Gyno, Nolva, PCT
- Thread starter Wolfe08
- Start date
blank!
Banned
please don't give whatever answer pops into your head.tech2 said:
gyno is a VERY specific phenomenon that is almost ALWAYS preceded by sensitivity, puffiness and the gradual formation of solid tissue under the nipple. if these symptoms did not occur but you notice a different shape to your pecs, it is probably fat deposits accumulated on-cycle. nolva's usefulness with gyno lies in its ability to halt the tissue formation process once symptoms are recognized. however, if actual gyno has formed, nolva will generally do nothing for it and surgery is the only recourse.
still, there is a possiblity that your PCT will cause the fat deposits to decrease (by leaning you out) which will make the pec return to its original shape.
Neuromancer
Registered User
If you are having gyno symptomes, trust me you will know. It will be quite obvious.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
blank! said:
Wrong again. Please stop posting what "pops in your head".
Management of physiological gynaecomastia with tamoxifen.
Khan HN, Rampaul R, Blamey RW.
Professorial Unit of Surgery, Department of Surgery, Nottingham City Hospital, Nottingham NG5 1PB, UK. [email protected]
AIMS: We aimed to confirm suggestions that tamoxifen therapy alone may resolve physiological gynaecomastia. METHODS: A prospective audit of the outcome of tamoxifen routinely given to men with physiological gynaecomastia was carried out at Nottingham. Men referred with gynaecomastia had clinical signs recorded, e.g., type (diffuse 'fatty' or retro-areolar 'lump'), size and possible aetiology. They were offered oral tamoxifen 20mg once daily for 6-12 weeks. On follow-up patients were assessed for complete resolution (CR), partial resolution where patient is satisfied with outcome (PR) or no resolution (NR). Success was either CR or PR. RESULTS: Thirty-six men accepted tamoxifen for physiological gynaecomastia. Median age was 31 (range 18-64). Tenderness was present in 25 (71%) cases. Sixteen men (45%) had 'fatty' gynaecomastia and 20 had 'lump' gynaecomastia. Tamoxifen resolved the mass in 30 patients (83.3%; CR=22, PR=8) and tenderness in 21 cases (84%; CR=0, PR=0). Lump gynaecomastia was more responsive to tamoxifen than the fatty type (100% vs. 62.5%; P=0.0041). CONCLUSIONS: Oral tamoxifen is an effective treatment for physiological gynaecomastia, especially for the lump type.
Forum User X
New member
I agree with Bobo. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing how surgery is the only solution. Its not and dozens of medical studies prove that. I wonder how this "surgery is the only option" thing started. My guess is with plastic surgeons.
size
Well-known member
Andractim and nolva work well.
Thanks for the study Bobo. I had been looking for it but I am lazy.
Here is another:
Prevention and management of bicalutamide-induced gynecomastia and breast pain: randomized endocrinologic and clinical studies with tamoxifen and anastrozole.
Saltzstein D, Sieber P, Morris T, Gallo J.
1Urology San Antonio Research PA, Pasteur Medical Plaza, San Antonio, Texas, USA.
A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicenter trial involving 107 men receiving bicalutamide ('Casodex') 150 mg/day therapy following radical therapy for prostate cancer assessed tamoxifen ('Nolvadex') 20 mg/day and anastrozole ('Arimidex') 1 mg/day for the prophylaxis and treatment of gynecomastia/breast pain. Tamoxifen, but not anastrozole, significantly reduced the incidence of gynecomastia/breast pain when used prophylactically and therapeutically. Serum testosterone levels increased with tamoxifen relative to placebo but prostate-specific antigen levels declined in all treatment groups. Further studies are needed to define the optimum tamoxifen dose and to assess any impact on cancer control. The use of tamoxifen in this setting remains to be investigated.
and more:
Tamoxifen treatment for pubertal gynecomastia.
Derman O, Kanbur NO, Kutluk T.
Section of Adolescent Medicine, Department of Pediatrics, Hacettepe University Faculty of Medicine, 06100 Ankara-Turkey. [email protected]
We evaluated the efficacy of the tamoxifen treatment in 37 patients with pubertal gynecomastia. All had distinct, easily palpable breast swellings with a diameter of over three cm. Pain, tenderness, and swelling associated with gynecomastia were reported by six patients. Eight of the patients were obese. One patient also suffered from varicocele. Pain and size reduction was seen in all patients with tamoxifen treatment. No long-term side effects of tamoxifen were observed. The dose of tamoxifen was increased in three patients due to poor response. Two of the treatment group had recurrence problem at follow-up. We did not need to refer any patient to surgery. Tamoxifen treatment is relatively non-toxic, may be beneficial and we think it should be considered for pubertal gynecomastia.
Thanks for the study Bobo. I had been looking for it but I am lazy.
Here is another:
Prevention and management of bicalutamide-induced gynecomastia and breast pain: randomized endocrinologic and clinical studies with tamoxifen and anastrozole.
Saltzstein D, Sieber P, Morris T, Gallo J.
1Urology San Antonio Research PA, Pasteur Medical Plaza, San Antonio, Texas, USA.
A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicenter trial involving 107 men receiving bicalutamide ('Casodex') 150 mg/day therapy following radical therapy for prostate cancer assessed tamoxifen ('Nolvadex') 20 mg/day and anastrozole ('Arimidex') 1 mg/day for the prophylaxis and treatment of gynecomastia/breast pain. Tamoxifen, but not anastrozole, significantly reduced the incidence of gynecomastia/breast pain when used prophylactically and therapeutically. Serum testosterone levels increased with tamoxifen relative to placebo but prostate-specific antigen levels declined in all treatment groups. Further studies are needed to define the optimum tamoxifen dose and to assess any impact on cancer control. The use of tamoxifen in this setting remains to be investigated.
and more:
Tamoxifen treatment for pubertal gynecomastia.
Derman O, Kanbur NO, Kutluk T.
Section of Adolescent Medicine, Department of Pediatrics, Hacettepe University Faculty of Medicine, 06100 Ankara-Turkey. [email protected]
We evaluated the efficacy of the tamoxifen treatment in 37 patients with pubertal gynecomastia. All had distinct, easily palpable breast swellings with a diameter of over three cm. Pain, tenderness, and swelling associated with gynecomastia were reported by six patients. Eight of the patients were obese. One patient also suffered from varicocele. Pain and size reduction was seen in all patients with tamoxifen treatment. No long-term side effects of tamoxifen were observed. The dose of tamoxifen was increased in three patients due to poor response. Two of the treatment group had recurrence problem at follow-up. We did not need to refer any patient to surgery. Tamoxifen treatment is relatively non-toxic, may be beneficial and we think it should be considered for pubertal gynecomastia.
Neuromancer
Registered User
This could be benifitial as well...
Treatment of gynaecomastia with raloxifene.
Ariel S¨¢nchez,
Director
Centro de Endocrinolog¨ªa, San Lorenzo 876, (2000) Rosario, SF, Argentina
Send response to journal:
Invalid Link Removed
Email Ariel S¨¢nchez
Sir, We read with interest the Editorial on the treatment of gynaecomastia by Khan & Blamey.1 They review the experience of several centres, including their own, with the use of tamoxifen. We would like to comment on our experience with another drug, raloxifene.
Selective oestrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) are a relatively new family of drugs designed to act as oestrogens on some, but not all, tissues.2 Tamoxifen is a first-generation SERM. Raloxifene, a second-generation SERM, has been extensively studied on postmenopausal women, and is indicated for the treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis.3 It is an alternative to oestrogen replacement therapy in women with a history of breast cancer.4, 5 Its anti-proliferative effect on mammary tissue is such that prolonged use reduces the risk of breast cancer among osteoporotic women.6
In a recent placebo-controlled short-term trial, the drug was administered to 34 healthy males (mean age, 48 years) at the dose of 60 mg/day for one month; no subject developed gynaecomastia. Besides, serum testosterone increased 20%, and serum estradiol decreased slightly.7
We decided to evaluate the effect of raloxifene in a series of patients with gynaecomastia. Twelve patients aged 18-84 years were treated. Breast enlargement was unilateral in 5 cases; its duration ranged from a few weeks (7 cases) to several years (5 cases). Four patients were hypogonadal by clinical criteria, and had low serum testosterone. In two patients there was a possible drug effect (prasterone in one, ranitidine in the other). The size of breast tissue ranged between 1.5 and 6.0 cm. All patients had normal testes by palpation, and normal serum levels of estradiol, LH, FSH, prolactin, and alpha-hCG. Liver function tests and serum creatinine also were normal. The dose of raloxifene was 60 mg every other day in 4 elderly patients (age 70 years or more), and 60 mg daily in the remaining; the medication was given for 2-12 months. Hypogonadal patients received, in addition, i.m. injections of testosterone enanthate, 100 mg twice a month.
Raloxifene was well tolerated; only one young patient reported a slight decrease in sexual potency. No subject complained of hot flushes; there were no episodes of thrombophlebitis during follow-up. The analgesic effect of treatment was fast (2-4 weeks) and sustained among 9 patients with pain and tenderness. The size of the gynaecomastia was evaluated monthly by means of a caliper (all patients), and ultrasonography (7 patients). All patients responded: there was an average reduction in size of 61% (range: 34-100%); in 2 patients gynaecomastia disappeared. Six of 8 eugonadal patients (75%) had a reduction in the size of breast tissue of at least 50% (average, 73%). Among hypogonadal patients (all of them followed with ultrasonography) gynaecomastia disappeared in one, and size reduction in the remaining subjects ranged between 46 and 67% (this is particularly noteworthy, since testosterone replacement not infrequently causes or aggravates gynaecomastia due to local aromatization to oestrogens by mammary tissue). Maximal effect was observed during the first 2 months of treatment.
This open, observational study suggests that raloxifene may be a safe, well tolerated and effective therapeutic alternative for drug-induced or idiopathic gynaecomastia in men of all ages.
Zulema Man, MD.
TIEMPO, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Ariel S¨¢nchez, MD, PhD;
Hugo Carretto, MD;
Ricardo Parma, MD.
Centro de Endocrinolog¨ªa, Rosario, Argentina
References
1. Khan HN, Blamey RW. Endocrine treatment of physiological gynaecomastia. Br Med J 2003;327:301-2.
2. Compston JE. Selective oestrogen receptor modulators: potential therapeutic implications. Clin Endocrinol 1998;48:389-91.
3. Agnusdei D, Iori N. Raloxifene: results from the MORE study. J Musculoskel Neuron Interact 2000;1:127-32.
4. Cummings SR, Eckert S, Krueger KA, Grady D, Powles TJ, Cauley JA, Norton L, Nickelsen T, Bjarnasson NH, Morrow M, Lippman ME, Black D, Glusman JE, Costa A, Jordan VC. The effect of raloxifene on risk of breast cancer in postmenopausal women. J Am Med Ass 1999;281:2189-97.
5. Mincey BA, Morahan TJ, Perez EA. Prevention and treatment of osteoporosis in women with breast cancer. Mayo Clin Proc 2000;75:821-9.
6. Cauley JA, Norton L, Lippman ME, Eckert S, Krueger KA, Purdie DW, Farrerons J, Karasik A, Mellstrom D, Ng KW, Stepan JJ, Powles TJ, Morrow M, Costa A, Silfen SL, Walls EL, Schmitt H, Muchmore DM, Jordan VC. Continued breast cancer risk reduction in postmenopausal women treated with raloxifene: 4-year results from the MORE trial. Breast Cancer Res Treatment 2001;65:125-34.
7. Uebelhart B, Bonjour JP, Draper MW, Pavo I, Basson R, Rizzoli R. Effects of selective estrogen receptor modulator raloxifene on the pituitary gonadal axis in healthy males (Abstract). J Bone Miner Res 2000;15(Suppl 1):S453.
Competing interests: None declared
Treatment of gynaecomastia with raloxifene.
24 September 2003
Ariel S¨¢nchez,
Director
Centro de Endocrinolog¨ªa, San Lorenzo 876, (2000) Rosario, SF, Argentina
Send response to journal:
Invalid Link Removed
Email Ariel S¨¢nchez
Sir, We read with interest the Editorial on the treatment of gynaecomastia by Khan & Blamey.1 They review the experience of several centres, including their own, with the use of tamoxifen. We would like to comment on our experience with another drug, raloxifene.
Selective oestrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) are a relatively new family of drugs designed to act as oestrogens on some, but not all, tissues.2 Tamoxifen is a first-generation SERM. Raloxifene, a second-generation SERM, has been extensively studied on postmenopausal women, and is indicated for the treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis.3 It is an alternative to oestrogen replacement therapy in women with a history of breast cancer.4, 5 Its anti-proliferative effect on mammary tissue is such that prolonged use reduces the risk of breast cancer among osteoporotic women.6
In a recent placebo-controlled short-term trial, the drug was administered to 34 healthy males (mean age, 48 years) at the dose of 60 mg/day for one month; no subject developed gynaecomastia. Besides, serum testosterone increased 20%, and serum estradiol decreased slightly.7
We decided to evaluate the effect of raloxifene in a series of patients with gynaecomastia. Twelve patients aged 18-84 years were treated. Breast enlargement was unilateral in 5 cases; its duration ranged from a few weeks (7 cases) to several years (5 cases). Four patients were hypogonadal by clinical criteria, and had low serum testosterone. In two patients there was a possible drug effect (prasterone in one, ranitidine in the other). The size of breast tissue ranged between 1.5 and 6.0 cm. All patients had normal testes by palpation, and normal serum levels of estradiol, LH, FSH, prolactin, and alpha-hCG. Liver function tests and serum creatinine also were normal. The dose of raloxifene was 60 mg every other day in 4 elderly patients (age 70 years or more), and 60 mg daily in the remaining; the medication was given for 2-12 months. Hypogonadal patients received, in addition, i.m. injections of testosterone enanthate, 100 mg twice a month.
Raloxifene was well tolerated; only one young patient reported a slight decrease in sexual potency. No subject complained of hot flushes; there were no episodes of thrombophlebitis during follow-up. The analgesic effect of treatment was fast (2-4 weeks) and sustained among 9 patients with pain and tenderness. The size of the gynaecomastia was evaluated monthly by means of a caliper (all patients), and ultrasonography (7 patients). All patients responded: there was an average reduction in size of 61% (range: 34-100%); in 2 patients gynaecomastia disappeared. Six of 8 eugonadal patients (75%) had a reduction in the size of breast tissue of at least 50% (average, 73%). Among hypogonadal patients (all of them followed with ultrasonography) gynaecomastia disappeared in one, and size reduction in the remaining subjects ranged between 46 and 67% (this is particularly noteworthy, since testosterone replacement not infrequently causes or aggravates gynaecomastia due to local aromatization to oestrogens by mammary tissue). Maximal effect was observed during the first 2 months of treatment.
This open, observational study suggests that raloxifene may be a safe, well tolerated and effective therapeutic alternative for drug-induced or idiopathic gynaecomastia in men of all ages.
Zulema Man, MD.
TIEMPO, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Ariel S¨¢nchez, MD, PhD;
Hugo Carretto, MD;
Ricardo Parma, MD.
Centro de Endocrinolog¨ªa, Rosario, Argentina
References
1. Khan HN, Blamey RW. Endocrine treatment of physiological gynaecomastia. Br Med J 2003;327:301-2.
2. Compston JE. Selective oestrogen receptor modulators: potential therapeutic implications. Clin Endocrinol 1998;48:389-91.
3. Agnusdei D, Iori N. Raloxifene: results from the MORE study. J Musculoskel Neuron Interact 2000;1:127-32.
4. Cummings SR, Eckert S, Krueger KA, Grady D, Powles TJ, Cauley JA, Norton L, Nickelsen T, Bjarnasson NH, Morrow M, Lippman ME, Black D, Glusman JE, Costa A, Jordan VC. The effect of raloxifene on risk of breast cancer in postmenopausal women. J Am Med Ass 1999;281:2189-97.
5. Mincey BA, Morahan TJ, Perez EA. Prevention and treatment of osteoporosis in women with breast cancer. Mayo Clin Proc 2000;75:821-9.
6. Cauley JA, Norton L, Lippman ME, Eckert S, Krueger KA, Purdie DW, Farrerons J, Karasik A, Mellstrom D, Ng KW, Stepan JJ, Powles TJ, Morrow M, Costa A, Silfen SL, Walls EL, Schmitt H, Muchmore DM, Jordan VC. Continued breast cancer risk reduction in postmenopausal women treated with raloxifene: 4-year results from the MORE trial. Breast Cancer Res Treatment 2001;65:125-34.
7. Uebelhart B, Bonjour JP, Draper MW, Pavo I, Basson R, Rizzoli R. Effects of selective estrogen receptor modulator raloxifene on the pituitary gonadal axis in healthy males (Abstract). J Bone Miner Res 2000;15(Suppl 1):S453.
Competing interests: None declared
ItriedtoripoffBobosonowIamgonehaveaniceday
Guest
size said:
I am so glad I found this thread because I was just about to start another one. My friend has been on two cycles of M1T and he did NOTHING for PCT!!! Needless to say his test levels were low and his estrogen levels must of soared becuase after his last cycle he developed gyno...puffy hard lump in his left nipple. What dosages of Nolva do you recommend and for how long. I am sorry but is Andractim only available from pharmacies or is it OTC? I have never heard of it. Would an AI make any difference? Again if you can recommend any amount of nolva dosage and for how long I would appreciate it as this is a good friend and he really doesn't have the cash for surgery.
size
Well-known member
MaNiaK1027 said:
Andractim is not available in USA.
For the nolvadex, start at a high dosage say 60-80mg and then gradually decrease. Say 80mg daily for 1 week, 60mg for 1 week, 40mg for 2 weeks, 20mg for 2 weeks, 10mg for 1 week and stop. Following that protocol would be 7 weeks of consistent nolvadex treatment, and I would expect a reduction in the gyno. Another option would be 4 weeks on/off and repeat.
OmarJackson
Active member
would long term use of low doses of nolva (like 10mg ED for 4-6 weeks, not pct related) to cure pubertal gyno as mentioned in one of the studies have any significant negative effective on muscle anabolism, as it would while on an androgen cycle for example?
because i might consider doing so along with lipoderm and a strict diet, i think i can rid of my chest fat once and for all.
any speculation, thoughts?
because i might consider doing so along with lipoderm and a strict diet, i think i can rid of my chest fat once and for all.
any speculation, thoughts?
Forum User X
New member
The studies show that the removal of pubertal gyno was done with 20 mg a day so if you get Tamoxifen from a chemical research source and consume 30 mg a day, thats the same dosing as those studies. A bottle of liquid Nolva will last 45 days with that dosing. Then take two weeks off (give your liver a rest) and then start again. Thats my plan. I'm going to hunt down for some tabs from overseas as the liquid form makes me gag every time I take it, even if I try to shoot it in the back of my throat.
Don't try getting rid of this with Femara either. I was seeing good reductions (check my log) while taking Tamoxifen but switched to Femara because I figured "Hey, if its more powerful than Nolva, it must be great for it." Very little size decrease (but there was one). Liver toxicity or not, I'm going to take Tamox from now on and then never go on it again until I start doing PH cycles.
Don't try getting rid of this with Femara either. I was seeing good reductions (check my log) while taking Tamoxifen but switched to Femara because I figured "Hey, if its more powerful than Nolva, it must be great for it." Very little size decrease (but there was one). Liver toxicity or not, I'm going to take Tamox from now on and then never go on it again until I start doing PH cycles.
Neuromancer
Registered User
That certainly is the biggest problem right now...size said:
SJA
dead sexy wino
What Size says is on the mark. I helped a friend through this (twice...because he's a dumbass). The first time he had a lump, I used Size's first plan (started him at 80 (120 TC) and tapered down). The second time, I had him do two 4 week cycles of 30mg (TC) with a 4 week off period. They both worked well and the lump is totally gone. My reasoning for using the second method was due to his lack of will power to stay away from M1T (his friends gave him misinformation and he didn't check with me). So effectively, he had to take 12 weeks off from PH's....it worked.
BTW....this was after he went to a doctor and the doctor said that he would have to have surgery (which is why he called me). The study posted by Bobo reflects my experience in this case.
BTW....this was after he went to a doctor and the doctor said that he would have to have surgery (which is why he called me). The study posted by Bobo reflects my experience in this case.
ItriedtoripoffBobosonowIamgonehaveaniceday
Guest
Thanks a lot guys, my friend is gonna be really happy to see these threads. To all that replied thanks. If my friend were to ever cycle again, as I know him (sounds like SJA and I have the same friend LOL!) WOuld letro,arimidex, or nolva be ok for him to take during the cycle? Would the dose be high or moderate during cycle? Sorry for the extra question but my friend has the same stubborness as SJA's friend it seems. Thanks guys! I will tell him to take advantage of Custom's Sale!
Wolfe08
Banned
I belive taking any of those, letro, arimidex or nolva will hinder gains on a cycle...I belive letro, arimidex are the same thing and they are used for getting rid of water weight, while nolva is for gyno and natural test levels...people have said not to use nolva during a PH cycle but I have heard of many people using nolva during an AAS cycle...so i'm not sure...
