Gr-Easy EJL's fish oil megadosing ala Charles Poliquin thread

Not a nutrition topic, but I thought it was interesting & related to what we're discussing:

Abstract
Objectives: There is concern regarding the possible health effects of cellular telephone use. We examined whether the source of funding of studies of the effects of low-level radiofrequency radiation is associated with the results of studies. We conducted a systematic review of studies of controlled exposure to radiofrequency radiation with health-related outcomes (electroencephalogram, cognitive or cardiovascular function, hormone levels, symptoms, and subjective well-being) .

Data sources: We searched EMBASE, Medline, and a specialist database in February 2005 and scrutinized reference lists from relevant publications.

Data extraction: Data on the source of funding, study design, methodologic quality, and other study characteristics were extracted. The primary outcome was the reporting of at least one statistically significant association between the exposure and a health-related outcome. Data were analyzed using logistic regression models.

Data synthesis: Of 59 studies, 12 (20%) were funded exclusively by the telecommunications industry, 11 (19%) were funded by public agencies or charities, 14 (24%) had mixed funding (including industry) , and in 22 (37%) the source of funding was not reported. Studies funded exclusively by industry reported the largest number of outcomes, but were least likely to report a statistically significant result: The odds ratio was 0.11 (95% confidence interval, 0.02–0.78) , compared with studies funded by public agencies or charities. This finding was not materially altered in analyses adjusted for the number of outcomes reported, study quality, and other factors.

Conclusions: The interpretation of results from studies of health effects of radiofrequency radiation should take sponsorship into account.

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The money is definitely an issue. Its so hard though as at the same time I hate the government funding studies too
 
More reasons to pay attention to funding source, here's a drug industry systematic review:

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Discussion

Research sponsored by the drug industry was more likely to produce results favouring the product made by the company sponsoring the research than studies funded by other sources. The results apply across a wide range of disease states, drugs, and drug classes, over at least two decades and regardless of the type of research being assessed—pharmacoeconomic studies, clinical trials, or meta-analyses of clinical trials. The totality of the evidence reported in our meta-analysis of a subset of homogeneous studies suggests that there is some kind of systematic bias to the outcome of published research funded by the pharmaceutical industry.
Our results confirm and extend those reported by Bekelman et al.8 They identified only five studies that compared outcomes in research funded by pharmaceutical companies and other sources,14 16 20 23 41 and our study adds another 16 studies12 13 15 18 19 22 24 26 27 30 32 34 36 38–40 Our results are also supported by Rochon and coworkers43 (we excluded this paper because all of the trials were sponsored by drug companies and were, therefore, not comparible with trials lacking company funding.) They found that trials supported by manufacturers of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents almost always reported that the sponsor's drug was as or more effective and less toxic than the comparison drug.

Explanations

At least four possible explanations exist for favourable results seen in industry sponsored research. Firstly, pharmaceutical companies may selectively fund trials on drugs that they consider to be superior to the competition. Data collected so far, however, indicate that researchers cannot predict results of trials in advance.44

Secondly, positive results could be the consequence of poor quality research conducted by industry. For example, low quality trials exaggerate the benefits of treatment by an average of 34%.45 46 We found that the research methods of trials sponsored by drug companies is at least as good as that of non-industry funded research and in many cases better. This does not guarantee the absence of bias in studies sponsored by the industry since outcome could be influenced by factors left out of quality scores, such as the question asked or the conduct or reporting of the study.7 47

Thirdly, selecting an appropriate comparator is a key issue in planning a clinical trial.7 20 44 In the study by Rochon et al, in most cases in which the doses of the study and comparator drugs were not equivalent, the drug given at the higher dose was that of the supporting manufacturer.43 As the authors saw, higher doses may bias the results in favour of effectiveness of the manufacturer's product. Safer also reports that in trials of psychiatric drugs the comparator drug is often given in doses outside the usual range or there is a rapid and substantial dose increase in the drug not manufactured by the sponsoring company.48 In another instance, research funded by the company marketing fluconazole compared it with oral amphotericin B, a drug known to be poorly absorbed, thereby creating a bias in favour of fluconazole.49 We did not consider who is finally responsible for the selection of the comparator—investigators, regulatory agencies, or sponsors.

Finally, our results suggest that publication bias may explain our finding of bias in favour of outcomes of research funded by industry. Although research sponsored by industry was less likely to be published than research with other sources of funding, the two studies with this finding did not specifically examine whether non-publication applied just to research with non-significant outcomes.17 21 In the past few years, manufacturers have attempted to prevent studies which are unfavourable to their products from being published in several high profile cases.50–52
 
Would this potentially conflict with products like Palo Alto's Leviathan, whose product's most effective when insulin levels are lower? It seems to me like it'd be impossible to take Leviathan if you're mega-dosing.
 
hmm what would make you think that fish oil rasises insulin levels round the clock? If anything I would think it lowers it.
 
It looks like I mistook insulin sensitivity to mean heightened insulin levels, but I swear I saw somewhere that it raised insulin levels.

The insulin sensitivity would not interfere with anything that depends on lower insulin levels then, right?
 
MrBrightside said:
It looks like I mistook insulin sensitivity to mean heightened insulin levels, but I swear I saw somewhere that it raised insulin levels.

The insulin sensitivity would not interfere with anything that depends on lower insulin levels then, right?
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Watch yourself MrBrightside. You're walking on thin ice.
 
hard to say for sure without using blood glucose testers. It doesn't seem to do any harm or reduction of usefulness to them
 
MrBrightside said:
It looks like I mistook insulin sensitivity to mean heightened insulin levels, but I swear I saw somewhere that it raised insulin levels.

The insulin sensitivity would not interfere with anything that depends on lower insulin levels then, right?
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Don't be silly. You can find all the scientific information you want in a thread I posted a while back that includes lengthy sections from two books: Invalid Link Removed

From the second book Novel food ingredients for weight control, C.J.K. Henry (Editor), CRC; 1 edition (May 11, 2007) you'll find plenty of information to answer your questions including:

13.3.4 The mechanism of polyunsaturated fatty acid in insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes

The molecular effects of PUFAs are such that these fatty acids may have an impact on the regulation of insulin sensitivity (Lombardo and Chicco, 2006). There are indeed indications that omega-3 PUFAs may have positive effects on glucose tolerance by reducing insulin resistance, as demonstrated in rodent models of obesity (Storlien et al., 2000). Rats fed a high-fat diet supplemented with a low ratio of omega-6: omega-3 PUFA maintained normal insulin action, while rats fed a diet containing high levels of saturated and monounsaturated fats showed insulin resistance in several tissues (Storlien et al., 1991). Feeding fish oil to mice, providing 5–10% of the daily energy intake, accelerated glucose uptake and maintained glucose homeostasis during high-fat feeding (Storlien et al., 1997). The favourable effects of fish oil-derived PUFAs may be explained by suppression of hepatic fatty acids synthesis and increased fat oxidation. Another mechanism behind the positive effects of PUFAs on insulin sensitivity may occur through alteration in the plasma membrane composition of the cells. There is some evidence indicating that altered membrane structure may affect both insulin action and insulin binding to its receptor (Storlien et al., 1996). Another possible mechanism behind the effects of PUFAs in metabolism can be attributed to changes in protein acylation. Many membrane proteins are modified by fatty acid acylation with saturated fatty acids like palmitate or myristate. Whether this has any significant effects in insulin signalling, or whether PUFAs play a role, is unknown at the present time. In summary, the metabolic effects of omega-3 PUFAs promote the reduction of triglyceride in skeletal muscle and liver, which in turn is associated with improved insulin action and glucose tolerance thereby preventing development of insulin resistance.​

Furthermore,

13.3.5 Islet metabolism, insulin secretion and polyunsaturated fatty acid

Besides insulin resistance defective islet function is also of importance for the development of glucose intolerance and type 2 diabetes. In fact, a normal islet function with a normal compensation in insulin secretion is a prerequisite for maintaining normal glucose homeostasis in insulin resistance (Ahren and Pacini, 2005). Therefore, to improve glucose homeostasis, effects on islet function are required. Fatty acids are known to acutely stimulate insulin secretion via several possible pathways. First, it is believed that fatty acids are taken up into the B-cell, where they are converted to long-chain acyl-CoA (LC-CoA). Through glucose metabolism the uptake and oxidation of the fatty acids are blocked through the effect of malonyl- CoA, which accumulates in the cytosol when B-cells are exposed to high glucose concentrations (Corkey et al., 1989, Prentki et al., 1992). Malonyl- CoA is an effective inhibitor of CPT-1, inhibiting the transport of fatty acyl-CoA into the mitochondria, resulting in increased accumulation of LC-CoA in the cytosol. LC-CoA has been found to exert effects at several levels in the B-cell to promote second-phase insulin secretion: through binding to the KATP channels, affecting the exocytosis of insulin granulae, activation of protein kinases via acylation mechanism and thereby promoting insulin secretion (Corkey et al., 2000, Deeney et al., 2000, Yaney et al., 2000). Although this seems to be a common pathway for most of the fatty acids, saturated fats are more potent in stimulating glucose-induced insulin secretion than unsaturated ones, as was recently observed in isolated human islets (Gravena et al., 2002).

Another pathway for the fatty acids to stimulate insulin secretion is through the fatty acid binding protein GPR40 (Itoh et al., 2003; Salehi et al., 2005; Shapiro et al., 2005). This is a G-protein-coupled receptor that has fatty acids as substrate. Both saturated (C12–C16) and unsaturated (C18–C22) fatty acids have the potency to induce increased intracellular Ca2+ in Chinese hamster ovary (CHO) cells transfected with the GPR40 receptor (Itoh et al., 2003; Itoh and Hinuma, 2005). A third indirect pathway for fatty acids to stimulate insulin secretion is through phospholipase A2 (PLA2), which is activated during glucose stimulation (Simonsson and Ahren, 2000). PLA2 stimulates the formation of arachidonic acid and inhibition of PLA2 results in blunted arachidonic acid formation, which was accompanied by reduced glucose-stimulated insulin secretion. Fish oil has been found to induce insulin secretion through incorporation of the omega-3 PUFAs in the plasma membrane to compete with the production of arachidonic acid.

In a recent study, inclusion of 7% omega-3 PUFAs in a high-fat diet fed to rats resulted in lower glucose-stimulated insulin secretion from isolated islets, possibly through direct effects of the fatty acids on the islets, blocking the hyper-secretion induced by saturated fatty acids (Holness et al., 2003). In addition, in vivo, PUFA supplementation in rats fed a high-fat diet resulted in reversed insulin hyper-secretion, suggesting that PUFAs may have acute effects on islets resulting in reduced insulin secretion (Holness et al., 2004). Therefore, PUFAs seems to be protective at low doses in fatty acid-induced apoptosis and may have anti-apoptotic effects in islets in vivo. Furthermore, the normalising effect of omega-3 PUFAs on high-fat diet- induced hyperinsulinaemia in response to glucose may have long-term beneficial effects on insulin sensitivity.​
 
Zombie said:
i was going to ask you about this. im not taking big doses of Fish oil , but since i runned out of cycle support i increased my dose from 6 gr ED to 9.6-12 gr and i have noticed that my blood got a nice bright red color and it takes longer to coagulate and to form scabs and once the scabs are formed they can be easyly removed. i got a nose bleed 3 days ago and it hasnt healed completely. it starts healing and eveything but if i sneeze i start with the nose bleed and it takes time to heal again. i think im going to drop the fish oil a few days till my nose bleeds stop.
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Try adding spinach or vit K
helps wth clotting
 
Would mega dosed fish oil be suitable for people susceptible to toxins like mercury i.e. people suffering from autism? Also would krill oil be the only safe fish oil for such a person and any ideas when the price of krill oil is going to come down to a reasonable price level?
 
Really any that are from fish body oils (says on the bottle) should be ok. its the cod liver oil that has noticeable amounts. Kirkland is one of the better brands as well, so i'm pretty sure it would be mercury/PCB free
 
I bought some Holland and barrett extra high strength cod liver oil today.

label says:

each 10ml provides:

cod liver oil ....9.2g
with fish oil concentrate

Omega 3 Fatty Acids......2750 mg
of which:

EPA and
DHA...2300mg

This brand seem alright? Was the best i could see.

Was thinking of 40ml a day. I opened the bottle and it stinks just like olive oil. Not tried any yet but i might just end up mixing it with some orange juice to take the taste away.
 
I generally did the regular oils rather than the liver oils. I think witht hat, probably 20ml is enough tho, should put your epa/dha in the right range.
 
EasyEJL said:
I generally did the regular oils rather than the liver oils. I think witht hat, probably 20ml is enough tho, should put your epa/dha in the right range.
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I've taken fish oil caps for a good few months now. Never tried the liquid though till about 5minutes ago..

I never understood when people went on about fish burps as i never got them with the caps. I really thought i was going to vomit when i took my first dose. The taste was awful! lucky i had some mango juice to chase it :)

Cheers for the help:thumbsup:
 
EasyEJL said:
i've tended to buy the preflavored oils, vitamin shoppe has a lemon lime flavor that isn't bad
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There's only two health food shops in my town, and out of the 3 brands of fish oils i saw none were flavoured :( I'll have a look in the supermarket but last time i checked all they ever had was fish oil soft gels.

I was suprised by the taste, expected it to taste like EVOO as the smell was pretty much the same.
 
Chub said:
There's only two health food shops in my town, and out of the 3 brands of fish oils i saw none were flavoured :( I'll have a look in the supermarket but last time i checked all they ever had was fish oil soft gels.

I was suprised by the taste, expected it to taste like EVOO as the smell was pretty much the same.
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I just got some "natures answer" deep sea fish oil orange flavour. Worth bearing in mind Chub.

16 fl/oz [480ml] for £16 in my local health food shop. [UK]

Very good stuff not even slightly fishy tasting not what i would call pleasant but easy to neck.

Started on 40ml per day yesterday and am on a 2000ish cal cut so will be interested to see what happens.

I'm hoping it may help with my dry skin aswell as the bodybuilding benefits. Will keep you posted.
 
Vidal Baboon said:
I just got some "natures answer" deep sea fish oil orange flavour. Worth bearing in mind Chub.

16 fl/oz [480ml] for £16 in my local health food shop. [UK]

Very good stuff not even slightly fishy tasting not what i would call pleasant but easy to neck.

Started on 40ml per day yesterday and am on a 2000ish cal cut so will be interested to see what happens.

I'm hoping it may help with my dry skin aswell as the bodybuilding benefits. Will keep you posted.
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ah cool, I'll have a look for it. Pretty expensive though :(

I went and bought 3000 fish oil soft gels from Nutraplanet the other day. Should come in a couple days. I'll take 20-30 of them a day see what happens!
 
Food for though; saw this in my nutrition textbook as I was browsing.

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Ageing is a multifactorial process involving decreased antioxidant defences and immune functions. n-3 Polyunsaturated fatty acids have been associated with human health benefits, especially against inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. However, their immunomodulatory effects were usually observed with high dosages (>2 g/d) known to increase lipid peroxidation. In contrast, very low doses, that may prevent lipid peroxidation, might affect the immune system differently. To study the latter hypothesis further, we investigated whether the supplementation of healthy elderly people with very low doses of marine oil (MO), a docosahexaenoate (DHA)- and eicosapentaenoate (EPA)-rich triacylglycerol, was able to affect lymphocyte proliferation and biochemical markers known to be altered with age. In a randomized, double-blind design, twenty healthy elderly subjects were assigned to a placebo group (600 mg sunflower oil/d) or to a group consuming 600 mg MO/d providing 150 mg DHA + 30 mg (EPA) for 6 weeks. At day 42, the proliferative responses of lymphocytes to several mitogens were significantly (P<0·01) decreased in the MO group compared with control values. This was accompanied by a slight lowering of their cytosolic cyclic nucleotide phosphodiesterase (PDE) activity, a marked and significant (P<0·05) increase of their particulate PDE activity (+56–57 %) and a slight but significant (P<0·05) increase in cyclic nucleotide intracellular levels. At the same time, the glutathione peroxidase activity was markedly and significantly (P<0·01) depressed in the MO group. None of these modifications could be seen in the placebo group. Collectively, these results demonstrate that even very low doses of n-3 fatty acids are sufficient to affect the immune responses of elderly subjects.
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great thread we have going on guys. an abundance of valuable info on here...

some more food for thought:
Excessive DHA has been shown to initiate a significant loss (60%) of intracellular glutathione. DHA has also been shown to induce capase 3 activation, thereby initiating cell death and DNA fragmentation. The cytotoxic effects of neuroketal up-regulation and protein cross-linking have been observed. There is also evidence indicating DHA-induced mitochondrial transmembrane disruption in response to DHA up-regulation.

45 fish oil capsules a day?.... 2 grams of DHA a day have been shown to induce maximal DHA plasma response.


n-3 Fatty acids have important visual, mental, and cardiovascular health benefits throughout the life cycle. Biodistribution, interconversion, and dose response data are reviewed herein to provide a basis for more rational n-3 dose selections. Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is the principal n?3 fatty acid in tissues and is particularly abundant in neural and retinal tissue. Limited storage of the n-3 fatty acids in adipose tissue suggests that a continued dietary supply is needed. A large proportion of dietary -linolenic acid (ALA) is oxidized, and because of limited interconversion of n-3 fatty acids in humans, ALA supplementation does not result in appreciable accumulation of long-chain n-3 fatty acids in plasma. Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) but not DHA concentrations in plasma increase in response to dietary EPA. Dietary DHA results in a dose-dependent, saturable increase in plasma DHA concentrations and modest increases in EPA concentrations. Plasma DHA concentrations equilibrate in approximately 1 mo and then remain at steady state throughout supplementation. DHA doses of 2 g/d result in a near maximal plasma response. Both dietary DHA and EPA reduce plasma arachidonic acid concentrations. Tissue contents of DHA and EPA also increase in response to supplementation with these fatty acids. Human milk contents of DHA are dependent on diet, and infant DHA concentrations are determined by their dietary intake of this fatty acid. We conclude that the most predictable way to increase a specific long-chain n-3 fatty acid in plasma, tissues, or human milk is to supplement with the fatty acid of interest. Invalid Link Removed
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now, i haven't completely finished going through this whole thread so forgive me if this is a re-post but what i gathered from the article is 2g/daily DHA is ideal. relatively speaking, there's approx. 500mg DHA in a 5 gram serving so 20g should achieve the recommended daily 2g DHA. however, a seemingly knowledgeable fella who's currently megadosing proposed a somewhat general range to shoot for when dosing: 5.4-8.1g (EPA) and 3.6-8.1g (DHA)

also, today i was recommended a brand of fish oil many folks megadosing are using: Natures Answer Omega-3 Deep Sea Fish Oil (does NP carry this brand?) and it's available on-line for about $14, not including S&H
Serving Size 1 Teaspoon
Servings Per Container 96
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Calories 45
Calories from Fat 45
Total Fat 5 g 8% *
Saturated Fat 1.5 g 8% *
Polyunsaturated Fat 2 g †
Monosaturated Fat 1.5 g †
Cholesterol 20 mg 7% *
Omega-3 Fatty Acids
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid) 800 mg †
DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) 500 mg †

Other Ingredients: Deep Sea Anchovy & Sardine Body Oil,
Natural Orange Oil, Rosemary Oil, Quik-Sorb® (ginger
rhizome, amla fruit, capsicum fruit).
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For those who don't already know Mr. Charles Poliquin advises lowering the dose to 15-20g after a couple of months.
 
aw that's great stuff! i'm happy to hear that steveoph. i don't remember how much it came out to when i bought mine @ whole foods but i'll have to inquire about that and make a mental note for when i need to re-stock!
 
I just got my Nutraplanet fish oil caps in...I'm going to start off with 3 caps 5 times a day and go from there...
 
how's everyone progressing with their megadosing?

what are the thoughts?
concerns?
anything?
 
why are people taking the liquid stuff here? it's 3.2 times more expensive for the amount of EPA and DHA compared to NP's 1000 capsules unless i misread the labels
 
purebred said:
For those who don't already know Mr. Charles Poliquin advises lowering the dose to 15-20g after a couple of months.
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never seen that before...any idea why? im assuming more or less your cells become "saturated" and any benefit from additional fish oil goes to 0. dont see anything wrong with more though
 
liquid PFO 1000 caps
price 15.95 26.95
servings 47 500
epa 715 360
dha 470 240
$/g epa 0.47 0.15
$/g dha 0.72 0.22

fixed tabs
edit 2: screw this sites formatting not letting you post a table
 
ah see i dont buy the liquid from NP.
what i buy has the following for about $7/bottle.

Servings Per Container 47
Amount Per Serving
Omega-3 Fatty Acids
1250 Mg
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid)
650 Mg
DHA (DOCOSAHEXAENOIC ACID)
410 Mg


And its not just epa/dha amounts, as they sell separate concentrated epa/dha supplements, but the other components in the fish oil as well.
 
EasyEJL said:
ah see i dont buy the liquid from NP.
what i buy has the following for about $7/bottle.

Servings Per Container 47
Amount Per Serving
Omega-3 Fatty Acids
1250 Mg
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid)
650 Mg
DHA (DOCOSAHEXAENOIC ACID)
410 Mg


And its not just epa/dha amounts, as they sell separate concentrated epa/dha supplements, but the other components in the fish oil as well.
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nice yours is then .23/.33 $/g...better but more expensive still. ive compared concentrated formulas to the bulk caps before and they were still more expensive.

good point that the omega 3 total is important...but your formula only leaves 190mg of other omega 3s...still seems beter to get the caps
 
the caps are a total pain in the butt tho :D i buy a case of 12 of those bottles, lasts a few months, and its just a tbsp 2x a day, vs 30 caps a day :P
 
it's definitely coming down to convenience when deciding b/w liquid vs caps. ultimately, of course, personal preference plays a significant role. it goes without saying: what's "convenient" to you may not be to me.

however, liquid seems to be more convenient for the majority.

PERSONAL UPDATE: initially started dosing @ 1 tbsp/day equaling roughly 13 grams fish oil w/ Health from the Sea PFO. As of a few days ago, i upped the dosage to 2 tbsp (roughly 26 grams) and i'm liking the effects. well sense of being, mood elevated, skin condition has improved (i suffer from mild acne). will continue to check back in regularly.
 
EasyEJL said:
Why take a ridiculous amount of fish oil? In an interview on the 5 best supplements for mass gain, Charles said


...On Sept 2 at 199lbs, I started taking in 30+ g of fish oil a day....

...There is no way I have been taking in 5500 calories a day either, so i'm not sure how this worked out.
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Did you account for the relatively calorie dense fish oil itself? Not going to make an enormous impact on daily intake but 30g/day would bump your cals by a bit over 300/day. It's easy to forget the calories some supps add when calculating your daily intake.
 
Really? I take 20g at night, and just dump 5pills in my mouth, big drink of water, and down it goes. Do this 3x and ive got my 20g....no biggie at all. Especially when im used to knocking down universal's liver tabs at 8x/day.:scared:

EasyEJL said:
the caps are a total pain in the butt tho :D i buy a case of 12 of those bottles, lasts a few months, and its just a tbsp 2x a day, vs 30 caps a day :P
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i've been out of fish oil for approx. a month now and was finally able to go to whole foods today to restock on fish oil.

I wasn't able to find a supply of the last brand I bought (health from the sea pfo) but I did come across a nice big 16 oz. bottle from nordic naturals.

1 tsp contains:
825mg EPA
550 mg DHA plus 290mg oleic acid

compared to health from the sea pfo, nordic naturals' fish oil seems to be nutrtionally superior based on EPA/DHA content.

hopefully someone can benefit from this info!
 
I tried the nutraplet softgels but i think i prefer the liquid, 2 teaspoons a day. And ya you need to take into account the added calories, i keep a food journal so i just switch out some of my other fats for the fish oil.
 
ive been taking about 7 grams a day at least one cap with every meal. If i want to mega dose for say two weeks, should i do like 5 caps a meal?
 
yeah, you can try as high as 5 per meal, 2 weeks is a little short to really hit max effects. its right about then that it starts to "settle". What I mean is the first couple weeks is when you hair + skin feel oilier, maybe digestive issues, etc and after that those disappear.
 
EasyEJL said:
yeah, you can try as high as 5 per meal, 2 weeks is a little short to really hit max effects. its right about then that it starts to "settle". What I mean is the first couple weeks is when you hair + skin feel oilier, maybe digestive issues, etc and after that those disappear.
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so what d you recommend, say 4-6 weeks? i do mind going as long, just didn't know too much about it.
 
seems like you can do it as much as you want, but honestly 1x a year at the 30g range then down to 10-15 the rest of the year seemed to keep the positives going. I need to do it again, but vitamin shoppe stopped selling their liquid, and its either so expensive to buy someone elses, or so a pain in the ass to use caps
 
cool i will probably do this in about three weeks when i start my strength program. Plus ill have some p-slin, might make a nice stack.
 
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