Guest viewing limit reached
  • You have reached the maximum number of guest views allowed
  • Please register below to remove this limitation

Gay Curriculum Proposal Riles Elementary School Parents

You need to calm the fuck down, obviously. You have an issue with people who oppose your narrow-minded beliefs, and throw a tantrum like a child whenever that situation arises.

I can read, but can you? Before your piss-fight here, you may have read the question instead: why do you not differentiate homosexuals from other minorities?

Jesus Christ, it is the internet. You throw a fit like this when people disagree with you in class? I fucking hope not.

You didn't disagree, you passive-aggressively insulted me and I don't stand for it. I don't have beef with people who politely disagree with me...and why do you feel it's such a bad thing to be narrow-minded? Do you feel you aren't? I've never once seen you accept another posters conflicting viewpoint to an argument over your own. I have an opinion, and I often believe that my opinion is correct - I'm not going to get all hippie, "everyone is right, no one is wrong" just to appease someone, and neither would you.

Why the hell should I not differentiate a sexual lifestyle from Hispanics, Blacks, Arabs, Native Americans, and other minority cultures and races? If you are speaking specifically about sexual orientation, then obviously homosexuals are the "minority" compared to hetero, and can be viewed as such in that discussion, but you're grouping all minorities of both sexual preference and race/culture/ethnicity together in the same damn category.
 
And to your rep comment, I act the way I do because you poke me with a stick and I'm not a doormat like so many other people.

I'm an Irishman from the South Side of Chicago. We do things differently, and words are enough to start a war, so don't act like you are doing nothing wrong. I'll be civil if you act in that manner, and your smug attitude doesn't help.
 
And to your rep comment, I act the way I do because you poke me with a stick and I'm not a doormat like so many other people.

I'm an Irishman from the South Side of Chicago. We do things differently, and words are enough to start a war, so don't act like you are doing nothing wrong. I'll be civil if you act in that manner, and your smug attitude doesn't help.

I could really care less who you are, where you are from, or how you represent yourself. I know you are a smug, morally-conservative prick whose holier-than-thou-little-on-fact opinions are tiresome and annoying. I get sick of you shoving your Christian-Conservative attitudes in people's faces, and judging the movements and actions of any person smart enough to realize Rush Limbaugh is a fucking idiot. The point of the rep comment, you jack-off, was to point out that things such as this are best said in private. With your little hissy-fit, you decided to bring it in the open which I am more than happy to oblige.

As for how I passively-aggressively insulted you, please. I stated a fact: I feel shoving religious attitudes packaged as pseudo-logic is a problem. Quit acting as if you presented your opinions in some objective manner, detached from your religion; you most certainly did not, and brought up religion in this thread yourself.

Why the hell should I not differentiate a sexual lifestyle from Hispanics, Blacks, Arabs, Native Americans, and other minority cultures and races? If you are speaking specifically about sexual orientation, then obviously homosexuals are the "minority" compared to hetero, and can be viewed as such in that discussion, but you're grouping all minorities of both sexual preference and race/culture/ethnicity together in the same damn category.

So you feel homosexuals are a majority group? They are a minority group by definition, you ****. As for why I consider them on equal footing [from a social standpoint] to, say, a "racial" minority, it is because to certain extents their issues from both a policy-making and social context ring the same - particularly, the issues faced re: tolerance and integration. And further, you are implying something here you have stated specifically elsewhere on this site: that "orientation" is an inherently social choice, not a biological phenomenon; and so, you trivialize it in that sense as a choice, and therefore as less defensible than something like race or ethnicity. I consider these "categories" to be equal in the context of not discriminating against any individual based on characteristics attendant to that person beyond their control.
 
And so, the way a person decides to "do gay" is, from a discrimination standpoint, alienable from the fact that they "are gay", and needs to be viewed in that context; much in the same way how an individual "does black" is alienable from the fact they "are black". The actions attendant to both situations thereto are considerable as pure choice, while the underlying identity of "blackness" or "gayness" are not, and; therefore, should be considered on equal footing in regard to minority-status and the policy/social implications therein. I consider "sexual orientation" the same minority status as race identity, culture and so forth because the underlying premise of not discriminating based on the indelible and un-manufacturable traits of an individual is fundamental to how I feel we should operate.
 
It's not necessarily about changing your mind. Knowing an argument and disagreeing is one thing, but being oblivious to the fact that a counter-argument to your POV even exists is an intellectually indefensible position.

Plus, look at this way, if you get into a discussion with an atheist (or whatever) he could very easily make you look like a fool in your ignorance. If you've already heard all his arguments before however, then you'll have a much better chance of standing your ground and not looking like a fool. Or alternatavely, try thinking of it as a test of faith. Expanding your own knowledge rarely puts you at a disadvantage.

And it really is a very short book, you could read it in under an hour.

I understand your point. Actually last night I quizzed a christian friend about theories and possibilities and talked about the muteness in debating with an educated atheist. Talked about theories, and I even posed the idea "God could have a brother you know" all kinds of weird crap that generally isnt accepted. I test my own faith daily, which is why I maintain secular friend who understand me. And I even defended muslims last night and their quran or whatever hahah.

So close mindedness is not my thing, though in some debates on this board it may seem so. I often pick an extreme view and argue it, because only an extreme view will get extreme answers instead of generalized BS. Only like 2 people have figured this out about me, and realized im not as over zealous as they though hahah.

I will look into the book. I need to hit a store up anyways, I am on my last Horus Hersey space marine book, Legion, and I need a new one :(
 
And so, the way a person decides to "do gay" is, from a discrimination standpoint, alienable from the fact that they "are gay", and needs to be viewed in that context; much in the same way how an individual "does black" is alienable from the fact they "are black". The actions attendant to both situations thereto are considerable as pure choice, while the underlying identity of "blackness" or "gayness" are not, and; therefore, should be considered on equal footing in regard to minority-status and the policy/social implications therein. I consider "sexual orientation" the same minority status as race identity, culture and so forth because the underlying premise of not discriminating based on the indelible and un-manufacturable traits of an individual is fundamental to how I feel we should operate.

Blacks can exist on an island and bring future generations. Whites can, Asians can, hispanics can, etc.

Put a bunch of homos on an island, and they die off in 1 generation.

Not only is it against moral values and religious ones, Darwinism and the theory of evolution would see them as cancer to our species. They bring no advancement or benefit to the species. They dont diversify the gene pool, they dont pass along genetic potential(though that may be a good thing).

No view point, religious or atheist or agnostic, supports homosexuality as a proper function. If anything it is a mental disorder, and should be treated as such.

The problem with humans today, is we are TOO accepting. A quick throwback to the 1500s would do the world good.
 
And there isn't apparently enough budgetary dollars to teach those highschoolers how to read and write and do math and science at an acceptable level, so there is no budgetary dollars to be wasted on "here's an alternative lifestyle" classes :)

you really believe this is all public high schools in the US? C'mon you know better than that.

The 2 districts I have worked in had 99% graduation rates and 92% to 4 year colleges.
 
No view point, religious or atheist or agnostic, supports homosexuality as a proper function. If anything it is a mental disorder, and should be treated as such.

The problem with humans today, is we are TOO accepting. A quick throwback to the 1500s would do the world good.

What do you want to teach zero? I ask as (no disrespect here) you are exceptionally close minded, and if in a public school, that attitude might not last long in the classroom.

A quck throwback? So if there is an educated woman we should call them a witch and either drown, burn or stone them? :rolleyes:
 
What do you want to teach zero? I ask as (no disrespect here) you are exceptionally close minded, and if in a public school, that attitude might not last long in the classroom.

A quck throwback? So if there is an educated woman we should call them a witch and either drown, burn or stone them? :rolleyes:

In light of the more ignorant second half of that.

I am not close minded in the sense you think. But I must take up certain points. If anything the people who fight so hard for some of these things(gays for one) are closed minded. They are unwilling to look at the possibilities of it being wrong, there fore the person against it is "close minded"

Close mindedness is an term thrown around by someone unsure what to say.

Maybe people arent close minded, but others are just fked up in the head and dont have a clue whats best for humanity?

We may have a few more tech gadgets and medical advances, but moral and spiritual corruption has been, is currently, and will lead mankind down a path of self destruction. Why not every one go gay? Wait mankind would cease to exist...so then its obviously wrong for the species, therefore should be classified wrong.

Racists are close minded, nothing morally wrong or bad for the species just because of your race. That being said KKK and Black Panthers are idiots in the extreme.

Disputing about religions is one thing, but harming people over it is another, and would qualify for close mindedness. A religion(save for cults, which should be wiped out) does not inherently harm the world.

Woman's rights, trying to block them from doing something they are perfectly capable of is close minded(I still dont think they should be soldiers personally). No beef there either, supported.

All 3 of those items though allow for mankind to advance if every single person did it, we would prosper.

Now like I said, have all the guys plug each others butts and all the girls scissor around for a bit.
We die in 1 generation....

Failure for the species. Only a fool would condone behavior that is harmful to a species, yet alone a country.
 
In light of the more ignorant second half of that.

I am not close minded in the sense you think. But I must take up certain points. If anything the people who fight so hard for some of these things(gays for one) are closed minded. They are unwilling to look at the possibilities of it being wrong, there fore the person against it is "close minded"

Close mindedness is an term thrown around by someone unsure what to say.

Maybe people arent close minded, but others are just fked up in the head and dont have a clue whats best for humanity?

We may have a few more tech gadgets and medical advances, but moral and spiritual corruption has been, is currently, and will lead mankind down a path of self destruction. Why not every one go gay? Wait mankind would cease to exist...so then its obviously wrong for the species, therefore should be classified wrong.

Close minded means, not being able to openly grasp and accept other beliefs and/or ways of life. Which it seems is your issue.

Personally, I have no issue with homosexuality, it is not my lifestyle, but as long as no one is getting hurt I have no issue.

In terms of, why not "everyone go gay", that is foolish and you know better than that.

Also, morality is subjective and you know that as well.

Finally, my last part in the previous post is not ignorant in any way. You wanted a throwback to the 16th cent. Well I gave you one :)
 
Close minded means, not being able to openly grasp and accept other beliefs and/or ways of life. Which it seems is your issue.

Personally, I have no issue with homosexuality, it is not my lifestyle, but as long as no one is getting hurt I have no issue.

In terms of, why not "everyone go gay", that is foolish and you know better than that.

Also, morality is subjective and you know that as well.

Finally, my last part in the previous post is not ignorant in any way. You wanted a throwback to the 16th cent. Well I gave you one :)

I will re add what I added into my last post

""Racists are close minded, nothing morally wrong or bad for the species just because of your race. That being said KKK and Black Panthers are idiots in the extreme.

Disputing about religions is one thing, but harming people over it is another, and would qualify for close mindedness. A religion(save for cults, which should be wiped out) does not inherently harm the world.

Woman's rights, trying to block them from doing something they are perfectly capable of is close minded(I still dont think they should be soldiers personally). No beef there either, supported.

All 3 of those items though allow for mankind to advance if every single person did it, we would prosper.

Now like I said, have all the guys plug each others butts and all the girls scissor around for a bit.
We die in 1 generation....

Failure for the species. Only a fool would condone behavior that is harmful to a species, yet alone a country.""


morality being subjective means I can personally justify killing a man, and the law should leave me alone because I didnt find it morally wrong...

Without a "grand moral" mankind is doomed. Likely to be turd burgled to death at this rate.

This is where religions have helped and guided nations over the centuries, Christianity, Jewdiesm, Taoism, Budhism, even Mormans. They all give people lines that are not to be crossed, and as long as those lines are respected things will remain balanced.

Today where teh "cool" thing to do is reject anything that tells you what you can and cant do people are losing sight of morals. I mean its ok to destroy your body, be a whore or man whore, step on others to advance business, etc.

In America, morality is definitely something that has been dissipating. The future of our nation is sealed, it doesnt deserve an economic rebound, it deserves to burn at its current chosen path.
 
Not to make this a religious lesson but if you read the Tao, it is not about morality. In essence, the Buddha's teaching aren't truly about morality either. Religion does not make one moral, it is how they are raised.

Your example on the subjective nature of morals was an extreme one, and one that does not work for the general population.
 
Blacks can exist on an island and bring future generations. Whites can, Asians can, hispanics can, etc.

Put a bunch of homos on an island, and they die off in 1 generation.

Not only is it against moral values and religious ones, Darwinism and the theory of evolution would see them as cancer to our species. They bring no advancement or benefit to the species. They dont diversify the gene pool, they dont pass along genetic potential(though that may be a good thing).

Homosexuality is against certain moral and religious values, in particular. And further, a majority of the industrialized nations [excluding more backward nations like China, Russia, etc.,] have far less moral opposition to homosexuality than the United States. As AE14 said, you are exceptionally close-minded insofar as assuming the values of the moral right in the United States ring true in other nations, other regions, other cultures and so forth.

In terms of the evolutionary argument, I am not going to address that in any depth, and you know why. You spent several pages arguing against the existence of evolution in a previous thread, and; you readily admitted you are not versed enough in the subject of evolutionary biology to openly discuss it. And so, I am confused as to why you bring it up here. To briefly provide my position, though, what you are saying is, in my opinion, again completely inconsistent with established trends in evolutionary science. You said prior that you were open to reading more on evolution, and I would suggest you do that.

No view point, religious or atheist or agnostic, supports homosexuality as a proper function. If anything it is a mental disorder, and should be treated as such.

This is absolutely foolish, and there is no other way to say it. There are thousands upon thousands of moral positions that endorse and celebrate homosexuality; to even consider for a moment that every position is, or will be, the same as yours, is ridiculous.

In regard to proper function, I feel you are ascribing moral characteristics to biological phenomena, and then judging them based on the veracity of your moral opinions. A biological function is "proper" to the extent that it exists and does not result in pathological disease states within the organism. The site mutation known as "the gay gene" is similar to site mutations which regulate the myostatin in one's body, the amount of melanin gene-expression and so forth.

I respect your right to voice an opinion, but in the future, I would like to see your scientific opinions be much more evidential. I feel you will find it hard to interact with non-religious individuals, if you continually dictate untruths from a scientific standpoint. Moral opinions are always accepted, but muddying the scientific waters with blatant mistruths and unsubstantiated opinions is, in my opinion, not.
 
"you must spread some reputation around before giving it to mulletsoldier again."
couldnt agree more my friend
 
Homosexuality is against certain moral and religious values, in particular .... assuming the values of the moral right in the United States ring true in other nations, other regions, other cultures and so forth.
I agree with you here mullet. I think the crux of the argument lies in defining the difference between a moral value and a cultural value.

Moral values are essentially rules that govern our interaction with other people, so that we all act in a way that benefits everybodys well-being (killing, stealing, lying etc). They are grounded in the facts of the 'human condition' and as such are universal. Death is a universal phenomenon, therefore any moral law governing killing must also be universal.

Cultural values, on the other hand, have to do with the preconceptions of a particular society. Things like wearing clothes in public, politeness or homosexuality are examples of cultural values. They are not universal and vary from place to place (aswell as time to time).

What religion often does is confuse the two, so we end up with moral values that have no reasonable basis, which often do more harm than good (like people dying of AIDS because the church has outlawed condoms etc). Simply being homosexual doesn't actually affect anybody elses well-being so, reasonably, it can't be immoral, only 'culturally unacceptable'.
 
I could really care less who you are, where you are from, or how you represent yourself. I know you are a smug, morally-conservative prick whose holier-than-thou-little-on-fact opinions are tiresome and annoying. I get sick of you shoving your Christian-Conservative attitudes in people's faces, and judging the movements and actions of any person smart enough to realize Rush Limbaugh is a fucking idiot. The point of the rep comment, you jack-off, was to point out that things such as this are best said in private. With your little hissy-fit, you decided to bring it in the open which I am more than happy to oblige.

As for how I passively-aggressively insulted you, please. I stated a fact: I feel shoving religious attitudes packaged as pseudo-logic is a problem. Quit acting as if you presented your opinions in some objective manner, detached from your religion; you most certainly did not, and brought up religion in this thread yourself.



So you feel homosexuals are a majority group? They are a minority group by definition, you ****. As for why I consider them on equal footing [from a social standpoint] to, say, a "racial" minority, it is because to certain extents their issues from both a policy-making and social context ring the same - particularly, the issues faced re: tolerance and integration. And further, you are implying something here you have stated specifically elsewhere on this site: that "orientation" is an inherently social choice, not a biological phenomenon; and so, you trivialize it in that sense as a choice, and therefore as less defensible than something like race or ethnicity. I consider these "categories" to be equal in the context of not discriminating against any individual based on characteristics attendant to that person beyond their control.

Closed-minded bla bla bla. That's all I ****ing hear from you leftists. Everyone can have an opinion these days except Christian-conservatives, and as soon as we speak our mind, we're shoving our beliefs in everyone's face.

Why are you telling me I said homosexuals are a majority group? I clearly stated they are a minority group in a discussion of sexual orientation. - And second, I never, EVER stated on this site that homosexuality is purely choice. I believe it can be both choice and biological (usually through development as a child), but just because something is biological doesn't mean it's right. Uh oh! There it is again! My closed-minded opinion!

And the point of addressing the rep comment in the thread, you jack off (<---see how lame this sounds?), is because I'm sick of our exchanges always ending in you repping me to have your say. It's just kind of obnoxious.

And with Rush Limbaugh, I don't even know why you brought him into this. Maybe because he actually has a foundation of common sense in his beliefs, and you envy that?...But I'm more of a Michael Savage fan, to tell you the truth.
 
As for bringing in evolution, I know enough and have taken enough biology courses(college included) to know enough about it. Not to argue its existence in purest form, but no species would naturally have a homosexual tendency. It would mean extinction for that species if a genetic defect started to make it homosexual for the most part. You cant argue with that fact, which anything that is destructive to a species is not natural to that species, and is a problem that has risen out of something gone wrong.

I used evolution, because it supports the same conclusion the religious aspect does. Homosexuals would not survive if hetero sexuals didn't do all the work to keep the species going.

The idea of it, is simply roused and reinforced by our societies lack of integrity and desire to make people feel like outcasts, and in such people seek out acceptance in some form from some branch of the off-cast human desires that are labeled as not normal.

I admire your grammatical structuring and robust vocabulary, but in the same time it makes me find your posts as void to me because they cover up self confusion as interpreted by me.

Almost every theory of AIDS ties into the homosexual lifestyle. Either that or Africans banging monkeys, and personally I choose the first option as most likely. In all likely hood that would support them being flukes, and a genetic defect.

Personally I think it is a form of judgment.

I may not know every damn thing in the world. But clear enough some of us can see the end of mankind if certain aspects are put in check, with homosexuality only being a small portion of course.

If anything children in school should be taught homosexuality is wrong, negative, and bad for our species. Not to bash those who choose that lifestyle, but to steer from it as a patch of destruction, as that is what it is. Cancer in one of its various forms on society.

None of your colored blabbering can change that, and there is no evidential requirements to say gays are a scourge. If anything they are found to be less mentally stable, and more inclined to mental illnesses, and that was from research done by your favorite guys who wear white coats and say the universe came into existence because a super gnat farted and thus we had the big bang...
 
Closed-minded bla bla bla. That's all I ****ing hear from you leftists. Everyone can have an opinion these days except Christian-conservatives, and as soon as we speak our mind, we're shoving our beliefs in everyone's face.

Not a leftist, but nice effort. See, that is the difference between you and I: it is easy and clear to pigeon-hole you into a label, because of the fact you are an obnoxious parrot. That also differentiates being close-minded from being passionate about an opinion.

Why are you telling me I said homosexuals are a majority group? I clearly stated they are a minority group in a discussion of sexual orientation. - And second, I never, EVER stated on this site that homosexuality is purely choice. I believe it can be both choice and biological (usually through development as a child), but just because something is biological doesn't mean it's right. Uh oh! There it is again! My closed-minded opinion!

Great sarcasm here, really poignant.

And the point of addressing the rep comment in the thread, you jack off (<---see how lame this sounds?), is because I'm sick of our exchanges always ending in you repping me to have your say. It's just kind of obnoxious.

I have my "say" there, because it is more suitable than having a bitch-fit on an open forum. However, given the fact you are "a south Chicago Irishman and do things differently" [thanks for the heads up; good to know you take your cues from 50's gangster films] you decided to whine like an eight-year old girl on here.

And with Rush Limbaugh, I don't even know why you brought him into this. Maybe because he actually has a foundation of common sense in his beliefs, and you envy that?...But I'm more of a Michael Savage fan, to tell you the truth.

Yes, quite: a middle-aged paranoid pill-popper who abuses facts like they are his immigrant workers is swimming in about as much common sense as you are. That is another amusing thing about you: you pride yourself on your "South Chicago common sense", but your head is jammed so far in your ass in regard to everything from politics to economics they will need a search party to dig it out. You wouldn't sound half as moronic as you do if you would verify the things you hear/see on Conservative blogs and talk radio. (Your idiotic posts about "green jobs" having an economic impact is a key example - note to Irish: Glenn Beck is not a viable source.) Instead, you squawk-squawk like a parrot.

At any rate, I will let you have your reply to this, and be done. You can even have the last word!
 
As for bringing in evolution, I know enough and have taken enough biology courses(college included) to know enough about it. Not to argue its existence in purest form, but no species would naturally have a homosexual tendency. It would mean extinction for that species if a genetic defect started to make it homosexual for the most part. You cant argue with that fact, which anything that is destructive to a species is not natural to that species, and is a problem that has risen out of something gone wrong.

No, it does not. Several mammalian species have homosexual/asexual/adaptive sexual tendencies. As for the rest: I never stated that a majority-homosexual species can procreate viably, but; that does not mean your massive leap of logic that it is a mental pathology is correct either.

I admire your grammatical structuring and robust vocabulary, but in the same time it makes me find your posts as void to me because they cover up self confusion as interpreted by me.

Oh kid, give me a break. My posts are void to you because you incoherently ramble on about topics you have no business rambling on about - whenever somebody injects some substantiated discussion into your nonsense double-speak, I am sure it is void to you.

Almost every theory of AIDS ties into the homosexual lifestyle. Either that or Africans banging monkeys, and personally I choose the first option as most likely. In all likely hood that would support them being flukes, and a genetic defect.

Almost every: okay, I will take you on your word, and wait for you to verify that statement. If almost every theory states that, then it should be an easy task.

None of your colored blabbering can change that, and there is no evidential requirements to say gays are a scourge. If anything they are found to be less mentally stable, and more inclined to mental illnesses, and that was from research done by your favorite guys who wear white coats and say the universe came into existence because a super gnat farted and thus we had the big bang...

Again, you are either lying or do not know better. Nothing you say is substantiated, and it is an issue with somebody who yammers on as much as you do. Take any part of your post here, and substantiate it with an article, study, book, anything! I am all ears for your perspectives.
 
Not a leftist, but nice effort. See, that is the difference between you and I: it is easy and clear to pigeon-hole you into a label, because of the fact you are an obnoxious parrot. That also differentiates being close-minded from being passionate about an opinion.

So you're telling me that you're not on the left side of the political spectrum? Is that a joke? You constantly tell others on here to embrace the Obama administrations policies. You defend socialism. You attack every Christian-conservative that opens his or her mouth for having an opinion based off of religious text. Dude I could go on and on here. I called you a leftist out of mild respect, because I don't know exactly where you fall, but it's damn-well not near me.

Great sarcasm here, really poignant.

I'm right and you know it. As soon as I state my opinion, I'm closed-minded to you.

I have my "say" there, because it is more suitable than having a bitch-fit on an open forum. However, given the fact you are "a south Chicago Irishman and do things differently" [thanks for the heads up; good to know you take your cues from 50's gangster films] you decided to whine like an eight-year old girl on here.

Umm...What?

My great-grandfather was in the Irish mafia. I've learned from the best; the films learned from us. ;)

Yes, quite: a middle-aged paranoid pill-popper who abuses facts like they are his immigrant workers is swimming in about as much common sense as you are. That is another amusing thing about you: you pride yourself on your "South Chicago common sense", but your head is jammed so far in your ass in regard to everything from politics to economics they will need a search party to dig it out. You wouldn't sound half as moronic as you do if you would verify the things you hear/see on Conservative blogs and talk radio. (Your idiotic posts about "green jobs" having an economic impact is a key example - note to Irish: Glenn Beck is not a viable source.) Instead, you squawk-squawk like a parrot.
Rush WAS a pill-popper and quit, but I don't see how that's very valid. Freud was a cocaine-addict but I don't see you mentioning him. - I'd like to know what abusive facts you speak of.

The Glenn Beck thing came from a Spanish economist that was a guest on the show. You can search for the data yourself.

You really love bringing up Fox News and conservative talk radio don't you? As if those are my only sources of information. Would you care to tell me why you think liberals do such a crappy job on the radio? Why no one listens? Why no one cares?
 
You are establishing that I am using the term "close-minded" as synonymous with Christian-Conservative, or; at the very least, that "close-minded" is indicative of the specific mind-frame therein. I don't think that is how I am using the term. I would consider "close-minded" to be a state where you accept all proponents and works that contain your views as automatically correct, and all proponents and works that disagree with your views as incorrect. And so, I feel you fit that description, and accept most things presented from your perspectives. Despite my pseudo-intellect, I can still ascertain the definition of close-minded.

As for being "Leftist": that is a fairly large generalization. I hardly defend Obama's policies as they are, and instead voice words of caution in respect to judging something prior to it coming to fruition - you know, insight and common sense and all. In fact, I am a bit troubled with the extension of the overseas military empire ala every other president. As well, aside from yourself, I would love to hear which Christian-Conservatives that I attack - it is the opposite in this thread..

The Glenn Beck thing came from a Spanish economist that was a guest on the show. You can search for the data yourself.

I did look up the data.

Irish Cannon said:
If only that's all there was to it.

Spain tried this "going green" nonsense and their data showed that for every "green" job created, 2.11 jobs in other sectors were lost.

Mulletsoldier said:
Not so, at all. Unless one gets their data solely from conservative talking-heads like Glenn Beck, the issue is appreciably more complicated; and this complexity is due in large part to the methodological issues afoot in Mr. Alvarez's study.

To cut to the "brass tax", so to speak, let us look at the most fundamental component of this study: the job creation to loss ratio. By Mr. Alvarez's estimates [see: http://www.juandemariana.org/pdf/090...renewable.pdf] the Spanish Government has created 50, 000 jobs as a direct result of the cap-and-trade 'green subsidy' program - the United Nations, on the other hand, estimates the absolute job creation to be in excess of 100, 000 jobs under the new policy, significantly diminishing the impact of Mr. Alvarez's results. This is in addition to the official estimates from Spain's government [maybe as skewed as Alvarez's] which posit, like the UN, more than double Alvarez's estimates, and directly refute his dollar-per-job estimates in regard to absolute losses.

As well, "The European Union has been in the forefront of renewables development, setting ambitious targets. In coming decades, this policy can be expected to create large numbers of new jobs. A modeling exercise supported by the EU found that under current policies, there would be about 950,000 direct and indirect full-time jobs by 2010 and 1.4 million by 2020. These are “net” numbers— taking into account potential job losses in conventional energy and relating to renewables support mechanisms, which may result in lower spending elsewhere in the economy." [see: http://www.unep.org/labour_environme...2section1.pdf]

Spain has certainly had its shortcomings in regard to policy application here, but the EU as a whole has seen tremendous growth in so-called "renewable markets". The model here would obviously be Germany, with approximately 192,000 net job increases since 1998 in wind, solar, hydro, geothermal and associated services industries. In fact, certain cities in Germany operating off of a "green model" contain energy-producing houses which sell the excess electricity produced by the houses on a monthly bases to energy companies, for a profit in the high range of $1,000 per household.

Finally, none of this takes into consideration prominent US-based studies at the University of Massachusetts, for example, that directly refute Mr. Alvarez's findings - nor is it taking into consideration the fact Alvarez has previously been funded by Exxon Mobile to the tune of $1.6 million dollars, and this study in particular was funded by a think-tank who receives appreciable oil money as well. It also does not take into account that the Energy Information Administration's own review of the potential market impacts of a EU-like program directly refute Alvarez's results, as well.

At any rate, I am unsure where I stand on so-called "cap-and-trade" and "green subsidy programs" in the North American market from a moral-pragmatic standpoint; I have even more reservations when considering their viability. However, the Spanish study needs to be read and presented in context, and not in the reduced state presented by Glenn Beck and so forth.

Irish Cannon said:
I say drill. We've got the oil, let's use it.

Mulletsoldier said:
Depending upon your geographic viewpoint here, the issue is not so simple. Conservatives, for example, are so adamant about drilling in Alaska's off-shore supplies when, in reality, the contribution to total US-domestic crude production derived thereof would be miniscule - if I am not mistaken [which I may be] well under 1%. Unfortunately, the US is not particularly [considered in relation to so-called "oil rich" countries] rich with crude supplies, and thus, the conundrum it finds itself in now.

To illuminate the lack of cogency in the "drill now" argument, one need look no further than the US's previous stature as the largest oil-exporter of crude for the majority-half of the 20th century. In fact, until circa 1975 or so, the US was the world's largest producer of crude, and since that point has steadily declined [see: http://www.energybulletin.net/node/27919]. End-point, peak-oil, whatever one chooses to call it, is a fundamental reality of the US energy discourse - as such, "drill now" may not be the most cogent argument out there! While I certainly empathize with your position - particularly the push-back you feel because Environmentalists are so ****ing douchey; man I despise them at times - I think that the US does need to seek out a comprehensive energy strategy beyond probing for, and hoping for, more proven reserves beyond their dwindling supplies.

The fact is, Irish: if you had any other sources aside from several conservative news blogs, and their ilk, there would be no reason to bring it up. I at least attempt to critically interpret everything I come into contact with, whether or not it accords my personal politic.

At any rate, this discussion obviously isn't going anywhere.
 
Oh kid, give me a break. My posts are void to you because you incoherently ramble on about topics you have no business rambling on about - whenever somebody injects some substantiated discussion into your nonsense double-speak, I am sure it is void to you.

Overly imbibed posting do not I should.
 
Let's steer this back towards the topics at hand, this is getting really nasty in here.

Does anyone believe that this should be taught in grades K-5? (Ages ~4.5-11 respectfully)

Upon reading the overviews of the curriculum, Invalid Link Removed, it's more of a curriculum of tolerance. They don't use the words 'Gay' or 'Lesbian' until grade 4. In grade 3, they bring up the idea of 2 Moms or 2 Dads as being the top of a family unit. 'Bisexual' and 'Transgender' aren't used until grade 5.

Either way I still think that these topics are a little more complex than young children should be introduced to. Can we please shift this back towards the topic at hand?
 
You really love bringing up Fox News and conservative talk radio don't you? As if those are my only sources of information. Would you care to tell me why you think liberals do such a crappy job on the radio? Why no one listens? Why no one cares?

Because liberals are morons, equal to or exceeding the idiocy of conservatives, but they are less abrasive; and so, usually people are less drawn to their radio shows. This is not an either/or situation for me, and I am not a liberal-leftist.
 
:frustrate
 
:frustrate

Ha, no I was writing that prior to your question, SB.

I saw the curriculum as well, but at 5-11, I still think you are asking a child to understand a fairly complex social dynamic. I know they are not going in-depth with what constitutes being "gay/lesbian/transgender", but my primary fear would be a warped understanding of the LGBT community, for the worse. I also think that the curriculum, in a way, trivializes the social experience of homosexuality, so I would rather see it presented at at time when a youth can appreciate and understand that.
 
Let's steer this back towards the topics at hand, this is getting really nasty in here.

Does anyone believe that this should be taught in grades K-5? (Ages ~4.5-11 respectfully)

Upon reading the overviews of the curriculum, Invalid Link Removed, it's more of a curriculum of tolerance. They don't use the words 'Gay' or 'Lesbian' until grade 4. In grade 3, they bring up the idea of 2 Moms or 2 Dads as being the top of a family unit. 'Bisexual' and 'Transgender' aren't used until grade 5.

Either way I still think that these topics are a little more complex than young children should be introduced to. Can we please shift this back towards the topic at hand?
It not necessarily about "gay" but rather the acceptance of the perversion of the structure of a family unit.

There are core roles that a woman and a man play in the modeling and healthy development of a child. Two mom's don't model that nor do two dad's.

"Love and Care" does not empower and equip two women to raise a boy to be a man, nor does it empower and equip a two men to raise a girl to be a woman.
 
It not necessarily about "gay" but rather the acceptance of the perversion of the structure of a family unit.

There are core roles that a woman and a man play in the modeling and healthy development of a child. Two mom's don't model that nor do two dad's.

"Love and Care" does not empower and equip two women to raise a boy to be a man, nor does it empower and equip a two men to raise a girl to be a woman.

All the more reason not to attempt to tackle the subject with younger minds. The ability of a Gay or Lesbian couple to rear an opposite sexed child is a debatable topic (I haven't read enough to lean one way or the other,) but it is not the issue here.

I don't think they're trying to pervert the traditional family unit, just introduce alternative family units.

Would a single mother be persecuted in the same was a '2 moms' couple when it comes to rearing a little boy? What about a divorced/widowed father who's rearing his daughters into women? Would he come under the same scrutiny as a '2 dads' couple?

I think this leads back towards the acceptance/tolerance discussion from earlier in the thread. It doesn't make those alternative family units right or wrong, nor does it mean that you have to be kind to the thought of them, but you shouldn't be able to condemn them for simply being different.

Ellen C Perrin, MD: "The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way,"

Invalid Link Removed

It's from 2005 so their is probably a lot more data available today.
 
It not necessarily about "gay" but rather the acceptance of the perversion of the structure of a family unit.

To me, though, the true perversion of the family-unit is its literal destruction, whether through congenial break-up, or through legal divorce. To that end, new research is continually coming out that displays that LBGT couples are equally as committed as heterosexual ones; and, more importantly, that their reactions to, and conflict resolutions with, one another are as equally as healthy. From this [http://www.apa.org/releases/satisfaction0108.html] 2008 study:

Results showed that same-sex relationships were similar to those of opposite-sex couples in many ways. All had positive views of their relationships but those in the more committed relationships (gay and straight) resolved conflict better than the heterosexual dating couples. And lesbian couples worked together especially harmoniously during the laboratory tasks.

The notion that committed same-sex relationships are “atypical, psychologically immature, or malevolent contexts of development was not supported by our findings,” said lead author Glenn I. Roisman, PhD. “Compared with married individuals, committed gay males and lesbians were not less satisfied with their relationships.”

Furthermore, said Roisman, “Gay males and lesbians in this study were generally not different from their committed heterosexual counterparts on how well they interacted with one another, although some evidence emerged the lesbian couples were especially effective at resolving conflict.

And this:

The findings also showed that same-sex couples, regardless of civil union status, were more satisfied with their relationships compared to married heterosexual couples. Same-sex couples reported more positive feelings toward their partners and less conflict than heterosexual married couples, said the authors.

In my mind's eye, a family unit is not de facto heterosexual: a family unit is a healthy core of individuals sharing intimate relationships with one another; and so, a perversion of that occurs across the sexual strata, in my opinion.

"Love and Care" does not empower and equip two women to raise a boy to be a man, nor does it empower and equip a two men to raise a girl to be a woman.

Irrespective of the orientation of the relationship, I feel the key variable here is two: two individuals whom care for each other, not one ravaged by bitterness and divorce, are empowered to raise any gender of child. To that end, Jews [30%] and Conservative Christians [24%] get divorced more than any other respective religious group - almost double the divorce rate of Atheists and Agnostics [16%]. Should we continue with this exclusionary logic, and shun the discussion of Christian and Jew marriages, because they destroy the family unit [proportionately] more than any other group? Should we teach children that "Your one Mom, and one Dad, as long as they are Christian, will probably get divorced"? No, of course not. We should instead move forward with a sense of inclusionary logic, and redefine the family unit on the borders of a constantly-evolving social dynamic.

I try to understand your perspective prior to arguing with it, Brian, because I immensely respect you. And with that respect, I would say that in respects to relationship health and longevity, LBGTs are equally, or more so, committed to fulfilling those traits. My concern for a child is not whom plugs whose butt in their parents' relationship, but rather: how their parents treat each other, and the child. In that respect, and not just in my solitary opinion, the LBGT does quite fine.
 
To me, though, the true perversion of the family-unit is its literal destruction, whether through congenial break-up, or through legal divorce. To that end, new research is continually coming out that displays that LBGT couples are equally as committed as heterosexual ones; and, more importantly, that their reactions to, and conflict resolutions with, one another are as equally as healthy. From this [http://www.apa.org/releases/satisfaction0108.html] 2008 study:

I would say that the "destruction" is exactly what you speak of, but I don't see it as a perversion. I agree with B5150 on this; the roles of the parents are quite mixed and mangled. I don't doubt that there are plenty of homosexual couples that love their children, nor do I question their commitment, but this doesn't negate nature and our natural roles. Two men can't create a child, nor can two women, and I believe there is a reason for that.


In my mind's eye, a family unit is not de facto heterosexual: a family unit is a healthy core of individuals sharing intimate relationships with one another; and so, a perversion of that occurs across the sexual strata, in my opinion.

I don't know if you mean sexual orientation, or gender, but to make this clear, I don't think two heterosexual men or women (let's say two sisters living together, or two brothers) could raise a child quite appropriately either. You're still missing very important parental roles...I think I'm describing Full House here. :dunno: - But what I'm saying is that the sexual orientation is not the only factor.



Irrespective of the orientation of the relationship, I feel the key variable here is two: two individuals whom care for each other, not one ravaged by bitterness and divorce, are empowered to raise any gender of child. To that end, Jews [30%] and Conservative Christians [24%] get divorced more than any other respective religious group - almost double the divorce rate of Atheists and Agnostics [16%]. Should we continue with this exclusionary logic, and shun the discussion of Christian and Jew marriages, because they destroy the family unit [proportionately] more than any other group? Should we teach children that "Your one Mom, and one Dad, as long as they are Christian, will probably get divorced"? No, of course not. We should instead move forward with a sense of inclusionary logic, and redefine the family unit on the borders of a constantly-evolving social dynamic.
You have to be very careful with these statistics. I would really doubt that the majority of the conservative Christians you speak of with these divorce rates actually live their life in the Word, but rather consider themselves both Christians and conservatives. I know plenty of people who would call themselves that and aren't. I've found so many conflicting statistics on divorce rates that I hardly even pay attention anymore. I've just accepted that the divorce rate is far too high regardless of any particular group.
 
I don't know if you mean sexual orientation, or gender, but to make this clear, I don't think two heterosexual men or women (let's say two sisters living together, or two brothers) could raise a child quite appropriately either. You're still missing very important parental roles...I think I'm describing Full House here. :dunno: - But what I'm saying is that the sexual orientation is not the only factor.

Regardless of what Uncle Jesse said to Michelle, the research suggests that homosexual couples are capable of rearing children with the same success as heterosexual couples.
 
Regardless of what Uncle Jesse said to Michelle, the research suggests that homosexual couples are capable of rearing children with the same success as heterosexual couples.

I can't fully agree with this. How long are these studies conducted over? Not only have I read books stating the opposite (as well as for your argument), but I have reasons of my own to believe that this is just not the case.

Again, don't think I'm doubting their commitment or love for the child. I just really believe that this is the wrong way to raise a kid. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Sociological studies, and science in general, is so subjective, and you guys know that. For every article or paper stating one thing, you can find 3 others stating the opposite. Many scientists and researchers are biased to their own personal opinions, and it's extremely difficult to find an unbiased study on these sorts of matters. Not to mention all of the factors that are left out of studies, whether strategically or not.
 
We have intellectuals on one side and ideologists on the other. Some of us who recognize both are standing by watching the evolution of the genders of our species. The weak and passive of the genders, both male and female, are settling, conspiring and encouraging this evolution. They will one day wonder where are the men and women that we used to be. What has become of us?

Males and females both need to stand and resist this evolution before we have become a homogenous species.

Males who support this are diminishing their roles. They either have no idea of their purpose and roles as men or care not to embrace it in a true masculine manner.

Passivity and masculinity are mutually exclusive. You are either one or the other.
 
I can't fully agree with this. How long are these studies conducted over? Not only have I read books stating the opposite (as well as for your argument), but I have reasons of my own to believe that this is just not the case.

Since 1981. I am not interjecting my own opinions in to this, it's not my place to say. It merely is what it is.

Again, don't think I'm doubting their commitment or love for the child. I just really believe that this is the wrong way to raise a kid. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

What about single fathers or single mothers? Can they properly rear children without the other side of the spectrum created by the other parental unit?

Sociological studies, and science in general, is so subjective, and you guys know that. For every article or paper stating one thing, you can find 3 others stating the opposite. Many scientists and researchers are biased to their own personal opinions, and it's extremely difficult to find an unbiased study on these sorts of matters. Not to mention all of the factors that are left out of studies, whether strategically or not.

Perhaps. I'll have to dig a little deeper.
 
What about single fathers or single mothers? Can they properly rear children without the other side of the spectrum created by the other parental unit?

No, I don't believe they really can. I'm not really blaming them or saying they need to give the kid up, that would be ludicrous, but what I am saying is that the child will not properly develop the understanding of a female or male role of a family, nor will they understand their role in the world itself.

Let's say it's a single mom...Even if she knows the role and purpose of a man, she can only tell the child what that is. Who is going to SHOW the child?
 
We have intellectuals on one side and ideologists on the other. Some of us who recognize both are standing by watching the evolution of the genders of our species. The weak and passive of the genders, both male and female, are settling, conspiring and encouraging this evolution. They will one day wonder where are the men and women that we used to be. What has become of us?

Males and females both need to stand and resist this evolution before we have become a homogenous species.

Males who support this are diminishing their roles. They either have no idea of their purpose and roles as men or care not to embrace it in a true masculine manner.

Passivity and masculinity are mutually exclusive. You are either one or the other.

I agree with you 100% But that doesn't mean that we have the right to exclude homosexuals from child rearing. I'm sure there are plenty of heterosexual couples who are allowed to rear children but do a terrible job (w/o being bad enough to attract child services.)
 
I agree with you 100% But that doesn't mean that we have the right to exclude homosexuals from child rearing. I'm sure there are plenty of heterosexual couples who are allowed to rear children but do a terrible job (w/o being bad enough to attract child services.)

This is where the argument gets difficult. I don't doubt there are plenty of homosexual couples I would rather see raise children than heterosexual.

...I've never given much thought into this debate, so I'll have to consider it further.
 
Im not really seeing the need to teach it to anyone under HS... they have a hard enough time with regular relationships to throw a curveball at them. Although it would be funny to watch them try and figure it out... lmao

Honestly throw it into health class and be done with it. It's the right age group, honestly its such a huge part of our society (NOT culture). That most kids don't care, personally i love lesbians, but hey i have no issues with any gays, or their choice.. don't jump on me for saying choice, for Chrits's sake.

The point is that health class was a quarter long. this is maybe a week's worth of stuff to talk about... for HS students. Do you want a Pre-middle school student learning anything else about sex? No, proble solved. Either that or do it your ****in' selves and stop expecting the government to do it for you. (Not pointed toward anyone but lazy parents) :)
 
I would say that the "destruction" is exactly what you speak of, but I don't see it as a perversion. I agree with B5150 on this; the roles of the parents are quite mixed and mangled. I don't doubt that there are plenty of homosexual couples that love their children, nor do I question their commitment, but this doesn't negate nature and our natural roles. Two men can't create a child, nor can two women, and I believe there is a reason for that.

I appreciate and understand your biological viewpoint, but I see a chink or two in its armor; I would like to address those now. From my perspective, the vantage point you are espousing depends on most heterosexual couples, if not all heterosexual couples, combining to fulfill healthy [respective] gender roles for their children. Unfortunately, it has been well-established for some time that extra-familial role models are comprising a child's vision of femininity and masculinity; and so, one woman and one man no longer exclusively, or even primarily, form the gender role models in a child's life. While I appreciate the views you and B5150 have, they are arguments in-general attending to societal-wide issues, targeted at a specific group of individuals as particularly indicative of those traits. These are the issues I found in your perspective, as I am sure you have found issues in mine.

I don't know if you mean sexual orientation, or gender, but to make this clear, I don't think two heterosexual men or women (let's say two sisters living together, or two brothers) could raise a child quite appropriately either. You're still missing very important parental roles...I think I'm describing Full House here. :dunno: - But what I'm saying is that the sexual orientation is not the only factor.

I understand: by and large, you feel that two opposite-sex individuals in an pair-bonded situation are necessary for the proper development of a child. While I would say that is 'ideal' - whatever that means in such a subjective conversation - I would also counter that all the situations you mentioned above can be more than adequate; for reasons not the least of which being children supplementing their role-models with extra-familial sources.

You have to be very careful with these statistics. I would really doubt that the majority of the conservative Christians you speak of with these divorce rates actually live their life in the Word, but rather consider themselves both Christians and conservatives. I know plenty of people who would call themselves that and aren't. I've found so many conflicting statistics on divorce rates that I hardly even pay attention anymore. I've just accepted that the divorce rate is far too high regardless of any particular group.

In terms of statistical validity, these were US Census figures, so I feel they are methodologically sound, however; methodology is not what you are questioning here, and I recognize that. The issue of 'real Christians' is quite the contentious one: what objective criterion does one select to analyze and differentiate 'Christian A' from 'Christian B'? Do we privilege piousness over embodiment, denomination over aptitude, attendance over adherence? With all due respect, I feel being called a ****ing Canadian piece of trash, an arrogant prick, and being told my face will be smashed in all because I questioned the legitimacy of Christian-Conservatism is not very "Christian", do you?

And so, again, how do we say who is more or less Christian than another, as I am sure in other contexts you and bpmartyr are very pious. While this is certainly not the topic of discussion, I would say far more Atheists and Agnostics embody the characteristics I consider to be Christian - tolerance, acceptance, enlightenment, lack of judgment and so on - than do "Christians". At any rate, the statistics remain the same that Christians - I believe Evangelicals were the worst at 37% - are getting divorced at strange rates. If we are going to exclude things from the classroom we deem to be antithetical to the beneficial development of a child, we cannot be so intolerant and exclusionary in our process of selection - we either expose them to the good and the bad, or we censor it all. I feel the first is the better option.
 
I appreciate and understand your biological viewpoint, but I see a chink or two in its armor; I would like to address those now. From my perspective, the vantage point you are espousing depends on most heterosexual couples, if not all heterosexual couples, combining to fulfill healthy [respective] gender roles for their children. Unfortunately, it has been well-established for some time that extra-familial role models are comprising a child's vision of femininity and masculinity; and so, one woman and one man no longer exclusively, or even primarily, form the gender role models in a child's life. While I appreciate the views you and B5150 have, they are arguments in-general attending to societal-wide issues, targeted at a specific group of individuals as particularly indicative of those traits. These are the issues I found in your perspective, as I am sure you have found issues in mine.



I understand: by and large, you feel that two opposite-sex individuals in an pair-bonded situation are necessary for the proper development of a child. While I would say that is 'ideal' - whatever that means in such a subjective conversation - I would also counter that all the situations you mentioned above can be more than adequate; for reasons not the least of which being children supplementing their role-models with extra-familial sources.

Role models and extra-familial sources are well and good, but the children don't live in that environment most often. They usually see these people on occasion at best; however, I'm sure there are plenty of single parents that work to surround their children with solid role models, and in that case, yes, that's very helpful and I'm sure often times completely adequate.



In terms of statistical validity, these were US Census figures, so I feel they are methodologically sound, however; methodology is not what you are questioning here, and I recognize that. The issue of 'real Christians' is quite the contentious one: what objective criterion does one select to analyze and differentiate 'Christian A' from 'Christian B'? Do we privilege piousness over embodiment, denomination over aptitude, attendance over adherence?

I would say a true Christian is one who is saved, first of all, and second, lives their life in Christ, adhering to His word and Biblical scripture.

The people I say aren't true Christians are the ones that simply believe being a Christian means "being a good person."

And then obviously you've got wack-jobs out there that probably are Christians but give the Church a very bad name in how they practice and preach.

I'm sure you could jump from different congregations and the divorce rate would span that of the Rocky Mountains.


With all due respect, I feel being called a ****ing Canadian piece of trash, an arrogant prick, and being told my face will be smashed in all because I questioned the legitimacy of Christian-Conservatism is not very "Christian", do you?

True, my wording could have been different, but I was angry, and there is nothing wrong with that. You've pushed me over the edge numerous times in that same George Clooney-esque smug-cloud manner and I simply couldn't take it anymore.

You're right in that what I said shouldn't have been said, but I believe my anger was just.

You made the statement that it's simply because you disagree with me, but that's not it at all. AE and I disagree all the time, but I've never gotten pissed off at the guy.

This is a bodybuilding forum. You think you won't run into people with short fuses? - I'll admit, I can only hold my tongue for so long before I snap.

And so, again, how do we say who is more or less Christian than another, as I am sure in other contexts you and bpmartyr are very pious. While this is certainly not the topic of discussion, I would say far more Atheists and Agnostics embody the characteristics I consider to be Christian - tolerance, acceptance, enlightenment, lack of judgment and so on - than do "Christians". At any rate, the statistics remain the same that Christians - I believe Evangelicals were the worst at 37% - are getting divorced at strange rates. If we are going to exclude things from the classroom we deem to be antithetical to the beneficial development of a child, we cannot be so intolerant and exclusionary in our process of selection - we either expose them to the good and the bad, or we censor it all. I feel the first is the better option.

I have no problem agreeing with you on this...or at least saying they're often times no better, and I think it's mainly from misunderstanding scripture.

Brennan Manning said, "The single greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyles. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

If you don't totally understand where I sit on the issue of homosexuality and the Church, here it is...

I love them and welcome them into my church. I've sat with them in congregation before and treated them no differently than I treat my friends and other contemporaries around me. I wish that EVERY sinner, regardless of their sexual orientation, would join me in worship. Just as Jesus said, I believe He came to save the world, and not condemn it; however, this doesn't mean that certain lifestyles are okay. - Homosexuality is a sexual sin just as sexual relations outside of the marital union. I believe that before a homosexual is saved, and becomes a Christian, they must recognize that their lifestyle is in fact wrong, and reject it, just as I believe people who live heterosexual, sexually immoral lives must to. - It's one thing to struggle with a sin; to know it's wrong and seek help and guidance, and another to refuse the fact that it's wrong and continue in your ways.
 
Role models and extra-familial sources are well and good, but the children don't live in that environment most often. They usually see these people on occasion at best; however, I'm sure there are plenty of single parents that work to surround their children with solid role models, and in that case, yes, that's very helpful and I'm sure often times completely adequate.

Do they, though? Let us consider this logically. A child is awake for 14 hours a day on average: 8 of those are spent at school, by most estimates up to 5 are spent consuming media, leaving 3 hours for other activities. A parent, by the same token, is awake for 16 hours on average: [as average] 10 of those hours are spent at work, by most estimates 4-5 are spent on either work-at-home, or consuming media, leaving approximately 1 hour for other activities. I would counter it is the complete opposite: extra-familial role models have supplanted the parent-model as the primary source of gender-endearment; by and large, research supports this as well. As I say, these are societal-wide issues that are being targeted at homosexual individuals.

True, my wording could have been different, but I was angry, and there is nothing wrong with that. You've pushed me over the edge numerous times in that same George Clooney-esque smug-cloud manner and I simply couldn't take it anymore.

Again: that is your opinion. I am infuriated by the tone of much of what you say, but I refrain from personal insults because there is no need.

You're right in that what I said shouldn't have been said, but I believe my anger was just.

Fair enough.

You made the statement that it's simply because you disagree with me, but that's not it at all. AE and I disagree all the time, but I've never gotten pissed off at the guy.

And I am diametrically opposed to the viewpoints of CDB, Bobo, RobinKuwait and so on, but I have had several page long discussions with all of them that have not degenerated into them calling me a ****ing fascist piece of Canadian ****. Period. I think you feel your opinions deserve respect and admiration as they are, and I do not. I operate under the pretext that statements should be validated in one way or another, and not be entitled simply because they are statements made by another person. I believe you said, "not everybody is right".

If you don't totally understand where I sit on the issue of homosexuality and the Church, here it is...

I love them and welcome them into my church. I've sat with them in congregation before and treated them no differently than I treat my friends and other contemporaries around me. I wish that EVERY sinner, regardless of their sexual orientation, would join me in worship. Just as Jesus said, I believe He came to save the world, and not condemn it; however, this doesn't mean that certain lifestyles are okay. - Homosexuality is a sexual sin just as sexual relations outside of the marital union. I believe that before a homosexual is saved, and becomes a Christian, they must recognize that their lifestyle is in fact wrong, and reject it, just as I believe people who live heterosexual, sexually immoral lives must to. - It's one thing to struggle with a sin; to know it's wrong and seek help and guidance, and another to refuse the fact that it's wrong and continue in your ways.

This is fair enough, and verbatim the position of my parents and their church [Presbyterians]. From a logical standpoint, I have issues with it, but you are certainly entitled to your beliefs.
 
Hahahaha... man... This is fantastic... like my morning cup of joe.

Lemme wrap this up for you.

A) Public school sucks, so why burden such a crappy system more? To give someone a job at the tax payers expense... a sensitivity instructor? Bull!

B) I like how people scream to keep my religion out of your school, but you put your gay rights speech in, and BAM, people should sit idly by and just swallow all your bullshit?

C) Attacking radio talk shows is not a valid argument to have a debate, no matter what toast masters faction you have attended.

D) Word of the day toilet paper is such an awesome invention.

E) My **** don't stink.

F) Your **** does stink.

G) Moral standards are to be taught by the parents in general child rearing, placing that on the school is absurd, and I cannot even believe this is being discussed. Teach my kid English, Reading, Writing, Science, Math, and maybe even some technical skills, but stay the hell outta morality, that is when advocate teachers overstep their bounds.

I refer you back to F.

Adams
 
Last edited:
Blacks can exist on an island and bring future generations. Whites can, Asians can, hispanics can, etc.

Put a bunch of homos on an island, and they die off in 1 generation.

Not only is it against moral values and religious ones, Darwinism and the theory of evolution would see them as cancer to our species.

Actually that is incorrect. The persistence of the behavior, whatever it's source, is evidence that it is not harmful to our species and may confer some survival benefit. One possibility is in population control in large groups, allowing a sexual outlet without the danger of procreation could ease pressure on available food supplies. Either way, with regards to the comment about evolution, you're completely and totally wrong.
 
And I am diametrically opposed to the viewpoints of CDB, Bobo, RobinKuwait and so on, but I have had several page long discussions with all of them that have not degenerated into them calling me a ****ing fascist piece of Canadian ****. Period.

In all fairness I haven't touched the jaegermeister in a while, so I may have been remiss in my insults.
 
A) Public school sucks, so why burden such a crappy system more? To give someone a job at the tax payers expense... a sensitivity instructor? Bull!

They are terrible, but a few sentences like, "It is okay to be gay" is not going to break the system. As well, parents are becoming more-and-more terrible themselves, so it is really a toss-up. I agree, though, that parents need to be the primary role model in every circumstance, not just this one. Teaching complex issues in public schools can be a disaster, but, as I said, a few sentences on tolerance will not be that straw.

B) I like how people scream to keep my religion out of your school, but you put your gay rights speech in, and BAM, people should sit idly by and just swallow all your bullshit?

I would dislike a gay teacher telling his/her students to be gay, just the same as I would dislike a Christian/Muslim/Jew teacher telling his/her students to be religious; and, in my opinion, that is a pretty fair perspective. I think it would be important to let them know they are all acceptable lifestyles, though. Children are so impressionable that pushing a moral agenda on them is unacceptable. If it is a private school: go nuts; you pay to be selective in their education.

C) Attacking radio talk shows is not a valid argument to have a debate, no matter what toast masters faction you have attended.

This is directed at me, right? I have never been to a toast master's faction, but when a person's points are directly lifted from talk radio, bringing that up seems valid to me - just as valid as stating all my points are from prefabricated boxes from "liberal professors". It goes both ways, Adams.

D) Word of the day toilet paper is such an awesome invention.

Word.

E) My **** don't stink.

Yes.

F) Your **** does stink.

No.

G) Moral standards are to be taught by the parents in general child rearing, placing that on the school is absurd, and I cannot even believe this is being discussed. Teach my kid English, Reading, Writing, Science, Math, and maybe even some technical skills, but stay the hell outta morality, that is when advocate teachers overstep their bounds.

Totally agree. Again, nobody is suggesting that schools should supplant the parent's role, merely that to a certain degree they have [mostly the kids at the school, though]. So, while they are there, mentioning not to hate/beat gay people because they are gay seems okay to me. What is the big deal here?
 
Back
Top