Help me understand whats going on with my body (Anxiety related)

[DoubleM101]

Long story short. I´m suffering from chronic Anxiety (GAD, Agoraphobia, Panic Attacks and mild OCD) for some time.

For the last years i tried many different natural supplements with little or no relief. About prescription drugs i only take Alprazolam in low dosages when needed which i avoid at all costs and even that isn't a miracle. I feel some relaxion but those damn thoughts are still there.

Main problem is the anticipatory anxiety. As soon as i know i have to go somewhere or doing something out of the routine a million thoughts shows up and i imagine the worst possible scenarios. Usually the more time i'm in the situation, the anxiety gets more managable. But now, a curious fact. As soon as the "complicated" situation is over, i feel like the superman. Anxiety completely vanish and i feel the "normal" me like i could face everything on earth in that moment. I feel really happy and relieved.

I'll give an example. Even today, after the lunch i had a dental appointment which was causing me a lot of anticipatory anxiety. During the morning i had to do something else which usually causes me anxiety too and i had to avoid it. Went to the appointment and as soon as the Doctor said "It's done" i really forgot what anxiety was. I felt really well and happy. And guess what. After, since i was feeling so good, i decided to do the other thing i avoided in the morning and it was a piece of cake. No anxiety at all. Usually this feeling remains at full strength for a couple of hours but it's still notorious for the rest of the day until i fall asleep. Then it seems to reset during the night and i wake up the "old" me.

I know this a complex matter and i'm not hoping for a "miracle" supplement or cure because honestly i really don't believe one exists but i hope someone can help me understand what happens with my body to feel so good after these situations. I'm sure there's a chemical reaction... Some hormonal change or something. Maybe it's a start to understand where should i focus to fight the anxiety. I'm starting to suspect it could be related with serotonin but honestly i hope it would be something else because the last thing i want to take is a SSRI.

 

[cubsfan815]

Hmm.. possible endorphin release of the fear being over?

Have you ever talked to a professional to see if they can see where the anxiety is stemming from? Not like a pill pushing Dr, but maybe an alternative.

 

[Aleksandar37]

You're feeling relief. Your anxiety is coming from anticipation as you've already realized. You fear the unknown and that is quite normal. Check out anxietycoach.com and two of his books you can get through there: The Worry Trick and Panic Attacks Workbook. They're both extremely practical and work.

 

[kisaj]

Anticipatory anxiety is usually classified as Social Anxiety. You realize there is nothing to worry about, but you can't control thoughts of "what if" and dread, then that turns into thoughts of escape. It is more common that you'd believe and normal to a degree. I used to face it at a minor level, but as someone that routinely speaks in front of rooms of people, it felt like the biggest weight on my shoulders.

Two things- First, that feeling you got after the dentist, you need to be in that situation more. You may have to find situations that are uncomfortable, but you need to start to retrain your mind to understand the feeling of the relief and also to know that the dread is unfounded. Remember the old "picture everyone in their underwear" trick they used to tell people before a speech? Well, it works in a sense, if you realize that people around you each have their own "issue" or worry and aren't talking about it. So, you are normal, you just happen to have more of the fight or flight response and need to try to control it.

Secondly, supplements can help a lot in this situation and really got me through many times I wasn't sure if I could.
1) Aniracetam- in my mind, this is the king. Prescription in several countries, but OTC in U.S. This has mid-level anxiolytic properties, but shines as on top of that, it really helps with compartmentalization of thoughts, speech fluidity, and recall. These qualities in themselves help with SA tremendously because we tend to "freeze up" when we feel anxiety coming on and this clouds thoughts. I've had times when I could feel it coming and yet I was using words I honestly don't remember learning and feeling very confident in my talking, which led to me controlling my pending anxiety.

2) Propranolol- This was originally introduced as a BP medication, but found that it is extremely effective for anxiety, SA specifically. It does lower BP, so need to be aware of that, but it also reduces or removes altogether, the physical traits of SA. The flushing of skin, sweating, and shaky voice. So while it doesn't control the anxiety inside or act as an anxiolytic, it masks all the physical symptoms which helps with confidence because even if you are feeling nervous inside, it doesn't show. Over time, you realize that no one is the wiser about how uncomfortable you are and this can help start to reduce the feeling.

3) KSM-66- we all know ashwagandha around here and KSM-66 is the best. This should be a staple IMO daily as it is a powerful adaptogen and helps your body maintain and deal with stress. There are physical consequences with prolonged stress and KSM-66 helps alleviate that and is good for general relaxation.

4) St Johns Wort- this can interfere with some scripts, so be aware before taking. It is great for depression and shown to work very well, but also helps with anxiety.

5) L-theanine- I only bring this up because it works to calm the mind and increase alpha waves, which a lot of people find to be beneficial with anxiety. For me, it makes my mind slow and relaxed so I could only take it at night which defeated the purpose. However, not everyone is affected like this so it could be an option to look at.

6) Kratom- I am hesitant to mention this as some people are cautious due to it being an opioid agonist and there is a tolerance and mild WD that can be associated, but used responsibly, it is absolutely incredible and powerful. One small dose will obliterate any feeling of anxiety and it is compounding as the half life is very long. So it isn't needed everyday to feel the overall effects, but can be used situational to deal with very stressful or anxious times. For me, the most potent anxiolytic supplements in my arsenal are Aniracetam and Kratom.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[rascal14]

There's already lots of great options given in here. I have anxiety as well, but doesn't sound nearly as bad as you.

I will take Klonopin once every 1-2 weeks either Sunday night before the week starts, or the night before something that I am anxious about and know I won't be able to sleep. The Klonopin will help me for the following day into the morning of the second day after.

I take Kratom 5-6 nights a week, and then a few day break every couple of weeks. I don't recommend taking it this often, but it just makes a huge difference in my mood. I need a lot (10-12g) but only take it once a night, and it helps during the day as well.

Propranolol is great, I got a prescription for it after recommendations by the others in this thread. My doctor wanted me to take it daily, but I got too light headed doing that. I now just take 80mg ER in the morning before I will be nervous or have to do a presentation and it reduces my anxiety by about 75% and makes me talk as if I'm 110% confident in everything I do.

The only other thing I would recommend would be Agmatine. I definitely notice a slight relaxation after continued use, I don't nearly get as mad at smaller things when using it, and it can help with Kratom tolerance and withdrawals.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Awesome list, kisaj! My prescription preferences are propranolol and then xanax.

 

[Aleksandar37]

The only other thing I would recommend would be Agmatine. I definitely notice a slight relaxation after continued use, I don't nearly get as mad at smaller things when using it, and it can help with Kratom tolerance and withdrawals.

I've never tried agmatine for this, but will definitely experiment with it.

 

[rascal14]

I've never tried agmatine for this, but will definitely experiment with it.

It's very subtle. The easiest way for me to tell is after several days of re starting it I notice how much less argumentative and mad I get with the girlfriend. Lol

 

[Aleksandar37]

It's very subtle. The easiest way for me to tell is after several days of re starting it I notice how much less argumentative and mad I get with the girlfriend. Lol

Don't tell mine or she might start putting it in my water lol

 

[rascal14]

Don't tell mine or she might start putting it in my water lol

Lol that's funny, I tried sneaking it into her water because she wouldn't take it consistently but the taste makes that impossible to do without her knowing.

 

[Infiknite]

You mention still having "thoughts." Try incorporating meditation. Daily meditation helps me so much in relieving anxiety, just as well (or better) than supplements. It kind of lets you experience your thoughts from a different perspective and allows you to become aware of them and not attached to them, which causes anxiety. Of the supplements mentioned l theanine is great and is a staple for me, aswell as ashwagandha. Propranolol I would avoid, its really only good for public speaking where you wanna control your heart rate etc. The downside of it is that it tends to make me depressed.

 

[Slimshoddy]

Propranolol is great, I got a prescription for it after recommendations by the others in this thread. My doctor wanted me to take it daily, but I got too light headed doing that. I now just take 80mg ER in the morning before I will be nervous or have to do a presentation and it reduces my anxiety by about 75% and makes me talk as if I'm 110% confident in everything I do.

Some great advice in here. I have 10mg Propranolol prescribed but have not taken them yet, I think it's upto 4 x times a day max.

Do you take 80mg? In one go? Not sure what ER means?

Just checking as I have a big presentation coming up next week and im feeling anxious so will give it a try.

Thanks

 

[kisaj]

Some great advice in here. I have 10mg Propranolol prescribed but have not taken them yet, I think it's upto 4 x times a day max.

Do you take 80mg? In one go? Not sure what ER means?

Just checking as I have a big presentation coming up next week and im feeling anxious so will give it a try.

Thanks

Extended Release

I would try it before your speech so you can assess how much and when to take. I found that 20mg 90min-2 hours is when it really starts to shine. It will last about 8 hours, but the half life is much longer. Some doctors recommend taking the night before.

 

[Slimshoddy]

Can it effect sleep, if I tried it late in the afternoon/evening?

 

[kisaj]

The only effect it may have is some drowsiness.

 

[ddfox]

kisaj Curious your thoughts on ...

Sam-e & phenibut for your list. Thx

 

[kisaj]

I take Sam-e daily but I wouldn't consider it great for anxiety. It is good for overall mood balance.

I don't go near phenibut anymore. It is one of those supplements that I have very bad experiences with and the WD from only taking a few days was unbearable. Some people have good experiences with it, but in my experience, the tolerance builds incredibly fast so it can only be taken 2-3 times a week, the onset time is unpredictable, the crash is hard, and the WD is painful. So it has zero positive qualities for me.

 

[rtmilburn]

Great recommendation in here. Some things i want to add though

Sensory deprivation tanks! Seriously they are great. I have found them for effective than meditation. it is essentially just a form of meditation. IME this is by far the most effect thing anyone can do for anxiety or depression.

LDN(Low-Dose-Naltrexone) has been quite effective for me. I just started playing around with this, but getting dosing correct can be tricky for some. However, my result have been pretty good. Ive been clamer, more relaxed, slightly better out look on life. No direct effect on anxiety persay but the other benefits of really help my anxiety.

Marijuana can be very helpful as well but start low and slow, as it MAY make it worse.

 

[The Express 42]

Go in and get your hormone levels tested immediately. I have always been an outgoing guy and I ran a cycle early on unknowing what I was taking and the year or so after was the worst of my life. Grades slipped, anxiety through the roof, kept to my room most of the day. Wasn’t myself. Test was tanked when I got it checked, got it back in normal range and my well being has been a phenomenal change. Don’t underestimate the power hormones have on the body

 

[niklasericson]

Long story short. I´m suffering from chronic Anxiety (GAD, Agoraphobia, Panic Attacks and mild OCD) for some time.

For the last years i tried many different natural supplements with little or no relief. About prescription drugs i only take Alprazolam in low dosages when needed which i avoid at all costs and even that isn't a miracle. I feel some relaxion but those damn thoughts are still there.

Main problem is the anticipatory anxiety. As soon as i know i have to go somewhere or doing something out of the routine a million thoughts shows up and i imagine the worst possible scenarios. Usually the more time i'm in the situation, the anxiety gets more managable. But now, a curious fact. As soon as the "complicated" situation is over, i feel like the superman. Anxiety completely vanish and i feel the "normal" me like i could face everything on earth in that moment. I feel really happy and relieved.

I'll give an example. Even today, after the lunch i had a dental appointment which was causing me a lot of anticipatory anxiety. During the morning i had to do something else which usually causes me anxiety too and i had to avoid it. Went to the appointment and as soon as the Doctor said "It's done" i really forgot what anxiety was. I felt really well and happy. And guess what. After, since i was feeling so good, i decided to do the other thing i avoided in the morning and it was a piece of cake. No anxiety at all. Usually this feeling remains at full strength for a couple of hours but it's still notorious for the rest of the day until i fall asleep. Then it seems to reset during the night and i wake up the "old" me.

I know this a complex matter and i'm not hoping for a "miracle" supplement or cure because honestly i really don't believe one exists but i hope someone can help me understand what happens with my body to feel so good after these situations. I'm sure there's a chemical reaction... Some hormonal change or something. Maybe it's a start to understand where should i focus to fight the anxiety. I'm starting to suspect it could be related with serotonin but honestly i hope it would be something else because the last thing i want to take is a SSRI.

I have been there my friend.
Anxity from 2006-2009 and sometimes panic attacks.
This is how I did.
*Stopped alcohol, I did only drink once a week but that was enough to effect my GABA levels in a negative way.
*Started to workout hard and heavy everyday, cardio/gym
*Started Propanolol(Betablocker) to prevent the heart to race in different situations, this made me more brave and I could go into these situations with the knowledge that my heart want race.
*Started 7-Keto to keep down cortisol.
*Started also a low dose Baclofen, it is a GABA-B agonist and this made the mood and welk being much better it also took away the anxity and all this treatment made me feel like I did before.
After a year or so I found enough courage to stop the Betablocker and moved to natty supps like KSM66, Glycine, NAC and it's working great.
There's always a way out, all you have to do is to find the right treatment.

 

[HIT4ME]

The three or four things I would highly recommend for this, all of which are subtle but actually healthy and "safe" are: Agmatine, Magnesium, TMG and/or Glycine. Agmatine is very subtle but relaxing. It is estimated that a high % of the population is deficient in magnesium and I notice improved sleep, stress tolerance, etc. when I supplement with magnesium even when I am routinely eating large amounts of broccoli and spinach (2-3 bags a day). Glycine and TMG seem like such simple solutions, but they are precursors to SAMe formation, reduce homocysteine levels, and have GABAergic functions.

Also, focus on sleep - and another ingredient that can help in addition to the above for sleep is GABA itself and zing and P5P along with the Magnesium. Sometimes we focus on a problem and forget about the "back end" - if you lack sleep your stress tolerance WILL be effected, and if you become stressed out and can't sleep it will continue to decline.

I didn't used to ever get anxiety and about 5 years ago I had some things happen that opened my eyes to this affliction and it is really underestimated for its potential for destruction. But, observing myself and others, one thing that always stands out is a feeling of "helplessness".

I think it is similar to depression - depression sucks but it actually MAY serve a purpose. If you put a monkey in a cage with a checkerboard floor and electrify the black squares, they will learn to avoid the black and stay on the red. If you electrify only the red, they will adapt and learn to avoid the red and stay on the black. If you electrify all of the squares, they will give up and resign to the fact they are going to be shocked. Obviously this is an anecdote but it is how humans work and logical.

But depression, in a situation like this in nature, can be LIFE SAVING. Sometimes if you keep trying to overcome a problem out in the real world and you keep failing, it is smarter to just stay in your cave and avoid the world for a while until the problem either goes away or you can go at it fresh later on. There is actually a benefit to the function.

And I think anxiety has a similar benefit. We get anxiety over things we cannot change. I've been in extremely stressful situations and I can handle them just fine - as long as I am able to WORK on the problem.

With anxiety, I know there is a problem and I am in a position where I cannot take any action (for various reasons) to deal with the problem. It becomes a snowball because I start focusing on the problem rather than the solution - which ultimately makes the problem larger than life.

One of the ways in which I have observed myself and others being "helpless" is that we sometimes just don't KNOW what to do next. Sometimes it's fine not to know - just doing something anyway, even if it isn't a direct solution to the problem can help.

If you're worried about a meeting in 2 hours, you can't really have the meeting now - but maybe you can do something now that will help you prepare? Maybe a description of these situations in more detail could help us give more ideas.

 

[HIT4ME]

I've never tried agmatine for this, but will definitely experiment with it.

You should - rascal14 is right. I bet you will wonder why you never noticed it before when you took it for a workout.

You mention still having "thoughts." Try incorporating meditation. Daily meditation helps me so much in relieving anxiety, just as well (or better) than supplements. It kind of lets you experience your thoughts from a different perspective and allows you to become aware of them and not attached to them, which causes anxiety. Of the supplements mentioned l theanine is great and is a staple for me, aswell as ashwagandha. Propranolol I would avoid, its really only good for public speaking where you wanna control your heart rate etc. The downside of it is that it tends to make me depressed.

More good advice - I don't personally have experience here but I have seen loads of experimental evidence suggesting that it actually has an impact on many diseases, including Alzheimer's. I know that I personally often make the mistake of viewing it as being hogwash - but I know the evidence is there.

 

[DoubleM101]

Thanks a lot for your replies. Great info here. I bet it will help me and some others suffering from the same problem.

I had a look on what i got laying around and i already started to take Magnesium today.

Meanwhile during my research today i found something new i didn't know about and i see myself fitting there. I guess i have the "Worrier gene". In short theres an enzime named Catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) that breaks down dopamine and sometimes it removes dopamine slower than expected and the brain is flooded with it. It's more complex than that but i'm not the best person to explain it... But after reading all the possible symptoms i have the feeling it's my case.

 

[Slimshoddy]

That interesting, any information on how to improve it?

 

[kisaj]

Thanks a lot for your replies. Great info here. I bet it will help me and some others suffering from the same problem.

I had a look on what i got laying around and i already started to take Magnesium today.

Meanwhile during my research today i found something new i didn't know about and i see myself fitting there. I guess i have the "Worrier gene". In short theres an enzime named Catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) that breaks down dopamine and sometimes it removes dopamine slower than expected and the brain is flooded with it. It's more complex than that but i'm not the best person to explain it... But after reading all the possible symptoms i have the feeling it's my case.

Brotha, just a word of advice, do NOT try to diagnose yourself and especially with something like COMT. This is highly complex and requires testing on genetic traits and hormones. My wife has been chasing this with specialists for over a year and most do not fully understand it yet. It’s intriguing but not what you can read some articles on and assume you have.

 

[DoubleM101]

Brotha, just a word of advice, do NOT try to diagnose yourself and especially with something like COMT. This is highly complex and requires testing on genetic traits and hormones. My wife has been chasing this with specialists for over a year and most do not fully understand it yet. It’s intriguing but not what you can read some articles on and assume you have.

Yes i know it isn't something we can assume only by reading some articles but it has gotten my attention.

I'm really interested in doing some hormonal lab tests but i know if i will ask my GP or any other doctor for it they will refuse to. At least here, Anxiety is "solved" with a Benzo and SSRI combination. No one cares about the root of the problem.

Do you know a service 23andme? During my research i found it and it seems to be possible to upload the report to some other websites and check some interesting information including COMT genes but correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Thanks a lot for your replies. Great info here. I bet it will help me and some others suffering from the same problem.

I had a look on what i got laying around and i already started to take Magnesium today.

Meanwhile during my research today i found something new i didn't know about and i see myself fitting there. I guess i have the "Worrier gene". In short theres an enzime named Catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) that breaks down dopamine and sometimes it removes dopamine slower than expected and the brain is flooded with it. It's more complex than that but i'm not the best person to explain it... But after reading all the possible symptoms i have the feeling it's my case.

It's way more complicated than that. COMT inactivates catecholamines in general, not just dopamine. It's also been associated with many neural disorders, not just anxiety. If you're reading something that is calling it the "worrier gene", more than likely that authoris not a researcher and is more interested in catchy names than actually advancing medical knowledge.

Like kisaj said, please don't diagnose yourself based on symptoms on something you're reading on the internet. Go and see a specilist and go from there.

 

[rascal14]

Like kisaj said, please don't diagnose yourself based on symptoms on something you're reading on the internet. Go and see a specilist and go from there.

Are their tests easily available to be done to check Dopamine/Serotonin levels and ratios? Like other than a doctor listening to how you feel, how can they decide what is wrong without just trial and error with medications?

I don't know a lot, but I know the balance of hormones is almost more important than the actual levels. right? Because it was odd to be that you would want more Serotonin, when Dopamine is usually the considered the calming hormone?

Would OCD be considered a result of anxiety, or is anxiety the result of having OCD? I definitely used to have terrible OCD, I still do. But the OCD has calmed and anxiety has increased over the years. I still hate breaking routines and will find myself doing my nightly routine more than once if I skipped a step or did something different.. Insanity, I know. Lol

 

[kisaj]

I don't know a lot, but I know the balance of hormones is almost more important than the actual levels. right? Because it was odd to be that you would want more Serotonin, when Dopamine is usually the considered the calming hormone?

But dopamine is not the calming neurotransmitter (also not a hormone), it is responsible for motivation and reward. Low dopamine levels are associated with lethargy and depression, but the depression is more in the "whoa is me" and lack of motivation.

I am talking out of my ass here, but I think that the OCD manifests from the anxiety as a mechanism to control or lessen it- subconsciously. I don't know what would be right, but there is an imbalance somewhere.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Are their tests easily available to be done to check Dopamine/Serotonin levels and ratios? Like other than a doctor listening to how you feel, how can they decide what is wrong without just trial and error with medications?

I don't know a lot, but I know the balance of hormones is almost more important than the actual levels. right? Because it was odd to be that you would want more Serotonin, when Dopamine is usually the considered the calming hormone?

Would OCD be considered a result of anxiety, or is anxiety the result of having OCD? I definitely used to have terrible OCD, I still do. But the OCD has calmed and anxiety has increased over the years. I still hate breaking routines and will find myself doing my nightly routine more than once if I skipped a step or did something different.. Insanity, I know. Lol

Unfortunately, none of it is that simple. You can sort of check levels through a blood draw, but neurotransmitters have functions all over the body. There is a more direct way to measure levels in specific parts of the brain, but it involves using tracers and PET scans, which equals a lot of money. Again though, it's more complicated that that. Let's say your dopamine "levels" are alright, but you can still have an issue with dopamine receptors or enzymes that degrade dopamine or transport dopamine. A lot of neurotransmitters also affect one another, so if you change one, you might end up screwing up another one. Your body is also constantly trying to stay at a certain level (homeostasis) and it doesn't like change. Some like dopamine have functions outside of your nervous system, like in the immune system.

A lot of this is why physicians really don't have a choice other than to treat you like an experiment which it comes to medications that affect neurotransmission. It's also why I personally really don't like supplements that mess with neurotransmission. It's just not as easy as I'm missing substance A, so I just need to ingest more substance A, because substance A may regulate substance B-Z and one of those happens to feedback and inhibit substance A, making your problem even worse than it originally was.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Are their tests easily available to be done to check Dopamine/Serotonin levels and ratios? Like other than a doctor listening to how you feel, how can they decide what is wrong without just trial and error with medications?

I don't know a lot, but I know the balance of hormones is almost more important than the actual levels. right? Because it was odd to be that you would want more Serotonin, when Dopamine is usually the considered the calming hormone?

Would OCD be considered a result of anxiety, or is anxiety the result of having OCD? I definitely used to have terrible OCD, I still do. But the OCD has calmed and anxiety has increased over the years. I still hate breaking routines and will find myself doing my nightly routine more than once if I skipped a step or did something different.. Insanity, I know. Lol

OCD is a type of anxiety disorder. Like anxiety disorders is a very general term and OCD is simply one kind. People can have more than one kind.

 

[HIT4ME]

When it comes to neurotransmission - if you look at it long enough you will start to have a "curve". In the beginning you learn about dopamine and it does this, and seratonin does that and acetylcholine does this. It seems to make sense and you think things like, "I need more motivation - that must mean I have low dopamine - I need to increase my dopamine so I'll take something to do that!"

And then you fail. And then you learn more and fail again.

Eventually you start to realize, anyone who says things like, "Serotonin is your satisfaction hormone and dopamine is your desire hormone" is likely not very knowledgeable. There is a chance they are knowledgeable and are trying to make it simpler to explain - but I find that to rarely be the case. Most people who actually are knowledgeable won't bother trying to explain such a complicated situation in "simple" terms.

As you follow the curve, the more complicated it all seems and the more you feel like you're trying to hit a target in a football stadium with the lights turned off.

To make things worse - when you effect one pathway, your body will adjust and another pathway will compensate in most situations. Something that makes you feel good today may make you feel horrible in 2 months.

This is kind of why I take the approach of agmatine, magnesium, glycine, TMG, P5P, etc. What I'm about to say will sound a little bit like hogwash - but these are all ingredients that "support" your body and things like magnesium can have a profound impact and we don't even realize how deficient most of us are.

Things that hit "harder", like the nootropics and herbal supplements, may have an impact, but they often fail in my experience and from what I have seen on this board, and the potential for harm is greater.

 

[HIT4ME]

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/01/31/582112597/researchers-discover-anxiety-cells-in-the-brain

Just for interest...