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Glucose Disposal Agents - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser

AutoKal47 said:
Is coconut flour gonna be as good as coco oil? Because I have hard time finding the first one in shops here

As for the carbs, I don't know if there is a medical condition for such thing, but I know for sure
after several attempt that carbs do make me feel bad, it has nothing to do with appearance (i don't check myself out
the day of the refeed or something) my stomach gets bloated, ridiculous amount of air in it and most important
the next day I feel lethargic and I am objectively weaker, it's a fact I can repeat the experiment 10 times,
and it gives me the same result.

I'll try with MCTs then, I was about to anyway
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typically the bloat comes from an allergy.

now. think of it this way, you may be gluten sensitive or have a gluten allergy. Now if thats the case, AVENIN from oats is similar to that.

So it can cause issues, hell i cant eat oatmeal. I suggest you try jasmine rice on refeed. replace oats with that. or rice krispies. or some sort of rice related product thats got no whole wheat.

Even amaranth, or quinoa. you will see a difference. Trust me. The avenin plus fiber may be too much for you,
 
ssbackwards said:
typically the bloat comes from an allergy.

now. think of it this way, you may be gluten sensitive or have a gluten allergy. Now if thats the case, AVENIN from oats is similar to that.

So it can cause issues, hell i cant eat oatmeal. I suggest you try jasmine rice on refeed. replace oats with that. or rice krispies. or some sort of rice related product thats got no whole wheat.

Even amaranth, or quinoa. you will see a difference. Trust me. The avenin plus fiber may be too much for you,
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Gluten kills me, but other carbs work well. Well basically ONLY sweet potato.
 
ssbackwards said:
typically the bloat comes from an allergy.

now. think of it this way, you may be gluten sensitive or have a gluten allergy. Now if thats the case, AVENIN from oats is similar to that.

So it can cause issues, hell i cant eat oatmeal. I suggest you try jasmine rice on refeed. replace oats with that. or rice krispies. or some sort of rice related product thats got no whole wheat.

Even amaranth, or quinoa. you will see a difference. Trust me. The avenin plus fiber may be too much for you,
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I know potatoes do the same, rice I have no idea, it's something like 8 years that i haven't touched it

'bout the coconut oil vs flour? I checked facts and I'm pretty sure is not the same right?
 
Coconut flour, I have some....Its mostly fats and protein. But its the chewy portion of the nut so its mostly all fiber.
 
ssbackwards said:
typically the bloat comes from an allergy.

now. think of it this way, you may be gluten sensitive or have a gluten allergy. Now if thats the case, AVENIN from oats is similar to that.

So it can cause issues, hell i cant eat oatmeal. I suggest you try jasmine rice on refeed. replace oats with that. or rice krispies. or some sort of rice related product thats got no whole wheat.

Even amaranth, or quinoa. you will see a difference. Trust me. The avenin plus fiber may be too much for you,
Click to expand...
That is what I am driving at in regards to a "medical" condition.

It is not normal to be a bloated mess, from 45g of oats.
 
Frank Reynolds said:
That is what I am driving at in regards to a "medical" condition.

It is not normal to be a bloated mess, from 45g of oats.
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or 60gr of potatoes.. I know right?

I mean, I don't really care since I hate oats, rice, potatoes, bread etc..
so mentally is all good, I crave protein all the time, beef, eggs, chicken turkey
that's heaven for me but the whole metabolism thing bothers me
because I'm sure i'm leaving gains on the table, gains that I could get
- slowly sure, but I'm not aiming at getting 300lbs or even 200lbs -
while staying lean :/
 
AutoKal47 said:
or 60gr of potatoes.. I know right?

I mean, I don't really care since I hate oats, rice, potatoes, bread etc..
so mentally is all good, I crave protein all the time, beef, eggs, chicken turkey
that's heaven for me but the whole metabolism thing bothers me
because I'm sure i'm leaving gains on the table, gains that I could get
- slowly sure, but I'm not aiming at getting 300lbs or even 200lbs -
while staying lean :/
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broski just eat a FULL box of gushers fruit snacks, its 240g carb for the whole box no high fructose corn sysrup.

start there, 1 time wont kill you.
 
Frank Reynolds said:
I would love to hear your thoughts on this. As well as your preference between ALA, R-ALA, and NA-RALA
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Me too, I've been doing a lot of reading on the topic and it seems to have some solid science backing its effects on glucose.
 
What do you think about recompadrol?

I eat very low carb and when I eat a meal with 10-20g carbs I usually have 1 cap of recompadrol prior.

I saw your post about refeeds and stopped taking it when i have my refeeds now
 
RawStrength said:
What do you think about recompadrol?

I eat very low carb and when I eat a meal with 10-20g carbs I usually have 1 cap of recompadrol prior.

I saw your post about refeeds and stopped taking it when i have my refeeds now
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this comes to an individuality.

VS in rats is shown to increase leptin sensitivy when leptin is injected into them.

your able to kind of offset some of the fat gain via ACL inhibiton and PPARy down regulation along with increased glycogenolysis.

the insulin increase will still occur you just may need more to get the same responce which is fine if doing a refeed. general refeeds for a 180-185 lb individual (as per dan duchaines kg x 16) is about 1250-1440 carbs in the 2 days. Im sorry but im not doing that wityout a saftey net. Dan duchaine also advocates things like VS for refeeds as well as phenformin OR metformin (which berberine works very similar to show in human studies at 1500mg per day i believe)

also if your having a **** meal and not a real refeed you want to down regulate gene expression associated with fat gain.
 
Whoa! This is another thread that has gotten a lot of response; but unfortunately it will take me some time to wade through all the posts to give any kind of educated responses. I will likely have some time to offer much more with the holiday weekend.



D_
 
bump
 
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ALA on a cheat meal or refeed , after reading this i dont think so!!!!

dont want to inhibit secrection unless leptin resistant in which case its a golden supplement.

this also says it doesnt activate the insulin pathway...

i need full article.

[h=3]Keywords:[/h]
  • Lipoic acid;
  • Leptin;
  • Obesity;
  • PI3K;
  • Sp1 transcription factor
[h=3]Abstract[/h]Scope: Lipoic acid (LA) is an antioxidant with therapeutic potential on several diseases such as diabetes and obesity. Hyperleptinemia and oxidative stress play a major role in the development of obesity-linked diseases. The aim of this study was to examine in vivo and in vitro the effects of LA on leptin production, as well as to elucidate the mechanisms and signalling pathways involved in LA actions.

Methods and results: Dietary supplementation with LA decreased both circulating leptin, and adipose tissue leptin mRNA in rats. Treatment of 3T3-L1 adipocytes with LA caused a concentration-dependent inhibition of leptin secretion and gene expression. Moreover, LA stimulated the anaerobic utilization of glucose to lactate, which negatively correlated with leptin secretion. Furthermore, LA enhanced phosphorylation of Sp1 and inhibited Sp1 transcriptional activity in 3T3-L1 adipocytes. Moreover, LA inhibited Akt phosphorylation, a downstream target of phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K). Treatment with the PI3K inhibitor LY294002 mimicked LA actions, dramatically inhibiting both leptin secretion and gene expression and stimulating Sp1 phosphorylation.

Conclusion: All of these data suggest that the phosphorylation of Sp1 and the accompanying reduced DNA-binding activity are likely to be involved in the inhibition of leptin induced by LA, which could be mediated in part by the abrogation of the PI3K/Akt pathway.
 
ssbackwards said:
Invalid Link Removed

ALA on a cheat meal or refeed , after reading this i dont think so!!!!

dont want to inhibit secrection unless leptin resistant in which case its a golden supplement.

this also says it doesnt activate the insulin pathway...

i need full article.

Keywords:

  • Lipoic acid;
  • Leptin;
  • Obesity;
  • PI3K;
  • Sp1 transcription factor
Abstract

Scope: Lipoic acid (LA) is an antioxidant with therapeutic potential on several diseases such as diabetes and obesity. Hyperleptinemia and oxidative stress play a major role in the development of obesity-linked diseases. The aim of this study was to examine in vivo and in vitro the effects of LA on leptin production, as well as to elucidate the mechanisms and signalling pathways involved in LA actions.

Methods and results: Dietary supplementation with LA decreased both circulating leptin, and adipose tissue leptin mRNA in rats. Treatment of 3T3-L1 adipocytes with LA caused a concentration-dependent inhibition of leptin secretion and gene expression. Moreover, LA stimulated the anaerobic utilization of glucose to lactate, which negatively correlated with leptin secretion. Furthermore, LA enhanced phosphorylation of Sp1 and inhibited Sp1 transcriptional activity in 3T3-L1 adipocytes. Moreover, LA inhibited Akt phosphorylation, a downstream target of phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K). Treatment with the PI3K inhibitor LY294002 mimicked LA actions, dramatically inhibiting both leptin secretion and gene expression and stimulating Sp1 phosphorylation.

Conclusion: All of these data suggest that the phosphorylation of Sp1 and the accompanying reduced DNA-binding activity are likely to be involved in the inhibition of leptin induced by LA, which could be mediated in part by the abrogation of the PI3K/Akt pathway.
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Wow.. that's some news.

I haven't been using GDAs on refeed day since this 3d, but at this point
wouldn't be better not to use ALA AT ALL when dieting to avoid further drop of leptin?
 
Dang this is horrible. Any idea how relevant/significant this study was? I mean there is so much more saying that ALA is a wonder supplement. I dont know if I'd toss it out because of this one study.
 
mattrag said:
Dang this is horrible. Any idea how relevant/significant this study was? I mean there is so much more saying that ALA is a wonder supplement. I dont know if I'd toss it out because of this one study.
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cant really know aside from the full study to review it all.

AK- wouldnt matter while dieting, it would just make it less time to do a refeed

for example every 5 instead of 7 or something like that i would assume.

i only use it on refeed. and a lot of it. i saw no difference... however....... i havent taken it in almost 2 weeks. and im leaner now then i was. at prolly same caloric intake.
 
Sometimes I'm under the impression that we simply know very lil about what really happens inside our bodies,
every other day there is a study coming out stating completely the opposite of the one before, and different from
the one that will come.

Bah, I'll start to really cut *a lot* of stuff that I use to take, stick to the basics,
few good product that I know they work on me, good prewo and that's it.
Diet and kick ass training will do the rest
 
AutoKal47 said:
Sometimes I'm under the impression that we simply know very lil about what really happens inside our bodies,
every other day there is a study coming out stating completely the opposite of the one before, and different from
the one that will come.

Bah, I'll start to really cut *a lot* of stuff that I use to take, stick to the basics,
few good product that I know they work on me, good prewo and that's it.
Diet and kick ass training will do the rest
Click to expand...

Haha. Yup.
 
ssbackwards said:
ALA is amazing, i wont cut it out. i simply just dose higher.
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I dose ala pretty high as well. But mainly for overall health. Not just for gda
 
mattrag said:
I dose ala pretty high as well. But mainly for overall health. Not just for gda
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i gotta kilo of powder coming to my house this week!

and 1000 00 caps. gunna cap by hand and some other goodies. goat rue 3% gymnemma HCA yellowgold banaba (all mixed together)
 
ssbackwards said:
i gotta kilo of powder coming to my house this week!

and 1000 00 caps. gunna cap by hand and some other goodies. goat rue 3% gymnemma HCA yellowgold banaba (all mixed together)
Click to expand...

Omfg. That's one hell of a nutrient partitioner. Yg is great!!
 
I am not sure if this was asked/answered yet but someone who has taken GDAs can chime in...I am going to start my first GDA got glyocobol on sale so that is going to be my first go. Do you have to cycle off GDAs or is it a supplement you can consider a staple?
 
bigdavid said:
I am not sure if this was asked/answered yet but someone who has taken GDAs can chime in...I am going to start my first GDA got glyocobol on sale so that is going to be my first go. Do you have to cycle off GDAs or is it a supplement you can consider a staple?
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I do cycle Glycobol, I don't cycle Recompadrol, I still have to open the bottle of Slin Sane :)
 
Things with the organic salts of vanadium SHOULD BE CYCLED. Studies show BA and uptake is greater into vanadium sensitive tissue like lkidneys and boneVS has poor bioavailability and is excreted readily so I feel ot to be supperior and no need to cycle off VS supplementsAlso 30mg BMOV is equivalent to 50mg VSYou don't see gastro sides of either till you hit about 125-150mg VS and 90-120mg bmovHowever that dose will vary among person. Some people get gastro sides at 100mg vs or 60mg bmovHope this helps a little
 
What about using a GDA while bulking? Seems the mentioned of it in this thread is referred to cutting?
 
I love GDA's for bulking, always allows me to get in great amounts of cals, utilize what Im putting in better AND seems to minimize fat gain.
 
Yeah Im courious on these GDAs as well.
I have been an advid user of glycobol.
Tried slin-sane it was ok. I felt it worked decently.
I have been looking at recompadrol as of lately, havent gotten around to researching all the ingredients and I have been thinking about giving the glycobol a break and try the recompadrol which I will probably do, but I want some feedback from people that knows those ingredients inside out or have used both products.
 
What dose on the Cinnamon 4:1?

Specifically how should one dose GDA's (Na-Rala, Recompadrol) in reference to dieting? With or without carb meals? Before or after workout?
 
I have been using leangains for quite a while now and have achieved a lot. I've recently incorporated carb back loading into my eating formula. Here is a sample of my eating schedule for a typical week.

M-F = Workout Days

break fast at noon = 800 calories, less than 50g carbs, 125-150g protein, XXg fat

Pre workout (sometimes) = 120 calories, 24g protein from scoop of whey

Post workout = 1680 calories, more than 200g carbs, 75-100g protein, XXg fat. Depending on what time it is, how tired I am, blah blah blah, I may split this into a typical post workout shake and another meal afterwards or I may just eat it all in one sitting.

2600 calorie daily avg

Sat-Sun = Non workout days

2000 calorie daily avg with around 30-100g carbs max

I have Recompadrol and Slin Sane and have been using them for my post workout meal, but after skimming through this thread it seems that is a bad idea. I'm looking for some help figuring out how to use them more efficiently given my schedule or even some redirection as far as my schedule goes. Thanks and if there is just a certain post in this thread I should reread to get my answer feel free to point me in that direction and I'll stfu lol.
 
houstontexas said:
I have been using leangains for quite a while now and have achieved a lot. I've recently incorporated carb back loading into my eating formula. Here is a sample of my eating schedule for a typical week.

M-F = Workout Days

break fast at noon = 800 calories, less than 50g carbs, 125-150g protein, XXg fat

Pre workout (sometimes) = 120 calories, 24g protein from scoop of whey

Post workout = 1680 calories, more than 200g carbs, 75-100g protein, XXg fat. Depending on what time it is, how tired I am, blah blah blah, I may split this into a typical post workout shake and another meal afterwards or I may just eat it all in one sitting.

2600 calorie daily avg

Sat-Sun = Non workout days

2000 calorie daily avg with around 30-100g carbs max

I have Recompadrol and Slin Sane and have been using them for my post workout meal, but after skimming through this thread it seems that is a bad idea. I'm looking for some help figuring out how to use them more efficiently given my schedule or even some redirection as far as my schedule goes. Thanks and if there is just a certain post in this thread I should reread to get my answer feel free to point me in that direction and I'll stfu lol.
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Thanks for posting this but whats with the X for fat? How much fat are with these meals?
 
Devil's advocate time:

Where is the proof that any or all of these GDA's in any form force the carbs into the muscle cells verses the adipocytes/fat cells? Enhanced insulin sensitivity/glucose tolerance is one thing, enhanced muscle cell sensitivity is entirely different.

If the subject worked out/trained, cool, the muscle cell receptors are extra sensitive already (while the fat cells are desesitized/resistant) and I subscribe the theory that the glucose will preferentially be directed towards these muscle cells (as opposed to fat cells)....but this occurs with or w/o GDAs.

However, when in a non-trained state, no matter the pathways/MOA utilized here (be it increased insulin sensitivity or enhanced insulin release), I guess I have yet to see anything that supports the use of these GDA's. I have an open mind and would like to accept the science, if one can prove it to me.

What drives me nuts is when people attempt to substantiate the proof by making statements like "When I'm taking GDA's with carbs, I dont feel as lethargic post-prandially". Again, where is the proof that these GDA's are directing the carbs towards muscles instead of fat cells? Removing the carbs from the blood quicker, even when it enters the fat cells instead, will cause a decreased perception of malaise post-carb intake for the carb-sensitive crowd. So will a small dose of caffeine :)

***Look, I do not dispute the ability of these agents to clear the blood of glucose in an more expeditious fashion. I just want to see more studies validating the claims that these GDA's are actually useful in mitigating lipogensis to any appreciable degree by allegedly forcing the activity/changing the processes by which insulin PREFERS to shuttle the carbs towards muscle cells preferentially. I've tried a plethora of these GDA's over the years and while they certainly assist with the feeling of laziness, I have yet to experience any leaning effects as these products claim to impart.
 
the studies are basically shown in those of PPARy antagonist. This nuclear receptor needs to be activated for adipogenesis, as does AKT (and a number of others)

These are shown as you know, in many products. They reduce the chances of increased adipogenesis via inhibition of that pathway. Cellular uptake into the cells is one thing, but when the cell matures and splits is a totally different one.

Heres a little something to read on PPARy agonists vs antagonists if you would like to know more.

Invalid Link Removed

Remember PPARy inhibition can increase adiponectin which is necessary for insulin sensitivity. It aids in fat loss and UCP1 (i believe)/ energy disspation as stated in the above link
 
Sup SS.

That study did provide an argument in support of preferential shuttling of glucose into muscle cells vs fat cells.

PS: In the mean while - what PPARy inhibitors/antagonists are even available?
 
antagonists: Berberine, Fucoxanthin

Partial agonists: Salacia Reticulata

off hand that is what i can remember strictly antagonizing the PPARy, There are definetly more, some tannins i believe from the banaba leaf.

Possibly african mango and specific extracts of bitter melon.


They are in numerous products. most GDAs will have one or another. Non stim fat burners SHOULD have one or another (or something that works similarly to supress adipogenesis but not by the PPARy pathway)

This is why GDAs work with or without carbs. It still activated or attenuates specific receptors.
 
Good stuff. Thanks SS

Back OT though as I am still looking for validation that these GDA's supposedly get shuttled into muscle vs fat (in a non-trained state)
 
The only thing I can think of isa PPARa agonist mixed with narangin. Narangin blocks glucose into adipose cell causing freed fatty acids and insulin resistance in adipose cells but not muscle cellsIts similar to a state called diabulimia (seen only in type one diabetics) except in nondiabetics muscle and liver still uptake. How safe it is long term, I'm not 100% sure
 
Now that would be HUGE if proven real world ;)
 
ssbackwards said:
The only thing I can think of isa PPARa agonist mixed with narangin. Narangin blocks glucose into adipose cell causing freed fatty acids and insulin resistance in adipose cells but not muscle cellsIts similar to a state called diabulimia (seen only in type one diabetics) except in nondiabetics muscle and liver still uptake. How safe it is long term, I'm not 100% sure
Click to expand...

Check out cyclodextrin naringenin and the Harvard research done on it in humans.
 
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