not interested in the SSRI, try doing some CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) first. Basically, CBT is a fancy way of saying "anxiety management techniques."
 
Your testosterone is on the low side of normal, but I honestly think you need to get your anxiety under control first. If you're not interested in the SSRI, try doing some CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) first. Basically, CBT is a fancy way of saying "anxiety management techniques."

You happen to have any links or information on these CBT's. My wife has anxiety issues too.

I will say that lower testosterone and high cortisol could cause anxiety too. I would avoid most the SSRI's like the plague personally. My wife has been put on a few and they only made her worse, or dumbed down to the point she didn't feel anything. Way too many sides they don't mention like nervous ticks and other things that are no bueno.

Phenibut helps my wife with anxiety. Also she takes Zanex as needed. Not a daily thing just when she feels the anxiety welling up.
 
Your testosterone is on the low side of normal, but I honestly think you need to get your anxiety under control first. If you're not interested in the SSRI, try doing some CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) first. Basically, CBT is a fancy way of saying "anxiety management techniques."

Yea I totally agree with you its my priority issue but I feel like it comes from the digestive problem im still having. I have another endoscopy on the 3rd and we'll go from there. As far as CBT goes I know what it is, Im not a psych major but I've had my share of elective classes. I've asked around and haven't found a therapist worth going to in my area, even my abnormal psych professor couldn't refer me to anyone that wasn't 1.5 hours away.

Initially I couldn't sleep it was so bad. I was drinking chamomile teas which kinda helped. Tried melatonin which made me wake up with instant panic attacks, no idea why but I dont plan on trying it again. So far I've found if I drink ginger (ginger root slow boiled for about and hour) about 20 minutes before my meals the digestion issues are helped tremendously. As far as anxiety goes the only things thats worked for me is L-theanine and even thats not 100%. BTW don't mix Tyrosine and L-theanine.
 
UPDATE:
I had my second endoscopy and everything came back normal with the exception of "inflammation of the stomach lining" the doc said. I had a gastric motility test which also came back normal.

I had my follow up with my endo who finally admitted that my test was low but refused to prescribe, saying that I was to young and my insurance wouldn't cover it. He seems way more concerned with my hypoglycemia and my testicular pain. I also had some prostate pain which he examined and he said the prostate was normal size. He prescribed me Trimethoprim for 90 days at 100mgs/day. He says that there's probably some bacteria messing the interaction between my prostate and testis up, which I personally think is rubbish but whatever. I then got home and realized he had prescribed me 3 months of an antibiotic which I am not cool with. I don't take antibiotics unless absolutely necessarily. When I looked up the typical procedure for this medication its for urinary and bladder infections and is prescribed for 10 days and twice a day. Anyone think this doctor is a moron? or am I just playing doctor to much myself? He wants me to take the script then retest my levels in 3 then 6 months. Is he just putting me off?

BTW he also made the comment again, your to hairy to have low testosterone.
 
Update:

The Endo gave me paperwork to go back 3 and 6 months later to test my Total Test LH and FSH. I will have to check the LH and FSH and report later but the Total Test is now 277ng with a range of 300-1000. What to do now because he will not prescribe me anything because of my age.
 
Update... I went back for my follow up. The Doc told me my LH and Test levels were normal. I told him I thought they were low for a healthy living 26 year old male and thought it would be wise to check them again as well as my free test. He also decided to test my fsh (no idea why). The only thing he seemed to want to talk about was that I am hypoglycemic and that I needed to get a fasting insulin test. He was also concerned with my hunger problems as he said hypoglycemics are usually frequently hungry, which I am not. I have no hunger at all... Almost ever. Every couple of days I feel hungry in the morning. Otherwise than that I never have hunger pains like I used to, I used to smash 7k calories a day when bulking. Now I cant eat 2k calories and cant stop losing weight. currently weighing in at 158. As always any light shed would be greatly appreciated.

BTW I have not cured but really eased my anxiety with L-Theanine. It really takes the edge off. Still cant touch caffeine though.

Anxiety sounds like a culprit here. Maybe not sole issue, but a primary issue with chest pains, breathing and etc. Not dogging you or anything, but your post even reflect anxiety. Do you think about or focus on your issues a whole lot throughout the day. Maybe try some hot yoga, tai chi or long walks. May sound goofy, but might help and much better than jumping on Xanax or Ativan.
 
Anxiety sounds like a culprit here. Maybe not sole issue, but a primary issue with chest pains, breathing and etc. Not dogging you or anything, but your post even reflect anxiety. Do you think about or focus on your issues a whole lot throughout the day. Maybe try some hot yoga, tai chi or long walks. May sound goofy, but might help and much better than jumping on Xanax or Ativan.

My anxiety issues came from my digestive problems. I had a constant fear of a heart attack after my father had on the summer before last and these problems started shortly after. I have control of my issues with pepcid daily and have also eliminated almost all anxiety issues. I'm even able to drink coffee regularly again and no more panic attacks. I have been good with these issues for about 3 months prior to these last blood tests. BTW I do Jiu Jitsu and it helps a lot.
 
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